Author Topic: first-aid training  (Read 26079 times)

Offline bajdas

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first-aid training
« on: December 29, 2008, 02:40:05 PM »
My last refresher course in first-aid competency was not delivered by St John's or Red Cross. I have found several companies (small & large) who now have a Registered Training Organisation status & can deliver the Senior First-Aid course.

One of the reasons the organisation went with the other company was the reduced cost.

Firstly, I believe all MFS and all SES people have the qualification. Is this still a restricted qualification to a few within each CFS brigade (excluding rescue brigades) ?

I am curious because another thread was talking about deployment of AED's & if not everyone has the qualification....then wouldn't the money be better spent in training the other members ?

Do people believe this is a good change in extra RTO's being able to deliver training courses in (eg Public Safety standard) better in the long term ?

Personally, I think it was great because the course included some extra components to match the audience needs, rather than 'from the book'.
Andrew Macmichael
lives at Pt Noarlunga South.

My personal opinion only.

Offline jaff

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Re: first-aid training
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2008, 04:55:35 PM »
I hear there is a push to have a fireised version of first aid, CPR, Burns, Bites as an add on for BFF1, not a full certified course but a common fireground first aid thing!
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Offline Baxter

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Re: first-aid training
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2008, 06:17:38 PM »
I hear there is a push to have a fireised version of first aid, CPR, Burns, Bites as an add on for BFF1, not a full certified course but a common fireground first aid thing!

They do say a little bit of knowledge can a dangerous thing Jaff

You are so right Bajdas why is it restricted in the CFS to one member in a rural Brigade. for those who want to come to the CFS defence please read the SFEC handbook (2000) for rural brigades it is in black and white.

It may not be used every time the truck rolls or at a high rate but I know from my own experience that once work finds out that your in the CFS they believe that your the 1st aider expert. I have also heard from my own experience which sound a bit like an ad that those who have done the course have used it in their own private lives with family and friends.

AED have been included as part of the SFA course and there are case studies that have shown that AED have been able to identify a pulse where the first aider has not been able to which have lead to complications.

From memory I believe that the CFS has a an agreement with external RTO's to sub contract that (SFA) training out. We could create a hole new discussion here on RTO status of ESO's in SA if they should be or not and how many
keep it simple for sanity skes please

Offline jaff

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Re: first-aid training
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2008, 01:14:52 AM »
Your right Malleefire, they do say "A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing" but they also say "Be prepared" and  "Shitt happens", so when shitt happens and you don't have the one fully accredited first aider on the appliance, hopefully someone will have done a intro to first aid and possibly be better prepared to render assistance, till futher help arrives.
Apparently the suggestion is too not replace the full First aid course, but give all new firefighters a basic introduction to the more common fireground medical emergency that we are likely to encounter.
I for one would not care if the person that is performing CPR on me doesn't have all the certified qualifications, when someone goes down and is unresponsive with no pulse they need help immediately.
If a tailored intro during BFF1 gives someone the confidence and the basic First aid skills to be of some assistance instead of being a panicked helpless onlooker its worthwhile.
Personally I think every CFS vollie should be First Aid trained, but at the moment budgetary restraints preclude it, so maybe this would help partially fill a knowledge void, until the member hopefully becomes a fully certified First Aider.
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Offline SA Firey

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Re: first-aid training
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2008, 09:06:22 AM »
Last Senior First Aid course I did was done by St Johns, and it also covered use of the AED's, and to quote the instructor "all CFS appliances will have them by end 2008" well its nearly the end of the year and I havent seen any yet!!

Most groups usually advise when there is a course running and its up to those to nominate to get on it.
It is not restricted to one member of any brigade and with the amount of rural brigades involved in strike teams from time to time, the more that you have First Aid accredited the better, in the event something happens.

With all the focus on OHS&W by CFS, I would have thought that would be a priority as well as the Safe Off Road Driver Training!!
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Offline boredmatrix

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Re: first-aid training
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2008, 02:30:56 PM »
the biggest advantage with private training organisations is that the courses can be tailored for the environment of the client and still be covered under the RTO regulations - St Jacks and Red Cross are hesitant to do this for some reason......or maybe it's just too hard and they think that people should just do what they're told....

....little wonder they're becoming irrelvant.....

rescue5271

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Re: first-aid training
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2008, 03:36:15 PM »
There is  a private company down this way that does first aid,auto defib and other first aid training..they are part of a group of Ambulance officers who work for thhis company they are able to do session in any location wheer as ST Johns wont. there costing is a lot cheaper but the best part is that you are being trained by Ambulance officers who have the skills and life skills and so they know first hand what we have to deal with...

