Author Topic: Rescuing the rescuers.  (Read 24921 times)

Offline RescueHazmat

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2008, 09:27:39 AM »
Seems like everyone agrees that mud maps are notoriously unreliable,what we need is something that is totally devoid of emotions to just record the facts, JONO'S helmet camera----just a thought.
Cheers Jaff

Solves nothing.. - You ever been to a going job Jaff?.. - *EVEN* if someone was on hand to d/load all the video, and *even* if there was equipment on the truck (monitors, power supplies, cords, cables) and *even* if the camera managed to see anything through all the smoke, steam and soot.. - By the time you have reviewed the footage to make a mud map of the operators 15 minute wear in the house, you would look up at a pile of smouldering rubble!

Offline Blue

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2008, 10:16:09 AM »
Solves nothing.. - You ever been to a going job Jaff?.. - *EVEN* if someone was on hand to d/load all the video, and *even* if there was equipment on the truck (monitors, power supplies, cords, cables) and *even* if the camera managed to see anything through all the smoke, steam and soot.. - By the time you have reviewed the footage to make a mud map of the operators 15 minute wear in the house, you would look up at a pile of smouldering rubble!

He heh, true. I had a dream a while ago about a structure fire (I have bizarre dreams about innovations - if I followed up on any one of them I'd be rich) - we currently have a system that can relay information back to the appliance about how much air you are consuming and at what rate, this is technology now. In my dream we rocked up at a going house fire and at the front of the house was a post that had a chip in it and you swipe across the post and it downloads an image of the floor plan onto a small screen hanging on your set (that doubles as a distress signal unit and also sends data back about your air consumption) and when you enter the building it tracked your location, so i had this little light where I was in the house on the map, and I could follow along a wall or into another room, etc. It also had a temperature reader in it, and you could point a laser at anything from the base of the unit and it told you what temp it was.

All those that have done anything with satellites know that they are crap inside buildings - well this wasn't satellite driven per se, it was like it was triangulating off the appliance and off the pole at the front of the house, which were both using satellites to pinpoint their location or had a known location. Anyway, in the dream we were using it like it was standard stuff and nothing out of the ordinary.

So...anyone have a spare $300m so I can make a prototype??  :-D

Offline 6739264

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2008, 10:47:34 AM »
Something that can see through smoke and soot hmm.... Three words anyone?

Yeah, Thermal Imaging Cameras in the CFS? Another pipe dream like Blues'.
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Offline jaff

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2008, 11:16:33 AM »
RescueHazmat, I have been to one or two going jobs over the years thanks for caring and asking!As I read the thread it had turned to a "protracted" rescue of personel trapped/pinned in an urban rescue environment,not every incident turns into hosing off the house slab and making a carpark,also there was a hint of humour intended with my last post,sorry you missed it!

Cheers Jaff
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Offline 6739264

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2008, 11:24:29 AM »
... The SES boys turned it into a 'protracted' rescue. As that would be the only situation in which they would ever be called to assist with a firefighter trapped as a result of a structure fire. Even then it would probably be less of a rescue and more of a body recovery. Again, the question is asked, would another agency really play a leading role? Doubtful.

My original post and question had nothing to do with a protracted rescue, and everything to do with rapid intervention.
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Offline bittenyakka

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2008, 12:55:11 PM »
why don't CFS launch a big protest to get some good funds then.

Offline chook

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2008, 01:39:46 PM »
Just a slight correction - you guys first mentioned USAR which is a protracted rescue yes? And mentioned heavy equipment - yes?
Also if you guys are doing something which a) is of high risk & b) you obviously don't have the gear (& it it seems training for some) you need then from a risk management point of view Should you continue to do it?
So if I have got this right you need:
Rapid intervention tools, thermal imaging cameras, AED's, Oxyviva's, DSU's (do you have one each?), Radio's (in previous topics it was mentioned some had one each, some didn't). Not to mention other equipment you guys have identified as needed for other scenarios.
How many sets are we talking - 1 per urban appliance, 1 set of gear per brigade, a couple sets per group?
And in your last scenario (body recovery) why not? We do at MVA's that involve incineration. And in the Wildfire scenario we provide & operate boats, pumps etc.
Do the other Vollie fire services, provide this equipment & if so to what level?
As I keep saying if it is Rapid Intervention (Fire) then you guys should have the gear to get your self or your mates out of trouble (eg the gear that is carried on Berri 609). If however it is heavy rescue then there are other resources available & should be called upon.
cheers
Ken
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Offline Hicksflat14

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2008, 01:59:45 PM »
Something that can see through smoke and soot hmm.... Three words anyone?

