Author Topic: Oxygen & AED stowage (Read 39875 times)

CFS_Firey · « **Reply #75 on:** December 05, 2008, 03:17:26 PM »

Quote from: bajdas on December 05, 2008, 02:44:38 PM

Correct me if I am wrong, but if it is a multi-appliance incident that requires a command vehicle around, would you not have first-aid facilities already at the base for everyone (eg eye wash, smoke affected, exhaustion, small wounds, etc)?

The CFS uses command cars as spotters and strike team leaders, as well as for shipping around the big wigs. Usually any incident bigger than a 2 appliance response (including RCR, House fires, Hazmats etc), will have a at least one command car on scene. Using the principle that the same command cars will cover an entire group, it could make more sense to fit them out, rather than every fire appliance, which may not leave their own brigade area.

I agree that it makes more sense to have the AEDs on scene though - if a command car only ever goes to the group base, I don't think it's worth having and AED on it.

RescueHazmat · « **Reply #76 on:** December 05, 2008, 07:14:45 PM »

Quote from: CFS_Firey on December 05, 2008, 03:17:26 PM

Quote from: bajdas on December 05, 2008, 02:44:38 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but if it is a multi-appliance incident that requires a command vehicle around, would you not have first-aid facilities already at the base for everyone (eg eye wash, smoke affected, exhaustion, small wounds, etc)?

The CFS uses command cars as spotters and strike team leaders, as well as for shipping around the big wigs. Usually any incident bigger than a 2 appliance response (including RCR, House fires, Hazmats etc), will have a at least one command car on scene. Using the principle that the same command cars will cover an entire group, it could make more sense to fit them out, rather than every fire appliance, which may not leave their own brigade area.

I agree that it makes more sense to have the AEDs on scene though - if a command car only ever goes to the group base, I don't think it's worth having and AED on it.

Extract: Usually any incident bigger than a 2 appliance response (including RCR, House fires, Hazmats etc), will have a at least one command car on scene.

- Not at any 2+ appliance job ive ever been at!.. Sure rural jobs maybe, but what about all the over resourced prangs and car fires, alarms and rubbish like that.. - I have only seen Command Cars at 2 Alarm incidents or above.. - Is that what you meant?

misterteddy · « **Reply #77 on:** December 05, 2008, 09:02:22 PM »

Quote from: mattb on December 05, 2008, 08:40:49 AM

Just wondering if other brigades have started purchasing AED's yet.

Our Group has now got one in each Command Car and each brigade is likely to get one (due to some second hand ones being donated) my brigade is about to purchase at least another one - possibly two depending on how another grant application goes.

Should the CFS be recommending a particular brand or model, or do we just leave it up to brigades to purchase whatever they like.

I've got a few quotes on different models but am still not sure which one to go for, and reading some of the info on here confused the situation a bit more. Anyone got an suggestions for up to $3000.

mattB.....at the probable risk of being hammered again as a salesman, here is my summary of what to look for;

a. device delivers at least 150J of energy. There is no data to confirm the optimal setting, but in my experience less than 15oJ is less likely to be sufficient - again, personal opinion
b. you want the device to be a minimum of IPX5 rated....this relates to its water proofness....it correlates to its dust proofness as well...which as u know is an issue in appliances.
c. Minimum of 5 year battery and electrode life...they are expensive to replace....about $180 a set.
d. You want the electrodes pre-connected to the machine.....in an emergency, time counts and clumsy fingers will be present
e. don't pay more than $2200 for a unit.....there are good examples under or around that
f. whoever u get your unit from, u should get a free training session for all of your crew - and get hands on fitting it to a manikin, not just a talk.
g. dont be fooled by the sales gimmicks like the depth measure etc....see my comments on this post earlier....they arent a good indicator of adequate compression (according to the Australian guidelines)

I think thats about it....if u want further advice....pm me if u like, otherwise no doubt some sooky la-la will get all ansy

I have a document with a single technical comparison for all common brands of AEDs on the market if you are interested, but i cant post it with this reply as the file is too big If you want a copy leave your email on here and I'll send it through There is a second document which is of a newer one that is on the market that I havent had a chance to incorporate into the larger document....please compare them all and see what suits u guys

as for other Brigades....yes there are at least 7 that I know that have them. Most of them are on rural response appliances - if u think the ambos or the command car will get to u in 4 minutes, then u probably dont need one on that appliance...otherwise please consider, as they say.

Theres probably no value in the CFS recommending a single model, their technology changes that frequently that it would make it mostly superfluous....and lets face it, no-one follows those rules anyway with anything else..lol. As I said in my original post, ALL of the units on the market deliver a shock when the button is pushed....thats what counts - the rest is but incidental

OMGWTF · « **Reply #78 on:** December 06, 2008, 06:07:57 AM »

I think its more likely to be beneficial to the brigade being on the appliance used for primary rural response, as this is where the old fat vollunteer fire men are likely to run up a hill then cark it. This is also when SAAS are likely to have a longer response time, due to the fact that you might be up the boon docks but also they dont auto dispatch to rural fires.