Sorry ST JOHNS but you need to be more flexable and it would be nice if some of your members did have life skills rather than book skills.....

Offline boredmatrix

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Re: first-aid training
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2008, 04:19:21 PM »
it would be nice if some of your members did have life skills rather than book skills.....

is that not the whole organisation in a nutshell with your one line there???

Offline JC

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Re: first-aid training
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2008, 10:05:48 AM »
the biggest advantage with private training organisations is that the courses can be tailored for the environment of the client and still be covered under the RTO regulations - St Jacks and Red Cross are hesitant to do this for some reason......or maybe it's just too hard and they think that people should just do what they're told....

....little wonder they're becoming irrelvant.....

Couldnt agree more BM, if you cant tailor your course to be site/area specific while still covering the competencies required for the subject, a company will find themselves losing customers quickly. If your training provider wont allow you to include collars, Adv resus & AED on a first aid course then find a new one.
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misterteddy

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Re: first-aid training
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2008, 01:34:50 PM »
the biggest advantage with private training organisations is that the courses can be tailored for the environment of the client and still be covered under the RTO regulations - St Jacks and Red Cross are hesitant to do this for some reason......or maybe it's just too hard and they think that people should just do what they're told....

....little wonder they're becoming irrelvant.....

Couldnt agree more BM, if you cant tailor your course to be site/area specific while still covering the competencies required for the subject, a company will find themselves losing customers quickly. If your training provider wont allow you to include collars, Adv resus & AED on a first aid course then find a new one.

as a company that delivers first aid training, I'd offer my observations (along with that caveat)

1. There is a list of prescribed content that needs to be covered in a Senior First Aid course to be awarded the current Safework SA accredited unit of competence HLTFA301B Apply First Aid. This content is more than is covered in the Public Safety Units which do not meet the new Safework SA crietria.

2. Yes, you can always add and adapt training to fit in extra things, like cervical collars, and Advanced Resus (all companies should be providing AED training as a part of any course with CPR in it - if they don't, ditch them now). The reality is that just including the proper use and application of collars AND advanced resus to a course of 15 people would add another hour and a half at least - my experience tells me that most CFS people dont want that on top of the other mandatory inclusions. As we move down the online/ e-learning path, that might change a little, but until those products improve in validity, i wouldn't go down that path. If you want to see a dumbed down first aid e-learning program, check out St Johns new one. Some companies, like mine and 4Life and State Training Services  do a little more in the Advanced resus courses, which is mostly aimed at RCR Brigades. We (my company) include a session on collars and info on patient handling aids (Pat slides and spinal imobilisation devices) that they are likely to encounter (or in the case of Pat slides use) or have to assist with. The gist of the paragraph...is that it is certainly possible to add content, but it does cost ...and its mostly in time. To go over 1 day for Senior First Aid for any company is commercial suicide, thats why it is easier to fit other material into specialist courses like Advanced Resus....or First Aid refreshers.

3. I have spent a lot of time, along with numerous other people far more prominent than
i,in meetings around Australia trying to convince people that First Aid is a LIFE skill, not a WORK skill. Just doing the bare minimum u need to work in a vehicle accident, fireground or rescue environment as a firefighter or emergency worker(as was the thinking when the Public Safety Training Package First Aid  units were developed), may not be enough to help you save your child or mother's life at home or down the beach. The changes in stance from all States Workcover authorities to endorse one single Unit (Apply First Aid) reflects a move towards acknowledging this. Qld has been the best example of picking up the life skill concept - all Yr 11 and 12 students do Senior First Aid in school, just at the time they commence driving - a great initiative.

So what for First Aid in the CFS? Its all about money - no surprise there. But, the CFS went to a huge amount of effort and expense in adopting Nationally Recognised qualifications as a basis for their training, and one of the benefits that was touted was the tranferrability of such training to people's private employment and personal lives. Seems like First Aid would be a walk up start to further support that concept.

