Author Topic: You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS  (Read 23112 times)

Offline CyberCitizen

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You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS
« on: July 04, 2005, 09:49:52 AM »
ABOUT 30 victims of the Black Tuesday bushfires on Lower Eyre Peninsula are to lodge a multimillion-dollar class action against the Country Fire Service over its handling of the disaster that killed nine people.

The victims want others to join the action, which is based on a belief the fire should have been contained on the Monday night through back-burning operations and water bombing.

Victims are believed to have lost more than $100 million in property and stock in the January 11 fire.

The group has engaged an Adelaide law firm and has held a public meeting in Port Lincoln. An independent investigator has been hired to compile a report on the fires.

The victims, many of whom are volunteer firefighters themselves, are now awaiting the outcome of an expected coronial investigation before initiating legal action.

The CFS's handling of the fire has been the subject of several reports and will be a key factor examined in the coronial investigation.

CFS chief executive Euan Ferguson yesterday said it would be inappropriate to comment on any potential legal action.

Meanwhile, the man charged over the fires, truck driver Marco Visic Jr, has issued an emotional statement through his lawyer, Mark Semmens.

Mr Visic, 40, was last month charged with breaching a section of the Country Fires Act by not having a spark arrester in good order. The fire allegedly took hold when Mr Visic's car was driven in long grass near Wangary.

"My client feels immense sorrow for the devastation caused by the bushfire, to those who lost property and, more so, to those who were injured or lost loved ones in the fires," the statement says. "Mr Visic Jr and his family have suffered emotionally and are distressed by the fire, its consequences and the court charge. Mr Visic asks that he and his family are not vilified for what is the most tragic event on the Eyre Peninsula this century."

The fire claimed nine lives and destroyed 93 homes as it tore through 77,000ha of the lower Eyre Peninsula. Farmers reported 237 sheds and 139 pieces of farm machinery were destroyed. Almost 47,000 head of livestock was lost, including 46,139 sheep.

White Flat resident Patricia Pahl, who lost her house, said she had signed up for the class action because she believed the blaze was poorly handled.

She, like many other victims, claims that back-burning on Monday night could have restricted the extent of the fire, which broke out in up to eight places in extreme temperature and high winds the following day.

"I am not into suing people," Ms Pahl said yesterday. "But there was more that could have been done on that Monday night."

Ms Pahl's daughters, Cassandra, 13, and Helen, 11, fled their property in two four-wheel-drives as 20m-high flames approached. Almost six months after the ordeal, Ms Pahl said many in the community were still coming to terms with the tragedy.

Her family is still living in a caravan amid the rubble of their former home.

"Some days I'm crying, some days I can't talk, some days I'm laughing. It is just stupid," she said.

"The whole thing is very upsetting. It is affecting our kids. But we are so thankful we are alive."

Several victims fear the coronial inquiry will be delayed by a change in state coroners. Outgoing coroner Wayne Chivell, who toured affected areas immediately after the blaze, has resigned to take up a position as a District Court judge.

His replacement has not yet been announced.

"It is very disappointing – the Government should have more sympathy and kept the same coroner until he finished his job," Ms Pahl said.

"The new coroner will have to go over everything and get a gist of the whole thing and that's going to take months. I'm very disheartened about the whole thing."

Source: http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,15812063%255E910,00.html

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strikeathird

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Re: You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2005, 12:28:55 AM »
If it wasn't for that one spark, it wouldnt have happend.

Funny how the tide is turning in CFS' direction!  I blame the person without the spark arrestor!

Offline Firefrog

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Re: You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2005, 11:01:15 AM »
Please feel free to discuss this topic, but refrain from any rumor, speculation or gossip.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2005, 12:20:37 PM by Firefrog »

Offline oz fire

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Re: You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2005, 11:09:13 AM »
Blame - ahhh the great word of todays society - it's always someone else's fault.

NOW:

Was it solely the car driver and his vehicle?

Was it the mechanic who had not picked up a fault?

Was it a new car and therefore the manufacturers fault?

Was it the adjoining land owner who had not maintained the required breaks around their property?

Was it the local council - who had not educated the community?

Was it the Fire Prevention Officer (council) who had not done their inspections?

Was it the local Brigade and Group, who had not engaged the community in proactive fire prevention and survival advise?

Was it poor management by the IMT - were they in control of the fire?

Was there even an operating IMT at the time of the escape?

