Author Topic: New Rescue van for CFS  (Read 54099 times)

Offline Mike

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Re: New Rescue van for CFS
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2010, 10:22:17 AM »
The SES sprinter has not had any good feedback from RCR units that im aware of...

Offline Zippy

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Re: New Rescue van for CFS
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2010, 11:21:03 AM »
Rescue Appliances should pretty much be a  QAV/Rescue appliance in all cases...  If the road crash is in rescue brigades own area,  in the day time...and its on fire...    Needs a 500-1000L Tank, Smallest yet good enough pump possible + Hosereel and thats it.

If that aint possible...the rescue truck shouldnt mobilise, just the fire appliance, with a rescue default occuring.

Offline crashndash

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Re: New Rescue van for CFS
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2010, 12:06:10 PM »
Rescue Appliances should pretty much be a  QAV/Rescue appliance in all cases...  If the road crash is in rescue brigades own area,  in the day time...and its on fire...    Needs a 500-1000L Tank, Smallest yet good enough pump possible + Hosereel and thats it.

If that aint possible...the rescue truck shouldnt mobilise, just the fire appliance, with a rescue default occuring.

Back to BFF1 Respond to a Road Accident with you Zippy....... it's called fire protection at a scene....not neccessarily fire suppression. Needs to happen with or without the presence of "a fire".

To be serious about the job of RCR requires a fair suite of tools (not just those in charge) to be available. Given that a large amount of the CFS risk is open road, or 80kph or above signposted roads, then high speed impact and considerable passenger cell deformation is more likely to occur than in suburbia which has higher numbers of lower speed impacts. A QAV type appliance cannot cut it for this requirement. The CFS standard stowage for RCR is barely adequate for low speed impact collisions, let alone high speed, multi vehicle, or those involving road transport.

We know the current 34/34P builds dont cope well with multi roles (Hazmat+Rural, RCR + rural, or heaven forbid, RCR+Hazmat+Rural), and so  there needs to be some method of ensuring a higher response of equipment that might be needed. The concept of the Sprinters as a Support Vehicle is an easy solution to the fact that the CFS doesnt seem to be able to design a fire appliance that can adequately do 2 roles, and go offroad for a grass/wildfire. Sadly when u look at the costs a Sprinter doesnt stack up;
  • cost of the bare Emergency Services type Sprinter (with 3 or 4 seats)is approx $60k....even second hand flogged and tired ex Ambulance Service ones are around $35k
  • fitout for even a basic storage suite that isnt an ergonomic disaster and meets OHS and crashworthy requirements would be around $30K
  • it requires  another bay in the station to secure expensive and highly attractive equipment (remember sets are regularly stolen here and interstate), for some not a problem, for some it is
  • another driver is required; a consideration, not a precluder.

so for a cost of somewhere between $70k-$100k you will have an appliance, that still requires a fire vehicle respond with it.

Add $70k to the build cost of a 34P and you might get a proper build  on an appliance that is more usuable. For the dozen or so rescue and hazmat brigades that do a number of jobs a year, this has to be a better answer (and thus the Services Pumper is born!). For low number Brigades that still have a real RCR or Hazmat Risk, maybe a simple single cab 16ft tray with a (simple, durable) pod is a better idea for a support vehicle (ie change from $50k).

Like everything, no one model suits all


Offline ftstn

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Re: New Rescue van for CFS
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2010, 10:15:49 PM »
TFS custom built a 3.1 pump/rescue for Triabunna Brigade 3 tool capacity, 3000l water, and a Urban stowage have some pics somewhere, PM if interested

Maffu

Offline Zippy

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Re: New Rescue van for CFS
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2010, 02:02:02 AM »
the 3.1P pump/tank/rescue, definately is a decent looking appliance compared to our 34P's.

firefighter21

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Re: New Rescue van for CFS
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2010, 10:13:26 PM »
Hey people i seen this vehicle tonight
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 09:25:04 PM by firefighter21 »

Offline Chinny

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Re: New Rescue van for CFS
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2010, 10:34:42 PM »
Please post pics :-D

firefighter21

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Re: New Rescue van for CFS
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2010, 12:02:42 AM »
:D
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 09:25:34 PM by firefighter21 »

Offline CFS_Firey

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Re: New Rescue van for CFS
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2010, 12:28:15 AM »
Thanks for the pics.  It does look pretty light on for stowage... is there much in the way of stabilisation, hand tools or casualty protection? and is that only 1 ram I see?

