Author Topic: Plantation firefighting (pretty much also Scrub firefighting)  (Read 10482 times)

Offline Zippy

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Plantation firefighting (pretty much also Scrub firefighting)
« on: December 08, 2008, 02:17:50 PM »
i recently did the plantation course, and found the method hose laying quite ingenius and the theory knowledge worthwhile,  has anyone else got opinions of the course?

rescue5271

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Re: Plantation firefighting (pretty much also Scrub firefighting)
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2008, 05:22:11 AM »
Its a great couirse and some of the hoselaying can also be used for urban fire's.

Offline 6739264

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Re: Plantation firefighting (pretty much also Scrub firefighting)
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2008, 06:54:01 AM »
Woah there boy... Plantation and scrub are two very different beasts!

mmm, as are Urban and Plantation jobs...
To think they employed me as a drooling retard...

Offline Zippy

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Re: Plantation firefighting (pretty much also Scrub firefighting)
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2008, 07:03:38 AM »
nah urban fires are entirely separate (Rolled, Bowled and fixed lengths)

numbers, i tend to disagree...there is the oppunity to use the same techniques you use at a plantation, at a scrub fire.


Offline 6739264

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Re: Plantation firefighting (pretty much also Scrub firefighting)
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2008, 10:37:58 PM »
nah urban fires are entirely separate (Rolled, Bowled and fixed lengths)

numbers, i tend to disagree...there is the oppunity to use the same techniques you use at a plantation, at a scrub fire.

Ok then, I'll throw some money at the fact that your fancy plantation hoselays gets tangled in about 30 seconds when you try to use it in thick scrub. If you honestly think that major parts of the plantation course can be applied to general Scrub firefighting, then go back and do the course again. Everything is different from the fuel loads, to the type of product combusting, to the ease of access and egress.

Please do elaborate on your rolled/bowled/'fixed' length theories of urban firefighting...

Its a great couirse and some of the hoselaying can also be used for urban fire's.

I've been racking my brain all night and I can't for the life of me work out what hoselays you're talking about?
To think they employed me as a drooling retard...

misterteddy

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Re: Plantation firefighting (pretty much also Scrub firefighting)
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2008, 06:28:55 AM »
I've been racking my brain all night and I can't for the life of me work out what hoselays you're talking about?

all night?....numbers....you're worrying me son

Offline Zippy

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Re: Plantation firefighting (pretty much also Scrub firefighting)
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2008, 06:40:42 AM »
Quote
Please do elaborate on your rolled/bowled/'fixed' length theories of urban firefighting...

sorry, was under the influence of tiredness yesterday at work....  Well refering the Rolled/Bowled > Dutch rolling of 38's and 64's for urban use (or flaked when possible..not possible for me yet :()   and saying Fixed length inregards to the length of the hoselay...generally its two lengths? and thats enough?


Numbers, in regards to Scrub fire use...how about Lightining fire attack?  and saying u have to go 4 lengths into a scrubie area (commonly known as cleland).
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 06:42:34 AM by Zippy »

Offline bittenyakka

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Re: Plantation firefighting (pretty much also Scrub firefighting)
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2008, 09:53:27 AM »
I haven't done the plantation course but have used the gear. In clealand, and it worked really well relative to carrying rolled stuff in and then trying to unroll it in a 5 m clearing.

Offline 6739264

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Re: Plantation firefighting (pretty much also Scrub firefighting)
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2008, 10:51:17 AM »
all night?....numbers....you're worrying me son

I worry a lot of people, my brain lacks that little 'shut off' function.

sorry, was under the influence of tiredness yesterday at work....  Well refering the Rolled/Bowled > Dutch rolling of 38's and 64's for urban use (or flaked when possible..not possible for me yet :()   and saying Fixed length inregards to the length of the hoselay...generally its two lengths? and thats enough?

It all depends, there is not hard and fast, or 'fixed' rule. If you pull up to a standard house in the suburbs, and the front door is meters away from the road, then yes, 2 lengths of 38mm will get you into and around all of that house, but how often is that the case outside of the suburbs? In the hills you have driveways that the trucks can't fit down, long driveways etc etc...

We all need to be able to adapt and get out of thinking that there is a set way to do anything, there are so many variables!

Numbers, in regards to Scrub fire use...how about Lightining fire attack?  and saying u have to go 4 lengths into a scrubie area (commonly known as cleland).

Lightning fire attack? As in needing to get into a small fire started by lighning? or a form of Blitzkrieg? I'll go with the former. I don't know what your usual rural drill was, but we're getting our hosereel to work and then adding lengths off the end of that, if need be. Yeah dropping a roll of hose in scrub can be a pain some times, but thats what the downhilll slope is for, drop and run!

I can understand some of what you are saying though and yes the manner in which the hose can be dropped on the ground and run out is good, but you often don't have areas in scrub to take 30m of hose and run with it straight out.

All in all, I just get worried when I see people doing a course and going "wow this is awesome, lets use it for ALL these purposes" its a case of having a small amount of information and training and then taking it and using for things that it's not meant to be used for. A small amount of information is a very dangerous thing sometimes. I think that plantation strategies are great... for plantation fires, but I don't want to see people getting to work with 38mm lines and breaching pieces in scrub, it's a totally different ball game.
To think they employed me as a drooling retard...

Offline Zippy

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Re: Plantation firefighting (pretty much also Scrub firefighting)
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2008, 11:07:49 AM »
Quote
"wow this is awesome, lets use it for ALL these purposes"

im saying it'd be pretty cool to use it where possible.

