Author Topic: anyone hear this one on the radio?  (Read 8620 times)

Offline boredmatrix

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anyone hear this one on the radio?
« on: September 10, 2009, 09:59:23 AM »
mate of mine rang me this AM - apparently there were some very public comments made on Triple M this morning about St John struggling with the staffing the show and that the showgrounds are "annoyed at the substandard service" and will be putting first aid services out to tender for future events......

did anyone hear it or can elaborate??

Offline PeterPefect

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Re: anyone hear this one on the radio?
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2009, 10:51:10 AM »
I heard it and yeh its true. Some major stuff up at this years show by the johnnies. SES mates said the SAAS crews were screaming at the johnies at last nights stabbing, apparently they did something very wrong while treating the guy. When i was on duty there on Sunday with SES  they only had a few on duty and their uniforms are a very dads army looking some in poorly fitted green, some in black and white some in yellow rain coats bought from target with badges poorly sewn on. Some had green rain coats that looked that big they appeared to be wearing skits. Some sitting in their st john vehicles looking like they were ready to pounce on some poor granny who faints.

Its a shame because I think st john was once good but they are were CFS and SES was 10 years ago, haven't moved with the times.

Offline straps

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Re: anyone hear this one on the radio?
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2009, 02:22:46 PM »
I cannot comment as I did not hear the radio broadcast and wasn't on site to know about the delivery of care to the patient mentioned, however I will comment about the resource management and say that I think that public and event organiser perception of resources required to manage an event is a very subjective one, (I am NOT talking specifically about the Royal Show but event management in general).

Any private medical provider would be unlikely to supply more than 20 people to service an event the size of the Royal Adelaide Show. I suspect that St John is keen not to grossly oversupply with resources however recognise that being a larger and longer event than most events encountered, that welcoming extra members to attend is a positive and proactive move to increasing workload exposure and retaining members.

Data has been collated that shows that 80 - 90% of casualty presentations / treatments are usually made to fixed / static post rather than encountered by a mobile resource. Also, the quantity of resources will rarely impact upon response times, IF the quality of the intelligence about a job coming into the responding agency is not good or accurate. CFS / SES and SAAS can all relate to this.

There will be those who will mock and knock St John irrespective of what is posted. This may be due to their past negative dealings with the organisation or their own agendas to run. Again this is not dissimilar to that of other agencies such as CFS / SES and SAAS.

The beauty of a "rumour file" similarly to have a pseudonym on this site, is that you can pretty much say anything you like and not be held accountable or responsible for the statements made, meaning that one can talk completely out of their backside if they chose with no recourse.

Put their name to it and provide some facts, then maybe there would lie some opportunity for follow up and change....!!!

Cheers
Shane

**My thoughts and comments above are mine only and not endorsed or approved by my agency**
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 03:52:45 PM by straps »

Offline bajdas

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Re: anyone hear this one on the radio?
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2009, 04:31:52 PM »
Worked with St John's volunteers today at the showgrounds and experienced no issues.

Their response times to the incident was very quick. Always a senior with the juniors.

SES and St John have worked out a working relationship at the coal-face so we each know our roles to support each other. It was enjoyable volunteering with them.

I did not hear the media discussion, but we all know the media will go for the sensational aspect of a high public exposure incident.....

I will look forward has a SES volunteer to working with St John people on Saturday.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 04:40:41 PM by bajdas »
Andrew Macmichael
lives at Pt Noarlunga South.

My personal opinion only.

Offline JC

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Re: anyone hear this one on the radio?
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2009, 08:09:32 AM »
Just out of interest what age do they stop being a St John junior/cadet?
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Offline jaff

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Re: anyone hear this one on the radio?
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2009, 10:01:57 AM »
Just out of interest what age do they stop being a St John junior/cadet?



 :wink:............ :-o........... :evil:
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Offline straps

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Re: anyone hear this one on the radio?
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2009, 10:06:41 AM »
JC,
8 - 11   - St John Junior (These members don't go on duty)
11 - 18  - St John Cadet (They go on duty with an Adult member and treat casualties under supervision)
18 +     - St John Adult

Cheers
Shane

Offline JC

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Re: anyone hear this one on the radio?
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2009, 08:10:33 AM »
Very funny Jaff. :-D Sorry I'm no priest. :-o

Worked with St John's volunteers today at the showgrounds and experienced no issues.

Their response times to the incident was very quick. Always a senior with the juniors.

SES and St John have worked out a working relationship at the coal-face so we each know our roles to support each other. It was enjoyable volunteering with them.

I did not hear the media discussion, but we all know the media will go for the sensational aspect of a high public exposure incident.....