Darren

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Re: New Rescue van for CFS
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2010, 01:09:55 AM »
Wow it is very light on for equipment, you would hope the truck coming with you has a lot of extra gear on it.

How many crew did this appliance carry ?

SAAS are running merc vans.

Offline Mike

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Re: New Rescue van for CFS
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2010, 08:07:00 AM »
Well, it certainly doesnt look convincing.
Lack of gear, space for useful stuff....

Was that a set of Stabfast between the pump and tools?
On the bright side, it had streamline couplings :)

Offline bajdas

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Re: New Rescue van for CFS
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2010, 12:24:37 PM »
What I do not understand is why two different RCR vehicle proto-types are being evaluated by SES and CFS in South Australia.

I know the SES Van is being mooted for multi roles (storm, chainsaw, RCR, light rescue, etc) depending on equipment within it. But the CFS Van is being mooted for RCR and Hazmat.

Isn't the RCR Van to do the same job for the community ? Then why is the development not the same vehicle type or basic design ?

But then, I think the RCR equipment and RCR training is not standardised in SA yet.

Maybe I live in a fantasy too much for a perfect world where any RCR trained person could walk to a van or truck (MFS, SES, CFS) and know how to operate the basics. Each will always have slight variances for local conditions.

Please tell this can already happen and equipment can be shared/connected !!!
Andrew Macmichael
lives at Pt Noarlunga South.

My personal opinion only.

Offline Andrew K

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Re: New Rescue van for CFS
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2010, 03:35:09 PM »
that ses van isn't a sprinter it is a transit,

and ergonomically for shorter people it is a nightmare, the general manufacture is pretty poor in some areas, you lose a whole locker for the light mast rather than putting it on the front of the box. space wise it will be better for light rescue than the hilux's but its not really going to be able to carry the kit we may need for day to day jobs.

Offline CFS_Firey

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Re: New Rescue van for CFS
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2010, 04:26:51 PM »
Wouldn't mind seeing some photos of the SES van if you have any...

Offline Bagyassfirey

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Re: New Rescue van for CFS
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2010, 04:41:45 PM »
This van is also no good for the taller people as ya will hit head on rear door!

Also it would only really suit the brigades that can guarantee enough crew to roll the rescue van and a tanker for fire cover (for those where next resource is miles down the road)...Brigades on south eastern free way and down south where they are forever doing RCR i could see it having use but elsewhere it might just be a pipe dream.

Offline Andrew K

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Re: New Rescue van for CFS
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2010, 04:56:51 PM »
cfs firey i posted some pics from my mobile phone in the photos section of the forum

http://www.safirefighter.com/boards/index.php?topic=2486.0

Offline 6739264

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Re: New Rescue van for CFS
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2010, 06:31:05 PM »
So here is an intersting question:

Why do the Fire Services Australia wide insist on covering the same ground, OVER AND OVER again!

- Rescue Vans? NSWFB's done that!

- Heavy Rescues? Everyone one, BUT SA, worked that out! (Volunteer AND Career)

- Hazmat Vans? CFA/NSWFB done them too!

- 14's? RFS/CFA/QRFS/DSE Got that T-Shirt!

- Medium Rural Tankers? or God forbid, Medium Urban Pumpers?! CFA/NSWFB/QFRS/MFB Smashed that one!

- Importing Trucks? QFRS and Le France Nailed that!

