Author Topic: 2009 Vic Bushfire Inquiry  (Read 6676 times)

Offline Alan J

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2009 Vic Bushfire Inquiry
« on: May 16, 2009, 05:43:53 PM »
Transcripts.
http://www.royalcommission.vic.gov.au/Public-Hearings

Written submissions
http://www.royalcommission.vic.gov.au/Have-Your-Say/View-Submissions

The short grabs in the news media are not an accurate reflection of proceedings.
For example, Thursday's Witness has studied the circumstances of the 552
lives lost to bush fire in the 100 years to 2007.  Overall those stats show the
effectiveness of the AFAC policy - ie.
PLAN your bushfire action:
EITHER Leave Early before you are even threatened by bushfire
OR Stay and defend your prepared property.

Only one of those 552 died inside a defensible home while actively defending it.
He died of a heart attack.

They also show the consequences of either not preparing, or waiting to see
if the the fire will threaten me (not planning, or failing to execute plan) or changing
your mind at last minute (failing to execute plan). (Most of the other 551.)

Didn't see anything about THAT in the papers on on the Teev, hey.
I'd suggest that the media, in its infinite arrogance & ignorance, has
already "decided" by consensus to blame the policy & get it changed
to manadatory evacuations.

cheers
AJ
Alan J.
Cherry Gdns CFS

Data isn't information.  Information isn't knowledge. 
Knowledge isn't wisdom.

Offline bittenyakka

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Re: 2009 Vic Bushfire Inquiry
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2009, 11:01:14 PM »
That was interesting.
The researcher is called to give evidence on page 28 or so

It did point out that people had to be active in defending there house, and a mop or similar wasn't enough.


This thread will be closely watched

Offline Bagyassfirey

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Re: 2009 Vic Bushfire Inquiry
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2009, 08:43:32 AM »
Going to drag on 4 ages i feel...on a more positive slightly un related note..our fellow FF returned home from Hospital to Burra a week n a half ago. great to see he is finally on the mend.

rescue5271

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Re: 2009 Vic Bushfire Inquiry
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2009, 09:35:08 AM »
It will drag on for a while and at the end of it I think you will see the poor Russell retire he does not look well in the dock..Some interesting things so far the use of FIRE STATION sirens  why have CFA stoped using them answer pagers now did this not come up in the westcoast fires???

Offline Alan J

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Re: 2009 Vic Bushfire Inquiry
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2009, 10:07:00 PM »
Anyone else wading through the transcripts & submissions ?

Day 15 (1st June) is worth a read. (yes I'm waaaay behind)
http://www.royalcommission.vic.gov.au/getdoc/75285f31-46a4-4634-9dde-3a04eec44d13/June-09
The ABC producer in the first quarter is skip overable.
The policeman who was home when his house went at the Churchill fire is amazing reading.
Russell Rees has some very interesting comments. Particularly in the areas of
fuel reduction & agency interworking & culture change.

I see in todays Age on-line that he has renewed his contract as CFA CEO.
Having read the day 15 transcript, I think that a quite reasonable decision.
Both by him & the CFA. (Not letting you do my footy tipping Bill  :-D )

cheers
Alan J.
Cherry Gdns CFS

Data isn't information.  Information isn't knowledge. 
Knowledge isn't wisdom.

rescue5271

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Re: 2009 Vic Bushfire Inquiry
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2009, 08:00:03 AM »
Its good to see that he has signed on for a further term and I am sure his holiday away from it all will help him recharge his battery.

Offline Darius

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Re: 2009 Vic Bushfire Inquiry
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2009, 10:26:06 AM »
it's a very 'interesting' (in Yes Minister style usage) decision of the Vic govt to make right at this time given the royal commission and history of lack of support of CFA volunteers by the CFA and Vic govt in the past in these type of sitations.

AJ thanks for the post, I will have to skim some more of the transcripts, haven't been keeping up lately.

Offline Robert-Robert34

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Re: 2009 Vic Bushfire Inquiry
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2009, 12:49:24 PM »
Quote
Some interesting things so far the use of FIRE STATION sirens  why have CFA stoped using them answer pagers now did this not come up in the westcoast fires???

Lets hope that the CFA start allowing brigades with station sirens to activate them for every call out during day time hours whilst maintaining the pager system as the primary way to notify volunteers of fire calls
Kalangadoo Brigade

Offline bittenyakka

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Re: 2009 Vic Bushfire Inquiry
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2009, 11:26:29 PM »
No, Make it tell people that it is THEIR job to be aware of the Fire danger on any given day in THEIR area. WE aren't baby sitters and we should have no responsibility to people who don;t prepare themselves.

