Author Topic: RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?  (Read 18799 times)

Offline Edster

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RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?
« on: September 22, 2009, 07:16:03 PM »
Hello all...I am relatively new to the forum people have guessed i am from Norton Summit CFS brigade. I am not here to start any (politcal) issues but wish to ask a few questions rearding getting light rescue into a briagde.
Is it worth having RIV in a briagde i.e. Seaford, Bridgewater etc
How d briagdes like Burnside and stirling manage to have both heavy and light rescue?

How did they get it? was it brigade purchase or funded by the state?

(people may look down upon me for thinking this) but in the other post on "Burnside responding into East torrens it was said that Burnside do cover a fair amount of East Torrens turf but Athelstone and Burnside both are about 15 minutes away from certain parts of Norton Summit and our responding areas i.e. Teringie, Woodforde, Skye (look on SACFS promo site for more info), I had an idea of having light rescue in my briagde. Posotive views much appriciated  :mrgreen:

Offline BundyBear

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Re: RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2009, 07:34:46 PM »
Edster,

I looked on the promotions website and my brigade is also listed as having heavy/light RCR gear and we have just the stock set of gear.

I'm not sure of the corporate view on rapid intervention equipment. I think Bridgewater went and bought their own but I don't know how you would go getting crews on courses from there, if you have to pay for your own or CFS will train your crews?

I suggest if you see a gap in the area your brigade responses to and you have a lot of RCR incidents in your area. Put together a case study present it to group then region and see how you go.

Also combi-tools are also good for gaining access into structures with heavy security. A couple of jobs we have used our rescue gear to gain access, plus the MFS station near me has it on there appliance and get to work to gain access for Paramedics before the arrival of our appliance or one of their rescue applaince and the idea seems to work.



Offline mattb

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Re: RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2009, 08:41:19 PM »
Seaford received their gear because of the Southern Expressway, the final stage is in CFS area and the response plan is that MFS go to the Beach road exit and CFS go to Old Noarlunga exit. That way whichever direction the traffic is travelling you will still get an appliance to the job. With the Seaford MFS appliance going to be a Rescue vehicle this will negate the need for Seaford to carry the R.I.V gear anymore.

I'm not entirely sold on the idea of brigades carrying it, some of those in Region One that have it are right next door to a rescue brigade who now go to every single MVA anyway. In some of those cases by the time you get your R.I.V. gear setup the Rescue truck will be on scene.

For all the training and cost involved is it worth it?? Considering how much trouble some of the RCR brigades have in getting their own members on courses would it be better to leave those spots available for the RCR brigade guys ?

Do those brigades with the R.I.V. gear do many cut outs ?

Offline bittenyakka

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Re: RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2009, 10:58:47 PM »
I believe Bridgewater are very happy with theirs. 

Offline Firefrog

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Re: RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2009, 07:56:05 PM »
Im my expereince RIV is vital where second rescue is some distance or time away. I know of a group where RIV has saved the day on many occasions. In one situation the Heavy Rescue pump failed and the brigade with RIV gear did the rescue. Although RIV is not in the resource directory it can be utilised under group and local response plans. The other major benefit is when the rescue brigade is low on rescue trained people the RIV brigade can respond to assist.

Works well in the situation I am aware of. As far as I know it was the first or second RIV brigade approved in the state.

Offline Alan (Big Al)

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Re: RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2009, 03:49:44 PM »
Yeah well have also seen instances of MVA's with traps in both cars and only one rescue called and the 2nd rescue wasnt called as local with RIV gear were on their way.

Guess it works okay as long as the proper CFS/SES rescue untits are called and a case of "we've got RIV she'll be right mate" doesnt occur.
Lt. Goolwa CFS

Offline BundyBear

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Re: RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2009, 08:34:16 AM »
Alan and Matt B's comments make for a very good argument as well why have RIV gear so close to rescue brigades? Plus having over confidence in the ability of RIV gear can be a dangerous path to follow, imagine that not calling a 2nd rescue appliance to 2 confirmed entrapments, if it went wrong I'd hate to think of the consequences!

