Author Topic: Oxygen & AED stowage  (Read 39603 times)

Offline 6739264

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Oxygen & AED stowage
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2008, 12:47:09 PM »
Ah that expains it then - sorry if I miss read the post :oops:
Would have thought all fire appliances would have been equiped anyway as BM said for selfish? reasons. Would have thought basic first  aid for smoke inhalation, would have been O2? I mean your not going to do mouth to mouth are you?
And as for the AED more likely from over exertion at a fire?
Exactly. And when do us firies end up falling over? After a fire, due to exertion. This should be the primary reason that we have the gear on the appliances. Treating the public is just a happy side effect. There isn't much that we can medically do, but just putting O2 on someone can make a huge difference to their panic and stress levels. Its basic, but it works.

The benefits of having this gear out in the sticks will no doubt be of assistance as if you arrive before the ambos (common, even in R1) you can help the persons involved feel at ease, and as though they are getting treated - Even with just the O2.

Just the requirements for this equipment is higher in regards to training etc & the need to keep current - ask how many industrial sites with first aid rooms have an occupational first aider? This is a requirement under the current code of practice (which is being rewritten as I type). As a matter of fact the whole first aid thing is being looked into, due to the complex nature of the current system.
So unless SAAS is going to provide the equipment & training (like CERT training ) then it's a big ask. Maybe thats the answer - all emergency first responders are CERT trained? Would save the services heaps in first aid costs :-D
Cheers

The training isn't THAT much more. Bag/mask devices just replace mouth to mouth (squeezing a bag is hard), AED's are so simple it's not funny. Crank the 02 cylinder up to 8-15 L/min and let them suck it in. Its not like we are training to be doctors, or anything more than first aiders.

As for the autodefib I did hear that it was on a region one pumper.... :roll:

Whats with the huge rolling of the eyes? Why do people get so annoyed when another brigade identifies a need for a piece of equipment, trains in it's use and purchases it? Oh no, they're in R1 and its a Pumper! Probably means that they are a busy brigade, know what they are doing and give a hoot about their fellow firies. OH NO.

When will people wake up and realise that there ARE brigades out there that have different equipment and training needs? As for all the Region 1 & 2 angst and hatred, get over it. So what if they happen to be the busiest areas of the state? Yeah, not every brigade needs everything, but there are some that do need a higher proportion and specification of equipment but its because of their local area. Its just the way it is.

I wonder what on earth would happen if people in the CFS didn't make decisions based on their brigade. If all these decisions were made based on the simple fact of whats best for the community. All the whining and mud slinging stems from "They get XYZ and we don't! NOT FAIR!". This seems to be the case for EVERYTHING from appliances, to equipment, even to response levels.

Should a house fire have been a 3rd alarm? No. But according to the grievance lodged by a brigade it should have been. Why? Because at a 3rd alarm they would have been called. Oh thats a healthy way to make decisions.

Don't get me wrong. There is a time for asking questions, but they need to be of a legitimate nature. Got a 15 year old 24 that is doing 300 calls a year? Yeah, I'd be asking questions about why brigades that do 20 calls a year are getting new/refurb trucks ahead of you. Got a 34P a few houses and a heap of scrub in your area, yet the neighboring town with a huge industrial estate gets a pumper? Stop whining and get over it.

[/Rant]
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 01:04:03 PM by 6739264 »
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Offline tft

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Re: Oxygen & AED stowage
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2008, 06:25:59 PM »
10/10

Offline boredmatrix

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Re: Oxygen & AED stowage
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2008, 08:09:06 PM »
[insert raputurous applauding smilie here]


numbers - I applaud someone who displays rational commonsense - on this forum it would appear to be at best - elusive!






Offline Robert

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Re: Oxygen & AED stowage
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2008, 10:41:47 PM »
Could not agree more!

Offline jaff

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Re: Oxygen & AED stowage
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2008, 11:20:52 PM »
Numbers for PM !.....Now what does pm stand for?  :roll:
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Offline Alan J

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Re: Oxygen & AED stowage
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2008, 02:55:31 AM »
What caused this massive crackdown on standard stowage? It seems like a rather pointless (at least from these somewhat biased opinions on here) rule that just filtered every one off.

