cfs volunteers

[AJ]

As I said read the letter then criticise it. Doing so in the reverse doesnt render you with much credibility.

1) From my photo copy of the letter I was given by our DGO the information about black tuesday just says that it has been a long and hard process and that we should thank everyone for their efforts. - Hardly operational and something that I would expect the govt or the cfs hierachy to be doing... so not inappropriate at all.

2) The review of the legislation i would think is a matter for the Minister, given that the legislation itself says that the minister has to do it.

3)I agree with you that lots of things should be dealt with through the chain of command - but what do you do when you do that and nothing happens? Isnt it a good thing that the person ultimately responsible - eg the Minister has said that you can also contact them? As CFS Members we dont just have a responsibility to our organisation we have a responsibility to the community!!

I think too many times people get caught up in the 'save the cfs' mentality. Rather than do what is best for the community.

Pip i think that perhaps you are the one who prone to the personal attacks and prone to not listening.  You accuse me of not being grown up, and yet at least i inform myself before i make comment on things. You made comment on something you didnt read. You misread what someone posted (a good post by them) and you launched into an attack on the Minister based on your misinterpreted view. I think for whatever reasons (political/personal) you dont like the Minister and you tried to find a reason to launch an attack.

I'll bag the Minister, the CFS or the VFBA if I think they are not doing the right thing. But I also think its a good idea to give credit where it is due. I am not blinded by an agenda like some people. That agenda is what is going to kill the CFS, not the Govt or the MFS or the CFS Management.

I for one am happy whenever those at the top take the time to contact those of us on the ground. And if they give us a mechanism to communicate back I think it is even better.

The letter talked about the appointment of David Place, Volunteer recognition, the coronial inquest and the review of the Act - Please Pip can you Explain how this is operational??? You really are very petty. When you dont get toild things you whinge and when  you do you whinge. Why cant you just be happy that for once someone is listening to us and communicating with us. There was NOTING operational in the letter. You might want to read a copy before you launch into your usual negative rubbish.

Why are we getting all this in a letter from the Minister?  Surely, much of the info you allude to is Operational stuff, which the Minister should not be fiddling in on a daily basis......

Pip

I was going on the information posted by someone else...which alluded to things that I would see as Operational.

As yet, I have not received a copy of the letter - even though I am in a position, that according to others, was meant to receive this letter.   

As far as I can see, info about the "Black Tuesday" Coronial will impact on the Operational side of things....and shouldn't be in the direct realm of a Minister (ever heard of separation of powers?)

A review of the Act can also impact greatly on Operational areas, depending upon what direction the review heads.  However, this may actually be something the Minister should actually be involved with....but I suspect there are other issues that are better dealt with through an Operational chain of command.

I am sorry that you feel it necessary to bag others on this forum for their views, if they differ from your own - rather than being able to discuss the differences in a sensible grown up way.

Pip

[bittenyakka]

could we possibly be talking about 2 diffrent letters?

Pip is referring to an earlier comment about the minister doing something that relates to operational reasons which she shouldn't do as she has employed people like CFS CO etc to do that. 

How about you PM or post this letter to some of us?

[Pipster]

As I said - I have not yet received a copy of the letter (which, according to others, the position I am in,  should be receiving the letter).

I have not criticised the contents of the letter - only that letters are being sent out by people who perhaps are not really the people who should be sending out the letters!

There are also many things going on behind the scenes that perhaps you are unaware of. 

Some of the issues alluded to here by others appear from their post as as Operational Issues - something I believe Governments should not be fiddling in.  If they are not Operational, then it might be appropriate for the Minister to send out a letter.       

My posts on this issue relate to the appropriateness of the sending of the letter, not the contents of it.

Pip

[chook]

Sorry Pip, but the minister is ultimately responsible for us - not as individuals but as members of the emergency services.
Like it or not when we put the uniform on we are "employed" by the emergency services under the Fire & Emergency Services Act. It doesn't matter whether you are a full time in the service, Part time,Retained MFS or a vollie in CFS/SES. The minister is answerable to the Parliament, which in turn is answerable to the people. It is entirely appropriate for her to communicate with whoever she chooses and to make comments on whatever she feels like - thats democracy. I'm curious about one of your comments though,"There are also many things going on behind the scenes that perhaps you are unaware of.". Our Association makes similar comments - What does that mean exactly?
As I have said previously I'm sorry if you read "operational issues" in any of my posts. I have reread my previous posts and can't see any reference to how you guys go about fighting fires, doing rescues, fire management or any of the other operational things you do.
What I have read (repeatedly)though is times are a changin, there is a fantastic opportunity to help with the change and make the services fit the 21 century and continue being in a service to be proud of. But as was said by someone in a previous post - you must know exactly what you want!
What is good for urban/ semi rural brigades(units) may not be suitable for rural/outback brigades/ units. We have this conversation with our urban cousins on a regular basis. Anyway I think I've said enough on this subject, because at the end of the day we will end up doing what the other two services want us to do (it doesn't help being the runt of the litter . cheers chook

[AJ]

I totally agree re the comment about 'things that go on behind the scenes that you might not be aware of'

what are these things? please tell us? or is this info only for the in crowd?  would you rather just allude to them because you dont have to back up your claims with FACTS.

