Author Topic: Rescuing the rescuers.  (Read 25109 times)

Offline 6739264

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Rescuing the rescuers.
« on: January 08, 2008, 02:19:21 PM »
The CFS BA and Hazmat course both reinforce the principles of having two people(min) ready, at incidents, to effect the rescue of persons already involved in combating the incident.

This is great, yet it was never pointed out that you may need more than just people power to help others. There was no real discussion of tools/techniques to assist those trapped/disorientated.

What do you do in you brigade/group for this sort of thing?

Is the rescue crew outside sitting around with the thumb in their behind or do they have the necessary equipment on hand to rapidly effect the rescue of downed personnel? If so, what do they carry? Should different equipment be made standard stowage to allow properly equipped rescue teams?
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Offline bittenyakka

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2008, 08:21:52 PM »
well it would be great if we could have someting similar to the US with there huge RIT trucks but i agree that much more shuld be implemented in training to pull ff out if needed.

however it was mentioned at a recent trining session i atended that in BA we only realy train for dragging FF out if they run ut of air for example. Should we train for getting crews out of colapsed buildings or traped under faling stuff and using appropriate tlls eg hydrualic in those enviroments.

I know we try to avoid most of these events but mabey they should be ooked at more.

Offline mack

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2008, 10:54:13 AM »

however it was mentioned at a recent trining session i atended that in BA we only realy train for dragging FF out if they run ut of air for example. Should we train for getting crews out of colapsed buildings or traped under faling stuff and using appropriate tlls eg hydrualic in those enviroments.


well i spose that then turns into a USAR in a sense doesnt it?

re; safety crews for BA, we've never had any firm procedure other than having a crew available... i suppose these new 'rescue mats' could become something that the crew may hang onto, along with tools for forcing entry. But other than that, i dont believe anyone carries any specialist tools (not in SACFS anyway...)

Offline chook

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2008, 11:41:42 AM »
As Mack said collapsed buildings are USAR, mind you if it is a burning building and it suddenly collapses and you can't effect a "snatch type" rescue, then what is your plan?
Any type of rescue that requires the use of hydraulic equipment (either HOH or powered) or Air bag lifting equipment is going to take time. The same as heavy cutting equipment or winches etc.
Also your equipment needs increase markedly - shoring, cribbing etc.
Will it all fit on a standard pumper?
And different training - the type of rescue training that SES does for example :wink:
So I'm curious What type of rescues are we talking about? And How often does this type of incident happen in SA? (trapped fire fighters)What are the real & perceived risks?
And if the risks are so great & rural brigades don't have the people or equipment then why aren't the local rescue services responded to structural fires?
cheers

Ken
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Offline bittenyakka

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2008, 11:54:56 AM »
yeah it does turn into a USAR job with fire and i know that my 24 is not caperble of doiing that work.

and once again it turns into a who should carry what discussion.

However i remember watching a video abut emergency airpacs carried by US crews so that they culd keep supplying air to trapped crew while they are rescued as you wll always have the time limmit of air. should this equipment be brught into CFS?

Offline mack

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2008, 12:06:12 PM »
However i remember watching a video abut emergency airpacs carried by US crews so that they culd keep supplying air to trapped crew while they are rescued as you wll always have the time limmit of air. should this equipment be brught into CFS?

sounds interesting... id never heard of that.
i guess if you got desperate and it was a case of waiting on a rescue being effected, then a hot change could be doen with cylinders anyway.

Offline 6739264

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2008, 03:39:18 PM »
However i remember watching a video abut emergency airpacs carried by US crews so that they culd keep supplying air to trapped crew while they are rescued as you wll always have the time limmit of air. should this equipment be brught into CFS?

CFS would need new airsets to achieve this, as the current SABRE Centurions don't allow emergency buddy breathing. I'm all for it, but it'd be a huge cash outlay. The CFS could bridge the gap in the interim by supplying spare facemasks and extension airhoses.

As Mack said collapsed buildings are USAR, mind you if it is a burning building and it suddenly collapses and you can't effect a "snatch type" rescue, then what is your plan?
Any type of rescue that requires the use of hydraulic equipment (either HOH or powered) or Air bag lifting equipment is going to take time. The same as heavy cutting equipment or winches etc.
Also your equipment needs increase markedly - shoring, cribbing etc.
Will it all fit on a standard pumper?
And different training - the type of rescue training that SES does for example :wink:
So I'm curious What type of rescues are we talking about? And How often does this type of incident happen in SA? (trapped fire fighters)What are the real & perceived risks?
And if the risks are so great & rural brigades don't have the people or equipment then why aren't the local rescue services responded to structural fires?
cheers

If part of the building collapses (most commonly the roof in a domestic situation) then yeah, you can have your USAR incident, but only once the fire is out - A little late for our poor crispy fireman. Then its not a rescue is it?