Two reasons...
1.  $$$ - Regional managers have to come in under budget & AEDs & Oxy aren't budgetted.
That's ambo gear.
2.  CYA by OH&S directorate on truck load-outs. Over-weight trucks can get staff &
others charged with criminal offences. How many 8.5T & 9T Hinos were presented for
recertification a few years ago with (heavy) items missing? Remember too that the corporate
answer to the over-weight ones was a propsal to insert an air bladder in the tank to
reduce capacity to between 1200 & 1500L.
3.  Compared with (2), dead volunteers from heart attacks & the like are a less taxing
administrative nuisance.  Can be plausibly written-off as a personal issue, not
Service responsibility.
Anyway, fancy life-support gear is ambo responsibility. (see (1) above)

You can keep what's on your truck when the standard stowage rules were applied (was it
2004?)  But when it wears out, lots of luck trying to get a replacement approved.
 
Numbers & Boredmatrix are correct.  The most likely recipients of O2 & AED attention
are our own aging members. see (1) (2) & (3) above.

on that happy note, i think I'll go to bed.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 12:03:56 PM by Alan J »
Alan J.
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Knowledge isn't wisdom.

Offline 24pumper

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Re: Oxygen & AED stowage
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2008, 02:54:20 PM »

Anyway, fancy life-support gear is ambo responsibility. (see (1) above)


So should we take the, advanced fire fighting equipment currently on ambulances off (read dry powder extinguisher) as its a fire service responsibility.

AED's should not be viewed as super dooper advanced life support equipment, when they are put on walls in airports, shopping centres and other public places to assist in saving lives, that may be used by ppl with limited or no training, why are trained FF's less capable of using common sense than your average member of the public.

24p

Offline mattb

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Re: Oxygen & AED stowage
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2008, 05:55:30 PM »
Word has it that the manager of I&L has today issued an email stating that AED's are now approved to be carried on CFS appliances, they are not prescribed stowage but if a brigade has one donated to them, or they purchase one themselves they are now able to stow it on their vehicle.

I believe the decision had something to do with the fact that the training for these is now part of every first aid course and the fact that they are basically fool proof. It still doesn't help those of us pushing for 02 but it is good news for all I think.

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Re: Oxygen & AED stowage
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2008, 03:42:22 PM »
I am in 2 minds, yeah AED's are nice, but how long before we get sent to CAt 1's when SAAS are short, O2 would be better as we have to many documneted cases in my brigade of eneding it, can't remember the alst time we needed an AED. But hey, if the lions club gave us one at least we can add it to the truck.

Offline 6739264

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Re: Oxygen & AED stowage
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2008, 05:10:20 PM »
I am in 2 minds, yeah AED's are nice, but how long before we get sent to CAt 1's when SAAS are short, O2 would be better as we have to many documneted cases in my brigade of eneding it, can't remember the alst time we needed an AED. But hey, if the lions club gave us one at least we can add it to the truck.

Maybe when one of your crew goes "Oh my chest" and falls over?
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Offline OMGWTF

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Re: Oxygen & AED stowage
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2008, 11:21:33 PM »
mmm agreed numbers, however O2 is such a versatile tool...

both would be very nice, but if i could have only one, personally id tend towards the oxygen.

what do some of our ambo friends have to say?

Offline boredmatrix

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Re: Oxygen & AED stowage
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2008, 11:58:18 PM »
one would be nice but not the other?

don't know about you lot, but I like gravy on my roast beef....

...just like I like oxygen and a defib together!

some of you are future managers with these attitudes...

"why do we need it??"

6 months later the coroner recommends AED's on appliances after it's found a FF's death could probably have been prevented had the BASIC LIFE SUPPORT equipment been readily accessible....

"we definitely need AED and O2 resus kit on every appliance so this NEVER happens again......"



Please put your brains in the box on the way out the door.....

Offline 6739264

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Re: Oxygen & AED stowage
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2008, 12:02:26 AM »
mmm agreed numbers, however O2 is such a versatile tool...