I will look forward has a SES volunteer to working with St John people on Saturday.

So potentially a person 11-18 was exposed to that stabbing incident. :?

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Offline boredmatrix

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Re: anyone hear this one on the radio?
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2009, 10:22:48 AM »
Any private medical provider would be unlikely to supply more than 20 people to service an event the size of the Royal Adelaide Show.

 maybe in SA - but there are many private companies around who now do the majority of major work interstate (including stadiums, RAH&S shows, concerts etc) - who's to say that this won't happen in SA?  There is one private company in SA, but from the gusy I know who work for them- they focus more on the higher risk events, and go interstate to do a lot of their work.



I suspect that St John is keen not to grossly oversupply with resources however recognise that being a larger and longer event than most events encountered, that welcoming extra members to attend is a positive and proactive move to increasing workload exposure and retaining members.

this may be the case shane, but wouldn't quality over quantity also be a requirement?



rumour flying around SAAS at present is that there are a lot of SAAS para's who've been to the show to pick up patients who have had significant illness or injury, and the black and white brothers and sisters were seemingly oblivious to the significance or need for urgent medical intervention.  One would have to ask if this is a Blase' attitude or simply out of their depth??











Offline PeterPefect

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Re: anyone hear this one on the radio?
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2009, 03:14:44 PM »
Gee St John shouldnt be exposing their cadets to stabbings should they??? :?. SES/CFS would never expose our cadets to fatal RCR scenes or other life scaring events.

Offline boredmatrix

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Re: anyone hear this one on the radio?
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2009, 10:12:57 PM »
As a first aid trainer, your job would be quite simple - through teaching a nationally accredited programme which has to conform to pretty rigid AQTF frameworks.

your employer, if they are based in SA, would have been involved in a consultative process during the last 12 months - spearheaded by SafeWork SA, which reviewed the First Aid Code of Practice for worksites and employers.  While this is in reference primarily to the number of staff who should be first aid trained and the level of training required, plus equipment which should be carried.  While this area is based solely around risk reduction and the responsibilities of employers - it highlights another point!

Medical care is based around a high level of education, coupled with the ability to make safe effective patient care decisions based on diagnostic acumen, and then deciding on an appropriate patient care pathway based on, again, high level of education, skills based training and a formal examination process which is required to fit into an AQTF framework.  

First Aid (in terms of the volunteer first aid sector....) on the other hand - is based on common sense (ie: if it's bleeding -stop it, if it's broken - Splint it, if it's not beating -push on it etc etc), and the ability to recognise if and when a patient needs further diagnoses or treatment - where to get said treatment -  and/or whether or not the patient requires definitive care +/- other urgent interventions(eg: surgery, CathLab etc).

Where the issue comes about (for me...as a health care professional) is when these people put on their pretty uniform  and seem to think they are God's Gift to public safety - when in reality they are making some silly decisions which have adverse patient outcomes because they don't a) have particularly good knowledge of A&P and PathoPhys, coupled with patient assesment and/or diagnostic skills and b) because they have a maligned opinion of their own abilities!  (nb: point b) usually results in these people pretending that point a) is something they are experts at....clearly folling not only themselves, but sadly - some of the public...)

The death of the punter at the Perth BDO is a prime example of an illicit drug OD who presented with all the classic symptoms, but was given a bottle of water and D/C into the crowd without even a proper assesment!  The fact she was legally a minor raises the question of both appropriate clinical aptitude AND policy surrounding the treatment of minors (in relation to duty of care) which should be a policy position, not only to the first aid provider (in this case St John) - but a policy statement for the event!

Sometimes...a little knowledge is very dangerous - the rest of the time....ignorance is bliss - until the coroner tells you otherwise!!

As one of the defenders of one such organisation has pointed out in a previous post- it is easy to hide behind a pseudonym on a forum - so I'm guessing you're just going to have to take (or not) my word for it as someone who's not only been involved with the black and white brigade (and got out just before my cortex was removed....) , but who has witnessed some of the atrocities applied in the name of patient care.....and cringing in fear knowing that it would be me picking up the pieces!
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 10:15:47 PM by boredmatrix »

Offline RescueHazmat

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Re: anyone hear this one on the radio?
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2009, 08:19:17 PM »
I was at the show on the first Saturday, saw what might have been lucky to be an 11 year old, walking around on her own, with a Radio and one of the Athsma bags, wearing the blue Cadet eppiluetes..


Its about time the Show management put on HealthCare Professionals at these events. Whether SAAS actually put a number of Paramedics there, or private companies get to tender with properly qualified personell.

While we are at it, can't we go anywhere these days without the risk of getting stabbed!   Jesus!