However, it would be more beneficial to the community/publis being on the urban response appliance, for road crash, structure fires, special service calls, etc. In this case though we are more likely to have a faster response from saas or even have them on scene to begin with.

So really depends on the reasoning behind purchase... I'd lean towards putting it on the truck for the firies protection though.

OMGWTF · « **Reply #79 on:** December 06, 2008, 06:14:09 AM »

Quote from: RescueHazmat on December 05, 2008, 07:14:45 PM

- Not at any 2+ appliance job ive ever been at!.. Sure rural jobs maybe, but what about all the over resourced prangs and car fires, alarms and rubbish like that.. - I have only seen Command Cars at 2 Alarm incidents or above.. - Is that what you meant?

Geeez.... mate, you need to spend some time in my group. Cant sneeze without falling over a command car.

boredmatrix · « **Reply #80 on:** December 06, 2008, 12:43:50 PM »

trust trust trust......where's the trust Trev?

mattb · « **Reply #81 on:** December 07, 2008, 07:55:27 AM »

Quote

I think thats about it....if u want further advice....pm me if u like, otherwise no doubt some sooky la-la will get all ansy

Thanks misterteddy, PM sent to you regarding this.

As for the whole rural truck v urban truck issue, there is probably no right or wrong answer. Our whole theory behind the purchase was that it was there for our primary use and if we can use it on a member of the public then that is great too. The likelihood of one of our guys going down on the fireground is reasonably high, the chance of having a SAAS or St John unit on scene within four minutes is very low so at least we can try do and do something ourselves. Murphys Law however will ensure that what ever truck is carrying the AED will be in a completely different part of the fire ground though.

In an ideal situation all trucks would have one - and that is what we are trying to do. No doubt once someone dies from a heart attack on the fireground they will end up as part of the standard stowage kit.

CFS_Firey · « **Reply #82 on:** December 08, 2008, 02:41:42 PM »

Quote from: RescueHazmat on December 05, 2008, 07:14:45 PM

- Not at any 2+ appliance job ive ever been at!.. Sure rural jobs maybe, but what about all the over resourced prangs and car fires, alarms and rubbish like that.. - I have only seen Command Cars at 2 Alarm incidents or above.. - Is that what you meant?

Yeah, re-reading that the 2 appliance comment was a bit stupid. Would it be safe to say any incident that's a worthwhile incident? (Structure fires, Rescues, Going-well grassfires etc?)

mattb · « **Reply #83 on:** January 13, 2009, 10:02:05 AM »

Just thought I would update our situation at Morphett Vale in regards to the AED's.

We have been successful in gaining two grants for the purchase of AED's. After some consultation and a bit of investigation we are looking at getting two of the Lifeline Defibtech units http://www.defibtech.com/. There are other units around that have more bells and whistles but for robustness and ease of use these seem to the be pretty good. Apparently the service from the company is very good as well. There is a good demo on their website of how easy it is to use if you are interested.

We have some training organised from the supplier in the specific use of these units as well as some general AED training for those that haven't done it on their first aid course yet.

I know of one other brigade that has also received a grant for one, anyone else buying them yet ??

SA Firey · « **Reply #84 on:** January 15, 2009, 06:38:51 PM »

quote/
I know of one other brigade that has also received a grant for one, anyone else buying them yet ??

Not for lack of trying, but someome just keeps us doing more submissions and then says NO anyway

mattb · « **Reply #85 on:** January 16, 2009, 09:54:12 AM »

Jeff, are you talking about grant application being rejected, or do you mean someone is not allowing you to purchase an AED and carry it on your appliance ??

Or are you referring to Oxygen therapy gear, in which case I think it may be time to have another crack at getting it approved.

whiteknight · « **Reply #86 on:** February 03, 2009, 04:04:14 PM »

Quote from: chook on August 16, 2008, 08:27:36 AM

Bill it may be standard stowage for CFS RCR but O2 is not listed in the equipment list in the Road Crash Rescue directory. And this is the "bible".
And why should it? RCR brigades/units/teams role in life is to provide a Rescue capability, not be a "super team" that does everything!
Last time I looked into a SAAS bus they carried all of that stuff & based on recent events they would be paged to a RCR job before rescue, so why carry gear you don't need! It's just more training & maintenance you need to do.
On the other hand ask yourself why Inland marine don't carry O2? Would have thought the need was greater. If you want to take on the Paramedics job as well become a community responder unit for SAAS & all of the training & equipment needs would be coveeed by them
I think it's about time that CFS & it's people start looking at every wildfire enquiry in Australia since Ash Wednesday. Hidden in the pages somewhere is a recommendation that the Lead agency for wildfire (CFA,RFS,CFS)needs to focus on their core business - combating wildfire! Thats why in the states that have tried to combine their emergency services, there is still a volunteer "bush" fire brigade.
So in my humble opinion stop worrying about some piece of gear that someone else has (& something we have never missed) & just focus on what you have got & need.
cheers

So the core business of the CFA (Victoria) is wildfire?