Offline Alan J

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Re: 2009 Vic Bushfire Inquiry
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2009, 02:29:39 AM »
Bittenyakka
I agree.
I guess at some point though, someone has to explain fire behaviour & etc to the Great Unwashed.
While it would be nice to hope that HQ will do that, the reality is that we, the fire-
fighters, are the only ones with street cred for people to listen to.

cheers

Alan J.
Cherry Gdns CFS

Data isn't information.  Information isn't knowledge. 
Knowledge isn't wisdom.

Offline jaff

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Re: 2009 Vic Bushfire Inquiry
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2009, 11:58:50 PM »
Bittenyakka
I agree.
I guess at some point though, someone has to explain fire behaviour & etc to the Great Unwashed.
While it would be nice to hope that HQ will do that, the reality is that we, the fire-
fighters, are the only ones with street cred for people to listen to.

cheers




Alan where did you get your cred from? Ive been back over all my certificates and checked my TAS,and NO STREET CRED.
Group training officer can look forward to a phone call reeeeel early tomorrow as I try to get into the street cred training course PUA174CRED!

Cheers Jaff
Just Another Filtered Fireman

Offline bittenyakka

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Re: 2009 Vic Bushfire Inquiry
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2009, 09:36:15 AM »
The only issue that my solution is that someone does need to provide accesable information to the public about fires

Offline bajdas

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Re: 2009 Vic Bushfire Inquiry
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2009, 11:51:55 AM »
The only issue that my solution is that someone does need to provide accesable information to the public about fires

That is a big issue...how to get clear, accurate, readable information to the general public.

Even secondary schools are having difficulty informing parents of the new SACE that affect their kids now. I have been to two parent information meetings recently at my son's Secondary School. The school is in a bushfire area that has experienced significant fires in the area in the last two years.

At one daytime meeting, out of sixty kids we were the only parents in attendance. At the whole school parent open meeting in the evening, I would estimate 40 to 60 parents from a school of population of 700 kids. Not many attending to gain information.

So if the general public are not willing to get information regards their kids education, how will you get them to worry about bushfires ?
Andrew Macmichael
lives at Pt Noarlunga South.

My personal opinion only.

Offline CFS_Firey

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Re: 2009 Vic Bushfire Inquiry
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2009, 12:26:28 PM »
Quote from: bajdas link=topic=2265.msg51351#msg51351
So if the general public are not willing to get information regards their kids education, how will you get them to worry about bushfires ?

And if the IMT has enough trouble getting timely and accurate information about where the fire is and what it's doing, how can they be expected to warn the public?

Offline chook

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Re: 2009 Vic Bushfire Inquiry
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2009, 01:10:58 PM »
And thats what one of the P's in PPRR is, prepare & that includes educating the "great unwashed". Maybe the problem is the slogan "Protecting the community" - it gives a feeling of "don't worry the CFS will protect us!
Maybe the slogan should read "Helping the community to prepare & protect itself".
From what I have seen the volunteers in the CFA (in areas directly affected by the fires) feel abandoned, betrayed & neglected by their senior officers. So I'm surprised that some on this forum are happy the chiefs kept their jobs considering the findings have not been released yet. Yes there were numerous issues with members of the public not being prepared etc, but the question needs to be asked Why weren't they & someone still needs to take responsibility for what happened. And before some of you start jumping up & down, remember that when you hold yourself up as the "protector" or "expert" then you need to be held accountable when it all turns to scheiße!
cheers
Ken
just another retard!

Offline jaff

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Re: 2009 Vic Bushfire Inquiry
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2009, 05:53:10 PM »
And thats what one of the P's in PPRR is, prepare & that includes educating the "great unwashed". Maybe the problem is the slogan "Protecting the community" - it gives a feeling of "don't worry the CFS will protect us!
Maybe the slogan should read "Helping the community to prepare & protect itself".
From what I have seen the volunteers in the CFA (in areas directly affected by the fires) feel abandoned, betrayed & neglected by their senior officers. So I'm surprised that some on this forum are happy the chiefs kept their jobs considering the findings have not been released yet. Yes there were numerous issues with members of the public not being prepared etc, but the question needs to be asked Why weren't they & someone still needs to take responsibility for what happened. And before some of you start jumping up & down, remember that when you hold yourself up as the "protector" or "expert" then you need to be held accountable when it all turns to filtered!
cheers


Lets put mother nature on the stand and hold her accountable! Lets put God on the stand and hold him accountable!
Then fire their omnipotent asssses.
(quote)So I am suprised there are some people on the forum happy the chiefs have kept their jobs?........because the findings havent been released yet, thats why. Legal procedures "innocent until proven guilty"

Have those freaken mexicans done your head in again Chook? :evil:
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 05:58:28 PM by jaff »
Just Another Filtered Fireman

Offline Robert-Robert34

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Re: 2009 Vic Bushfire Inquiry
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2009, 09:12:53 PM »
Quote
Even secondary schools are having difficulty informing parents of the new SACE that affect their kids now. I have been to two parent information meetings recently at my son's Secondary School. The school is in a bushfire area that has experienced significant fires in the area in the last two years.

