Author Topic: Dash Roll with B pillar removed.  (Read 16815 times)

Offline 6739264

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Dash Roll with B pillar removed.
« on: January 31, 2009, 01:55:14 PM »
Just a quick question to see what people are thinking.

If you need to perform a dash roll, yet you've already removed the rear door and B pillar, how do you/your brigade generally go about it?

Use the spreaders as a base to ram off? Cut the sill and hinge down to create a base? Do you have Hurst Quick Kick style ram support? Not bother about Rolling the dash and go for a dash lift? Break out the pulling chains/whinch and roll it that way?
To think they employed me as a drooling retard...

Offline chook

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Re: Dash Roll with B pillar removed.
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2009, 03:24:41 PM »
3 methods I was taught & used:-
1 use the Lukas LRS-C Ram support
2 push against the point where the floor is re-inforced and raised(where the front seat bolts on as you know).
3 cut a wide slot into the bottom of the A (or a pocket cut) spreader tips at 90 degrees & spread.
when i left they were trialing a bigger ram that would reach from the rear wheel arch - don't know how it went.
Got pictures of two & three but sadly can't post on a public forum - copyright!
We have used the spreaders to push against, but we think that too much force was applied across the spreaders (which they are not designed for) & as most units have LRS-C's & all are taught all three methods couldn't see much point.
Pity you can't get hold of the SESSA training package, good photo's :-D
cheers
cheers
Ken
just another retard!

misterteddy

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Re: Dash Roll with B pillar removed.
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2009, 05:20:38 PM »
modified dash lift with the spreaders heaps quicker and nearly always provides as much access

Offline RescueHazmat

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Re: Dash Roll with B pillar removed.
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2009, 09:19:12 PM »
Try for a foot-well exposure, then attempt a dash lift with the spreaders, possibly bridging with a chock or two to give a bit more lift..  - Guess it depends how much of the dash we are trying to get off someone..

Latest techniques don't use the chains anymore, but, could still serve to be useful it carried..

Offline jaff

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Re: Dash Roll with B pillar removed.
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2009, 07:26:13 AM »
Try for a foot-well exposure, then attempt a dash lift with the spreaders, possibly bridging with a chock or two to give a bit more lift..  - Guess it depends how much of the dash we are trying to get off someone..

Latest techniques don't use the chains anymore, but, could still serve to be useful it carried..


Latest techniques? when the course is delivered are they totally discounting the previous techniques that were all the rage back when? or are they now just suggesting possibly more efficient ways of doing the same job? Just my take on things but a technique perhaps shouldnt be discounted just because its old, only if its found to be unsafe.
Just Another Filtered Fireman

Offline chook

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Re: Dash Roll with B pillar removed.
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2009, 09:12:33 AM »
Think its because chains maybe considered unsafe? I know lifting the steering column with chains is (steering pull).
But I'm ready to stand corrected :-D And if thats the only way a particular job can be done - well who knows :wink:
Ken
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Offline RescueHazmat

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Re: Dash Roll with B pillar removed.
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2009, 10:38:15 AM »
I'll clarify for sure Jaff, however I know from a collegue who just completed his RCR quite recently that the Chains were not taught on the course. (At all..)

Offline 6739264

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Re: Dash Roll with B pillar removed.
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2009, 11:28:26 AM »
Chains certainly have their use for pulling the steering column, and I'd wager it far safer to use chains to pull rather than attempting to work around a casualties legs with a ram/spreaders. But then again, things seem to change almost year to year, you don't see people getting the Air Chisel to work that often, but it still useful.
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Offline boredmatrix

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Re: Dash Roll with B pillar removed.
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2009, 01:25:45 PM »
I'll clarify for sure Jaff, however I know from a collegue who just completed his RCR quite recently that the Chains were not taught on the course. (At all..)

too much risk...might break a nail....