As for the SAAS and first responder issues - watch this space. It will happen, sometime soon we (thats ALL firefighters of both varieties and SES types) will get paged to SAAS jobs (collapses, SOBs and cardiac cases) as first responders with O2 and an AED. Its been run passed CFS Executive and they have endorsed it in principle. SAAS will buy the gear and potentially (maybe, at this stage.....but most likely probably) assist with the training. Same same SAPOL, Security firms, Private companies, and a whole bunch of associated other people. SAAS commitment is to get a (AED/O2) response to a collapsed person inside 4 minutes by whatever means it can - if it can do that, then we will have a worlds best system (nowhere else in the world comes close to that), we WILL be a part of that, so hang on for the ride  :-D

Offline jaff

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Re: first-aid training
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2008, 01:50:34 PM »
Sounds like a Quantum shift in thinking Tedster, the 4 minute time factor will always be a stumbling block for most brigades, command vehicles with AEDs and O2 on board may be a chance to make it in the 4 minute time frame, but either way, if it provides a greater safety margin for ESOs and the general public......bring it on!
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Offline Robert-Robert34

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Re: first-aid training
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2008, 03:11:32 PM »
It would be much easier for SAAS to establish community first response units in the towns that dont have an SA Ambulance station and train the CFS volunteers to use the equipment  :wink:
« Last Edit: December 31, 2008, 03:13:54 PM by Robert-Robert34 »
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misterteddy

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Re: first-aid training
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2008, 05:42:15 PM »
Sounds like a Quantum shift in thinking Tedster, the 4 minute time factor will always be a stumbling block for most brigades, command vehicles with AEDs and O2 on board may be a chance to make it in the 4 minute time frame, but either way, if it provides a greater safety margin for ESOs and the general public......bring it on!

Quantum leap indeed Jaff...and thats just the tip of the proverbial iceberg, theres a whole bunch more waaay out of the square thinking to come out of the SAAS thing, its all about getting to people who need it quicker than the current 9 minutes, doesnt matter who gets there, so long as someone does.....but i wont steal their thunder....interesting times we live in.

And the command car option is definitely the go...1 or 2 people and go for it....excellent resource (if you can get them away from Group Officers  :wink:)...lol

rescue5271

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Re: first-aid training
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2008, 05:51:42 PM »
Robert, SAAS have them.......

Offline Baxter

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Re: first-aid training
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2008, 06:17:41 PM »
I have always been staunch believer Jaff with the senior first aid the more trained the better for the communit and the CFS or for every one. I know that in the  Brigade that I am from in the last 6 month and this was in a 1 month period we had 12 members trained in senior first aid and two complete refresher courses. By the way this is not a rcr brigade (i think the picture and the signature may give a small clue as to the type of brigade I am from). I would prefer the CFS do it the same way that SES have done it but include emergency first aid as a foundation unit in BF1.

Mr Teddy i have heard the same comment as well about the CFS adopting a more SAAS role which I think is marvelous. I don't think command cars are the way to go as the nearest command car is some 90 km away. During some parts of the year we average 1 ambo a fortnight to the town for a category 2 case. The placement needs to be done logically and consultativly if they want to achieve a person on sight within 4 - 9 minutes. I know we are not the only Brigade that has this same prediciment.

Mr Teddy your comment about members being reluctant to attend longer or additional training for first aid components I can say from the brigade that I am from that in addition to the 12 completing the SFA they also completed Ad Resus, O2 and casualty handling that same weekend with no problems.

I am in no way having a dig but if you engage the Brigade and the community the right way they can be supportive of the training and willing to do the training if communicated with correctly.
keep it simple for sanity skes please

Offline chook

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Re: first-aid training
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2008, 06:19:04 PM »
thanks misterteddy, you covered of the bit I was going to mention about minimum requirements.
Robert to achieve what you are after is to guarantee a response - every time!
Volunteer ESO's can't guarantee that 24/7 - infact some brigade/units can't even match their legislative requirements 24/7 - so why add to the workload?
I find it astounding that some want to increase the CFS's responsibilities, yet key findings from the various enquiries has highlighted the need for the CFS to focus on it's core activities - bush fire fighting.
Now I know that some will find this somewhat offensive but remember not everyone is up to the level of your particular brigade.
Finally again I am amazed that senior first aid is not a requirement for all CFS frontline people - I would assume that all CFS rescue people are qualified senior first aid. I know that the new general rescue package has cervical collars, spinal management and triage as a module for SES & senior first aid is a pre request.
Please accept this comment as an observation not a criticism, as in a perfect world the idea of everyone being a first responder is great.
cheers
Ken
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Offline bittenyakka

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Re: first-aid training
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2009, 04:04:07 PM »
Can i just point out that of the 50 something jobs my brigade did last year only 4 or 5 were bushfires. So I don't know about the rest of the state but i would assume that can be used as a bit of a guide to the fact that the CFS main job is not bush fire, what about the other 90% of our work.