As for what type of rescues we are talking about, well:

Persons pinned under furniture/collapsed building sections
Entanglement in wires/cables
Crews disorientated
Low air/No air and unable to exit
Any situation where a firefighter is down and need extrication from the structure

Chook, of course the gear won't fit on a standard pumper, but things like Omni Tools/Halligans/Stokes Litters will. Crews can also have this gear out and on standby at the incident itself.

I don't know why the local Fire Service rescue appliance isn't responded chook, it a point that could certainly be looked at for larger incidents.
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Offline bajdas

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2008, 03:48:03 PM »
I am not from a fire background, but one of the hardest & basic requirements in rescue is Recce and determining accurately the location of the victim within the structure.

I would imagine the use of frequent location reports as the BA crew proceed through the structure can assist create a mud map of the building layout. Especially difficult when it is a two or more storey building.

I have assisted in training scenarios where crew go through the inside of a dark building they do not know and bring a mud map out within 10 minutes. It is amazing the differences in the mud maps.
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Offline bajdas

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2008, 04:01:42 PM »
...Is the rescue crew outside sitting around with the thumb in their behind or do they have the necessary equipment on hand to rapidly effect the rescue of downed personnel? If so, what do they carry? Should different equipment be made standard stowage to allow properly equipped rescue teams?

Because I am not from a fire background, but rescue is basically to remove the victim from the danger as fast as possible while the rescue crew is safe.

So on this basis, it would be get to the victim quickly and grab the overalls in a drag or 'fore n aft' carry. Maybe a three handed seat carry if coming down stairs.

I would suggest:
* charged line or some sort of quick fire extinguisher
* equipment to complete victim grab (gloves, mud map, rope, hooligan, radio, etc)
* first aid kit for treatment of victim when out of building.
* stretcher & blanket to place victim on to reduce shock. Stretcher should enable easy transfer to SAAS (eg rescue litter).
* SAAS response ability (eg time to arrive).
* Rescue response ability (SES, CFS or MFS)
* clean water to cool victim burns & irrigate eyes
* trained crew so response is automatic & confusion limited (maybe do part of a SES Basic Rescue course)

I would have thought majority is already on the CFS vehicles or can be quickly obtained at the incident. eg if no rescue litter, adapt by using a door or chair.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 04:11:52 PM by bajdas »
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Offline bajdas

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2008, 04:10:27 PM »
For lifting partially collapsed structure off victim, who much weight can the standard jack (to change tyres) on CFS vehicles support ?

I personally would be worried about using hydraulic hoses & fluids in a heated space for risk of punctured hoses.

Grab wooden chocking materials from the building or surrounds. If a victim is down and the Rescue truck with equipment is not on scene, then start breaking things to adapt to your needs. A chain saw cuts all wood very quickly.   :evil:
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Offline bittenyakka

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2008, 04:19:47 PM »
yeah i guess that is the idea innovation in the heat of the moment. 

bajdas in CFS BA operations when crews exit the building they draw a map so that crews going in can suposedly have some form of orrientation and what to expect. however this map never seems to match from crew to crew.


however i think this semst to be a bigget problem and emerges from the atutide in cfs that is largely "get readly for the fire season" " when the fire season comes" and not much that covers structural work.


could somone who has used them add to the reality of using hydrualic tools in fires?

Offline 6739264

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2008, 06:02:39 PM »
yeah i guess that is the idea innovation in the heat of the moment. 

bajdas in CFS BA operations when crews exit the building they draw a map so that crews going in can suposedly have some form of orrientation and what to expect. however this map never seems to match from crew to crew.

however i think this semst to be a bigget problem and emerges from the atutide in cfs that is largely "get readly for the fire season" " when the fire season comes" and not much that covers structural work

could somone who has used them add to the reality of using hydrualic tools in fires?

The Mud maps should match, but sadly it just goes to show that some people are better at mud mapping than others, especially in the heat of the moment.

You should know by now that the CFS only attend bush fires and only work from November to April :Wink:

As far as using hydraulic tools in fires, you'd be mad to do it where there was a possibility of flame impingement, but in an area made safe for rescue work to commence, I don't see a huge issue.

For lifting partially collapsed structure off victim, who much weight can the standard jack (to change tyres) on CFS vehicles support ?

