Author Topic: Group and Brigade Rivalries (Read 22998 times)

The Assistant · « **on:** March 16, 2007, 05:07:54 PM »

Can some one explain to me why when we are all in the same service that there is so much brigade and group rivalry that they respond not just once or twice but constantly into others response areas without the courtesy of giving other briagdes a "call". I know of at least three instances in the last two days which are prime examples of brigades and groups responding well outside their normal areas (and not for specialist taskings either like road crash or tanker) but just a normal response. Quiet frankly I find this whole thing appauling that such rivalries get in the way of us offering a "proper" service that we all seem to think we belong to. We all blame "the establishment" for a lowering in morale of fire fighters, but I think that we need to look closer to home for a lowering of morale quiet frankly its a kick in the guts.

Camo · « **Reply #1 on:** March 16, 2007, 05:15:02 PM »

We havent had that problem as such but a few groups around here will respond every truck in their group before responding neighbouring groups appliances even though they maybe closer.

A few weeks ago there was an incident at the Auspine mill in Tarpeena. Tarpeena, Pleasant Park & Wandilo were called but not Nangwarry who is only 7km from Tarpeena and closer then the rest. Compton was then called for night shift who are further away again.

Am i missing something or are we not all on the same team!

5271rescue · « **Reply #2 on:** March 17, 2007, 09:12:37 AM »

BRING ON CAD..... we dont have that problem,as we have a large area to cover and support we always call the next group and that is also extended to CFA who we have a great working relationship with....If you ask me if you go into another brigade/group area you should give them a call,I bet you would not like it if they came into your area...

Mel · « **Reply #3 on:** March 17, 2007, 09:49:02 AM »

hey, our brigade has been turned out for a couple of calls out side their area, i only know about the one cause i went. it was about 2.30 in the morn and we got paged for a fire at hackham how ever it turned out on the expressway at renella but were advised to go up a bike track near ohalleren hill. when the officer iquired if morphett or a closer brigade had been responded, im not sure of the response but he got the distinct impression the person on the other end took an immediate dislike to him. we eventually got there and found chrities mfs had put it out, but every one had the feeling ohaleron would have been closer. when back at the station we looked at it, we are dual response whith morphett any way and defaulted just befor we got the truck out, but no other brigade was called out. so dont just put the blame on the brigades,the captain came down bout 4 to fill out the 2nd inccident form of being called out as initial response to some were not in our area. also at that time in the morn if we had phoned the another brigade to say we were going in there area no one would have been there. we did the next best thing and told SHQ we were not the closest brigade and asked if morphett had been responded

Blue · « **Reply #4 on:** March 17, 2007, 11:27:37 AM »

Don't forget that the group is sometimes aware of things that we may not be and direct their resources accordingly - like an appliance offline or something.

If we imagine a 'CFS' response to an incident, you get blinkered and consider which is the closest brigade, and their capacity given the specialist equipment they have.

I'd hope tat people are thinking 'emergency service' response - immediately the blinkers are down and we're considering MFS, CFA, forest company resources, private units, SAPOL, SAAS, SASES (and the list goes on!). Much better way to frame an incident.

Alan (Big Al) · « **Reply #5 on:** March 17, 2007, 02:30:52 PM »

I think this is a problem that needs to be looked at, for instatnce the last 3 willunga fires that have had strike teams, Mt compass just up the road and probably 3rd closest station was sitting there for hours and was only called when the Mundoo strike team was called in now that is filtered silly.

Blue · « **Reply #6 on:** March 17, 2007, 08:27:44 PM »

Isn't it also about not committing all of your local resources to one job? What if something else happens in the area? Then you've got no appliances free to respond to it.

I'm keenly aware of group/brigade rivalry, but many decisions about resource allocation take intelligence (as in info, not nous) into account that is not always obvious from brigade level - it's not only about sending your closest appliance, it's also about strategically responding crews so as not to leave a key asset unprotected should something else crop up.

Camo · « **Reply #7 on:** March 17, 2007, 11:31:58 PM »

When there is a big job going down is there such thing as a logical decision in the first 30 mins?

I can understand about not putting all your eggs in one basket but really the 5 closest resources should be responded? At the worst you would have to divert crews if there was another incident.

When it comes to strike teams etc then skipping groups/brigades it all makes sense.

mack · « **Reply #8 on:** March 17, 2007, 11:33:24 PM »

forget what other people are doing... ya cant help jackasses from stuffing decisions they somehow feel qualified to make... there the ones that will be liable in the end.