Offline Firefrog

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Re: RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2009, 10:27:01 AM »
RIV is meant to be a backup not a rescue resource. I my experience first and second rescue are responded as they should be as per the directory. RIV is great when the first arriving resource has RIV and can provide fire cover and pop a door for ambos etc...It's also proved it's worth when second rescue is 20+ minutes away. For those who doubt the capabilities of RIV you need to get on a good combi tool and see what it can do. A combi tool with a telescopic ram and there's not too much you can't do. Sure there are limitiations but RIV brigades train hard and are fully RCR trained to the same level rescue brigades are. They know the limitations and have the outcome for the trapped occupants at heart.


RIV has far more benefits than negatives, most of the arguments against RIV come from rescue brigades who think they are the only ones gifted enough to use the gear. A better outcome for the community and brigades is to embrace advances in resource and skills. A rescue brigade does itself proud when it can train and assist an RIV brigade without the tribalism I too often see.


Offline BundyBear

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Re: RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2009, 11:48:02 AM »
Don't get me wrong Mr. Frog I'm all for it if a brigade gets it as long as its a tactical and strategic decision not a brigades got a spare 20K so lets buy it. Which we have seen in the past with all sorts of equipment but let's not go there as it will retract from the subject!


Offline 24pumper

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Re: RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2009, 11:02:08 AM »
Howdy Edster,

I personally believe that "Rapid Intervention" can be quiet a valuable tool in RCR situations and can quiet capably do a large number of rescue incidents (although generally slower than the full kit)- Although the powers that be in SA currently clearly say that a combi tool does not constitute a suitable RCR resource.. another debate there.. 

Is it worth having RIV in a briagde i.e. Seaford, Bridgewater etc
How d briagdes like Burnside and stirling manage to have both heavy and light rescue?

How did they get it? was it brigade purchase or funded by the state?

(people may look down upon me for thinking this) but in the other post on "Burnside responding into East torrens it was said that Burnside do cover a fair amount of East Torrens turf but Athelstone and Burnside both are about 15 minutes away from certain parts of Norton Summit and our responding areas i.e. Teringie, Woodforde, Skye (look on SACFS promo site for more info), I had an idea of having light rescue in my briagde. Posotive views much appriciated  :mrgreen:

From what i understand some of the brigades with RIV had it provided by CFS as a pseudo replacement for the full RCR kit they formally carried in a rationalisation of resources (eg Eden Hills). Some of the brigades you mention are existing RCR brigades and have probably self funded RIV and other are not RCR brigades and self funded RIV. I also presume that there are brigades that have state funded and provided equipment.

As to the second part of your question "is it worth is?" Do the benifits outweigh the cost & risk? There is not only an initial financial outlay of the equipment (and i'de only be guessing $15k) plus the ongoign training. Now if a brigade funds the equipment initially and takes on the ongoing maintenace costs there is also the issue of training. This isnt as much of a problem, for existing RCR brigades as it would pose little or no impact upon the already tight state training resources. However if a non rescue brigade were to become RIV there is not only the initial but ongoing skills maintenance and replacing trained operators who leave, who covers this cost? I know some brigades get a private company to provide the (nationally recognised) training initially, but then rely on CFS beyond that. Now as CFS training budgets are tight and we have all heard and discussed here the stories about lack of specialist training spots available, so are full rcr brigades then missing out due to riv brigades taking rcr course spots???

Now using the specific examples you have given Edster, looking at Google maps  it appears that the 3 suburbs you listed are about equal distances from your brigade and the rescue brigades (in some cases the rescue brigade closer), so your brigade outlaying the cost & training commitment for RIV may not get used  as it would appear that these rescue brigades would be there around the same time if not before. Add to that from a job i recently saw on the pager site that MFS 211 also attend (i presume this is not an isolated incident) and as they have RIV also, do they arrive first?

