Closed or Open Circuit Breathing Apparatus(CCBA/SCBA)

[thrill seeker]

Hi All

I am a newbie to this forum and would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone for posting. There is lots of valuable information here.

I have a few questions.
1. Would firefighters uses closed circuit breathing apparatus?
2. What is the biggest challenge with the current breathing equipment?
3. Would communication devices fitted be useful?
4. Issues with the full face mask?

Any relevant information about breathing apparatus would be appreciated.

If this topic has been discussed i do apologies for a repeat.

Kind Regards
Thrill seeker

[6739264]

I have a few questions.
1. Would firefighters uses closed circuit breathing apparatus?
2. What is the biggest challenge with the current breathing equipment?
3. Would communication devices fitted be useful?
4. Issues with the full face mask?

Howdy,

1. No, unless there were specific risks in the response area that required them (eg: mines / long tunnels). Even then, dual cylinders on an open circuit BA would generally do the job.

2. Biggest challenge with SACFS CABA? Cylinder weight/steel backplate

3. Yes

4. Would be nice to get a facepiece with a larger veiwable area. Although as in No. 2 they are available, jut not purchased by SACFS.

Yay!

[thrill seeker]

A few thoughts on
Open circuit 21% o2 of which +/-80% is wasted(Volume).Limited to 60 minutes
Closed circuit 100% o2 100% reusable.4hr rating

Two scenario's

1.Fireman A enters an unknown environment with open circuit,heart rate has increased,breahing rate has increased,Co2 increased.Increase CO2 due to breathing 21% o2, his ability to perform is negatively effected due to co2 build up and higher work rate.

2. Fireman B enter an unkown enviroment wih closed circuit,heart rate has increased,breathing rate has increased,co2 increase. He is breathing 100
% the co2 build up would not be as great as the unit has scrubber/Sodalime to extract the co2.His ability to perform would mirror his training.

Why breath close circuit?

1. Easier Breathing- High volume less resistance
2. Faster deployment -Scrubber and cooling system.
3.Greater safety and comfort -Light weight

my view is that open circuit should not be allowed. it old technology

I think scott facemask is comming out with comms

my 2cents..... thanks for the reply

Regards
Thrillseeker

[crashndash]

care to put up your company details and a price too? 

[Pipster]

Wouldn't most CFS people have keeled over & died of heat stress from wearing PBI gold for 4 hours, if they spent that long in a closed circuit BA set... 

Pip

[Sam]

Closed circuit BA's have there uses and they are good at them! But they are not ideal for quick entry limited duration jobs.

Look at the initial $$$ to buy them, then maintain them, testing and recommissioning after use!

Use them a few times and you will be turned off them quick smart 

Just a few comments on the easier breathing... even with the sets that have inbuilt ice canister after a few hours of work the air is really hot to breath!

Faster deployment hmmm i would disagree, 3 checks with OCBA, to be confident with a CCBA over 10 checks would be good!

How does Open circuit BA increase CO2 buildup. Exhaled air is spent to atmosphere, so you keep breathing a normal atmosphere of air with each inhaled breath of air.

If you would like me to provide more detail re OC /CC BA let me know!

Sam

[thrill seeker]

The company labzone has acquire the rights to distribute the closed cicuit rebreather in africa. For more information on the unit go to www.biopak240r.com

We supply good quality products to the african market. My engaging is to understand the challenges that you face and try help people that put their lives at risk on a daily bases.

I see this as a start to an interesting journey. I am a scuba instructor and use a rebreather. I see the advantages for diving.....I am not comparing diving to fire fighting but merely looking at the benefits rebreather have to offer.

The cost would be in the region of +/- R100 000. I am still working on the final costings.

Please feel free to add any further information of cc/oc breathing apparatus an or stuff that would make firefighters lives easier.

Thank you for all the responses.

[bajdas]

.....the rights to distribute the closed cicuit rebreather in africa. ......
The cost would be in the region of +/- R100 000......

If you have the rights in Africa, then I assume you do not in Australia ?

I know the internet is world-wide, but I believe the majority of people on this forum are in Australia.

The forum title is for South Australia not South Africa. What is the relevance of advertising African currency prices ?