I know bushfire is more speccy on the news.

Offline Pipster

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Re: first-aid training
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2009, 06:40:11 PM »
From the Official CFS call out stats for 2007-08, only 22.5 % of CFS responses were rural fires (around 2999 responses).

I thought core business was the protection of life & property in the country.  (The country being anywhere outside the Metropolitan fire service area)

Pip
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Offline Darius

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Re: first-aid training
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2009, 06:58:40 PM »
have a read of the CFS annual report (it's a 9Mb download):
http://www.cfs.sa.gov.au/site/about_us/publications/annual_reports.jsp

It's got slightly different numbers to yours Pip, see the tables starting at page 82.  In total for the state, in 2007-2008, there were 3986 incidents (7390 turnouts) and of those 1132 were classed as 'rural fires in CFS area' (so 28%). 

Offline chook

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Re: first-aid training
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2009, 08:00:45 AM »
Fair call guys, as long as your not trying to take on more than you can chew (I'm talking about the whole service - not just your particular brigade).
Just a lot of posts on this forum (from CFS members), are about the lack of people, training & equipment.
Now you want to take on something else, I'm just not convinced that members of CFS or for that matter SES could provide a better response than SAAS volunteers.
Maybe in some areas yes, but I know of other brigades (that have been highlighted as possible first responders) that struggle to get a fire crew!
To the government bean counters (Health department) this would look great! I'm not so sure.
However if you guys truely believe you can do it - so be it!
Hopefully it will all work out the way you expect :wink:
cheers
Ken
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Offline Alan J

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Re: first-aid training
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2009, 11:35:00 AM »
I think the idea has potential to help as well as hurt membership.
I suspect we could 'sell' this to our community as a new class of membership.
Rather like EMTs in norte americano fire departments. Not everyone wants to
fight fires.  Some FirRes members may want to expand their options later.
Might see better response to MVA's too - about 30% of our calls.

Ran the SAAS 1st responder programme past our members a couple of years ago.
While most thought it of benefit to the community, about half said they wouldn't
want to be responding to medical calls. The Heavy training requirement killed it
for us. However, as most of our members have at least SFA, with a large number
familiar with AEDs & O2, this would be do-able.  It might lift our annual calls
from 30-ish to 40-ish. Can't see brigades with large nursing home populations embracing it though... (Belair, Eden, Happy Vlly, Morphettvale, etc)

cheers
Alan J.
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Offline Robert-Robert34

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Re: first-aid training
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2009, 01:40:12 PM »
Having some sort of SAAS first response programme would be beneficial to the local community although it would also impact on numbers too due to the heavy training requirement but it really depends on how many members in every brigade are willing to study a Certificate in Basic Emergency Care

Yes it would boost the call out rate up significantly but you also have to look at which towns would benefit most from a SAAS first response team and if the trained members will turn out when paged to a medical emergency of some kind
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Offline bittenyakka

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Re: first-aid training
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2009, 06:44:20 PM »
To those that know about SAAS stuff and medico stuff. How many hours of training would a CFS member really need to be of serious use in a first responder scenario? I ask this from the point of view that i would welcome the idea (for discussion etc) of CFS doing some first responder work but Don't want to do a SAAS uni degree.

Offline Robert-Robert34

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Re: first-aid training
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2009, 06:59:18 PM »
Quote
To those that know about SAAS stuff and medico stuff. How many hours of training would a CFS member really need to be of serious use in a first responder scenario? I ask this from the point of view that i would welcome the idea (for discussion etc) of CFS doing some first responder work but Don't want to do a SAAS uni degree.

When SAAS launched the Port Mac community first responders programme bittenyakka the people who signed up only had to study Cert 4 in Basic Emergency Care which allows them to respond to a medical emergency and provide treatment as well as stablise the patient till a paramedic crew arrives

I would very much welcome the first responder programme being introduced to the CFS as well so vollies who are after something different can do first response as well as their normal fire fighting roles
Kalangadoo Brigade

Offline Pipster

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Re: first-aid training
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2009, 07:11:55 PM »
Fair call guys, as long as your not trying to take on more than you can chew (I'm talking about the whole service - not just your particular brigade).
Just a lot of posts on this forum (from CFS members), are about the lack of people, training & equipment.
Now you want to take on something else, I'm just not convinced that members of CFS or for that matter SES could provide a better response than SAAS volunteers.


I reckon CFS or SES volunteers could provide a better service than SAAS in many areas.

Some service is better than no service!!    :evil:

Pip

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