Author Topic: New CFS pumpers  (Read 42404 times)

Offline Alan J

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Re: New CFS pumpers
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2009, 12:52:24 AM »
Of course, it would be even cheaper again to mount the big pump on a trailer.
To be towed behind the Hyundai van of course...

Alan J.
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Re: New CFS pumpers
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2009, 12:54:05 AM »
We push push push, but we don't have several hundred thousand in our account, so we can only push so far.

This isn't the worst idea, but needs to be looked at very carefully, and SHOULD NOT be seen as a one size fits all truck, NOT a hazmat truck, NOT an RCR truck, just a jump in and go to the fire vehicle. Hose, BA, and a decent pump.
I would hope brigades won't accept this to do the jobs of a full size rescue/hazmat pumper.

Offline BundyBear

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Re: New CFS pumpers
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2009, 01:23:27 AM »
We push push push, but we don't have several hundred thousand in our account, so we can only push so far.

This isn't the worst idea, but needs to be looked at very carefully, and SHOULD NOT be seen as a one size fits all truck, NOT a hazmat truck, NOT an RCR truck, just a jump in and go to the fire vehicle. Hose, BA, and a decent pump.
I would hope brigades won't accept this to do the jobs of a full size rescue/hazmat pumper.

 Wait till you have to operate one of these small appliances at a reasonably busy brigade not good mate!

 I'd like to see one pumper fit all obviously it would probably fail with carrying HAZMAT gear but why not have a good general pumper design with decent stowage, hoses, pump and room for rescue gear. Possibly you could have a reduced HAZMAT storage on there for the HAZMAT brigades instead of the rescue gear.

What ever happened to having a standardized fleet like other fire services?
If we build the same thing for all brigades that require pumpers would not that make sense?

The wheel just seems to spin around not long ago we tried these small pumpers and years before that some 15+ years ago we had rescue vans. Infrastructure and Logistics in CFS HQ are not coming up with any innovations they are just going in circles.

 Give me a good reason for not building decent size pumpers?

I'm not having a go I'm just throwing it out there!

Offline Darcyq

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Re: New CFS pumpers
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2009, 08:08:19 AM »
The other issue not yet mentioned is size, and in this case it "does count". Some of the streets / lanes in the 'urban fringe' are so tight that you would be lucky to get a 34p into so you can forget even trying to use something like Burnsides Pumper other than for relay pumping. So the concept of a 'mini-pumper' as a 12 replacement is certainly worth a thought.

Offline bittenyakka

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Re: New CFS pumpers
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2009, 09:55:12 AM »
Are you all thinking this is what we will see in urban fringe brigades like your happy valley and Morphett vales etc or the brigades just back from them (ie not righto on urban fringe) like  Aldgate, Piccadilly, most of Sturt group.

I like the stowage layout on the CFA truck But think the cab looks a little tight

Offline Darius

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Re: New CFS pumpers
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2009, 03:50:05 PM »
I don't understand what the fuss is about pumpers in CFS.  MFS has spent the effort and money developing a good urban pumper, why doesn't CFS just tack on to their orders (in white)?  Instead either the I&L staff or volunteers like Burnside members put in so much time and effort, free usually, reinventing the wheel. 

How much does/did the following cost:
- an MFS pumper?
- Burnside's pumper?
- now what was the real cost of Burnside's pumper if you include all the volunteer time (and brigade fund-raised money of course)?
- Stirling pumper? (including all the repairs and volunteer time)
- refurbishing the Dennis?
- a newly designed 12 pumper type appliance?  including staff time/wages writing the specs, inspections, volunteer consultation etc etc

I bet if you work out the real costs then buying white MFS pumpers would be cheaper, quicker, a lot less hassle for all concerned and result in a far better outcome for the community.

Offline Zippy

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Re: New CFS pumpers
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2009, 03:55:38 PM »
The Cost difference between a CFS 34P & a TFS 3.1P is big enough lol...CFS spend so much on low value appliances...

Offline BundyBear

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Re: New CFS pumpers
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2009, 01:36:18 AM »
The other issue not yet mentioned is size, and in this case it "does count". Some of the streets / lanes in the 'urban fringe' are so tight that you would be lucky to get a 34p into so you can forget even trying to use something like Burnsides Pumper other than for relay pumping. So the concept of a 'mini-pumper' as a 12 replacement is certainly worth a thought.

I'm on the urban fringe and yes a 34P, Burnside pumper and a Scania find it tight in some streets but you would not drive those streets at a greater pace in a smaller appliance to make that much difference in arrival times. Plus these little pumpers have not got the acceleration or torque of larger engined appliances.