So why do they protect over half of the urban area of Melbourne and all of the rest of the state including Geelong (pop 160,000), Ballarat (80,000) and Bendigo (80,000)?

So why do they have seven aerial appliances (Bronto's, Telebooms)?

So why do they employ 480 career firefighters (that's firefighters - not support staff).

So why in comparison do they have a greater structural/rescue/hazmat capacity than the SA MFS.

Because you say their core business is wildfires? - I think not.

chook · « **Reply #87 on:** February 03, 2009, 04:34:31 PM »

Interesting point Whiteknight - so who's core business is it? Considering last weeks activities in Victoria.
Flood & Storm is SES core business in every state, but my last two units did far more RCR in a year than storm damage - still SES core business!
Yes I appreciate the fact that the CFA has moved from its rural volunteer back ground.
But as I said if it's not your primary role - then who is doing the wild fire fire fighting (don't worry I already know the answer).
And no offence was meant.

cheers

jason · « **Reply #88 on:** February 03, 2009, 08:20:53 PM »

chook!!! u have no idea, your posts crack me up!!! get a life!

bittenyakka · « **Reply #89 on:** February 03, 2009, 10:13:09 PM »

Don't get personal..

get back on topic or make a new core business thread.

chook · « **Reply #90 on:** February 04, 2009, 04:58:26 AM »

Thanks for your constructive input Jason - its not I who should get a life chief!
Read what was written properly & both you & Whiteknight jump in at the last minute Whiteknights comments were at least sensible.
And while I'm at it how about you read the coroner's/ Judicial reports re: bush fires in Vic & SA since Ash Wednesday (including Ash Wednesday)- funny the judges say the same thing!
Anyway again thanks for your insightful comments - really increased our collective thoughts on the subject.
cheers

SA Firey · « **Reply #91 on:** February 04, 2009, 07:58:11 AM »

Quote from: mattb on January 16, 2009, 09:54:12 AM

Jeff, are you talking about grant application being rejected, or do you mean someone is not allowing you to purchase an AED and carry it on your appliance ??

Or are you referring to Oxygen therapy gear, in which case I think it may be time to have another crack at getting it approved.

Just the gear Matt

mattb · « **Reply #92 on:** February 05, 2009, 07:54:23 PM »

I am wondering if some of the people out there that carry 02 therapy gear on their appliance can tell me (or put up a pic or two) what type of kits they are carrying. I am interested in seeing what other brigades have purchased and what they actually use.

I am wondering whether we actually need to carry a suction kit ??

I am thinking that a few various sized masks, bag and mask and a variety of Oropharyngeal airways might be main things we need, I guess a cylinder and tubing would also be handy

If someone could supply the brand and model numbers of the kits they have that would be useful.

misterteddy · « **Reply #93 on:** February 05, 2009, 08:57:20 PM »

email inbound over the weekend Matt

SA Firey · « **Reply #94 on:** February 05, 2009, 09:27:02 PM »

Matt, most brigades have the Oxy-Viva Resuscitator 3 which are getting a bit old, but there are a later version and comes in a kit the same as MFS carry on board.

The advantage with the Oxy-Viva was it also had suction capabilty.

boredmatrix · « **Reply #95 on:** February 05, 2009, 09:56:59 PM »

Quote from: mattb on February 05, 2009, 07:54:23 PM

I am wondering whether we actually need to carry a suction kit ??

depends how many ppol you plan on drowning.....

straps · « **Reply #96 on:** February 06, 2009, 11:39:29 AM »

Quote

The advantage with the Oxy-Viva was it also had suction capabilty.

At the expense of having oxygen to deliver... (it uses your oxygen to provide suction).
I reckon a hand operated pump will suffice.

I also not a fan of demand oxygen for lay persons or for Health proessionals - Stick with BVM, I reckon.

Cheers
Shane

boredmatrix · « **Reply #97 on:** February 07, 2009, 08:33:40 PM »

er - demand oxygen? Isn't anything that comes out when you turn the cylinder or outlet on - on demand?

or are you making reference to oxygen POWERED resuscitation devices which deliver oxygen under greater pressures?

straps · « **Reply #98 on:** February 07, 2009, 08:53:05 PM »

Thanks for the pick up, BM..

and YES thats what I was referring to.

mattb · « **Reply #99 on:** March 06, 2009, 08:45:52 PM »

Does anyone have a completed CFS risk assesment for the stowage and use of Oxygen Therapy equipment.

I know that a number of brigades are carrying it so I assume that someone has probably done a risk assesment at some stage on it. I am trying to avoid re-inventing the wheel, if someone else would be kind enough to send me theirs it would be greatly appreciated.