Author Topic: FW: What is a "combat ready" engine company (USA Blog)  (Read 10736 times)

Offline Zippy

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FW: What is a "combat ready" engine company (USA Blog)
« on: January 08, 2009, 08:47:27 AM »
http://traditionstraining.wordpress.com/2008/12/19/what-is-a-combat-ready-engine-company/

very worth reading.

Comment quote:
Quote
Just like you said, any call could be the big one. I have seen nuisance fire alarms that happen every week turn into working fires that no one is prepared for. They seem to put people into the mind set of “oh its another fire alarm, no need to hurry or gear up, the chief should recall it anytime now.” We need to treat every one like a working fire…..and if you ask my opinion that means pulling lines and throwing ladders on even the B/S calls. This will serve two purposes. One it will obviously have you prepared in case it turns into something, and two it keeps your crew refreshed on how to pull and pack lines, throw ladders, estimate stretches, etc. There is no better training than doing all of this at different locations in your local.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2009, 08:52:37 AM by Zippy »

Offline 6739264

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Re: FW: What is a "combat ready" engine company (USA Blog)
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2009, 10:38:18 AM »
Good luck getting people to think like that. I whole heartedley agree with some of the points made, but as you well know it is easy for people, like yourself who live, breathe and eat firefighting to push things like this, yet there are many other, perhaps the majority of people who are simply volunteers who wish to help their local community and aren't really that obsessed.

The article does make some very good points, especially regarding water in, and getting off the truck ready to work. At all Alarms and the like, its not hard for the pump operator to have a look around and at the very least identify his closest water source/booster. Getting off the truck ready to go isn't hard either. Donning CABA quickly, again, isn't hard. You can easily go from opening the BA locker to fully started up in well under 60 seconds

I don't really agree with the whole idea of laying lines and sinking hydrants on calls with nothing showing on arrival. That can very quickly hinder operations if you do happen to find something and its not where you have laid out your lovely lines to.

The best point the article makes, hands down is this:

Quote
Borrowing ideas from other places is great - IF THAT IDEA FITS YOUR FIRST-DUE.  But if you’re running a pumper/tanker setup in an area with McMansions, what a FDNY engine in the Bronx has on it is probably irrelevant to you.
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Offline Zippy

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Re: FW: What is a "combat ready" engine company (USA Blog)
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2009, 11:00:52 AM »
Good luck getting people to think like that. I whole heartedley agree with some of the points made, but as you well know it is easy for people, like yourself who live, breathe and eat firefighting to push things like this, yet there are many other, perhaps the majority of people who are simply volunteers who wish to help their local community and aren't really that obsessed.

The article does make some very good points, especially regarding water in, and getting off the truck ready to work. At all Alarms and the like, its not hard for the pump operator to have a look around and at the very least identify his closest water source/booster. Getting off the truck ready to go isn't hard either. Donning CABA quickly, again, isn't hard. You can easily go from opening the BA locker to fully started up in well under 60 seconds

I don't really agree with the whole idea of laying lines and sinking hydrants on calls with nothing showing on arrival. That can very quickly hinder operations if you do happen to find something and its not where you have laid out your lovely lines to.

The best point the article makes, hands down is this:

Quote
Borrowing ideas from other places is great - IF THAT IDEA FITS YOUR FIRST-DUE.  But if you’re running a pumper/tanker setup in an area with McMansions, what a FDNY engine in the Bronx has on it is probably irrelevant to you.


MM i agree that a nothing showing call, it isnt worth laying lines, but more or less having ya 2 lines of 38, (not bowled) and connected to the pump ready to go is nice to do.

Yeah a hydrant isnt worth sinking till waters flowing from the pump.

I just like that the article, just says, get ya mind into gear and be competent, essentially.

Offline bittenyakka

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Re: FW: What is a "combat ready" engine company (USA Blog)
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2009, 10:17:06 PM »
i think it is a great initial idea, And would love to see just getting more gear off the truck like ladders and hose (still rolled) just for easy accsess.

I often see our crews pull a few meters of sideline off the truck. although it sounds good i do wonder A) does this mean our truck will be harder to shift if needed. b) is it worth going to the efort to lay a 19/25 mm hose ofver a long dist when by the time you arrive you will prob need something bigger?

What do people think about the idea of our trucks having spots to put flaked hose built into them? so we can "forward lay" into fires? or reveres if you want.

Offline Zippy

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Re: FW: What is a "combat ready" engine company (USA Blog)
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2009, 07:04:23 AM »
Yeah, having a Grab & Go flaked version of 38's or even 25's would make inital attack somewhat easier i think.