What are these things. Have the courage to make them known and back them up with facts. and be prepared to PROVE THEM.

All this 'he said, she said' rubbish really hurts us. It causes mistrust and a lack of confidence in the service from memebrs and causes the community to think that volunteers cant do the job.

I think it is entirely proper for the Minister to write to volunteers and to tell them what the Government is doing.

I think Pip has a much broader definition of operational than is actually contained in the legislation. Pip I suggest you read it. Then you will realise that anyting outside of of how the water is put on the fire is the business of SAFECOM/Minister and they do have a right to comment on it.

As for your claims of 'fiddling' in things. what are they? or are you just angry that its other people who are making the decisions and not YOU. There again proof that you are more concerned with your own empire of power, protecting and building an organisation rather than protecting the community. Pip your priorities are all backwards. Your so transperent.

There will always be an element in our organisations who are more concerned with their own empire, their own power and the organisational protection of their turf rather than the protection of the community.

Chook, there are some of us that think of SES as equals and just as important as everyone else. 

Sorry Pip, but the minister is ultimately responsible for us - not as individuals but as members of the emergency services.
Like it or not when we put the uniform on we are "employed" by the emergency services under the Fire & Emergency Services Act. It doesn't matter whether you are a full time in the service, Part time,Retained MFS or a vollie in CFS/SES. The minister is answerable to the Parliament, which in turn is answerable to the people. It is entirely appropriate for her to communicate with whoever she chooses and to make comments on whatever she feels like - thats democracy. I'm curious about one of your comments though,"There are also many things going on behind the scenes that perhaps you are unaware of.". Our Association makes similar comments - What does that mean exactly?
As I have said previously I'm sorry if you read "operational issues" in any of my posts. I have reread my previous posts and can't see any reference to how you guys go about fighting fires, doing rescues, fire management or any of the other operational things you do.
What I have read (repeatedly)though is times are a changin, there is a fantastic opportunity to help with the change and make the services fit the 21 century and continue being in a service to be proud of. But as was said by someone in a previous post - you must know exactly what you want!
What is good for urban/ semi rural brigades(units) may not be suitable for rural/outback brigades/ units. We have this conversation with our urban cousins on a regular basis. Anyway I think I've said enough on this subject, because at the end of the day we will end up doing what the other two services want us to do (it doesn't help being the runt of the litter . cheers chook

[jaff]

AJ
    you sound like a very intraspective person,but i guess that is no suprise because your head is surely stuck somewhere.
as for your comments to pip about not having all the facts before stating anything ie"fiddling" in your diatribe you ask two questions which clearly infers YOU dont have all the answers and then state its proof that shes empire building,not concerned with protecting the community,her priorities are backwards and shes transparent.
you obviously dont know her or you would be using CARMELS private line to call her and apologise.
sounds like darius has you nailed!

[rescue5271]

Its very sad that people in this forum attack others with out knowing that person,Pip would have to be one of those members and a brigade captain who does know what she is talking about..She cares for brigade memebers and the local community that she has under her care as a brigade captain....I have knowen pip for a number of years and it is great to see that she does CARE........

[Firefrog]

This forum is for friendly discussion. Make it friendly or you risk being banned or at very least your posts edited or deleted.

This is a reminder to all......