Was it poor fire prevention advice and information by CFS, the fire prevention team (there are allot of staff in that team), SAFECOM Risk Management (another big team), CFS Media (a small team with a huge voice)

Was it poor funding by government - who under resourced the area with fire appliances, aircraft, machinery, rural fire experts, land managers and alike?

Or was it a combination of all or some of the above, which combined with time, complacency, resources (public and private) and the EXTREME fire weather created a disaster, an eye opener and a reminder to all Australians, all communities and all fire fighters that we don't control fire, we attempt and often manage it but occasional it is outside of any parameters and that is what we warn people about - it is wild, it moves, it lives, it consumes and occasionally (as the record books indicate) there is little anyone and any amount of resources can do.

BLAME is not an option here - UNDERSTANDING is!
Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the ability to control it.

Good times

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Re: You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2005, 02:06:32 PM »
I think its a good thing people are pursuing this, hopefully some deep and thorough investigations will be done.

Offline JamesGar

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Re: You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2005, 03:31:06 PM »
Loss leads to anger, and anger leads to a want to blame.

I believe that this is all very unfortunate and sad for all the people involved. As for a class action against the CFS, well that's the seeking to blame!

I also believe that the weather conditions experienced on Eyre Pen on Black Tuesday would have made the fire very difficult to contain regardless of the amount of resources sent.

Image the different fire Mount Osmond would have been if the wind conditions were doubled in speed!

I hope some good comes out of this for all involved.
James Gardiner
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Offline CyberCitizen

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Re: You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2005, 05:37:39 PM »
I also believe that the weather conditions experienced on Eyre Pen on Black Tuesday would have made the fire very difficult to contain regardless of the amount of resources sent.

"There is no firefighting force in the world that could have stopped the fire in the conditions we experienced today"

Next, The Man Who Sued God.  Can They Not Prove He Had Something To Do With The Weather Conditions.

We Are Vollies, We Went To Help & They Want To Sue The CFS Because They Feel That We Could Have Done More.  That May Just Be The Case, However We Did The Best We Could During The Suitation & Now They Have All The Time In The World To Pick Apart Every Small Detail.  I Think It's Wrong, However That Being Said, I Also Feel Sadness For Those Who Lost Love'd Ones & There Homes + Belongings.

Fatalities 9 (including 4 children and 2 firefighters) - Let Us Not Forget We Lost Some Of Our Own Over There.

Good times

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Re: You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2005, 08:23:05 PM »
But the people suing are talking about the day before, when it was not anything like the next day, what went wrong the day before?

I am just playing devils advocate, there is always two sides to a story..........

strikeathird

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Re: You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2005, 12:50:00 AM »
What annoys me, is that some of the people suing the CFS, are actual Vollies.  I am traidtional etc, and don;t think going at your own like that is a good idea.

Fair enough, you want something back for what you lost, if people etc were negligent, or acted in a neglegent manner, you want something for it, but why go public with it all ?

Offline Mike

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Re: You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2005, 10:18:08 AM »
I can sympathise with what these people would be feeling, but i dont believe the answer is to sue someone.... I liken it to biting the hand that feeds you (in this case the people doing their utmost to help)

I wonder how much influence american culture has had on our society when things like this come up......

strikeathird

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Re: You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2005, 03:48:17 PM »
^ Couldn't agree more.

Saw in the paper on the same day as that article, that actual vollunteers don't have to worry, obviously there is a Clause some where that clears volunteers of there actions ?  (Im guessing as long as they aren't negligent).  As was written in the paper, I also believe that this kind of 'action', which is now in the media spotlight, would only dis-courage people wanting to volunteer there time, and risk getting sued! 

I heard the findings are meant to be released soon?  Any knowledge on when?

Offline Mike

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Re: You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2005, 05:08:25 PM »
I think were covered by the "good samaritan" act...... or something like that.....

Offline firefighter_sa

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Re: You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2005, 08:24:55 PM »
Hi there all

I have been sitting back viewing what is been written for some time now.

I am a CFS Volunteer within the upper rank structure (Group) as well as a full time Emergency Services worker-  and I understand the frustrations of the people whom have lost everything.

My biggest worry is for the future volunteers within the CFS - "Australia" relies heavily on the volunteer services and they do a mighty job -  

but this sort of negative publicity will have detrimental effects for the volunteer numbers within the current & future.

At the end of the Day - I agree there needs to be an inquiry.  No one can fix mistakes if they are not highlighted.