So overall I believe RIV has a place, as someone already stated provided that it is at strategic locations. However with out the full details I'de think that on the surface the cost and risk probably dont outweigh the benifits as it would appear there are already close rescue brigades, and MFS with RIV and full RCR.

Hope this helps, but probably not the answer you were after.

24p

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Re: RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2009, 11:29:43 AM »
Like 24P states, looking on google maps, you have 3 rescue stations nearby and 2 MFS pumps with RIV nearby that often arrive first. So I think you would find it VERY hard to justify getting RIV where you are.

Can you tell us how many rescues your brigade does in a year, where cutting was involved ?

Offline Edster

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Re: RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2009, 05:21:22 PM »
Like 24P states, looking on google maps, you have 3 rescue stations nearby and 2 MFS pumps with RIV nearby that often arrive first. So I think you would find it VERY hard to justify getting RIV where you are.

Can you tell us how many rescues your brigade does in a year, where cutting was involved ?

Im Glade people cut the story short haha i only had a dream but the reality is it porbably wont happen unless i can pull something up, Darren, for the time ive been in the brigade (2 years 1 as a responding ff) there was 1 rescue done (08/09 stats) which was on private property were the person was trapped for quite a while until Athelstone arrived. Being in an EMA brigade I thought it may help us when (if) are required to do COQ, But oh well.

Offline Edster

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Re: RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2009, 10:55:28 PM »
I have also noticed **Not bagging briagdes with RIV** that they dont actually do that many rescues either (some do some dont). What risks do you determine to get it on...Bridgewater has the Freeway, Seaford with...? etc

Offline Alan (Big Al)

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Re: RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2009, 11:11:23 PM »
Strategic placement, main arterial roads feeding towns, high risk roads such as freeways, Traffic Volume, Known accident black/hotspots etc etc
Lt. Goolwa CFS

Darren

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Re: RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2009, 11:22:59 AM »
I think your dream will stay a dream, and they don't give a rats about COQ, look they sent Hermitage, so clearly they don't care who goes.

Offline BundyBear

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Re: RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2009, 05:27:58 PM »
I think your dream will stay a dream, and they don't give a rats about COQ, look they sent Hermitage, so clearly they don't care who goes.

I thought this topic was about Rapid Intervention not sticking the boot into the Hermitage brigade and plus you really don't need to as they are trying to fall on their own sword as we speak! :evil:

Darren

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Re: RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2009, 06:50:00 PM »
Its called an example, you know EG.......... :wink:

Offline Pixie

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Re: RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2009, 08:30:36 AM »
I have also noticed **Not bagging briagdes with RIV** that they dont actually do that many rescues either (some do some dont). What risks do you determine to get it on...Bridgewater has the Freeway, Seaford with...? etc

Seaford received their gear because of the Southern Expressway, the final stage is in CFS area and the response plan is that MFS go to the Beach road exit and CFS go to Old Noarlunga exit. That way whichever direction the traffic is travelling you will still get an appliance to the job. With the Seaford MFS appliance going to be a Rescue vehicle this will negate the need for Seaford to carry the R.I.V gear anymore.

Edster, if you dont want to get shot down, PLEASE READ BEFORE you POST

To add my point of view to this debate,
I love the concept of RIV. As previously said by FireFrog "A combi tool with a telescopic ram and there's not too much you can't do." and I think he is 100% correct there. There are only a few situations I can imagine our Holmatro Combi-tool & Ram to be inappropriate, eg. Third door conversion, Floor Pan Flap, Cross Ramming, COMPLEX Dash Lifts and Rollovers and Heavy vehicles/vehicles with roll cages (due to cutting limitations). But for most RCR jobs where the overall outcome is either a roof flapped (or off) or a door popped, or a full side out,   
I think it is more than capable.

