Author Topic: Lights & Sirens driving  (Read 18499 times)

Offline mack

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 570
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Lights & Sirens driving
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2007, 05:33:16 PM »
Quote
as i was not in the truck i do not no the full facts however from media relesses and press confrences it was mentioned that there was a stop or a stop about to be placed on the crew


unfortunately your information is incorrect. if there was indeed a stop on the incident  or a stop about to be placed... then why was oakbank/balhannah responded in murray bridge's place on the run to keep the appropriate resources goign?


Offline Mike

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,045
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Lights & Sirens driving
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2007, 05:44:38 PM »
Lets get back to the topic proper. If the MB incident is to be discussed, keep it to the facts only - and post in the relevant thread

http://www.safirefighter.com/boards/index.php?topic=443.0

Cheers

sesroadcrashrescue

  • Guest
Re: Lights & Sirens driving
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2007, 06:10:13 PM »
i am only going on the information that i have read and heard i was not there i was not involved in the incident i wish all the persons involed well with any injurys sustained i also hope that with this incident that they well stay with the CFS i am only going on what i know as i was not involved 

Offline RescueHazmat

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,174
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Lights & Sirens driving
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2007, 11:35:49 PM »
Well if you don't know, and are only going on "hearsay", then don't comment..!

Thats how the rumour mill gets cranking and sheit flinging starts..


-You have been told by another forum member that knows, that the information you are going on, is incorrect. - End of story.

Offline CFS_Firey

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,250
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Lights & Sirens driving
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2007, 12:14:56 AM »
Back to the original subject of the topic...  I believe (and people can feel free to correct me) that there is no rule saying that emergency vehicles must respond to an incidents with lights and/or sirens going. 

If you try to get to the incident quickly - that's enough, and you're not going to get in any trouble, and you won't have to justify your reasoning.  However if you travel lights and sirens to something that isn't a life threat, and something goes wrong - you CAN get in trouble.

Would others agree?

Offline Zippy

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,540
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Lights & Sirens driving
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2007, 12:23:56 AM »
you need to justify why they were used if something bad happens.

Offline Pipster

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,269
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Lights & Sirens driving
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2007, 01:09:17 AM »
Back to the original subject of the topic...  I believe (and people can feel free to correct me) that there is no rule saying that emergency vehicles must respond to an incidents with lights and/or sirens going. 

If you try to get to the incident quickly - that's enough, and you're not going to get in any trouble, and you won't have to justify your reasoning.  However if you travel lights and sirens to something that isn't a life threat, and something goes wrong - you CAN get in trouble.

Would others agree?

The only time an Emergency vehicle is required to use lights and / or sirens, (under the Australian Road Rules) is when the vehicle is breaking the road rules...then to be protected under the ARR, you must have lights and / or sirens on...if you don't break the road rules, there is no requirement under the Road Traffic Act (which the Australian road rules come under), to use them...

Pip
There are three types of people in the world.  Those that watch things happen, those who make things happen, and those who wonder what happened.

Offline Alan J

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 516
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Certified Flamin' Nuisance
    • View Profile
Re: Lights & Sirens driving
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2007, 01:05:08 AM »
The only time an Emergency vehicle is required to use lights and / or sirens, (under the Australian Road Rules) is when the vehicle is breaking the road rules...then to be protected under the ARR, you must have lights and / or sirens on...if you don't break the road rules, there is no requirement under the Road Traffic Act (which the Australian road rules come under), to use them...

G'day Pip
Nit picking perhaps, but I'm not comfortable with the word "protected" - if you make an error of judgement under L&S, you are not "protected" from prosecution.   A better way of putting it perhaps, might be "to claim your exemption from normal road rules, you must have lights and/or siren on..."
cheers
Alan J.
Cherry Gdns CFS

Data isn't information.  Information isn't knowledge. 
Knowledge isn't wisdom.

Offline bajdas

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,745
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Lights & Sirens driving
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2007, 09:35:57 AM »
Despite all of the decision makers & chain of command, the ultimate responsibility is the driver who switched the lights/sirens off. I have no issue with that...

But who wears the responsibility for making the decision to switch the lights/sirens on ?

From what I have read above, it can include 'call taker/dispatch', 'regional/group officer', 'brigade management', 'OIC of vehicle' & 'driver of vehicle'. Seems confusing to myself.

Ultimately all decisions will rest with Chief Officer, but in a practical sense where does the responsibility for the decision lie ?

My guess is that with the first responders it is the brigade management transferred to OIC in vehicle. With second responders it would be with incident OIC.