Yeah, Thermal Imaging Cameras in the CFS? Another pipe dream like Blues'.

We don't have as many as the NSWFB but if you did some research you'd find CFS do have TIC.

http://www.ypct.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1865&Itemid=1

Offline 6739264

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2008, 02:03:05 PM »
USAR was only mentioned as Mack suggested that a collapsed building while involved in fire turns into USAR "in a sense". You then jumped all over it screaming USAR and SES, chook.

Chook, the point of this thread was to try to get an understanding of what other brigades/groups do for Firefighter Rescue in a structural fire scenario. It wasn't really to get into yet another discussion about 'Rescue' and who should do/have what.

I think that this is an area that the CFS really need to look at, and should have at least one appliance per group stowed with the appropriate gear to effect the rescue of fellow firefighters. One day something will happen and on scene crews will be caught out.

In terms of body recovery, I'd be all for you guys to come along and do shoring if you felt the need, but I can assure you that the only people that will lay hands on the body of a firie would be fellow firies. It's just the way things are done.
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Offline 6739264

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2008, 02:03:43 PM »
Something that can see through smoke and soot hmm.... Three words anyone?

Yeah, Thermal Imaging Cameras in the CFS? Another pipe dream like Blues'.

We don't have as many as the NSWFB but if you did some research you'd find CFS do have TIC.

http://www.ypct.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1865&Itemid=1

No doubt CFS wouldn't have as many as SAMFS or MFB either. Great to see that they are being used effectively. I hope the other one is on Burnside Hazmat... or somewhere a little more useful than KI.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2008, 02:09:34 PM by 6739264 »
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Offline RescueHazmat

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2008, 02:38:27 PM »
RescueHazmat, I have been to one or two going jobs over the years thanks for caring and asking!As I read the thread it had turned to a "protracted" rescue of personel trapped/pinned in an urban rescue environment,not every incident turns into hosing off the house slab and making a carpark,also there was a hint of humour intended with my last post,sorry you missed it!

Cheers Jaff

Yep, missed it. - The joys of a forum where emotion and intent are unable to be relayed through text. - You obviously saw my reply as a dig at your experience or what jobs you have attended? .. Well it wasn't, more so using the comment to re-inforce the reasons why a camera wouldn't really be appropriate. Again, the joys of an internet forum. . .   :)

Offline chook

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2008, 05:25:01 PM »
"You then jumped all over it screaming USAR and SES, chook." - slight exaggeration?
You started talking about a rapid rescue of a downed FF, others then expanded the scenario, which then increased the level of equipment required. Thats when I "jumped in".
As I asked in the previous post - do vollie fire services have this equipment interstate?
A responsible Employer would not expose its employees to an unacceptable risk, so therefore How did this situation develop?
When I look at the various angles you take in a number of different areas, you certainly have an opinion on who should be doing what (i.e. fire does rescue), all I was doing was pointing out that resources already exist so why duplicate? However you have made it very clear that one brigade in each group should have rapid intervention equipment.
Well the good news is in the group that look after this area one brigade has :wink:
However do they get responded to structural fires outside of their town - No.
You have also indicated/hinted that some of your fellow firies don't really do or know what to do - obviously a training problem within CFS.
Personally how you guys go about your business is -  well your business, however if all of a sudden CFS received more funds to create another duplication in equipment/skills then that would really make no sense - SAMFS also have the equipment even retained(e.g609).
Anyway at the end of the day the decision is not mine or yours - SAFECOM will ultimately decide on all of this sought of stuff, after all it all comes down to dollars.
As far as your last comment goes it would depend on the location, circumstances & other factors. However from a human view point I agree with your statement.
Finally in SA SES = Rescue  :-D cheers
« Last Edit: January 11, 2008, 06:53:59 PM by chook »
Ken
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Offline bajdas

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2008, 06:12:26 PM »
OK, if you go back through the thread I have made suggestions of what I would get out of a truck as standby:-

"I would suggest:
* charged line or some sort of quick fire extinguisher
* equipment to complete victim grab (gloves, mud map, rope, hooligan, radio, etc)
* first aid kit for treatment of victim when out of building.
* stretcher & blanket to place victim on to reduce shock. Stretcher should enable easy transfer to SAAS (eg rescue litter).
* SAAS response ability (eg time to arrive).
* Rescue response ability (SES, CFS or MFS)
* clean water to cool victim burns & irrigate eyes
* trained crew so response is automatic & confusion limited (maybe do part of a SES Basic Rescue course)

I would have thought majority is already on the CFS vehicles or can be quickly obtained at the incident. eg if no rescue litter, adapt by using a door or chair."