Offline bittenyakka

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Re: Dash Roll with B pillar removed.
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2009, 02:13:20 PM »
can someone please explain more about these chains for us non rescue people?

rescue5271

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Re: Dash Roll with B pillar removed.
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2009, 02:46:51 PM »
Chains are still used but not on the RCR course last time the where used in Naracoorte was on a truck accident down in Penola and did the job well as the driver was still pinned into the cabin.


chains still have their place and they should be taught on the RCR course,fire services all over this country still use them in RCR....

Offline Mike

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Re: Dash Roll with B pillar removed.
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2009, 08:55:03 AM »
They stopped teaching the use of chains shortly after adjustable steering columns came into vogue. To much pressure on the joint causes the column to break and travel in an arc resulting in some pretty serious injuries.

Dash Roll/Lift are prefered options to opening up that space.

I know SES aim to teach new methods, and depending on time/cars/trainee's will incorporate old skills where appropriate.

Offline 6739264

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Re: Dash Roll with B pillar removed.
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2009, 01:36:16 PM »
can someone please explain more about these chains for us non rescue people?

Two basic forms of 'chains' You have pulling chains that attach to the tips of your spreaders and can be used to pull things. Basically, you open your spreader arms, attach the chains to your anchor and pull points and close the spreaders to pull. So to lift the steering column, you attach chains around your column to one tip, hen from the other tip to a strong anchor point under the car, and close!

The other form of chains is basically on the end of a winch to allow you to winch parts of the vehicle around. This is predominently a last resort.
To think they employed me as a drooling retard...

Offline bittenyakka

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Re: Dash Roll with B pillar removed.
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2009, 04:23:16 PM »
ok i think i get it but wouldn't doing that pull the steering column into the legs of the patient? ie pull column to anchor point on car floor?

misterteddy

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Re: Dash Roll with B pillar removed.
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2009, 09:21:17 PM »
chain useage is a really difficult topic to keep operators up to speed with at a Brigade level. There are so many issues that relate to their use, that, by default, most RCR crews go with what they know better and just make do.

The use of chains in lifting the steering wheel and column is from a slightly older time, when the steering column was all one relatively straight tube, and so it pivoted nicely  and lifted comfortably. These days, modern car construction has a lot more universal type joints and bends and a lot less rigidity, and therefore it may not lift as easily and just bend and be a pain in the bum. Thats why the newer techniques of dash lifting and rolling work even better, in that the newer assemblies are an integral part of the dash, so not only are u lifting them, you are making more space everywhere.

The other issue with chains is that their effect is not always predictable, or controllable. They can tear the structures they are pulling, and may not impart an even pull, which can result in sudden loading (or unloading) which can effect the stability, or safety in the area around your trapped person.

I know of at least a couple of people that are keen to introduce frontal zone separation for head on impacts using chains. Put simply, you reverse the force of impact, with a chain set, winch and a big arse anchor, and effectively pull out the front after a few relief cuts. It is used in a few overseas countries, some rave about it, some are skeptical about it, my reading of the research is that the jury is out on its cost effectiveness and safety concerns (I'm sure one of the proponents will agree to disagree with me, we've certainly had a discussion or two about it). Either way, it's a good topic for a discussion about vehicle structure, construction and impact force vectors.


Lastly, like many things that aren't rake hoes or knapsacks, the CFS has its head up its arse , sorry i mean in the sand, in regards to chain sets. They have no planned maintenance schedule, no guidelines for inspection or serviceability checks or life of type info that they will sign off on. If you have a set, I doubt you would get them replaced (happy to be corrected here).

They have many many uses other than lifting steering columns, and should form part of a General/Heavy Rescue stowage......but thats right, bugga....we don't do them do we  :|

Offline 6739264

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Re: Dash Roll with B pillar removed.
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2009, 05:55:34 AM »
ok i think i get it but wouldn't doing that pull the steering column into the legs of the patient? ie pull column to anchor point on car floor?

http://www.jawsoflife.com/_Downloads/hurst/hurst_operation_manuals/ML-32%20Operation%20Manual.pdf

Have a quick look at page 6/7 it gives about as clear as description as possible. The spreaders sit on the front of the car with the chain going to the anchor point under the car, around the bumper. So the pulling force is directed forwards and upwards of the column.
To think they employed me as a drooling retard...