Oh for sure, you'll use the O2 far more often that you ever would use the AED. Just pointing out that although the O2 is used for a range of reasons, the piece of equipment that could help deal directly with our leading cause of death is the AED. We really should have both.

Please put your brains in the box on the way out the door.....

Thank you very much. This is it in a nut shell.

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Offline SA Firey

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Re: Oxygen & AED stowage
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2008, 09:32:39 AM »
Word has it that the manager of I&L has today issued an email stating that AED's are now approved to be carried on CFS appliances, they are not prescribed stowage but if a brigade has one donated to them, or they purchase one themselves they are now able to stow it on their vehicle.

I believe the decision had something to do with the fact that the training for these is now part of every first aid course and the fact that they are basically fool proof. It still doesn't help those of us pushing for 02 but it is good news for all I think.

Correct Matt, we used the AED on our First Aid Course last December its foolproof.
Maybe the instructor is on the mark when he said all appliances would have it by end 2008?

Maybe upstairs is finally seeing sense in why we put submissions in to get the life saving equipment on appliances. :-)
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Offline jaff

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Re: Oxygen & AED stowage
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2008, 12:36:20 PM »
Why is everybody getting so outa shape about saving a fireys life with all this nooo fangled eheequipment, after all were just volunteers :roll: not like were politicians or anything special :evil:
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Re: Oxygen & AED stowage
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2008, 05:36:31 PM »
One thing that we all fail to see is that we are here to provide a community service,if we have members who are trained in the use of all this gear and are willing to help the community and SAAS then they should and now  have the right to buy the gear. as I keep saying in remote and Hill's area CFS can get into area's a lot faster and safer than SAAS but can also back up the local SAAS crew..Works well with in the Naracoorte group when the Naracoorte brigade is called to help SAAS...

Offline Zippy

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Re: Oxygen & AED stowage
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2008, 05:49:08 PM »
Spot on Bill!   Not only can AED's and Oxy set's benefit us to jobs that we typical respond to....It potentially can create further resources for SAAS to utilise for First Response to Cat1's.

Typical Radio Chatter for a SAAS general broadcast
Medical Case, Littlehampton, fireys first responding, Crew from City, IC from..Ashford.

(Takes only 3-4 cases to use up crews in the Hills to reach that situation)

you may only need command cars to have this equipment in the long run.

Some serious life saving can happen now.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 05:53:52 PM by Zippy »

Offline Pipster

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Re: Oxygen & AED stowage
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2008, 06:46:37 PM »
Or perhaps Vehicle accident Basket Range, car ex Mt Pleasant....

Not that the patient was hurt...but it would have been nice equipment to have, should it have been required......

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Offline mattb

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Re: Oxygen & AED stowage
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2008, 12:14:58 PM »
Quote
Spot on Bill!   Not only can AED's and Oxy set's benefit us to jobs that we typical respond to....It potentially can create further resources for SAAS to utilise for First Response to Cat1's.

CFA have been running a trial with first responders from CFA brigades responding to CAT 1 (not breathing / no pulse) since about the start of the year. From what I have heard there has been a couple of good saves with most people thinking it is generally a worth while exercise. You do have to pick people that are appropriate though as there is obviously going to be some fairly nasty situations that you would be sent to.

The way the SAAS manager was talking the other night at training it sounds like they are keen to significantly increase the number of first responders around the state and will be targetting people from the local CFS / SES/ Retained MFS stations for this sort of training. It doesn't sound like this will be a joint partnership with CFS and SAAS like the CFA model but more of 'do it if you want to' arrangement. I guess if people have the time to do the training and respond to the occasional call then it can only be a good thing.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 12:17:12 PM by mattb »

Offline mattb

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Re: Oxygen & AED stowage
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2008, 12:16:22 PM »
The official word on AED's from the Chief Officer.

Quote
CFS has moved to support the use of Automatic External Defibrillators (AED's) within the CFS as approved 'Prescribed Equipment'. This decision clears the way for AED's to be carried on CFS Vehicles - it does not mean that CFS will be purchasing and/or specifying AED's as part of the stowage kits on vehicles. Essentially, if a Brigade or Group has an AED, (ie: it may be donated to them) this decision clears the way for that equipment to be carried on appliances as approved equipment. Training for AED's is now part of the Senior First Aid Certificate.