Am I correct ?

** Within SES, I understand the ruling is Unit OIC on duty (Unit Duty Officer on behalf of Unit Manager) issues the incident priorities.
They have the most information on the incident & can overide dispatch priorities if needed. This can include updated information from victim, crew responding, regional management, sitreps or other agencies.
If the vehicle OIC or driver wants to switch light/sirens on, they then request permission via radio. Unless it is for the safety of the people within the vehicle.
A driver can refuse to switch them on for vehicle & crew safety.
Andrew Macmichael
lives at Pt Noarlunga South.

My personal opinion only.

Offline RescueHazmat

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,174
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Lights & Sirens driving
« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2007, 10:34:06 AM »
The driver will always be responsible for what happens on the day.. The buck will stop, firmly and abruptly in most cases, with them!

Offline Pipster

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,269
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Lights & Sirens driving
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2007, 12:48:54 AM »
The only time an Emergency vehicle is required to use lights and / or sirens, (under the Australian Road Rules) is when the vehicle is breaking the road rules...then to be protected under the ARR, you must have lights and / or sirens on...if you don't break the road rules, there is no requirement under the Road Traffic Act (which the Australian road rules come under), to use them...

G'day Pip
Nit picking perhaps, but I'm not comfortable with the word "protected" - if you make an error of judgement under L&S, you are not "protected" from prosecution.   A better way of putting it perhaps, might be "to claim your exemption from normal road rules, you must have lights and/or siren on..."
cheers


To clarify, when I say "protected" I mean you don't get a fine for being snapped by a red light camera, driving on the wrong side of the of the road etc.....of course, if something goes wrong you can still be charged with things like driving without due care etc etc - and the emergency driver has to show they were acting with appropriately, and with due care & attention (even if they were on the wrong side of the road!!)

Pip
There are three types of people in the world.  Those that watch things happen, those who make things happen, and those who wonder what happened.

Offline Stefan KIRKMOE

  • Forum Senior Firefighter
  • ***
  • Posts: 78
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Lights & Sirens driving
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2007, 06:03:31 PM »
So for a police officer to drive their vehicles.... a commodore sedan you need to do two weeks of intensive driver training I believe but in the CFS / SES you can turn up and drive a 12 ton truck lights and sirens purely because you have your license??? Anyone else find this a bit odd.....

Offline littlejohn

  • Forum Senior Firefighter
  • ***
  • Posts: 158
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Lights & Sirens driving
« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2007, 06:41:58 PM »
So for a police officer to drive their vehicles.... a commodore sedan you need to do two weeks of intensive driver training I believe but in the CFS / SES you can turn up and drive a 12 ton truck lights and sirens purely because you have your license??? Anyone else find this a bit odd.....

Yes.

Offline RescueHazmat

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,174
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Lights & Sirens driving
« Reply #38 on: August 27, 2007, 08:13:42 PM »
So for a police officer to drive their vehicles.... a commodore sedan you need to do two weeks of intensive driver training I believe but in the CFS / SES you can turn up and drive a 12 ton truck lights and sirens purely because you have your license??? Anyone else find this a bit odd.....

Of course.. - But does it stop anyone??- Including those that find it odd? .. Of course not!


Offline littlejohn

  • Forum Senior Firefighter
  • ***
  • Posts: 158
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Lights & Sirens driving
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2007, 09:03:44 PM »
So for a police officer to drive their vehicles.... a commodore sedan you need to do two weeks of intensive driver training I believe but in the CFS / SES you can turn up and drive a 12 ton truck lights and sirens purely because you have your license??? Anyone else find this a bit odd.....

Of course.. - But does it stop anyone??- Including those that find it odd? .. Of course not!



I find it odd, & I drive, but what alternative is there?

Certainly get the present driver training done, & get as much experience as possible. Any other suggestions??

Knackers

  • Guest
Re: Lights & Sirens driving
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2007, 01:17:18 AM »
SA Road Rules in relation to the topic: (sorry for length)


110AAAA—Certain provisions not to apply to drivers of emergency vehicles

(1) Sections 44B, 45A, 82, 83 and 110 do not apply to the driver of an emergency vehicle
if—
(a) in the circumstances—
(i) the driver is taking reasonable care; and
(ii) it is reasonable that the provision should not apply; and
(b) if the vehicle is a motor vehicle that is moving—the vehicle is displaying a
blue or red flashing light or sounding an alarm.