Good luck finding a CFS truck with a trolley jack on board. They seem to be few and far between these days. This may not be the case in rural areas though.

I would suggest:
* charged line or some sort of quick fire extinguisher
* equipment to complete victim grab (gloves, mud map, rope, hooligan, radio, etc)
* first aid kit for treatment of victim when out of building.
* stretcher & blanket to place victim on to reduce shock. Stretcher should enable easy transfer to SAAS (eg rescue litter).
* SAAS response ability (eg time to arrive).
* Rescue response ability (SES, CFS or MFS)
* clean water to cool victim burns & irrigate eyes
* trained crew so response is automatic & confusion limited (maybe do part of a SES Basic Rescue course)

Even for you Bajdas, a non-firefighter, its all so very basic, yet so often at CFS structure fire jobs the 'rescue crew' is simply two people standing around. There is very rarely any move to throw a salvage sheet on the ground and start unloading gear that may be needed. This then means that if an emergency arrives, the so called 'rescue crew' needs to then run around attempting to find the necessary equipment to effect the rescue.

Its odd that we look at how to protect ourselves, as bittenyakka pointed out, in a rural situation, yet nearly nothing is done in terms of structure fire. Urban services country wide have rescue appliances arrive at larger structure fires purely to maintain the safety of interior crews. Why not the CFS?
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Offline bajdas

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2008, 06:49:22 PM »
For lifting partially collapsed structure off victim, who much weight can the standard jack (to change tyres) on CFS vehicles support ?
Good luck finding a CFS truck with a trolley jack on board. They seem to be few and far between these days. This may not be the case in rural areas though.

OK, so if a CFS truck gets a flat tyre in the bush they have no way of jacking the vehicle to change a tyre !! ....

I doubt if many SES volunteers would know how to change a truck tyre properly as well (this includes me), but we have the jack to lift the vehicle on the Field Command bus...  :|
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Offline bajdas

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2008, 07:02:34 PM »
....Even for you Bajdas, a non-firefighter, its all so very basic, yet so often at CFS structure fire jobs the 'rescue crew' is simply two people standing around. There is very rarely any move to throw a salvage sheet on the ground and start unloading gear that may be needed. This then means that if an emergency arrives, the so called 'rescue crew' needs to then run around attempting to find the necessary equipment to effect the rescue....

If happens with SES metro volunteers as well... I attended a partial collapsed male (heat & alcohol) at Clipsal500 track several years ago when walking around. Called a crew to assist on the GRN and they attended with very little equipment. They did not think...all OK in the end because the St Johns van that attended had everything.
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Offline bajdas

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2008, 07:05:24 PM »
In the metro area, I have seen SAAS attend going house fires. I have also seen St John first aid and SAAS to rural fires.

This is to protect by providing medical/1st aid to the volunteers attending the tasking. I understand that only a few CFS volunteers in each brigade have 'senior first aid' certificates, where all SES volunteers should have the qualification.

Is the dispatch of SAAS or St John's resources automatically done to a confirmed structural fires has part of the CFS incident upgrade process ?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 07:08:53 PM by bajdas »
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Offline chook

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2008, 07:29:34 PM »
Sorry but your comments on changing tyres on trucks are C**p. Every truck driver should know how to change tyres, if they don't they need to be trained & shouldn't be driving until they do.
Secondly there is hydraulic fluid rated for fire scenarios.
Third any rescue involving the use of specialist equipment one would assume the fire is not close by, therefore anything related to the fire itself is not relevant. As was said previously if a stokes, Combi tool (OMNITOOL?) - which is hydraulic & a halligan tool is all that is required then so be it.
Chainsaws you carry are petrol? same as disk cutters are you starting to see where I'm heading?
And the real issue is fire crews not getting gear ready to go in, is that correct?
So to fix the problem, we start building more rescue trucks (or relocating them :-(), buy more gear (see previous comment) & issue them to CFS units.
I have only one word to say - duplication.
When are you guys going to learn you don't have to do everything!
As I have said previously, we can & have provided specialist capabilities at fire incidents, all you have to do is ask.
By the way I have seen a CFS crew try and lift 3 Tonne of concrete off a guys leg with the truck jack- it don't work - that is why we have equipped and trained rescue units (who assisted getting the concrete off)
Anyway I've said enough cheers
 
« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 08:14:22 PM by chook »
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Offline alphaone

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2008, 08:09:07 PM »
In the metro area, I have seen SAAS attend going house fires. I have also seen St John first aid and SAAS to rural fires.