Again I stress I have seen the effects of the fires on the E/P and my thoughts and sympathy goes to those who have lost love ones & friends.

Thanks for looking

Wayne
« Last Edit: July 06, 2005, 11:52:00 PM by firefighter_sa »
Wayne Ellard

strikeathird

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Re: You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2005, 11:04:45 PM »
Thats right wayne.  Who is going to want to "volunteer" there precious time, not to mention risking there lives etc, and risk the chance of being sued for doing the right thing.  The worst thing about all of this, is it is in the media spotlight.

Offline Broadside

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Re: You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2005, 11:16:38 AM »
I have heard of people saying that they don't want to sue the vollies only the paid staff. What they forget is that what ever happens to the paid staff may filter down to the vollies in some way.

Offline CyberCitizen

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Re: You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2005, 12:42:54 PM »
Negative Publicity = Less Vollies = Less Bridages = Less Service/Protection.

strikeathird

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Re: You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2005, 01:41:25 PM »
Less Service/Protection = MFS Take over = End of CFS

Offline Mike

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Re: You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2005, 03:18:46 PM »
Is interesting...... Ive been bailed up by a few people at work asking what i thought about the matter aswell..... They have all given me the same impression. The general consensis from people is that "its not right to "attack" those that were trying to help"

Public opinion isnt always swayed by what they read i guess......

Offline CyberCitizen

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Re: You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2005, 03:23:22 PM »
MFS Take over = End of CFS

Well We Can't Have That Can We.

Quote
Ive been bailed up by a few people at work asking what i thought about the matter aswell

Well Send Them Here :-D

Offline Mike

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Re: You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2005, 04:09:10 PM »

Quote
Ive been bailed up by a few people at work asking what i thought about the matter aswell

Well Send Them Here :-D

Ahh, now that comment gives a bad impression of the poeple im talking to..... see how easy it is! And we were complaining about the media   :wink: :-D

strikeathird

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Re: You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2005, 04:16:45 PM »
As Mike said...    I had a hair cut today, first question hairdresser asked me (as he knows im in the CFS) ...   "Looks like you guys are in the media spotlight about this Pt Linc. stuff ey?"    (Explained I only know what I read, as I was not there) "He then also voiced the view that what they hell are people playing at , suing vollunteers!!

So i guess not everyone thinks we are terrible monsters, causing havoc and destruction...........Altho I can see the media will run with this, like they do everything!

Offline Pipster

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Re: You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2005, 11:11:15 AM »
A few things out of this discussion so far:

CFS isn't just covered by a "good Samaritan clause" - there is actually a part of the legislation which protects members from being sued, as long as they were acting in good faith (eg not negligent).   So it covers the money side of things - eg volunteers won't lose their possessions if the case goes against them - but not the emotional side.

Another comment one of the correspondents to this list said - at least if this class action is happening, there will be a thorough investigation.....I am a little intrigued - is this meant to be tongue in cheek, or an actual belief?

There are a wide range of investigations occurring into the fires - some internal, others completely external (and independent) to the CFS.   Project Phoenix was done internally by the CFS, the police investigation, investigation by the CSIRO (I think) into the actual bushfire behavior, as well as a few other independent investigators.     I would expect ALL of those investigators to be thourough in their own area investigation.   Is an investigation by a law firm, looking for someone to blame / hold responsible going to mean it is the only thorough investigation?

While I respect the right of people to take legal action, I am still perplexed on exactly what the basis of the claim actually is - as of two days ago (6th July) the action had not yet been filed with the courts......


Pip
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rescue5271

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Re: You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2005, 08:50:35 PM »
I think we have to be very careful talking about this in a open room which the public have access to,also as this is a on going court case may be for once we should just wait and see the whole picture.

 THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE.

strikeathird

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Re: You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2005, 11:12:37 PM »
So far all that has been voiced, are some general opinions.  The methods involved in investigation, and time spans etc.  Nothing that can be seen as confidential , or incriminating.

But yes, the need for care is definately present.   Altho, I don't think opinions are a problem, as they are personal, and not relevant to anything.  (just don;t include facts/hearsay, or items deemed confidential or "privvy".)

Offline mattb

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Re: You'll Pay, Black Tuesday Victims To Sue CFS
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2005, 11:13:13 AM »
Interesting article on Crikey regarding the E.P. fires, I don't necessarily agree with it all but still interesting none the less.

http://www.crikey.com.au/articles/2005/07/06-0956-455.html