- Ugly Appliances? NSWFB and Old Skool QFRS FirePac 3500 win that one.

Not to mention the rest. Why do we continue to spend money on reinventing the wheel when we are so strapped for cash as it is?

The abhorrent RCR stowage kit that is now the standard across CFS (the Lukas Set, which is below the CFS's own minimum standard) is essentially only good for Rapid Intervention work. If it gets marginally complex, bad luck, call the next rescue appliance, just to ensure you finally have a full set of gear.

Why does the Rescue Van need more than 2 seats? Why don't the extra crew bring the Fire appliance? Why does the Rescue need water? Fire suppression is primarily at the job to protect the rescuers, not the casualties. Why isn't 38mm hose the norm for fire suppression (when a Fire appliance is in attendance)? Why do we carry a Foam extinguisher and not a CO2? Don't we have a truck full of foam?

Why don't the CFS use a van with a proven track record (eg: The Merc Sprinter) that has oodles of stowage space and multiple access points? - I guess it doesn't matter when you continue to reduce the Rescue stowage until it can fit into a single locker on a 34P. Don't build a truck around the stowage, just make sure you cull items from the minimum stowage until it fits in the locker!

Has anyone tried to build a decent 3x3 Box crib off a CFS appliance recently? Oh wait a tick, no need to, we don't use them crazy High Pressure Airbags. But for stabilisation, you'll get a long way with all eight of them 90x90x500 Crib blocks... Sure!

At this rate, CFS should probably hand Rescue wholly over to SES. At least they seem to take it seriously... (Well they incorporated the word into their logo, it IS a start)

Why doesn't the CFS get serious about rescue? A few Rapid Intervention kits around at stations, a few REAL Heavy Rescue trucks to cover areas. Every Rescue job gets a Fire appliance, and a Heavy, although the RIK carrying tankers can achieve 99% of the daily RCR tasks, pending the inability of the Heavy to attend.

Oh Christ, the answer to that lays with money, no doubt, but also the fact that you can't extricate someone from a car using a box of Matches and a McLeod tool... (and EWW! You might get that PBI dirty!)

Ahem, well that MIGHT have gone off topic a little but, no worries. I'm substantially calmer now, just don't ask me about the state of non-RCR Rescue in CFS...


Also:

Hey people i seen this vehicle tonight at Stirling north its not actually a pod design at all its actually road crash gear set put in 2 movable steel lockers which are set up on a wheels which fit into a groves which then slide out i have pictures if anyon1 is interested the main problems we found is that the pump and hoses are fixed to the setup and you can not take them off and move them to a car like you would at a incident it also has no fire extinguishers or cones or E Flare warning devices the only warning devices are the lights but no cones or e flares or extinguisher are on it because its basically a rapid response vechile and it would be accompanied by a 34s or 24s anyway also someone made a comment about that the new pattern design kind of resembled a ambulance as there is a ambulance that is getting around on the same chasis i have been told anyone from saas confirm that for me? i know over in nsw i have the design but not in south aus anyway reply back to me and ill upload the photos of this new rcr van

For filtered sake, learn to filtered type, you're giving me a filtered aneurysm. Maybe the CFS would be better off saving money and sending its Vollo's back to school. God help the Coroner that needs to read your goddamned Incident logs!

EDIT:

Wow, I think some [Rapid] divine intervention just occurred. These vans would be great if used properly. Since they only carry a Rapid Intervention Kit, give them to brigades so they can have fire trucks that just do firefighting (CFS Loves that) so you don't waste a locker with that pesky RCR gear. Then, ensure that you place Heavy Rescues (Firefighting capability? Not unless its RIT duties, with a stokes and powersaw) around the place to ensure full coverage. This should mean that most places will be covered by either a Rapid Intervention Spastic Van or a Heavy Rescue Hero Truck. Viola, a costly, yet workable solution...
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 06:37:04 PM by 6739264 »
To think they employed me as a drooling retard...

firefighter21

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Re: New Rescue van for CFS
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2010, 08:26:04 PM »
yes its light on storage
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 09:26:07 PM by firefighter21 »

Darren

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Re: New Rescue van for CFS
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2010, 08:41:11 PM »
No its not solving anything, build some real rescues, anyone else notice that 15 years ago a larger number of stations had real rescues, Mt Barkers is gone, Stirlings is gone, Williamstown's is gone, Yankallila's will go, Lobethals isn't even there's, they had to rely on SES for the vehicle to stow the CFS rescue gear.