Being that the high school is in a bushfire prone area it would be a good idea to perhaps pressure the school staff into buying a 2 way radio or scanner so if in the event of a major fire they will know what is happening and be able to take measures to ensure safety of the students

Kalangadoo Brigade

Offline chook

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Re: 2009 Vic Bushfire Inquiry
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2009, 09:45:12 AM »
Ah no Jaff - innocent until yes but renew contracts? Really?
Let me relate you a tale from a few years ago, mother nature dumps an absolute scheiße load of water in QLD. Local officer (in QLD)is asked "Do you think our town will flood?" Answer "No both creeks will have to rise at the same time - don't panic"
Both creeks rose - town flooded, community held officer & his organisation responsible = loss of faith in organisation!
Storms Sydney - poor response due to a number of issues including not involving other service where require = community holds organisation accountable - organisation improves training, resourcing, & playing with others :wink:
There is an excellent report http://www.ses.nsw.gov.au/infopages/7739.html on how two communities dealt with a major disaster based on knowledge & information. I just find it sad that after the disaster that was fire season 1983, that the lessons learnt were not & that it seems like a big arse covering exercise has been happening - again! These same sentiments were echoed by CFA volunteers on the ABC 7:30 report last week, so yeah Jaff maybe you are right & the mexicans have got to my brain again :wink: cheers

Ken
just another retard!

Offline bajdas

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Re: 2009 Vic Bushfire Inquiry
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2009, 11:21:07 AM »
Quote
Even secondary schools are having difficulty informing parents of the new SACE that affect their kids now. I have been to two parent information meetings recently at my son's Secondary School. The school is in a bushfire area that has experienced significant fires in the area in the last two years.

Being that the high school is in a bushfire prone area it would be a good idea to perhaps pressure the school staff into buying a 2 way radio or scanner so if in the event of a major fire they will know what is happening and be able to take measures to ensure safety of the students

They have student and staff volunteers into the local CFS and SES.
Emergency procedures were recently enacted during an incident near the school. They worked well.
I doubt if a two-way radio in the front office will make it better...I think it would make it worse because of inaccurate information being interpreted.
Andrew Macmichael
lives at Pt Noarlunga South.

My personal opinion only.

Offline Alan J

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Re: 2009 Vic Bushfire Inquiry
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2009, 04:31:11 PM »
And if the IMT has enough trouble getting timely and accurate information about where the fire is and what it's doing, how can they be expected to warn the public?

Not only that, but at a big fire, just how do you describe the position of
something which surges & halts randomly along its flame-front? Assuming you can
even tell where the flame front is amongst 1 or 2 km deep of multiple &
increasing spot fires?  Is it even relevant?

How do you -accurately- describe its location relative to a number of urban
interface streets when, by the time you have read the list of streets, it has
already moved several hundreds of metres?  But only in some places.

Methinks the media is willfully misleading the public as to what is possible.
Never let reality stand in the way of manufacturing a good "scandal".

Chap before the commission on 3rd June (on page 101) made a good point about
official warnings. Dry officialese standard approved messages simply don't
convey reality to listeners.

"Listening to the - it was almost immune, you were almost
immune to the warnings because it is the same - you get
football commentators, when they are talking about a
football match, they are using incredibly colourful and
creative language to describe a guy who jumps up in the
air and grabs a ball. He becomes a hero, he becomes a
world class player at everything. Okay, it's exciting,
but people have become immune to this type of colourful
language and when something is extreme, it doesn't get any
worse than extreme on any other day, whether it is a 27
degree day or whether it is a 30 degree day and we have a
north wind blowing. The factors that go into making an
extreme fire danger day are not described to the people
who really need that warning."

« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 05:02:18 PM by Alan J »
Alan J.
Cherry Gdns CFS

Data isn't information.  Information isn't knowledge. 
Knowledge isn't wisdom.

Offline Alan J

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Re: 2009 Vic Bushfire Inquiry
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2009, 04:43:12 PM »
Maybe the problem is the slogan "Protecting the community" - it gives a feeling of "don't worry the CFS will protect us!
Maybe the slogan should read "Helping the community to prepare & protect itself".


Thankyou Chook !!!
I've always hated that slogan.
We generally don't "protect" our communiy.
We generally turn up with a broom after community members have done something silly!

A key message in community education is that you have to prepare as if you will
be on your own. Some ancient roman(?) wrote something like: "The one hope for
the doomed is not to hope for rescue."

Maybe that should be the new CFS catchy motto...  :-D

Alan J.
Cherry Gdns CFS

Data isn't information.  Information isn't knowledge. 
Knowledge isn't wisdom.

 

anything