Another benefit of RIV gear is that it is physically smaller and lighter. Meaning it can be used in situations where it is not possible to get an appliance close by. It also can make the equipment much more user friendly if working at heights (ie. door removal with vehicle on its side)

I wont go into my views on the training side of it, as I would be here typing all day.

With the above in mind, often acting as an officer at MVA's, I WOULD NEVER PICK RIV AND CREW OVER FULLY EQUIPPED RCR AND CREW IF GIVEN THE OPTION, Most of the incidents I attend, MFS are the Rescue Brigade and (no offence to anyone in CFS) but I regard their skills, TRAINING and experience much higher than ours when it comes to RCR.
SACFS
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Offline crashndash

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Re: RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2009, 11:18:31 AM »
maybe in your end of the world Pixie... but not everywhere...


Offline BundyBear

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Re: RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2009, 11:39:56 PM »
MFS are the Rescue Brigade and (no offence to anyone in CFS) but I regard their skills, TRAINING and experience much higher than ours when it comes to RCR.

Interesting comments to make I think both services have varying levels of competency from seeing it as an OIC on a rescue appliance that responses to incidents with both services in attendance. Your busy CFS rescue brigades and busy MFS stations with a 9 appliance do a very good job as a whole.

As for the training correct me if I'm wrong don't MFS, CFS, SES train from the same initial course now or in the process of applying it?

As for CFS being behind the 8-ball in training. I responded to an incident where CFS did an A-Pillar lift many years ago now and the S/O from the western suburbs relieving at a station close to CFS area had never seen it done. So we chatted about it on the side of the road after!

CFS was using side stabilisation before MFS when they were still using crow bars. CFS implemented better gloves whilst MFS had riggers. Some CFS brigades are now buying or using STAB-FAST gear now.

Also now some MFS and CFS brigades train together and have taken away positives from each other to take to the next job down the street!

Offline tft

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Re: RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2009, 06:42:05 AM »
Interesting comments, I guess some people can only comment about the patch they live in and see. I am not sure how you could make a decision about all three services without seeing most of them in action (which would be impossible)
I have seen a few country SES units which do a great job. The CFS has a few brigades which train almost weekly. The MFS has a few good shifts which do fantastic job.
On the other side you can find some very average units, brigades and 1 shift which has no idea about the T word (training)

Next we will be taking about which service can but rubbish fires out the best

Darren

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Re: RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2009, 09:17:34 AM »
No offense Pixie, but your comparing 1 MFS rescue, to a couple CFS brigades. I have been to crashes were that same MFS station has used the spreaders to break the glass, no stabilisation, and hadn't heard of cross ramming. So its horses for courses.
I have also worked with some CFS brigades that have done more cutouts than most people could ever dream of, the 1 year I spent with Mt Barker gave me the most ideas and skills in the whole time I have had RCR. They do a lot of work up there (we won't mention CFS treat them like crap).

Oh well, won't be long and you will have another MFS rescue very close by to work with  :-D

Offline jaff

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Re: RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2009, 09:33:53 AM »

Oh well, won't be long and you will have another MFS rescue very close by to work with  :-D



Rumour ?....Fact ?....Fiction ?....Fishin ?
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Darren

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Re: RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2009, 02:48:22 PM »
You know I only deal in facts, pretty sure they can see the new station from their station  :-)

Offline mattb

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Re: RAPID INTERVENTION...IS IT WORTH IT?
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2009, 06:41:01 PM »
Quote
Rumour ?....Fact ?....Fiction ?....Fishin ?

Nothing new about MFS putting a rescue pump at Seaford, it has been on the cards for at least the last year or so - even though it only became 'official' a couple of months ago. The new rescue boundaries will be interesting, might fill a few gaps out to the east where there is a bit of hole in coverage at the moment.

We stopped in at the station yesterday on the way back from a job, looks good. I would say 4 to 6 weeks an it will be occupied.

 

anything