Offline jaff

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Re: Oxygen & AED stowage
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2008, 01:33:42 PM »
The official word on AED's from the Chief Officer.

Quote
CFS has moved to support the use of Automatic External Defibrillators (AED's) within the CFS as approved 'Prescribed Equipment'. This decision clears the way for AED's to be carried on CFS Vehicles - it does not mean that CFS will be purchasing and/or specifying AED's as part of the stowage kits on vehicles. Essentially, if a Brigade or Group has an AED, (ie: it may be donated to them) this decision clears the way for that equipment to be carried on appliances as approved equipment. Training for AED's is now part of the Senior First Aid Certificate.




(1)How much is a emergency services suitable AED worth?

(2)How much is a emergency services volunteers life worth?

The answer to the second question by the powers that be would at a rough guess be, "The worth of emergency services volunteers to SA is priceless, the state could not hope to function properly without their tremendous work"

The answer to the first question will in no way take into account the answer to the second question! :-(  VIVA LA REVOLUTION  :evil:

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Offline 6739264

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Re: Oxygen & AED stowage
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2008, 01:49:59 PM »
You can get away with Question 1 Being about $3k

http://justfirsta.cart.net.au/details/2224406.html

This is what we use at work, they are very veyr handy...
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Offline Zippy

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Re: Oxygen & AED stowage
« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2008, 01:55:36 PM »
$1500-$2500ish for Phillips Brand.

for 250 units for the CFS:  $440,000    One or Two fire appliances.

https://secure.thelifeguardstore.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=146&idproduct=2301

Not only does it do Defibrillation,  Provides verbal First Aid instructions for when a shock isnt required.   "Breath...Breath...Breath...x 30,  Compress, Compress,  Analysing Heart Rate....Stand Clear,  Delievering electric current....done"
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 01:59:43 PM by Zippy »

Offline 6739264

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Re: Oxygen & AED stowage
« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2008, 02:13:19 PM »
$1500-$2500ish for Phillips Brand.
BAH! Phillips makes Walkmans and Steros, not life saving technology. I want to save someone, not make them play a tune.

The Zoll for $2995.95, you get:

    * Not pushing hard enough? It will tell you when to push harder.
    * Pushing hard enough? It will say, "Good compressions."
    * Not pushing fast enough? A metronome will lead you to the right rate.
    * It will even show you the depth of each compression. In real time.
    * Not yet started? The AED Plus will tell you again to get started.
    * Compressions stopped? It will tell you to continue.

As well as all your usual AED funtions. In my book, anything that needs to be used by CFS volunteers, needs to be as simple and retard proof as possible - If its going to be used outside of Region 1 that is ;)
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Offline JC

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Re: Oxygen & AED stowage
« Reply #49 on: August 22, 2008, 02:47:45 PM »
$1500-$2500ish for Phillips Brand.
BAH! Phillips makes Walkmans and Steros, not life saving technology. I want to save someone, not make them play a tune.

The Zoll for $2995.95, you get:

    * Not pushing hard enough? It will tell you when to push harder.
    * Pushing hard enough? It will say, "Good compressions."
    * Not pushing fast enough? A metronome will lead you to the right rate.
    * It will even show you the depth of each compression. In real time.
    * Not yet started? The AED Plus will tell you again to get started.
    * Compressions stopped? It will tell you to continue.

As well as all your usual AED funtions. In my book, anything that needs to be used by CFS volunteers, needs to be as simple and retard proof as possible - If its going to be used outside of Region 1 that is ;)



So id suggest you stay away from something like the zoll brand then. The phillips AED is full proof and doesnt overload you with instructions like some AEDs, aslong as your doing some form of compressions its better than doing none. If you have senior first aid you should know how to do cpr properly. Phillips also make the MRX defibs that SAAS carry.

It would be a huge plus for an appliance to carry O2 & AED and they WILLsave someones life one day whether it be a FF or member of the public will remain to be seen.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 03:00:06 PM by JC »
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