What would you suggest from a firie viewpoint, not from a rescuer viewpoint.   :| 
Andrew Macmichael
lives at Pt Noarlunga South.

My personal opinion only.

Offline mack

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2008, 05:45:31 AM »
Something that can see through smoke and soot hmm.... Three words anyone?

Yeah, Thermal Imaging Cameras in the CFS? Another pipe dream like Blues'.

We don't have as many as the NSWFB but if you did some research you'd find CFS do have TIC.

http://www.ypct.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1865&Itemid=1

No doubt CFS wouldn't have as many as SAMFS or MFB either. Great to see that they are being used effectively. I hope the other one is on Burnside Hazmat... or somewhere a little more useful than KI.


Last i heard, all the regions have a TIC in the office... definitely 1, 2 &3.

Offline SA Firey

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2008, 10:32:40 AM »
At $18,000 each no wonder there is only one per region
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Offline CFS_Firey

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2008, 02:33:27 PM »
Isn't that $18,000 wasted if it's just kept in the office?  At least give it to a brigade...

Offline bittenyakka

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2008, 04:24:37 PM »
yeah but then it would set a precedent and all brigades would need to have one :?

more seriously if it is at region then it is the problem that it could never be brought to a job quick enough

Offline Hair

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2008, 05:56:44 PM »
more seriously if it is at region then it is the problem that it could never be brought to a job quick enough

I was talking to those using the thermal imaging camera at our last fire we had.
They stated it wasn't really effective on the first night after ignition as the ground was still too hot. The next night was more successful between midnight and day break.

Hair

Offline bittenyakka

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2008, 06:19:18 PM »
Hair we are talking in terms of structure fires these would need it withing the first 5 - 10 mins to really be effective.

Offline 6739264

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2008, 06:31:53 PM »
Last i heard, all the regions have a TIC in the office... definitely 1, 2 &3.

Niiice... Awesome waste of resources that is. I hope they don't mind coming when I call for it. But of course you can't give it to one brigade and not others, as multiple brigades in a region have a case for having one.

Bajdas, yeah your suggestions are great, no issue with them at all. :)

Chook, some volly brigades have that equipment interstate, but at the same time the CFS is pretty unique having the area of responsibility that it does (Fire, Rescue, Hazmat) and being 110% volunteer at brigade level.

How 'this' was allowed to happen is pretty simple. The CFS likes to focus on rural fires and tends to forget that it attends structure fires (For evidence look at the 'pumpers' and what they issue as a Halligan Tool) The CFS motto of "Come home safe" needs to be looked at in all senses of the job that we do, and unfortunately it too often comes down to the OIC because there are not SOP's written, apart from two in, two out.

In terms of me having my mind made up about certain things, yeah I do, but at the same time so do you. The last line of your post "in SA, SES = Rescue no matter how tongue in cheek could not be further from the truth. You have to realise that there are forms of rescue that the SES are just not capable of and entering a burning building to pull out firies and civvies happens to be one of them.

Having fellow firies not knowing what to do has nothing to do with training - as there is no formal traiing for rapid intervention. The problem arises when you have volunteer emergency services having to take what they get in terms of members. There are many people in my brigade that I don't feel that I can rely on, but they are available during the day and other hours, so they are voted in as members. Its the same thing in some of the local SES units. You obviously have your head around things but its a far cry from the units I've delt with. At the end of the day, you take what you can get so that you can provide a service to a minimum standard.

I don't quite see how you can view the procurement of funds to protect the lives of firefighters by training people in how to go about rescuing their own colleagues as not making sense. SAMFS have the equipment and the training because on the whole the are a decent fire service.

You talk of duplication if the CFS upskilled and re-equipped to deal with this issue as though its something that the SES could undertake now. For the SES to undertake the rescue of firefighters, wouldn't they need firefighting PPE? Training in firefighting and search and rescue techniques? As well as a multitude of other things that would essentially turn them into firefighters?

Of course the decision is not mine or yours, I did not start this topic of *discussion* for a decision to be made. I wanted to find out what other CFS (YES, CFS not SES) brigades did in terms of preparing for the possibility of having to rescue a downed firefighter.