[Sarge]

Maybe the question should be "should the CFS look at putting on Paid staff to help or suppliment the vollies" (This will not take away from our Volunteer ethos)

[chook]

Nice idea but no chance, in case you haven't heard there isn't any extra money for any of the emergency services. We (SES) are in our third year of budget cuts, SAMFS & I guess you guys are too.
Thats why any talk of paying for what used to be volunteers is a hypothetical anyway. There will be exceptions of course (Seaton for example)but what did SAMFS give up for that - I think we all know (two rural stations maybe ).
Yep we need extra payed staff to assist our units in the area of admin, training & planning. But it isn't going to happen & with vollie numbers dropping off in rural areas, nothing is going to change - this is the harsh reality.
Remember ESL only pays 50% of the costs of the emergency services, with the remainder coming out of treasury.
By the way AJ when I said runt of the litter I meant smallest & cheapest , but thanks for your comments - cheers.
chook

[uniden]

Nice idea but no chance, in case you haven't heard there isn't any extra money for any of the emergency services. We (SES) are in our third year of budget cuts, SAMFS & I guess you guys are too.
Thats why any talk of paying for what used to be volunteers is a hypothetical anyway. There will be exceptions of course (Seaton for example)but what did SAMFS give up for that - I think we all know (two rural stations maybe ).
Yep we need extra payed staff to assist our units in the area of admin, training & planning. But it isn't going to happen & with vollie numbers dropping off in rural areas, nothing is going to change - this is the harsh reality.
Remember ESL only pays 50% of the costs of the emergency services, with the remainder coming out of treasury.
By the way AJ when I said runt of the litter I meant smallest & cheapest , but thanks for your comments - cheers.
chook

I think you mean Seaford. Are you suggesting that some of the MFS regional stations may close??

[chook]

Oops, typed the wrong name thanks for the correction  & yes thats what I heard from two different sources (different services- no known connection to each other). However it hasn't happened yet so can't name them.
Point is it doesn't matter how many great ideas people come up with, there is no money to pay for them unless sacrifices are made. I even wrote to the local member & the minister to make a case for extra staff & dollars to stop our service slipping backwards further. Other than a thanks for your concern reply - nothing!
The truth is the public don't care as long as there is someone to put out the fire, conduct a rescue or cut up that tree. And there isn't any point going to the media (big mistake) as the solutions would be to increase the levy (joe public would hate that), less brigades/units (vollies would go nuts), less new equipment (same) or reduce SAMFS numbers (UFU would go off & why shouldn't they!).
If you look interstate they have corporate sponsorship, and in the Eastern states they don't have the levy, so as I have said previously you can dream about paid CFS members, lots of new equipment etc but unless you can save dollars somewhere else it ain't gonna happen.
cheers

[CFS_Firey]

I've had several unrelated members of the public (one was even from the city) tell me that they would be willing to pay more to give the CFS extra funding.  I think with climate change being accepted as inevitable, Australia being in drought and the world in general seeing more frequent and more severe natural disasters, the public would be happy to pay more to support the CFS. (Can't speak for SES and MFS though).
Given correct public education, I believe the general public would be willing, (if not happy), to pay more to support the fire service.

I also believe that if the CFS isn't getting enough money, they should lobby for more, rather than making the volunteers suffer by cancelling training courses, taking the cheap option on appliances and equipment, and pretending nothing is wrong.

"There's no money" is a good excuse at first, but when there's always no money, year after year, shouldn't someone do something about it?

End rant...

[chook]

Totally true if it is sold right, same for us with all of the recent storm activity & other recent tasks. However the reasons for increased funds have to be sound. For example a new blue water boat for the West coast was sold on the basis of what was required to continue to provide the level of service safely.

And nobody has complained about your new appliances, PPE or sheds. But if the public see money being wasted or no bang for buck, the cause is lost!

I would think your service chiefs would be lobbying the government, I know ours are. I also think that when the public see volunteers arguing with the services in the media, then we will loose support unless its put in a way that the public can see a direct benefit to themselves.
 
I know locally when a small sub brigade was closed & the appliance moved to the parent brigade only the voices of the little hamlet were heard. As far as anyone else was concerned, who cares.
Same as the Adelaide Hills unit, at the end of the day what has really changed?
Lobby the pollies directly, if every member of the CFS/SES contacted their local member (especially if in the opposition) then the message will get through.
Your argument on training is excellent, we have the same problem. If that was put to a member of Parliament in a way that said we are happy to do the job but can't because training courses are cancelled all the time, what do you think their reaction would be? Sorry we can't fight that structural fire because we have no one BA qualified, Sorry we can't extract that road crash victim, not qualified. We want to do it but can't - do you think they would sit up and take notice? I do, but as I said the argument has to be sound.
And a lot of people in the community believe we get a renumeration of some sought, some even believe they have to pay for our services!
So as I have said previously you neeed need to work out what you want, then lobby. Sorry I'm not sure your 34p's are a cheap option though, I know that even though our rescue truck is not perfect - as a tax payer seeing $100,000 sitting their not being used everyday makes me wonder if its really cost effective. Again this is the thing we have to be careful of, complaining about everything does not help our case. Sorry for the long rant but having seen where the services have come from & where they maybe heading to, is a real concern of mine.
cheers

[6739264]

The quickest and easiest way to save money that can then be put into where ever it is needed, it to remove the ridiculous amount of duplication of resources across the three services.