(2) Subsection (1)(b) does not apply to a vehicle used by a police officer if, in the
circumstances, it is reasonable—
(a) not to display the light or sound the alarm; or
(b) for the vehicle not to be fitted or equipped with a blue or red flashing light or
an alarm.

(3) In this section—
emergency vehicle means a vehicle used by—
(a) a police officer; or
(b) a person who is an emergency worker as defined by the regulations for the
purposes of this section.


--

44B—Misuse of motor vehicle
(1) For the purposes of this section, a person misuses a motor vehicle if the person—
(a) drives a motor vehicle, in a public place, in a race between vehicles, a vehicle
speed trial, a vehicle pursuit or any competitive trial to test drivers' skills or
vehicles; or
(b) operates a motor vehicle in a public place so as to produce sustained wheel
spin; or
(c) drives a motor vehicle in a public place so as to cause engine or tyre noise, or
both, that is likely to disturb persons residing or working in the vicinity; or
(d) drives a motor vehicle onto an area of park or garden (whether public or
private) or a road related area so as to break up the ground surface or cause
other damage.
(2) However, conduct of a type described in subsection (1) does not constitute misuse of a
motor vehicle if it occurs in a place with the consent of the owner or occupier of the
place or the person who has the care, control and management of the place.
(3) A person who misuses a motor vehicle is guilty of an offence.
(4) A person who promotes or organises an event involving the misuse of a motor vehicle,
knowing that it will involve the misuse of a motor vehicle, is guilty of an offence.
(5) Where a court convicts a person of an offence against this section, the court must, if
satisfied that the offending caused damage to, or the destruction of, any property or
damage to an area of park or garden or a road related area, order the convicted person
to pay to the owner of the property, or the owner, occupier or person who has the care,
control and management of the area, such compensation as the court thinks fit.

---

45A—Excessive speed
(1) A person who drives a vehicle at a speed exceeding, by 45 kilometres an hour or
more, a speed limit that applies under this Act or the Motor Vehicles Act 1959 is guilty
of an offence.

---

82—Speed limit while passing school bus
(1) A person must not drive a vehicle at a greater speed than 25 kilometres per hour while
passing a school bus that has stopped on a road apparently for the purpose of
permitting children to board or alight.
(2) In this section—
school bus means a bus that displays the warning signs and devices required by the
vehicle standards for buses used mainly for carrying children.
83—Speed while passing emergency vehicle with flashing lights
(1) A person must, while passing an emergency vehicle that has stopped on a road and is
displaying a flashing blue or red light (whether or not it is also displaying other
lights)—
(a) drive at a speed no greater than 40 kilometres per hour; or
(b) if a lesser speed is required in the circumstances to avoid endangering any
person—drive at that lesser speed.
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply if the person is driving on a road that is divided by a
median strip and the emergency vehicle is on the other side of the road beyond the
median strip.
(3) In this section—
emergency vehicle means a vehicle used by—
(a) a police officer; or
(b) a person who is an emergency worker as defined by the regulations for the
purposes of this section.

---

110—Driving on sealed surface
A person driving a vehicle on a road which has portion of its surface sealed with
bitumen, cement or other sealing substance must, whenever it is reasonably
practicable to do so, keep the whole of the vehicle on the sealed portion of the surface.

---

Note that you can still be charged with driving without due care & driving in a manner dangerous. So regardless you have to justify your actions and speed etc.

I think SAAS send out a please explain form if you get done at over 40km/h and it is reviewed by a judge/magistrate who decideds what action (if req) will be taken.
Also I think anything over 20km/h services get sent a please explain (or need to have appropriate data to justify the response, so case number and response category etc I guess)

Offline Darius

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 668
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Lights & Sirens driving
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2007, 09:12:49 AM »
COSO 7 and 8 cover it all

Offline Alan (Big Al)

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,609
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • CRUMPETS
    • View Profile
Re: Lights & Sirens driving
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2007, 09:49:27 AM »
So it's fine to do wheelies in a paddock as long as lights and or sirens are operating. :lol:
Lt. Goolwa CFS

Offline chook

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,191
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Lights & Sirens driving
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2007, 10:06:34 AM »
Thats ok then :wink:
Ken
just another retard!

Offline SA Firey

  • Forum Group Officer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,967
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Lights & Sirens driving
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2007, 11:16:36 AM »
At the end of the day it is the emergency vehicle driver who the coroner will be gunning for if you do the wrong thing.

Its that time to bring out the "Getting there safely" and "It Will Never Happen To Us DVD" to remind the drivers of their responsibilities when driving a fire appliance. :-D
Images are copyright