This is to protect by providing medical/1st aid to the volunteers attending the tasking. I understand that only a few CFS volunteers in each brigade have 'senior first aid' certificates, where all SES volunteers should have the qualification.

Is the dispatch of SAAS or St John's resources automatically done to a confirmed structural fires has part of the CFS incident upgrade process ?

What you say about SAAS attending going structure fires is true. I have been to three going structure jobs in my 20 months in the CFS, and we have had SAAS at all three. Not just for any occupant who may need it, but for us fire fighters. The last one I went to, was upgraded before arrival, and as I was in the radio room at the time, after ringing Adelaide fire to upgrade, I rang SAAS to confirm that they had been dispatched to the job for stand by.

Offline bittenyakka

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2008, 08:17:56 PM »
Chook
I am not suggesting we strip SES of its rescue roles they do a good job.

however if we are to adequetly equip CFS to carry out rescues of downed ffs either CFS will need more trucks and equipment, we train more CFS in rescue equipment and SES bring it or we train SES in FFing.

now most SES i have spoken to don;t want to be involved in fire and in my area at tleast SES do not have the response times to get the trucks to our urban jobs and be usful in the rescue role.

so the only solution (in my area) is eqquping CFS if we could get the money amongst everything else.  Or by all means can you give me a reason SES can undertake these roles?


Offline 6739264

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2008, 08:42:40 PM »
In the metro area, I have seen SAAS attend going house fires. I have also seen St John first aid and SAAS to rural fires.

This is to protect by providing medical/1st aid to the volunteers attending the tasking. I understand that only a few CFS volunteers in each brigade have 'senior first aid' certificates, where all SES volunteers should have the qualification.

Is the dispatch of SAAS or St John's resources automatically done to a confirmed structural fires has part of the CFS incident upgrade process ?
SAAS have been to every going house fire that I have attended, as well as being at anything reported as a possible house fire. They are there for both the fire crew and anyone pulled from the building.

As far as the Senior first aid certificate goes, I'd suggest it depends on the brigade. 99% of our members have the first aid qualification and a large number also have the adv. oxy resus/AED qualification.

Secondly there is hydraulic fluid rated for fire scenarios.
Third any rescue involving the use of specialist equipment one would assume the fire is not close by, therefore anything related to the fire itself is not relevant. As was said previously if a stokes, Combi tool (OMNITOOL?) - which is hydraulic & a halligan tool is all that is required then so be it.
Chainsaws you carry are petrol? same as disk cutters are you starting to see where I'm heading?
And the real issue is fire crews not getting gear ready to go in, is that correct?
So to fix the problem, we start building more rescue trucks (or relocating them :-(), buy more gear (see previous comment) & issue them to CFS units.
I have only one word to say - duplication.
When are you guys going to learn you don't have to do everything!
As I have said previously, we can & have provided specialist capabilities at fire incidents, all you have to do is ask.
By the way I have seen a CFS crew try and lift 3 Tonne of concrete off a guys leg - it don't work - that is why we have equipped and trained rescue units (who got the concrete off)
Anyway I've said enough cheers
 

Chook, just because a fire is not close by doesn't mean that everything fire related is irrelevant. The fire may be in the next room, the floor below/above, etc etc. You still need trained fire crews internally conducting the rescue. What about heat? What about smoke? What about possible close proximity exposure to fire? To suggest that the SES could possibly begin to provide anything along the lines of fire related rescue is insane. If the building comes down and turns into a USAR job then you'll be the first people I call to come and oversee and assist us with any body removal operations.

There is really no limit on the amount/type of equipment needed. There are the basics of the BA + Sledgehammer/Halligan and stokes litter. Hydraulics and Motors would certainly be a worst case scenario kind of thing. As for the Combi Tool/Combi Cutter/Omni Tool - same thing.

Chook, we may not have to do *everything* but I'm pretty sure that the buck stops with the fire service when fires are involved.

As for the CFS crew trying to lift the concrete, well if there was reasonable doubt they could do it, then of course they should have called the local rescue resource. Don't tar all of us with the incompetence brush.