Darius I've heard a lot of brigades ask this question that you've raised you'd think cooperation on this might be a good idea from both CFS and MFS considering any business that orders greater numbers in anything the price is cheaper.Plus a white or red paint job cant be to hard!

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Re: New CFS pumpers
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2009, 07:42:33 AM »
Yes but Arfa didn't think of it, so it can't be a good idea.....he just calls us MFS wannabe's when someone mentions it..... :roll:

Offline Alan J

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Re: New CFS pumpers
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2009, 12:41:51 AM »
Not neccessarily in favour of the little pumper idea, but it is reasonable way
to get a decent pump close to fires down some of the laneways up in them thar
hills. I can think of a few within a few km that our old 24 is unpleasantly
tight. Our 34 just can't go there. These are bitumen through-roads, not driveways.  And 24 is due for repplacement with an even bigger 34. 

Once you add parked cars, the smaller vehicle gets better again.
While the big pumper has the muscle to shove parked cars around, there
sometimes isn't an out-of-the-way place to shove them ...

Alan J.
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Offline Darcyq

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Re: New CFS pumpers
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2009, 03:47:06 PM »
When I referred to size it wasn't speed that i was concerned with but what Alan J just mentioned, we have streets here that if two cars are parked either side, there is no way through without "repositioning " one of them.

Reading today's Advertiser's "carsguide" it has an article on the new Canter range. They are now releasing a crew cab with a GVM of 7.5 tonne auto (2x4) A  new engine mated to a Auto trans, 130Kw & 530Nm which they say is an increase of 14% pwr & 26% Tq over the Isuzu N series and 18% pwr & 36% Tq over the Hino 300. The question is are these figures capable of driving a 500gpm - 750gpm pump, carry 1000lt, sufficient hose and 4 BA.

As a comparison, Isuzu FTS 800 figures are 176Kw & 706Nm, 13,500 Kg GVM
                  Isuzu NPS 300 figures are 114Kw & 419Nm, 6000Kg GVM
                  Previous Canter figures were 110Kw & 471Nm, 6000Kg GVM

                     

ltdan

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Re: New CFS pumpers
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2009, 07:53:24 PM »
From a brigade who currently has a 12 pumper appliance, I think it is a great idea for cfs looking at building 12 pumper appliances.

Besides the current 12 which we have is a bit slow on response due to the weight on the vehicle, they are a very versatile appliance.

These type of appliances are good in our area where vehicle access is tight.  Majority of our area of response you would find it difficult to drive a 34 or 34p in driveways etc.

These appliances can be used for a urban and rural response with asset protection.

Well Done to CFS for looking at this !!

Offline BundyBear

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Re: New CFS pumpers
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2009, 12:41:03 AM »
From a brigade who currently has a 12 pumper appliance, I think it is a great idea for cfs looking at building 12 pumper appliances.

Besides the current 12 which we have is a bit slow on response due to the weight on the vehicle, they are a very versatile appliance.

These type of appliances are good in our area where vehicle access is tight.  Majority of our area of response you would find it difficult to drive a 34 or 34p in driveways etc.

These appliances can be used for a urban and rural response with asset protection.

Well Done to CFS for looking at this !!


They may be viable for one or two brigades, our brigade got rid or our little pumper for the fact it had shocking acceleration away from intersections and torque for climbing hills, cramped for crew, PTO pump was to small not big enough for a real pumper and I think you'll find the stations that have got these little appliances left like Stirling have a real size pumper in the station as well (I'm not just talking actual cab/chasis size!)

Plus if there are driveways in your area that you can't get an appliance down just do what we do inform the resident and you'll see changes if they're serious about their property's protection. Should we be taking appliances in such tight areas?

This whole small pumper thing if it happens is just a smoke and mirrors deal from CFS corporate as they have not got the balls to ask for whats really needed. So to look good for the government ministers we get a sub standard product. Hence let's buy a second-hand Dennis then jump through hurdles!

Look at how offen they change tenders and the lack of quality on the appliances. If cheap as chips could build them CFS infastructure and logistics would be giving them a contract. Another question when is it that CFS has purchased a fleet of vehicles and there has only been slight teething issues? Not for a long time!


Offline Pipster

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Re: New CFS pumpers
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2009, 10:06:32 AM »

They may be viable for one or two brigades, our brigade got rid or our little pumper for the fact it had shocking acceleration away from intersections and torque for climbing hills, cramped for crew, PTO pump was to small not big enough for a real pumper and I think you'll find the stations that have got these little appliances left like Stirling have a real size pumper in the station as well (I'm not just talking actual cab/chasis size!)