Something is wrong here, CFS isn't really serious about rescue, like you said the Lukas gear is barely above the level of RIV, the onle decent kit I have seen in recent times is Mt Barkers Holmatro, CFS actually gave them a decent cutter....but took away their airbags and they can't get all the cribbing and stokes litter on the truck.

But thats ok, we will just call them MFS, they can save our butts with DECENT equipment !!

Darren

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Re: New Rescue van for CFS
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2010, 08:43:09 PM »
yes its light on storage because it is built around rapid response where the essence is you would already have another rescue recourse committed to the incident and yes that is stabfast gear and yes 1 ram is correct this is basicly to get a vechile out the door quickly with less gear and crew


No its designed to replace having the gear on a 34P or 24P, so this idea of it being above is wrong mate, very wrong. No idea where you got that idea from, if your brigade is on the cards to get one, then you must realise that this will be your rescue, there won't be any other gear !

firefighter21

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Re: New Rescue van for CFS
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2010, 08:59:25 PM »
well not necessarily
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 09:32:28 PM by firefighter21 »

Offline 6739264

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Re: New Rescue van for CFS
« Reply #46 on: June 03, 2010, 09:20:23 PM »
yes its light on storage because it is built around rapid response where the essence is you would already have another rescue recourse committed to the incident and yes that is stabfast gear and yes 1 ram is correct this is basicly to get a vechile out the door quickly with less gear and crew

So this vehicle cannot perform Rescue tasks all on its lonesome! News Flash to the CFS you don't build a whole vehicle to simply stow the contents of a single locker on a 34P. Good god I hope the Appliances R&D section of the Service dies in a horrible Fire Truck accident soon.

No its not solving anything, build some real rescues, anyone else notice that 15 years ago a larger number of stations had real rescues, Mt Barkers is gone, Stirlings is gone, Williamstown's is gone, Yankallila's will go, Lobethals isn't even there's, they had to rely on SES for the vehicle to stow the CFS rescue gear.

Something is wrong here, CFS isn't really serious about rescue, like you said the Lukas gear is barely above the level of RIV, the onle decent kit I have seen in recent times is Mt Barkers Holmatro, CFS actually gave them a decent cutter....but took away their airbags and they can't get all the cribbing and stokes litter on the truck.

But thats ok, we will just call them MFS, they can save our butts with DECENT equipment !!

Real Rescues went out the door as soon as the difference between "RCR Light" and "RCR Heavy" left the Green Bible. I do wonder why the CFS official 2004 RCR stowage list lists "Rapid Intervention" and "CFS Heavy" as the two categories of list. Now, you will notice upon inspection of the given list that the minimum requirements for "CFS Heavy" is below that of the minimum standard as given by the Green bible. Uh, hello? CFS? You can't do that.

We currently have:

*Minimum* RCR Kit as per Green Book
(Which is essentially a Fischer Price "My First Rescue Kit")
NB: This is meant to be the agreed upon minimum stowage to be listed in the book as a Rescue Resource.

"CFS Heavy"
Doesn't meet above minimum

"Rapid Intervention"
Doesn't meet above minimum, nor is it ever specified in Green Book.

Currently, I think only Mt. Barker is the only thing that manages to resemble the "Old" Heavy Rescues like Virginia, Stirling and Mt. Barker had, and even that is a shadow of its former self.