Can we please try and leave the discussion as to which agency should do what out of every discussion of rescue?

Hair, the TIC's no doubt worked like crap as they are not really designed for use at bushfires. Take them into a structure and they are pretty much god's gift to firefighting - Both during and after the fire. If you use them to look at the ground after a bushfire has gone through, then all you're going to get is a nice white screen (because its ALL hot). Once you have a significant temperature difference between items, they work great. TIC's produced these days tend to be able to distinguish between 0.5 degrees Celsius. But I still am at a loss as to how they were used on KI as anything more than a PR exercise.

Bittenyakka, it depends what you want the TIC for. They are great for S&R as well as overhaul. Yeah, they will be useless for S&R if they are not there on the truck, but they still can be used and brought from the office for overhaul.

Phew... I'm done now!
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Offline chook

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2008, 06:55:15 PM »
Excellent response, yes the Rescue bit at the end was tongue in cheek - well sought of :wink:
Only offered a quick short term solution - while your service soughts itself out, but as I said at the end of the day it's your problem :-(
Due to some potential changes within our service, I/we have other stuff to worry about!
Anyway another enlightening discussion, which helps re-enforce why I'm not a firie :wink: As we don't send people into harms way without having ways & means to get them out.
Just another question, If the CFS is so bad why do you stay? While I agree we have some issues- I trust the members of my team (Sacked the ones I couldn't :wink:)
Anyway thanks again for increasing my knowledge.
cheers
« Last Edit: January 13, 2008, 07:11:18 PM by chook »
Ken
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Offline bittenyakka

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2008, 07:27:00 PM »
I think it is often the people that make us stay and the result when things get done right. Of course the challenges that CFS presents both operationally and administratively sometimes suck you in.

Offline chook

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2008, 07:51:06 PM »
Yep same reason I stay (especially the challanges bit), at the end of the day we have similar issues in broad terms anyway.
Thats part of the fun of being a vollie I guess.
Anyway cheers
Ken
just another retard!

Offline 6739264

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2008, 09:33:18 PM »
Only offered a quick short term solution - while your service soughts itself out, but as I said at the end of the day it's your problem :-(
Due to some potential changes within our service, I/we have other stuff to worry about!
Anyway another enlightening discussion, which helps re-enforce why I'm not a firie :wink: As we don't send people into harms way without having ways & means to get them out.
Just another question, If the CFS is so bad why do you stay? While I agree we have some issues- I trust the members of my team (Sacked the ones I couldn't :wink:)
Anyway thanks again for increasing my knowledge.
cheers

You're not wrong about the fire service. It does need to sort it self out and either go with the RFS or the CFA model, not a mish mash of the two. Only time will tell, sadly.

As to why I stay in the CFS? I trust the core group of responders in my brigade with my life and they also happen to be my closest friends outside of the fire service. Those people without a great skill set are people that we can have on the pump, and work with to achieve the desired outcome. A little bit of mentoring and guidance never goes astray.

There is always going to be different level of skills, commitment and 'passsion' for the job, and thats just what you have to deal with - its teh nature of the volunteering beast.
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Offline chook

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Re: Rescuing the rescuers.
« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2008, 06:09:39 AM »
Yep your not wrong - a year ago had to stop and reassess my attitude, expectations towards the team I was expected to lead.
Coming from a full time military background, where people were highly trained & disciplined my expectations were a little too high, however I was lucky enough to spend 18 months with a very good rescue team who despite an outward appearance of casualness were very good at what they do. It showed me a different way of running a vollie unit. They had a very high entrance bar, their unit manager is on top of everything (you can't get away with anything :wink:)& they had everything they need to do the tasks required. I was able to take what I had learnt to a new unit which was like the ones you describe, however 12 months latter there has been a big turn around. I guess it really depends on what the CFS & the community wants from its fire service, I was going to mention the NSW model but that would be a major turn around for the CFS. Same as the Victorian system. And not just for the fire services!
Maybe as a matter of urgency SAFECOM needs to look at the whole issue, without the passion that raises its head everytime this is spoken of.
At the end of the day however the issue of rescue crews/RIT's at structural fires needs to be address now, otherewise one day it will all go "pearshaped" and there will be another enquiry. And no one wants that! Also I find it hard to believe that an esential piece of equipment (TIC)is kept at Regional headquaters, for us that is almost two hours away! Anyway I'm sure that one day it will all be fixed :-D
cheers
Ken
just another retard!

 

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