Plus if there are driveways in your area that you can't get an appliance down just do what we do inform the resident and you'll see changes if they're serious about their property's protection. Should we be taking appliances in such tight areas?

This whole small pumper thing if it happens is just a smoke and mirrors deal from CFS corporate as they have not got the balls to ask for whats really needed. So to look good for the government ministers we get a sub standard product. Hence let's buy a second-hand Dennis then jump through hurdles!

Look at how offen they change tenders and the lack of quality on the appliances. If cheap as chips could build them CFS infastructure and logistics would be giving them a contract. Another question when is it that CFS has purchased a fleet of vehicles and there has only been slight teething issues? Not for a long time!


SO we can complain to the local council, and they will them undertake extensive road works to enable us to drive our big 34's, and our large urban pumpers down the narrow and winding roads in the Adelaide Hills.....!  That ain't going to happen!

We can have a word to the local residents, but if the driveway is too narrow, or the hairpin bend halfway down is too tight for the large trucks, it is often unlikely that the resident can do much to change that, even if they wanted to.

And if your old appliance didn't do the job effectively, why does that automatically mean any new appliance / new design going to have the same problem?

And is it really smoke and mirrors - could some brigades have actually asked for a mini pumper, and CFS is responding?

Did you know that the Dennis purchase was an experiment, to see if the vehicle would be suitable for CFS.  The issues that it had showed it wasn't - hence we only have one lemon, rather than a whole fleet!

As has been discussed numerous times on various forums, one size doesn't fit all - and here is an opportunity for CFS to trial something new - and yet they are bagged for it.  

But when they introduce a fleet of appliances, they get bagged for not trialling it!

Let's hope we all get a look at the mini pumper, and you never know, it might turn out to be a useful appliance!!

Pip


PS Of the three remaining 12's in the fleet, only Stirling has a larger Pumper (well, when it is actually at Stirling) - the other two brigades don't.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2009, 12:07:20 PM by Pipster »
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Offline bittenyakka

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Re: New CFS pumpers
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2009, 10:16:33 AM »
Also i assume that the new canters and other chassis have come along way in terms of power compared to 20yr old ford traders.

ltdan

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Re: New CFS pumpers
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2009, 11:29:25 AM »
From a brigade who currently has a 12 pumper appliance, I think it is a great idea for cfs looking at building 12 pumper appliances.

Besides the current 12 which we have is a bit slow on response due to the weight on the vehicle, they are a very versatile appliance.

These type of appliances are good in our area where vehicle access is tight.  Majority of our area of response you would find it difficult to drive a 34 or 34p in driveways etc.

These appliances can be used for a urban and rural response with asset protection.

Well Done to CFS for looking at this !!


They may be viable for one or two brigades, our brigade got rid or our little pumper for the fact it had shocking acceleration away from intersections and torque for climbing hills, cramped for crew, PTO pump was to small not big enough for a real pumper and I think you'll find the stations that have got these little appliances left like Stirling have a real size pumper in the station as well (I'm not just talking actual cab/chasis size!)

Plus if there are driveways in your area that you can't get an appliance down just do what we do inform the resident and you'll see changes if they're serious about their property's protection. Should we be taking appliances in such tight areas?

This whole small pumper thing if it happens is just a smoke and mirrors deal from CFS corporate as they have not got the balls to ask for whats really needed. So to look good for the government ministers we get a sub standard product. Hence let's buy a second-hand Dennis then jump through hurdles!

Look at how offen they change tenders and the lack of quality on the appliances. If cheap as chips could build them CFS infastructure and logistics would be giving them a contract. Another question when is it that CFS has purchased a fleet of vehicles and there has only been slight teething issues? Not for a long time!

Sorry Bundy Bear but I totally disagree with you.

Yes, accelaratio is not the same like a Hino 24 but the accelaration is not that bad, maybe slow in some areas but with a splitter gear box it is not the end of the world.  Agree sometimes a bit emabarassing that a push bike rider probably can go faster than you up a hill.  But remember this, those appliances are 23 years old and are still going hard.  Remember they are a 2.4litre non turbo diesel, so for what they are they are pretty good.

My station does not have a bigger pumper the 350 GPM PTO pump  on the 12 appliance is a good pump for the size of the tank and size of the  appliance, kicks filtered over my 24 waterous/deutz pump.

You can tell the resident to make their driveway better but this can not always occur.  As Pip said, how will we change roads which belong to local councils and Transport SA when it is cheaper to provide an appliance to suit the response area.  I can assure you that the discussion with a 34 or 34P has been discussed with our brigade in the recent years and it has been physically proven that these appliances are not safe to manouvre in the area and making it difficult to respond.  What does this mean when there is a big job in our area and we need strike teams to come in for support, I just don't know. Also I am talking about normal roads, not dirt tracks.