Offline bittenyakka

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Re: Dash Roll with B pillar removed.
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2009, 11:04:20 AM »
oh i see now i thought the chains were going through the car floor.

Offline chook

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Re: Dash Roll with B pillar removed.
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2009, 01:23:33 PM »
The Lukas chain sets that are issued are inspected every 12 months as part of the maintenance program carried out by PT Hydraulics. I thought CFS was part of the same program?
Ken
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Offline RescueHazmat

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Re: Dash Roll with B pillar removed.
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2009, 03:49:14 PM »
Through the floor pan?.. :roll:

Offline Big Yellow Gongbeater

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Re: Dash Roll with B pillar removed.
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2010, 08:48:37 AM »
Jeez "numbers" its been 65 years since WWII. In case you haven't noticed chains and your beloved air chisel have been relegated to the history of URAR. Get with the times, or get out.
"Madness and chaos reign supreme. My work here is done"

misterteddy

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Re: Dash Roll with B pillar removed.
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2010, 02:37:19 PM »
wow BYG.....you've done a fantastic job in resurecting 100 year old posts that had long since died a death,....have u been keeping Walt company for a year or so?

Offline drmz

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Re: Dash Roll with B pillar removed.
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2010, 07:26:44 PM »
The main issue with chains is the inspection after use and annual testing.In a detailed letter from a manufacture they stated the testing process for chains is not conclusive and relates to the loads the chains have been exposed too. Chains for steering have been fazed out for some time as stated earlier due to adjustable steering columns, because a catastrophic chain failure would result in fragments flying everywhere. Whereas a dash roll/ lift using spreaders pushing the dash away and is backed up by the addition of wedges into the relief cut. Then if the tool fails the dash only returns and rests on the last wedge. 

Offline 6739264

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Re: Dash Roll with B pillar removed.
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2010, 10:48:01 PM »
Jeez "numbers" its been 65 years since WWII. In case you haven't noticed chains and your beloved air chisel have been relegated to the history of URAR. Get with the times, or get out.

You're obviously not too well read with regard to the "History of URAR". Go grab a book one day - you might learn something!

I can do more with chains and a 'chisel than you can with your SACFS issued hydraulics!

The main issue with chains is the inspection after use and annual testing.In a detailed letter from a manufacture they stated the testing process for chains is not conclusive and relates to the loads the chains have been exposed too. Chains for steering have been fazed out for some time as stated earlier due to adjustable steering columns, because a catastrophic chain failure would result in fragments flying everywhere. Whereas a dash roll/ lift using spreaders pushing the dash away and is backed up by the addition of wedges into the relief cut. Then if the tool fails the dash only returns and rests on the last wedge. 

The testing and inspection is a very fair point, and as much as testing link size and shape is good to a point, its hardly foolproof.

So, if you're not happy winching the steering column, how about winching the whole dash?

Also, how do you pack wedges into a Dash Lift?

Its interesting to see people condemning ideas to the point of becoming far too narrow minded with rescue operations. Any Rescue incident is merely an exercise in lateral thinking, not the application of a handful of poor FGP's.
To think they employed me as a drooling retard...

Offline JJD

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Re: Dash Roll with B pillar removed.
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2010, 09:53:56 AM »
Quote
...Any Rescue incident is merely an exercise in lateral thinking, not the application of a handful of poor FGP's.

Amen
Hmmm, a large unused document that is extremely important, but knowone knows what is in it or what it does.

Must be related to some sort of government department... - Footy


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Offline boredmatrix

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Re: Dash Roll with B pillar removed.
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2010, 05:30:46 PM »
hooray - there are firies out there who use the practical application of theories in a relative yet appropriate contextual thought pattern of problem-solving!

can someone please turn it into a virus??....there's about 20 000 more of you who may or may not need it (yes...mets included!!)

last time I made a suggestion, the guy with the cutters looked at me blankly for about half a minute....and then called over the senior who had to explain it to him in small sentences....