Nozzleman grabs the nozzle and runs straight out for 10 metres, Pump operator starts the pump, then  pulls the rest of the flaked hose (2 lengths) out of the Tray, Connects the pump-end hose connection, opens the valve, so the nozzle man can then head towards the fire. Essentially removing the hassle of connecting stuff and lets the nozzleman access the fire activity more.  Even more so, the pump operator knows what he/she has connected to the pump, nothing happens to it without he/shes knowledge.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 07:08:36 AM by Zippy »

Offline 6739264

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Re: FW: What is a "combat ready" engine company (USA Blog)
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2009, 07:42:23 AM »
i think it is a great initial idea, And would love to see just getting more gear off the truck like ladders and hose (still rolled) just for easy accsess.

I often see our crews pull a few meters of sideline off the truck. although it sounds good i do wonder A) does this mean our truck will be harder to shift if needed. b) is it worth going to the efort to lay a 19/25 mm hose ofver a long dist when by the time you arrive you will prob need something bigger?

What do people think about the idea of our trucks having spots to put flaked hose built into them? so we can "forward lay" into fires? or reveres if you want.

Its called a size-up and its what your OIC should be doing. If there is no immeadiate need to pull gear off the truck then don't. There is no use unloading the truck only to have to relocate.

What is this talk of forward and reverse lay? Are we going to go all American and ship hydrants, drop hose and drive forward? The concept behind supply line hoselays works great in the US where they have pillar type hydrants on the street. You may notice we have very few permanent pillar type hydrants on the streets in CFS area.

Yeah, having a Grab & Go flaked version of 38's or even 25's would make inital attack somewhat easier i think.

Nozzleman grabs the nozzle and runs straight out for 10 metres, Pump operator starts the pump, then  pulls the rest of the flaked hose (2 lengths) out of the Tray, Connects the pump-end hose connection, opens the valve, so the nozzle man can then head towards the fire. Essentially removing the hassle of connecting stuff and lets the nozzleman access the fire activity more.  Even more so, the pump operator knows what he/she has connected to the pump, nothing happens to it without he/shes knowledge.

Flaked 25mm? Its called a hose reel.

Nozzleman? NOZZLE? What the christ is in the water up your way?

If you are going to use flaked hose, you'll find it easier if no. 1 (Your 'Nozzleman') grabs the first 8-10 bights of the hose and starts towards the fire, no. 2 grabs a big handful and walks 5-10m from the pump and drops it on the ground, and the Pump operator clears the reat of the hose from the tray and connects it up.

After reading this thread I could have sworn I was reading the Firehouse.com forums, and was about to tell you all about my 3" precconect line with smooth bore nozzle, and how that was better for most small jobs compared to the trash line, but then I looked around and found out this was an Australian website. WOW boy oh boy was I confused.

Just in case you missed it the first time:
Quote
Borrowing ideas from other places is great - IF THAT IDEA FITS YOUR FIRST-DUE.  But if you’re running a pumper/tanker setup in an area with McMansions, what a FDNY engine in the Bronx has on it is probably irrelevant to you.

Ok, so to De-Americanise that for you kiddies. Borrowing ideas you see around the place is a great idea. So long as the idea is applicable to your serive/brigade/area. So all this talk using American nomenclature and ideas that are specifc to certain areas of ANOTHER COUNTRY, are probably not the road you want to go down. I hope for you sake that you're not going on like this on a training night...
To think they employed me as a drooling retard...

Offline Zippy

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Re: FW: What is a "combat ready" engine company (USA Blog)
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2009, 08:17:51 AM »
hahaha, didnt you know this forum is for discussing things you WOULDNT do at training :P

I just like the idea of Quick deployment (and yes, pre-connected) Higher volume Hose (not the pesky hosereels, glorified garden hoses..altho the pressure and volume coming out of them is getting better! :D).

oh and sorry about the nozzleman...
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 08:33:36 AM by Zippy »

Offline bittenyakka

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Re: FW: What is a "combat ready" engine company (USA Blog)
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2009, 08:37:50 AM »
nozzle man ???? yeah, no :-D


Why wouldn't the fowardlay work in SA, we drop the hose + man with standpipe, key etc at the cap in the street and drive forward, the 64 is laid before we even arrive. it it is a going (no not working ) job there is 1 lest task to do when you get there. It is just an idea.

Other than correcting Zippy on how to unload flaked hose. Why do you seem to be not supporting the idea?