Think about going up someone driveway to respond to a domestic or asset protection response, and tell the owner or nearby resident that we can not help you because we can't get up your driveway.  I reckon that would look great on the Morning Advertiser don't you think!!

The CFS is not smoke & mirrors this is an issue which has been discussed by me to the CFS and it is now being investigated and idead are being discussed.  So really, I guess they are listening to the volunteer and adressing specific response area problems.  So stop bitching about CFS in not listening to CFS volunteers when in fact they are.

If you think I am full of filtered, mate bring your 34 or 34P to my response area and I will see if you are a truck driver or a truck steerer.  Maybe you don't drive a truck at all.  I would be happy to show you the response and let you have some appreciation to what some brigades in the hills deal with.

Thanks PIP for your support.  I know you have exactly the same problem when your 24 is replaced.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2009, 11:54:14 AM by ltdan »

Offline jaff

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Re: New CFS pumpers
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2009, 11:42:42 AM »
Lets skip all the narrow, over vegitated driveways, lets skip all the questionable appliance builds, lets skip the long response times on windy hills roads, the answer is simple to all these conundrums A TRUE ONE SIZE, FITS ALL APPLIANCE.......The Boeing, yes sir house fires BOMB IT,... Factory fires BOMB IT,... Car fires BOMB IT and my personal favourite, Cats up trees ....oh yeah the complete salvo,....... happiness truly is wheels up and a wet pussy! :-D
Just Another Filtered Fireman

ltdan

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Re: New CFS pumpers
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2009, 11:54:53 AM »
 :lol:

Offline JC

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Re: New CFS pumpers
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2009, 08:46:58 PM »
Lets skip all the narrow, over vegitated driveways, lets skip all the questionable appliance builds, lets skip the long response times on windy hills roads, the answer is simple to all these conundrums A TRUE ONE SIZE, FITS ALL APPLIANCE.......The Boeing, yes sir house fires BOMB IT,... Factory fires BOMB IT,... Car fires BOMB IT and my personal favourite, Cats up trees ....oh yeah the complete salvo,....... happiness truly is wheels up and a wet pussy! :-D

You are an ideas man JAFF,
but imagine the complaints when the guys cant get on the pilots emergency flying course because there all booked up or theres no funding. I can here the crying now. Then you'll get a certain crowd saying how come Burnside can have a A380 Airbus and we only get a crappy 737-400, its not fair. :-D :-D :-D
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Offline crashndash

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Re: New CFS pumpers
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2009, 09:10:45 PM »
ahhhh gold....sometimes its all so silly isnt it...lmao

Offline BundyBear

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Re: New CFS pumpers
« Reply #45 on: September 20, 2009, 11:38:44 PM »
PIP & ITDAN

I said the idea was viable for some brigades not all.

Yes Pip I was fully aware the Dennis was a a trial appliance but who in their right mind buys an ageing appliance has it retro fitted to meet service and Australian specifications which could have been resolved at the case study level to realise it was not a good idea.

How many brigades would actually use a small appliance like this and just asking?

Offline Alan J

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Re: New CFS pumpers
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2009, 12:43:04 AM »
As far as the Dennis is concerned, I know a bloke who knows a bloke in the UK who
is a fire service mechanic.  Apparently, that particular Dennis was a lemon in the
UK too. It was gotten rid-of for that reason. Other vehicles of its vintage are
still in service.

Or so the story goes. If true, it is hardly a fair test of the appliance type.

Alan J.
Cherry Gdns CFS

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Darren

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Re: New CFS pumpers
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2009, 01:24:56 AM »
I visited the station the Dennis came from and also the worckshops, they couldn't beleive we had it on the run, said we must have spent a fortune on it. When it left them it was full of rust, the rear locker door had collapsed, BUT, it did have a brand new engine in it, as part of the lease agreement is that it has to run when returned.

They said you could have picked any other truck and never had an issue.

Offline Burnover

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Re: New CFS pumpers
« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2009, 09:43:38 AM »
Just some information on the CFA "Light Pumper"
Costs around $200,000
2500 LPM Pump
1100L Water

http://www.hino.com.au/News_LatestRelease.aspx?TabID=6&newsTabID=2&newsID=+HYk6T1D/mUNjcnLbfH/zg==


Offline bittenyakka

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Re: New CFS pumpers
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2009, 09:46:55 AM »
there are more and more pics of this type of truck popping up on ozfire. looks like a good starting point but only has 2ba in the ones i have seen. also all most of the hose is flaked and i don't know how that would be accepted in CFS.

 

anything