Couple to the whole Rescue debacle the fact that places like Blackwood, Millicent, Mt. Barker and Stirling have a crippled Urban capability since they have an Urban Pumper chocked full of Rescue gear in a mish mash of places to make it fit. Where are the Stand Alone Rescues these days? Of the 9 CFS Appliances that dare to call themselves "Rescue" 5 are stand alone, and apart from Aldinga Beach, they're all in the sticks, out of the reach of CFSHQ... for now. (Not to mention they all look really old, and probably due for abolition soon)

Why do we have Brigades with major transport corridors that DO NOT have Airbags? (HAB and LAB) Yet why is there a CFS TRK for them? Where is the CFSVA? This is putting volunteers at risk having to use Spreaders and Rams without adequate stabilisation to perform tasks that the equipment isn't really designed for. Someone call OH&S Branch!

Start putting in those near miss forms.

Oh also, I hate to tell you CFS, but those Brigades that have "full" Rescue stowage on their pumper, actually makes it a "Pump Rescue" or "Rescue Pump"... A "Rescue" ain't got no water on it!

well not necessarily busy road crash brigades like the Adelaide hills and my brigade Stirling north will have this as a second lot of rcr gear as our gear on the 34P will not be going anywhere. region 4 haven't shown much interest in a rcr one they said its more suited for the Adelaide hills area but are interested in the one for hazmat as there are only about 5 or so hazmat brigades in region 4 which are Clare, Stirling north,Jamestown, woomera and coober pedy and the hazmat van would be more useful than a rcr we see because we feel the need for one for hazmat rather than rcr as we have numerous rcr resources we can rely on unless they cant pull a crew in which is the reason for rapid response rcr just in case they need a rcr brigade defaults and its about 100km from the brigade that gets paged for that brigade.

Hahaha, no. That will not happen. Is the CFS actually going to spend money on new kit let alone a whole mini truck for it? Show me a "Busy" Rescue Brigade that couldn't stow Rapid Intervention kit on their second truck. Combi-Tool, Ram, Pump, Crib Blocks, Wedge bags, and PPK. That'll almost fit into two 24 lockers, let alone the "Rescue" Locker on a 34P

Also: .,.,.,.,.,:" " ", ..,.,.,''''',.,.,.,.,.,,,.,.,,,,,.,.,,..,.,  just had them lying around, thought you might be able to use them so that you could actually communicate in a language other than dribble.
To think they employed me as a drooling retard...

Darren

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Re: New Rescue van for CFS
« Reply #47 on: June 03, 2010, 09:29:02 PM »
I actually got told once that if you want specialist gear then call the SES....no worries, so long as you don't want it today, thanks for dropping the ball on that CFS, I am sure they will drag out the "We are poor line"  :x

Offline 6739264

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Re: New Rescue van for CFS
« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2010, 09:42:03 PM »
I actually got told once that if you want specialist gear then call the SES....no worries, so long as you don't want it today, thanks for dropping the ball on that CFS, I am sure they will drag out the "We are poor line"  :x

Wow. Please start turning the SES out to all RCR's. That would be grand. I'd love to find out what this "specialist" gear is...

Do the CFS Rescue Gods sit around and ponder "Hmm if we need Two medium rams to perfom a full Dash Roll, then lets give all the brigades.... ONE...SHORT RAM! Yes!"

According to current stowage, CFS Rescue Operators will never ever need to roll both sides of a dash simultaneously, cross ram off anything BUT the transmission tunnel, perform ANY inverted floor/roof displacement procedures, nor will they ever need to displace any part of a vehicle with chains and spreaders, be it dash of steering column.

Why do we train our operators in techniques that they CANNOT perform at their Brigades due to insufficent/inadequate equipment?

Why does the CFS treat Rescue as such a joke?
To think they employed me as a drooling retard...

Darren

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Re: New Rescue van for CFS
« Reply #49 on: June 03, 2010, 09:52:39 PM »
Well why don't we ask the powers to be, send a letter to the powers mate.