Offline 6739264

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Re: FW: What is a "combat ready" engine company (USA Blog)
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2009, 11:54:39 AM »
I just like the idea of Quick deployment (and yes, pre-connected) Higher volume Hose (not the pesky hosereels, glorified garden hoses..altho the pressure and volume coming out of them is getting better! :D).

I don't know... I've never had any pressure/volume issues with our hosereels, but then again, the truck certainly isn't new by any means. Maybe the old plastic fantastic days were the golden age of hosereel build quality?

Why wouldn't the fowardlay work in SA, we drop the hose + man with standpipe, key etc at the cap in the street and drive forward, the 64 is laid before we even arrive. it it is a going (no not working ) job there is 1 lest task to do when you get there. It is just an idea.

Other than correcting Zippy on how to unload flaked hose. Why do you seem to be not supporting the idea?

Forward lay is going to be difficult and time consuming to get to work in SA. Firstly you have to sink the standpipe, rather than be able to drop, wrap, drive and connect. This time it takes to sink the standpipe etc etc, with the truck sitting there doing nothing is valuble time that could well be used getting into the job and doing some good. This is not to mention the distance between hydrants in certain areas can be upto hundreds of meters apart, or the fact that many of the US supply hose lines are of a very large 3"-5" diamater. What about the number of crew? Currently during the day many brigades are struggling to get 4 onto a truck, if you leave one person sitting on the side of the road sinking a hydrant, that then leaves you short a man at the job where you need them.

Don't forget in the USA they gernally use a different configuration of fire appliances to us, that means that the truck used for fire attack may not always have a large/or any on board supply of water.

The current idea of get to the job, get water ON THE FIRE and then look for a water supply is far better suited to both Australian conditions and hydrant construction, as well as the way inwhich the CFS works as a volunteer Fire Service. Once you have water on the fire, the pump operator and the second arriving appliance crew should be working their arse off to get water in to the truck. You've got a few thousand litres on board, it'll do you for a fair while.

I must have missed the apparent distinction between a "going" job and a "working" job. Please do enlighten us...

I'll support any idea, and I personally love the idea of flaked hose. What I have issues with is the attempts to shoehorn ideas into areas that they are not suited for. Zippy calls for flaked 25mm! Not only is that going to be a filtered of a thing to flake in the trays, its also useless if you aren't going to run it straight off the pump. I don't know about you but I can't ever recall a situation (in my area atleast) where you would want to run 25mm straight off the pump, rather than as an extention to a hosereel.

There is nothing wrong with bringing new ideas up, but if the idea is only born from seeing something 'cool' that a Brigade somewhere else in the world  does rather than born from "How can we do this better" maybe it's not such a good idea.
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Offline bittenyakka

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Re: FW: What is a "combat ready" engine company (USA Blog)
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2009, 12:03:01 PM »
Going seems more Australian :-D

Yeah i see what you mean about our infrastructure being different to what we see in the states.

Since you seem to know a fair bit about these things. How come we pretty much never need or think we will need a 5" hose for supply? I think it is overkill but what is the major difference needs?

Offline 6739264

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Re: FW: What is a "combat ready" engine company (USA Blog)
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2009, 12:35:49 PM »
Going seems more Australian :-D

Yeah i see what you mean about our infrastructure being different to what we see in the states.

Since you seem to know a fair bit about these things. How come we pretty much never need or think we will need a 5" hose for supply? I think it is overkill but what is the major difference needs?

Glad to see someone around here is sticking to SACFS terms! ;)

I'd say the main issue with larger diameter hoses for water supply is simply that our standard hydrants are all 64mm in diameter. This would possibly also stem from Australia being a European settled country and our Fire Services following the UK services very, very closely.'London Round' anyone? The good thing about the larger diameter is that by using it, you'll be achieving almost 100% hydraulic efficiency, meaning you'll start to approach what the pump is actually rated to. You'll notice this when draughting with the large diameter suction hose.

You'll notice as well that some US appliances have a single large diameter collector, whereas Aussie trucks tend to have mulitple collectors allowing form mulitple lines in that will rival the same supply capacity as a single large diameter line.