Quote
I worry a lot of people, my brain lacks that little 'shut off' function.

Blame the computer for that ;)
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 11:09:22 AM by Zippy »

Offline bittenyakka

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Re: Plantation firefighting (pretty much also Scrub firefighting)
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2008, 12:58:57 PM »

All in all, I just get worried when I see people doing a course and going "wow this is awesome, lets use it for ALL these purposes" its a case of having a small amount of information and training and then taking it and using for things that it's not meant to be used for. A small amount of information is a very dangerous thing sometimes. I think that plantation strategies are great... for plantation fires, but I don't want to see people getting to work with 38mm lines and breaching pieces in scrub, it's a totally different ball game.

I agree that a small amount of information can be dangerous BUT.

Why shouldn't we see more usage of 38s and breaching pieces in scrub? (examples) I saw it used very effectively on KI and once again have worked with it in Clealand although no at going job, just small burns.

If anything i found the weight of the 38s was a minor consideration considering the speed we were able to mop up at simply because of the extra water.

Offline 6739264

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Re: Plantation firefighting (pretty much also Scrub firefighting)
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2008, 01:43:08 PM »
I agree that a small amount of information can be dangerous BUT.

Why shouldn't we see more usage of 38s and breaching pieces in scrub? (examples) I saw it used very effectively on KI and once again have worked with it in Clealand although no at going job, just small burns.

If anything i found the weight of the 38s was a minor consideration considering the speed we were able to mop up at simply because of the extra water.

There are two things to consider though, you're talking about weight not being an issue whilst mopping up, as well as the volume of water. For inital knockdown and chasing a running fire through scrub, the 25mm is nice and easy to handle, lightweight and can be effectively managed by a single person in a pinch. But you no doubt start to notice that pulling multiple lengths along can get very tiring very quickly. People in the CFS tend to have an attitude about structure fires that using the HP reel is quicker and easier to handle than a line of 38mm. If people are having issues using 38mm hose in a building, they are going to a world of trouble trying to use it for agressive scrub fire knockdown.

Im sure that in certain circustances, such as controlled burns and large scale, slow moving mopping up operations, 38mm and plantation style hose lays might well work, I just feel that when people make comments such as Plantation Firefighting = Scrub firfighting, then they've missed the point of the course, and that is a very dangerous thing.
To think they employed me as a drooling retard...

Offline Zippy

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Re: Plantation firefighting (pretty much also Scrub firefighting)
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2008, 01:57:49 PM »
the trainers do explain that the skills taught in the course can be used in the scrub environment..."part of the toolkit" if that makes sense.

FYI, my brigade doesnt even have figure of 8 hose, but it has been investigated, and possibly deemed a bit too much effort to setup.

the present standard is Double dutch rolled with Crossovers to bind the roll.

Offline 6739264

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Re: Plantation firefighting (pretty much also Scrub firefighting)
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2008, 02:08:34 PM »
the trainers do explain that the skills taught in the course can be used in the scrub environment..."part of the toolkit" if that makes sense.

Thats cool, sorry I was just a bit taken aback with your very broad generalisation in the title. For sure, everything is a tool to put in the tool box and people need to remember this - it makes us all better firefighters. It's just been my experience that people latch onto something new that they don't fully understand and try to use it when its not appropriate (eg: CFB)

Its like using Blu-Tack to fill a round hole, rather than trying to jam the square block in there.
To think they employed me as a drooling retard...

Offline Zippy

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Re: Plantation firefighting (pretty much also Scrub firefighting)
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2008, 02:11:00 PM »
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Its like using Blu-Tack to fill a round hole, rather than trying to jam the square block in there.

DENSO !! :P

Offline 6739264

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Re: Plantation firefighting (pretty much also Scrub firefighting)
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2008, 02:28:57 PM »
Quote
Its like using Blu-Tack to fill a round hole, rather than trying to jam the square block in there.

DENSO !! :P

I was going for something that was EASY to mold... :P
To think they employed me as a drooling retard...

misterteddy

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Re: Plantation firefighting (pretty much also Scrub firefighting)
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2008, 11:07:49 PM »
[Its like using Blu-Tack to fill a round hole, rather than trying to jam the square block in there.

the filtered will fit...u just have to push it harder.....and use a hammer if needed  :evil: right tool...right job.....bigger tool, every job.......no wait...that sounds wrong doesnt it ??

Offline Zippy

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Re: Plantation firefighting (pretty much also Scrub firefighting)
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2008, 06:57:52 AM »
hazmat fulfils lots of fantasy's lol

Offline Alan J

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Re: Plantation firefighting (pretty much also Scrub firefighting)
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2008, 08:02:38 AM »
i recently did the plantation course, and found the method hose laying quite ingenius and the theory knowledge worthwhile,  has anyone else got opinions of the course?

I thought it was good stuff to know.
Some techniques could be adapted into what we already do to make life easier.
Like abandoning fig.8 collecting of hose & carrying them back to the truck.
Thinking instead one person to grab the middle of each length (would need to
be marked) and another grab the couplings to keep thread from damage, & drag
the bit in between. Two people should be able to bring in 2 lengths of 64 on
about 1/4 of the effort of carrying. They should be able to bring in even more
lengths of smaller stuff for less effort than 2 carried lenths.

"Make Safe" command formalises something we should always have been doing
before adding a length.

It was nice to do a guided practical fuel loading appraisal.

cheers
Alan J.
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