The CFS should, at the very minimum, be able to ensure the safety of their own crews.
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Offline chook

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2008, 09:38:57 PM »
Guys, in those two posts you have come up with the solutions to your problem :wink:
Firstly train relevant CFS crews in rescue. And reinforce the training regularly, if crews are not doing the right thing then that is not accepted.
Second respond rescue (CFS/SES) to incidents when its required & in a timely manner. CFS provides the people, SES provides the required equipment & if required specialist guidance.
In urban areas where SES response times are too slow, fix the problem.
If RCR rescue units must respond ( first truck rolling) in 6 minutes, so should other rescue units.
If they can't, then CFS needs to be correctly resourced with equipment & people.
I'm not suggesting for a moment that we suddenly get involved in fire tasks, after all you guys have the training - so if there is smoke and/or flame we stay out :wink: We are just the mobile equipment store! Just like SAAS providing medical support.
Finally I don't suggest or imply those guys were incompetent, they were trying their best with the gear they had. On the whole I admire what you guys do & appreciate the specialist knowledge you have (afterall my father was an Airforce fire fighter so it would be wierd if I didn't :-D).
Its just sometimes it takes a bit of lateral thinking to fix problems rather than just throwing money at a problem :wink: Anyway there are my thoughts & thanks for your input - cheers
« Last Edit: January 10, 2008, 05:45:47 AM by chook »
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Offline SA Firey

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2008, 10:49:47 PM »
I have read all the posts provided and there are pros and cons in all of them.

Oxy Viva-Have been campaigning to have this on our appliances for 5 years
Answer-Not standard stowage
Even offered to pay for the training ourselves-Still NO
 
Rapid Intervention Tool-A snowballs chance in hell
We will just wait almost an hour for rescue as MFS are extremely busy :-o
Was offered a complete RCR kit at one stage,and offered to pay for the training
Answer-NO SFEC doesnt allow it 

Defibralators-Every appliance will have them by end 2008-Quote First Aid Intsructor

We can not get the tools to save our own skin,let alone anyone elses and it WILL take the DEATH of a FIREFIGHTER to make Region wake up :x

We are worse off budget wise now than ever before,but what's your life worth!!

SAYING "NO" ALL THE TIME AINT GOING TO MAKE YOU CEO :wink:

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Offline chook

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2008, 05:47:12 AM »
"SAYING "NO" ALL THE TIME AINT GOING TO MAKE YOU CEO"
RIGHT ON :-D
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Offline Darius

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2008, 06:59:06 AM »
Oxy Viva-Have been campaigning to have this on our appliances for 5 years
Answer-Not standard stowage
Even offered to pay for the training ourselves-Still NO

your group is like mine in that we will try the "official way" first but if no go and no valid reasons are presented why not, then we just buy the stuff ourselves.  Given that hasn't occured in this case I'm thinking there must be more to it than I've heard so far.

Defibralators-Every appliance will have them by end 2008-Quote First Aid Intsructor

yeah right, at the speed CFS corporate moves?  no doubt they are coming but maybe end of 2009 or 2010.  I remember a first aid instructor said a similar thing about AEDs 2 years ago at the course I was on.

Unfortunately CFS corporate is almost entirely reactive, partly a result of budget cuts and partly due to legal arse-covering that is so common now in govt and large companies.  Almost all of the innovation in CFS now either comes from, or is driven by, volunteers.  The unfortunate fact is it will probably take someone's death to get things like this introduced.

Offline jaff

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2008, 10:49:02 PM »
Seems like everyone agrees that mud maps are notoriously unreliable,what we need is something that is totally devoid of emotions to just record the facts, JONO'S helmet camera----just a thought.
Cheers Jaff
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Offline chook

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2008, 06:10:31 AM »
Me thinks things are going to get worse, not better. I'm not sure why but there seems to be an increased focus on trying to save money.
Recent discussions I have had with different individuals, all seem to talk about better resource utilisation i.e. " we really don't think you need to keep this piece of equipment or we may redeploy that to somewhere else". And when a deficiency is identified & the official answer is NO, so other funds are used to secure its purchase, then this action is frowned upon :-(.
To find out the answers, I went to the very top (the minister)& the short answer is that there have been increases in budget not decreases.
Therefore what must be happening is that the costs of providing the various services must be increasing at an accelerated rate i.e. your appliance replacements are more expensive than the old ones, PPE costs more etc.
I know for example the cost of hydraulic equipment is unbelievable & that regardless of use its life expectancy is only about ten years.
So how many combitools, AED's, Oxyviva's are we talking? I'm not saying you shouldn't have them - you should but what are you going to give up to secure their purchase?
And you are right, government is reactive (just like the private sector) & it is difficult to justify spend on a risk if nothing has happened in the past.
So What are the answers? I have discussed a few previously & I have a number of other possible solutions (not prepared to discuss here though :wink:).
I know that the above is a little off topic, however it all revolves around equipment etc.
cheers
Ken
just another retard!

 

anything