Offline crashndash

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Re: anyone hear this one on the radio?
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2009, 08:57:00 PM »
i think if u find out the details of the incident it will reinforce that if you swim with sharks you may occasionally get bitten

Offline BunnyBuster

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Re: anyone hear this one on the radio?
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2009, 06:25:09 AM »
Its about time the Show management put on HealthCare Professionals at these events. Whether SAAS actually put a number of Paramedics there, or private companies get to tender with properly qualified personell.

SAAS are pricing themselves out of event work - from what I hear their prices have almost doubled recently. Certainly leaves it open for the private companies - IMO as long as they have decent clinical standards and training (unlike some of the services that up until recently used to have ambulance licenses) then why shouldn't they pick up the event stuff.

Let's just hope whoever replaces the Johnnies at the show have enough brains not to stick their finger in an open stab wound 'to see how deep it is'. :roll:

Offline crashndash

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Re: anyone hear this one on the radio?
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2009, 07:42:50 AM »
Its about time the Show management put on HealthCare Professionals at these events. Whether SAAS actually put a number of Paramedics there, or private companies get to tender with properly qualified personell.

SAAS are pricing themselves out of event work - from what I hear their prices have almost doubled recently. Certainly leaves it open for the private companies - IMO as long as they have decent clinical standards and training (unlike some of the services that up until recently used to have ambulance licenses) then why shouldn't they pick up the event stuff.

Let's just hope whoever replaces the Johnnies at the show have enough brains not to stick their finger in an open stab wound 'to see how deep it is'. :roll:

it's a conscious effort by SAAS to remove themselves from event medical coverage (horse racing etc)tying up fleet and staff, so no surprise their costs have increased.

As for the stabbing.,...well, maybe we could be charitable and say they were applying direct pressure....lolol....or then again....let's not  :evil:

Offline straps

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Re: anyone hear this one on the radio?
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2009, 07:35:33 AM »
Its about time the Show management put on HealthCare Professionals at these events. Whether SAAS actually put a number of Paramedics there, or private companies get to tender with properly qualified personell.

St John rostered healthcare professionals on every day of the Show, this varied from experienced Nursing Staff, Paramedic and IC Paramedic staff through to Medical Officers. Many of these HCP's are also accredited under the National Clinical Practice Guidelines and from my preliminary discussions with a few of the HCP's that were on duty, there was 10+ hospital avoidances with the patient  either being discharged to home or being returned to the event.

For what it is worth, (and many of you will still have your own thoughts), any cadet at the show after 1800 would be most likely a Senior Cadet, meaning approximately 15+ yo and would have a senior first aid certificate. They are a great clinical resource and a risk assessment is undertaken before each event as to determine the role / scope for cadets at events.

Cheers
Shane

Offline boredmatrix

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Re: anyone hear this one on the radio?
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2009, 11:38:02 PM »

For what it is worth, (and many of you will still have your own thoughts), any cadet at the show after 1800 would be most likely a Senior Cadet, meaning approximately 15+ yo and would have a senior first aid certificate. They are a great clinical resource and a risk assessment is undertaken before each event as to determine the role / scope for cadets at events.

Cheers
Shane

so...they're not allowed to buy alcohol, not allowed to buy smokes, are considered a minor in all facets of law - yet they're considered a "senior" (sic) by St JOhn?

15 year olds are designed to be exploited by big corporations like KFC, Woolwoorths, Mcdonalds and Coles-Myer.....not organisations like St Jacks...

[  And no-one mention the exploitation that happens in shower blocks at cadet camps!!!  ]     :evil: :evil: :evil:

Offline CFS_Firey

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Re: anyone hear this one on the radio?
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2009, 11:44:59 PM »
so...they're not allowed to buy alcohol, not allowed to buy smokes, are considered a minor in all facets of law - yet they're considered a "senior" (sic) by St JOhn?

To be fair it is senior cadet, and cadets are pretty low in the ranks by anyone's standards...

Offline crashndash

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Re: anyone hear this one on the radio?
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2009, 01:29:43 PM »
yeah.....even we wait till they are 16 to exploit them.... :evil:

Offline JC

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Re: anyone hear this one on the radio?
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2009, 08:31:41 PM »
[
Its about time the Show management put on HealthCare Professionals at these events. Whether SAAS actually put a number of Paramedics there, or private companies get to tender with properly qualified personell.

St John rostered healthcare professionals on every day of the Show, this varied from experienced Nursing Staff, Paramedic and IC Paramedic staff through to Medical Officers. Many of these HCP's are also accredited under the National Clinical Practice Guidelines and from my preliminary discussions with a few of the HCP's that were on duty, there was 10+ hospital avoidances with the patient  either being discharged to home or being returned to the event.