The sooner that there is a single body that covers all the Fire & Rescue needs of SA, the sooner that smart decisions will be made with regard to Fire & Rescue resource allocation.

[chook]

In theory yes in practice maybe - one service tends to be firecentric & who is going to do the flood storm stuff? (which causes more damage in dollar terms anyway).
Some of the techniques used in rescue assist with storm damage (vertical for example).
It certainly hasn't improve the situation in QLD or WA. I agree reduce duplication, also have a look at the location of SAMFS stations is there a need to have them in some localities just because there was a risk in the past?
Why do SAMFS facilities need to cost so much? e.g. Renmark joint SAMFS/SES Facility
416 BRIGADES! are all of them meeting the standard? Is there room for amalgamation or closure?
Why are there still separate SES,CFS & SAMFS facilities?
Is there a need to close some SES units & open new ones because of demographic changes?
And finally are all of the paid staff in the three services & SAFECOM earning their money? Remember the most populated states don't think one service is a great idea & in all honesty do you really think that a single service in a rural area would have the same level of equipment we have now? I don't the money would be spent on things like communication vans and flash new equipment to make the pollies look good in the city. Remember SAAS! cheers

[6739264]

Haha, SAMFS *did* need a new comms bus though.

The problem is trying to get every one to work together. Easier said than done I know. All we need is:

"South Australian Fire & Resuce Service"

- The service has two branches, paid and volunteer.
- ALL CFS/MFS/SES appliances have new livery applied.
- Then the fun part. Each towns multiple services gets wrapped into the one building. Expensive, yes, but a great eventual outcome.
- Of course you only train in what you want to train in. Don't like fire? Only do rescue and so on.

This would allow standard equipment stowage, standard training, standard appliances (eventually), standard SOP's and standard PPE.

This dream hits me at 2am sometimes, then I wake up in cold sweat knowing I shouldn't ever hold such high hopes of something that will never happen.

[chook]

Like minds oh well dreams are what keeps you going May be we might see it one day. Keep the dream alive cheers

[rescue5271]

Never say never..... It may happen......one day

[SA Firey]

Another note about funding the other night Euan Ferguson our CEO addressed the members present and nade a speech regarding the "Off Road Driver Training Program"

Safework SA issued a notice to CFS after the Mt Bryan 24 Rollover incident.This in turn led to the course for additional driver training.$260,000 has been spent on this program so far and Euan approcahed Treasury and made a request for additional funding for this program.The answer was "NO".

It is a shame when one govt organisation says "You will do this" and the other says "No we wont give you the money to do this"

CFS has an extension till 2009 to complete the training.

 

[Alan J]

CFS has an extension till 2009 to complete the training.
 

That's good (I think.) 
Was sitting down the other night thinking about getting every driver from every brigade through the course before January. Even counting all my fingers & toes plus those of the wife & kids I kept coming up short.

So, as a local "CYA" activity, we've grabbed the course notes from the sole member who has been on it, picked the brains of our experienced drivers plus some 4WD clubbies who've done the full 3-day course, and got our resident Adult Educators onto it.  Happily one is also a registered driving instructor. 

We will be putting all our people through a "local familiarisation" (just as soon as the tracks dry out) and hopefully, they'll all be deemed fully competent when they get to do the "real" course sometime between now & Julember 2016...

[6739264]

Now why not put people through the "Drive vehicles under response conditions" public safety package...

[chook]

Isn't that interesting - private industry would never get away with that! Maybe it wouldn't look good for an award winner to get prosecuted in the same year
By the way the private sector is waiting for the first prosecution of a government department - the good oil is it won't happen.
I've asked for our local inspector to give the guys a talk about OHS & he was very happy to until he found out it was a section of the state government. Backed away fast, wanted the request on official paper etc etc.
This scrimping for money for essential training is a disgrace!
Good on you for organising your own training, at least it will help.
cheers

[rescue5271]

CFS have had to come up with the money that is why we are seeing things courses and other things canned at the moment,how hard is it for the government to open the cheque book and say here you go.....but that would be too easy...

[Alan J]

Now why not put people through the "Drive vehicles under response conditions" public safety package...

Easy....
Big Kev won't give Carmel the moolah to run it.
Always assuming Carmel asked in the first place.
Of course, David might not have passed on the message from
Euan to Carmel that he needs a bit extra pocket money this year.

But mostly, Kevin won't part with the cash, & has flagged a cut
in Euan's allowance next year.