5271rescue · « **Reply #9 on:** March 18, 2007, 07:50:34 AM »

I would have to agree the closet brigade should be sent and then you do COQ to fill in these empty stations how hard is that?? But some groups don't do that and would rather leave them empty or get private units that already in some area's to be on stand by in case anything else happens....The good thing about CAD is that it will send/page the closet resource but this can be overridden by SHQ or the group.

Blue · « **Reply #10 on:** March 18, 2007, 02:26:49 PM »

Ah, didn't realise we had secret closet brigades, that's ok then

I don't know if I'd be all that thrilled about sitting around doing change of quarters to a rural CFS brigade that has not many calls a year when I know full well they are out there doing the hard yards at a going job... And equally as a volunteer I don't want to be pulled off the fireline to respond to a no carrier alarm (as a cringe-worthy 'just in case' example) in our area?

JMO (oops, those filtered acronyms again - 'Just My Opinion'). I'd rather be skipped completely and go about my business until the pager goes off for another job.

SA Firey · « **Reply #11 on:** March 19, 2007, 02:26:38 AM »

Quote from: Mel on March 17, 2007, 09:49:02 AM

hey, our brigade has been turned out for a couple of calls outside their area, I only know about the one cause I went. it was about 2.30 in the morn and we got paged for a fire at hackham west,however it turned out on the expressway at Reynella but were advised to go up a bike track near O'Halloran Hill. when the officer inquired if morphett or a closer brigade had been responded, im not sure of the response but he got the distinct impression the person on the other end took an immediate dislike to him. we eventually got there and found chrities mfs had put it out, but every one had the feeling O'Halloran Hill would have been closer. when back at the station we looked at it, we are dual response whith morphett any way and defaulted just before we got the truck out, but no other brigade was called out. so dont just put the blame on the brigades,the captain came down about 4 to fill out the 2nd incident form of being called out as initial response to some were not in our area. also at that time in the morn if we had phoned the another brigade to say we were going in there area no one would have been there. we did the next best thing and told SHQ we were not the closest brigade and asked if morphett had been responded

Seaford was originally turned out with Christies to Grass Fire,Southern Expressway Hackham West 431,8334 which is why you got the call.
On going mobile MFS Comms advised 431 that it was 500m north of Young St,Reynella.
O'Halloran Hill were not dispatched as the expressway was city bound,its quicker for Christie Downs to attend.As you were already mobile they did'nt bother to respond another brigade.

Pipster · « **Reply #12 on:** March 19, 2007, 09:38:28 AM »

Quote from: Blue on March 18, 2007, 02:26:49 PM

I'd rather be skipped completely and go about my business until the pager goes off for another job.

So you go about your business, blissfully unaware, and then you see your next door brigade, their next door brigade, and their next door brigade, going screaming past, lights and sirens to a fire, and you start to think "Hey, how come we weren't called, we're closer then them...."

In my experience, it is rare that a brigade is deliberately not responded ' eg "We won't call Hicksville brigade because we don't like them"

In recent calls outs, there seem to be two reasons why the nearest brigade is not called:

One is in the chaos of a large & escalating call, the OIC from the fire ground calls up and says "Respond brigades X, Y, Z " But, somewhere between that request being made, and a pager message being sent out, in the chaos, confusion etc, things get lost, and only brigades X & Y get called, even though brigade Z is really the next closest brigade.

The second reason that nearest brigade is not called is not necessarily a deliberate not calling of a brigade, but a mindset.

Again, we have a call to a fire, but no appliances are there yet. Everyone can see the smoke. (and not just "smoke in area") There have been multiple calls from the public reporting the fire. It's a fire ban day.

A Group Duty Officer (GDO) responds, and take control of the situation, and decides to call more resources, even though we have several others on the way. So the GDO calls the first brigades that pop into his / her head - which just happen to be brigades from within his / her own group, or brigades that work closely with that Group...and so brigades from the other side of the area are being responded, while the next nearest brigade, which is in another Group, is not responded......

Some may suggest that SACAD will solve this problem, it may assist, but I don't think it will entirely fix the problem......

Perhaps abolishing Groups might change things....

Pip

Camo · « **Reply #13 on:** March 19, 2007, 09:41:22 AM »

Perhaps abolishing Groups might change things.

This was rumour was making the rounds about a year ago. Not entirely a stupid idea.

