Author Topic: SA's Fixed wing firefighting aircraft  (Read 11763 times)

Offline chook

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Re: SA's Fixed wing firefighting aircraft
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2008, 05:58:52 PM »
Yep you are right - lease not purchase, & yep a good tool as I said. I repeat though what else could you do with 30 mil? And of course costs come into it!
Not sure about SAMFS or CFS but every other department must make compulsory savings (SES$500,000), SAPOL etc.
So next year Gilly when you have that bright orange helicopter sitting on the ground, don't whinge about all of the other stuff you don't have.
Anyway it doesn't matter the decision is out of our hands & they look so good as a back drop for the premier.
If the states were smart they would get together & convince Rudd to buy a fleet for the defence department, that way we get a good capability, defence get a good capability & the fedaralies pay for it :wink: I mean they don't care defence is 6 Billion over budget!
Anyway I'm proberly not the right person to comment as I'm starting to realise the cuts we are going to suffer next budget - (thanks Mike!) & I won't be here for the next fire season.
cheers
Ken
just another retard!

Offline bittenyakka

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Re: SA's Fixed wing firefighting aircraft
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2008, 07:54:30 PM »
Well i guess if something costs more it should do a better or diffrent job. But still 30 mill seems a lot where has this figure come from?

Offline Alan J

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Re: SA's Fixed wing firefighting aircraft
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2008, 11:40:07 PM »
Aircranes offer a better service than airtractors. they can pick up from anywhere without landing, dams, even a pool, and can hold 3 times an air tractor.

all absolutely true !
Then there come some conditional truths Gilly.

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They could put at least 10 times the water on a fire than an air tractor over the same time period. (and in most places, water sources are fairly close by).

My opinion - it is only an opinion since I wasn't actually under it, merely noticing cycle time from the NE flank of the Willunga fire...

The Crane made a big difference at the Willunga fire.

(It hurts to say that - I'm a AT802F fan).  Because it was in the hills with a lot of decent farm dams available close by, it was dropping 8,000+ Litres every five minutes or so. The AT's take time to fly to an airstrip, land, load (2 mins with the latest pumps at Cherry Gdns) take-off, return to the FG & be tasked by the AAS... maybe 3,000L per 20 mins. Quicker if the fire is closer.

Away from the Hills & the farm dams, the AT's probably have the edge.  The Crane is slower so its cycle time would be much longer.

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They can also direct water easier, are safer than fixed wings, can dump more concentrated loads (lower speeds).

Any rotary winged aircraft is inherently more dangerous than a fixed wing one. If the big wheel stops turning, it's a brick...
On the other hand, the ten or so AT802's that would be needed to do the job of the one Crane ***in this one situation*** would need careful management to avoid bumping into each other.
It would also need some investment in reloading & refuelling infrastucture at the various airbases.

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People are too willing to "shoot down" things due to cost, without really looking at the advantages.

You noticed that too, huh !!  Mind you, has anyone actually seen a cost comparison between one Crane @ between $12K & $22K / hour flying time depending upon who you believe, plus stand-by costs, vs. a pack of AT802Fs at whatever their hourly rate is ?

The operating costs of 10 AT802Fs per hour may possibly be comparable to one Crane. But 10 x 802's can be at 10 different fires just as easily as beating the living daylights out of one fire...

The other thing is that for every hour of flight time, the Cranes have to spend much more down-time for maintenance - something like 2:1.  If one of 10 AT's breaks, you can still run at 90% of their capacity. If a crane breaks, you run at 0% of its capacity until fixed..

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I'm more than happy to have an air-crane here as they are so effective. The government is not buying one for $30m, just having one here for the whole season (which was done basically this year anyway...).

We got lucky this year - it rained interstate, & a mate in RFS Blue Mountains was bragging that their max temp hasn't exceeded 30C at all in 2008... Could have very easily squabbling with Vic & NSW for it & come away with nothing.

Anyway, enough with grizzling from me. 
There's no question that the Crane is good.
Just whethwer it represents the *best* value for our money.


cheers
AJ

[edit: fixed quoting]
« Last Edit: March 22, 2008, 01:28:34 PM by CFS_Firey »
Alan J.
Cherry Gdns CFS

Data isn't information.  Information isn't knowledge. 
Knowledge isn't wisdom.

Offline Gilly

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Re: SA's Fixed wing firefighting aircraft
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2008, 05:24:52 PM »
Any rotary winged aircraft is inherently more dangerous than a fixed wing one. If the big wheel stops turning, it's a brick...

I tend to disagree.
Sure if the engine stops it will fall from the sky, but those air tractors are not exactly gliders, especially with a full load!
My view on their safety is only related to the hills and forrest areas. (which is where most intensive bombing is done due to lack of ground access, fire behaviour on slopes etc).

An aircrane can maneuver with more precision and safety around hills, power lines etc as they can stop, up down forwards back etc. you name it, they can move there. Airtractors are limited to forwards motion at high speeds. not the best flying up a valley under powerlines etc.

Airtractors are much more effective and efficient on flat land, but for the hilly areas, forrests and really intense bombing activities, a skycrane is a much better, and "worth the money" option in my opinion

I believe that a combination of air-tractors and skycrane like we have is the best configuration. To send away a skycrane would be losing effectiveness and abilities, and to have one here on contract for the FDS is an advantage.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2008, 05:29:18 PM by Gilly »

Offline Mike

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Re: SA's Fixed wing firefighting aircraft
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2008, 07:21:19 AM »
It would be interesting to hear a pilot's view - what they believe are the pro's and cons of the states various options...

 

anything