[Alan (Big Al)]

Probably because he didnt check whether SA stood for South Africa or South Oz first

[thrill seeker]

Hi
The objective of the post was to assist me understand the challenges you face. The advertising was a response to a question asked by one of the forum members. Just to let u know there is an Australian office which may assist with the biopak.

I am still looking for further information about oc/cc. Any inputs would be valuable.

If it offends the members that I am south African, I can leave this forum. I thought that a forum was about information/experiencing sharing,irrespective of location.

Kind Regards

[bajdas]

...
If it offends the members that I am south African, I can leave this forum. I thought that a forum was about information/experiencing sharing,irrespective of location.
...

It was never my intent to query your origin or nationality. It does not worry myself and I personally think it is better if we can learn from other countries.

I apologise if that was the way my posting was taken.

[thrill seeker]

Thrill seeker hugs Bajdas...no hard feels...

[2468]

Hi all,

We use the Biopak for training fire teams in the mines, they are the standard against what others are assesed against. Yes they cost alot more, but when you need to walk into a large underground mine to find a few miners you need as much duration as possible.

The idea of double dutching with a double 9L OC system is just silly, most people would struggle to walk 100m in double dutch system, whereas the CC systems are alot lighter.

Actually we have walked around for over four hours at work doing heavy activites such as lifting heavy rolls of old canvas hose with brass couplings, operated pumps and climbing ladders... and the coolig system in the CC systems keeps the air cool. If yours didn't you need to have it serviced properly.

The idea of having to spend half your life checking the CC compared to the OC is just silly. All you need to make sure is that the service sticker saying that it is good to go is on the system and also the filters have been replaced and its good to go!

CC is used throughout the Hunter Valley very successfully in the mines and the fire service also has  a fair few sets for large building searches

[BundyBear]

I can tell you right now CFS will not buy CCBA due to the cost. Fire fighters at brigades have been complaining about FRP cylinders and the age of the current SCBA now for ages.

It's like banging your head against the wall carbon fibre cylinders have been at a comparable cost to FRP for ages and still brigades have FRP cylinders.

I personally don't believe we require CCBA as SCBA works fine for 99% of applications CFS use it for.

Maybe CCBA might be viable for the state HAZMAT appliance and a few sets for the brigade or brigades that respond in the area of the Heysen tunnel. As the Melbourne Fire Brigade sourced CCBA after the fire in there road tunnel.

At the end of the day you have to look at cost (initial purchase and maintenance), major type of use and training.

I feel SCBA is fine for CFS but we just require new sets and lighter cylinders!

[2468]

It's kind of funny, that in the private industry, such as industry training they only use carbon fibre in most of the sites that we work in. OHS, Manual Handling, if someone is in a tank, pit, contaminated zone for more than a few minutes it can add up. Then you had long heavy hoses, heavy and hot tunics and pants sets...

Maybe with the ageing population (no offence to the older members) that the SACFS started to look at a lighter SCBA set. Lighter backplate, lighter cylinders. In Europe and now the USA they are moving to exclusive carbon fibre everything. Yes you may bump and crack the carbon fibre, but to do so takes a lot of force and energy and to be frank the cost benefit of having a lighter BA set vs. replacement would be favourable.

[JC]

Being in a position to be able to use both CCBA & SCBA regularly, a CCBA will never be suitable for your standard fire service. Reasons - cost of individual units, unit testing time's, replacement component price and practicality of storage. Also after 2 hours in a CCBA the o2 you are breathing becomes that hot it becomes very unpleasant.

ps BG4 all the way

[BundyBear]

BG4 nice for underground work

PSS 7000's and carbon fibre cylinders for CFS please!

[mike3715]

I would like to respond to this topic - whether a fire service should or should not use CCBA should be considered on certain criteria
1/. Infrastructure based risk - ( large industrial complexes, shopping centres etc )

2/. Finacial position of the fire service to purchase , maintain and train

Most fire services are not in the postion to fund ,train and maintain CCBA as they are expensive and based on the above issues hard to justify.

The one issue that  been little discussed is usage time

CCBA will provide up to 4 hours use as opposed to SCBA realistically -  17 minutes
( at 65 l/m using 200 bar x 9 litre cylinder )- less 10 min warning whistle time
even twin cylinders only provide optimally 35 mins