For what it is worth, (and many of you will still have your own thoughts), any cadet at the show after 1800 would be most likely a Senior Cadet, meaning approximately 15+ yo and would have a senior first aid certificate. They are a great clinical resource and a risk assessment is undertaken before each event as to determine the role / scope for cadets at events.
Cheers
Shane

Who in there right mind would contemplate exposing a 15yo to a stabbing (as it were in this case). It is f*&king disgraceful that St John would allow this to happen. :evil:
If they are going to be used as a first aider at events this big, they should be confined to a treatment tent etc. under the strict supervision of a experienced, fully qualified adult (and by qualified i mean training above first aid and by adult i mean someone 25+).

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Offline crashndash

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Re: anyone hear this one on the radio?
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2009, 09:17:46 PM »
lol.... I re-iterate my point.....WE let them (indeed activley pursue them to step up) attend as a fully operational member to all jobs, including life risk (to them) and exposure to trauma (involving them others) at 16. Lets not be too quick with the stones.....our glasshouse is exposed too.

For the interested....the research is actually fairly reasonable that exposure at that age, that is well managed, presents no greater harm to teens (in this case 14-18) than it does adults. I'll try and find the reference, its tucked away somewhere in some study from a while ago now.

Offline straps

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Re: anyone hear this one on the radio?
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2009, 11:21:01 PM »
[
Its about time the Show management put on HealthCare Professionals at these events. Whether SAAS actually put a number of Paramedics there, or private companies get to tender with properly qualified personell.

St John rostered healthcare professionals on every day of the Show, this varied from experienced Nursing Staff, Paramedic and IC Paramedic staff through to Medical Officers. Many of these HCP's are also accredited under the National Clinical Practice Guidelines and from my preliminary discussions with a few of the HCP's that were on duty, there was 10+ hospital avoidances with the patient  either being discharged to home or being returned to the event.

For what it is worth, (and many of you will still have your own thoughts), any cadet at the show after 1800 would be most likely a Senior Cadet, meaning approximately 15+ yo and would have a senior first aid certificate. They are a great clinical resource and a risk assessment is undertaken before each event as to determine the role / scope for cadets at events.
Cheers
Shane

Who in there right mind would contemplate exposing a 15yo to a stabbing (as it were in this case). It is f*&king disgraceful that St John would allow this to happen. :evil:
If they are going to be used as a first aider at events this big, they should be confined to a treatment tent etc. under the strict supervision of a experienced, fully qualified adult (and by qualified i mean training above first aid and by adult i mean someone 25+).



I have to ask, where has it been established as a fact that a cadet was present at the stabbing..???

Our cadets undergo training, both clinical as well as personal skills and attributes as part of youth development. It is a combination of the above as well as the support of adult members that sees them intergrate and utilise their skills as the situations arise. As I said before, events are assessed as to their suitability for cadet involvement, however we cannot forsee every circumstance so it is always possible that "the unexpected may happen"....

Thanks to CnD for pointing out something that I was thinking... Other agencies are not that different with its cadets.

St John 'identifies' its cadets by epaulette markings, do other services provide any on uniform markings to signify a cadet..???

Cheers
Shane
« Last Edit: September 20, 2009, 11:22:50 PM by straps »

Offline jaff

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Re: anyone hear this one on the radio?
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2009, 11:52:04 PM »
No straps CFS doesn't have epilettes or markings for cadets......though they are easy to spot, there the ones still smiling and not jaded by the voluntary emergency service realities :-P
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Offline boredmatrix

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Re: anyone hear this one on the radio?
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2009, 12:22:18 AM »
don't mention eppaulettes......on green uniforms- the AEA will have a conniption!!!

Offline JC

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Re: anyone hear this one on the radio?
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2009, 12:55:44 AM »
CnD, every brigade i have been in did not allow -18s to attend an MVA & if they were on the truck at the time of call, they wouldn't be allowed near the car until the severity of injuries was determined. For fires etc everyone is there with the same goal get the fire out safely. You tell me everyone involved / at a stabbing/fight is there for the same goal, it is a totally unsafe environment for a 15yo ie uncontrolled situation. As for actively pursuing them to step up, we also left it up to them to decide if they were ready. Nothing like putting undue pressure on a junior.

Straps, it was mentioned in one of the first couple of post's. They may have been there, they may have not, its not the point, it has nothing to do with the fact they are looking at an open stab wound, a person has just been STABBED,its the risk of serious harm to the first aiders. Are the police usually in attendance first?
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