Broadside · « **Reply #14 on:** March 19, 2007, 03:10:00 PM »

Having been involved at the last fire a willunga I can say that within a short time most of the Kyeema group were committed. I believe that only 2 or 3 appliances were not used. After the initial group response the rest of the brigades were responded by Region 1. The group officer asked for 3 strike teams One consisting of 14's. The decision was up to region as to who was sent. The 1st brigades called were Willunga, Aldinga Beach and Range-Hope forrest. Then it was McLaren Vale, Sellicks and Yundi. I think that only McLaren Vale and Aldinga had anything left at station. By looking at a map Mt Compass is as faraway from the fire as the last responded brigades from kyeema group.

bittenyakka · « **Reply #15 on:** March 19, 2007, 06:24:23 PM »

Look all i can say is that when your brigade doesn't get called to something that is defiantly closer to you than the attending brigade or brigades is that IT SUCKS and shouldn't happen.

TillerMan · « **Reply #16 on:** March 20, 2007, 10:51:25 AM »

For info also, if you are responded into MFS area and you default then MFS will not send another brigade because you are only a BONUS to the MFS response due to EMA boundaries. The only time they will send a default brigade is if you are specifically asked for or if MFS are short of appliances and you are actually replacing an MFS appliance.

The Assistant · « **Reply #17 on:** March 20, 2007, 07:52:09 PM »

I think some of you have completely missed the point, I was talking about brigades not being responded to INCIDENTS in their OWN brigade response areas. But some of you have obviously experienced this others have not, the rumour is that the 30 MFS responded brigades will be moving to SACAD in a months time and I find it difficult to understand how SACAD is going to fix the problems when there has been little or no consultation in terms of areas and things like who we think would be the closest appliance at certain times of the day, I mean lets be honest the people that know our response areas best are US. I will believe that SACAD has fixed our problems when I see it.

5271rescue · « **Reply #18 on:** March 20, 2007, 08:25:20 PM »

It does happy and you have to wounder why?

?

bittenyakka · « **Reply #19 on:** March 20, 2007, 09:27:08 PM »

I thought SACAD was all GPS and computer run so it doesn't actauly need any input other that topography roads and addresses.

That point of using GPS on trucks was to make closest appliance goes no matter where the incident is. so Salisbury 321 could be in glenelg and if the grand went up they would be responded solely because their truck is there. just my 2c

Pipster · « **Reply #20 on:** March 20, 2007, 09:56:31 PM »

Eh...no.

For SACAD to work as efficiently as possible, it requires large amounts of data input, which, at least on info provided so far, which may include things like local landmarks, property names, RAPID Numbers, GPS coordinates, or any other piece of info that might be helpful in identifying locations......

The more input at a local level, the more accurate & useful the data can be.

And, if each brigade / Group has what it considers to be its area, come up with their data, and the adjoining brigade / Group does the same, then you may end up with areas being claimed by two Groups (or two services). It'll then be up to someone higher up the chain to sort these sorts of issues out........

I fear that SACAD has been sold as a fix to all problems... but I can't see it being able to fix everything..... (A bit like the GRN radios, but we won't go there!! )

How well SACAD will work remains to be seen........

Pip

Evac · « **Reply #21 on:** March 21, 2007, 08:54:57 AM »

SACAD should bring an end to this brigade/group rivalry as "Boundries" or "Response areas" will be purely for admin purpose.. i.e who completes the primary report.

ltdan · « **Reply #22 on:** March 21, 2007, 12:41:42 PM »

"Pip" and "The Assistant" you are right.

It does work on data entry, but the problem is still going to exist of incorrect information given at the time of the call.

Not all people what ring up and report an incident are from the local area therefore, have a good possibility in making mistakes of roads they are on, suburbs they are in etc, etc, etc.

The problem about response zone in certain areas can be fixed quite easy by making a dual response crossover zone as some brigades have already done this with SAMFS-BOMS.

For example some hills groups within region 1.

Pipster · « **Reply #23 on:** March 22, 2007, 05:09:53 PM »

And that is exactly why we still need to have local input...and not just through a computer program....

But I'm not sure if that is in the Grand Plan or not ........

Pip

5271rescue · « **Reply #24 on:** March 22, 2007, 07:16:43 PM »

Look SACAD is only as good as the information that will need to be collected by each brigade / group and hope that those up the ladder load it into the computer correctly..Having said that and with SACAD being the same as VICFIRE cad I strongly enforce all members to have a input..Why well Our nearest CFA brigade have had a number of serious MVA'S under the old system Naracoorte would be paged as RCR brigade. However when they cut over to the new system it would not recognise CFS/NSWFB/RFS rescue/hazmat/CABA brigade's. I was able to get a friend to follow up who is a CFA volunteer but also works for VICFIRE and he was able to point out this problem to those at the top. They are still not sure how this problem came about and are still looking into it..... So make sure you all have a say and provide all the correct information...

Author Topic: Group and Brigade Rivalries (Read 22998 times)

ltdan