As to any difference in needs, I'd say that for 90% of our firfighting jobs, a single 64mm in will do the job, and for the other 10% 2 64mm in will eat it for breakfast. We don't really have much of a need to be pulling hundreds for meters of hose through buildings that may or may not have internal hydrants, nor do we play by the smooth bore 'Fire's not out till theres water coming out the front door' school of thought (ok, som MOST of us dont). The only time I could think of it being much help would be supplying an Aerial appliance, and even then if the single hydrant can't supply the large diameter hose there is little point.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 12:40:49 PM by 6739264 »
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Offline jaff

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Re: FW: What is a "combat ready" engine company (USA Blog)
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2009, 02:20:51 PM »
In the last photo on the site, the firefighter standing in the doorway in smoke feeding hose, does he have his facemask on or just hanging from its strap?, if not, is he "combat ready"?
Interesting site though, as has already been posted, location, location, location what works in one location/country/service may not neccesarily work for you at any given time, BUT it is good to be across other services practices both good and bad.
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Offline Alex

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Re: FW: What is a "combat ready" engine company (USA Blog)
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2009, 03:46:54 PM »
Don't a few brigades already run flaked hoses? Eden? Happy? ie; 38mm attack and 64mm supply in the bins built into type 2s?

Wouldn't mind hearing some feedback from those brigades.

Offline joff

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Re: FW: What is a "combat ready" engine company (USA Blog)
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2009, 04:59:00 PM »
Alex having been in brigades with the type 2 pumpers and older style cfs pumpers flaked hose is not a new thing. I remember having flaked 64mm on the old 32. The Type 2 pumps generally have a forward and reverse lay 64mm in the trays and then a 38mm attack line. Most fire services in Australia do operate flaked hose and can deploy them as attack lines just as quick as a reel. Reverse and forward lay can work very well if your crew know what they are doing, if you do have a well oiled crew someone can be dumped at the hydrant and lay into the job, if you know it is a going job and you have a good crew this should not delay anything. If your the second truck in you can reverse lay from the first pumping appliance back to the next hydrant or set yourself on a cross street/main road to supply water.
Having been to the states and seen first hand how the engine companies operate in many departments, yes there are a lot of things that are set up for the USA but a lot of good points in knowing you role at a call, knowing your gear, and knowing how to actually drive and operate a pumping appliance.

Offline Alex

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Re: FW: What is a "combat ready" engine company (USA Blog)
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2009, 06:35:42 PM »
Alex having been in brigades with the type 2 pumpers and older style cfs pumpers flaked hose is not a new thing. I remember having flaked 64mm on the old 32.

Thats what i thought mate, was wondering why it was being discussed as if it didn't exist in CFS at all...

Offline 6739264

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Re: FW: What is a "combat ready" engine company (USA Blog)
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2009, 09:47:29 AM »
Thats what i thought mate, was wondering why it was being discussed as if it didn't exist in CFS at all...

Its all about who you are talking to. Shitheap Brigade 24 has never seen a flaked hose, whereas, like Joff suggested, those from brigades that have had either the old pumper builds or the new Type 2 builds are generally familiar with basic flaked hose setups. Flaked hose setups are still in the minority, and I would suggest that sadly thats where they will stay, only being used in certain urban areas where the brigades are forward thinking and happy to experiment with ideas.

Reverse and forward lay can work very well if your crew know what they are doing, if you do have a well oiled crew someone can be dumped at the hydrant and lay into the job, if you know it is a going job and you have a good crew this should not delay anything. If your the second truck in you can reverse lay from the first pumping appliance back to the next hydrant or set yourself on a cross street/main road to supply water.
Having been to the states and seen first hand how the engine companies operate in many departments, yes there are a lot of things that are set up for the USA but a lot of good points in knowing you role at a call, knowing your gear, and knowing how to actually drive and operate a pumping appliance.

I'm sure that Forward lays and Reverse lays work well with a well oiled bunch of wannabe USA firies, but for the rest of us mere mortals we might just stick to getting off the truck, donning and getting to work and THEN getting water in. Once we see the Storz couplings go mainstream, it'll make flaked hoselays so much easier to pull off and get to work, rather than having to worry about the direction in which the hose is running.

You're 110% correct about the good things to come out of the USA, especially the things that can be adopted to work in CFS. Things like rigidly assigned seating roles can be hard, with the different in training and the like - its a bit hard to say seats 1 and 2 are BA when one of your operators might be the driver - But if you think outside the square you can adapt it and make it work. People tend to lose sight of the basics which are exactly as you said:

Knowing you role at a call, knowing your gear, and knowing how to actually drive and operate a pumping appliance.

We could all do well to take a leaf out of the book of many of the USA Volunteer Fire Departments that actually take their firefighting seriously, rather than with the "I'm just a volunteer" attitude.
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