Author Topic: Again response protocol not followed!!!!  (Read 32203 times)

Offline 6739264

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Re: Again response protocol not followed!!!!
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2010, 07:17:29 PM »
I typed a large 'filtered off' reply to the lot of you, esp paid staff that we support.....but thought you fellow volunteers are NOT WORTH IT......

Get all the facts (which you cant because you were NOT there) before making others angry.

And you WERE there?

Why do you get so angry at people merely pointing out the the SES have a shocking record of service delivery to the public?

Onto another burning question that I still find unanswered:

I'm aware that the SES can/do default for RCR work, but why isn't there an adhered to default policy for Storm/Tempest jobs?

Shouldn't anything that requires a P1 response also require a timed default period? Shouldn't units not observing this and allowing jobs to stack up have actions taken against them?

If the response time doesn't matter (eg: by turning out after the current job is finished) then why does it still require a P1 response? I know this is not always the case, but it seems to be more often than not.

Why are we happy to allow a sloppy sub standard response to some of the most damaging natural events that occur?
To think they employed me as a drooling retard...

Darren

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Re: Again response protocol not followed!!!!
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2010, 08:45:21 PM »
The thing is Andrew, we aren't having a go at you, we are frustrated with the system that still hasn't learnt time after time with all the massive storms days of late. There is no plan, we just seem to send jobs through and hope for the best.

I think the SES in this state need to invest in new systems to deal with days like we have had of late.

For example, Up until 2007 my brigade averaged 5 tree calls per year. We only had 1 chainsaw. In the last 2 years we did 98 tree's down in our area, all due to the new response protocol, which worked as it freed SES up for other calls. It just seems that on the really bad days, that response protocol goes out the window which compounds things because the poor SES unit is getting smashed with all the calls and they get hours behind in taskings whilst most fire stations are sitting there unused.

I for one actually feel like we are letting the public down and letting our fellow SES vols down by sitting at home whilst they get hammered. Most metro CFS stations have 2 trucks so could still provide fire cover whilst sending trucks off to assist SES in keeping up with jobs and maybe freeing up senior SES vols to reccy jobs and weed out some of the crap.

I like chooks system, wonder why it hasn't been adopted here yet.

SES HQ needs to look hard at these large storm days and work out a better system. The way things are currently run only burns out the SES vols and you issues where units go offline after a certain time.

I don't know what you need to do, but something needs to happen, maybe a round table with all 3 agencies. It can't keep going how it is. Its not fair on you guys!

Offline chook

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Re: Again response protocol not followed!!!!
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2010, 09:12:31 PM »
Andrew i apologise if I offended you. As you know I'm the last person to have a go at volunteers (which I wasn't).However I'm also aware (from our intelligence) that that was the first of 3 possible events for September. I'm also open to different ideas & have worked under centralised control (SA) & local control (NSW) & I have a fair idea which is more efficient Finally have a look over the border - ask yourself this Could your system handle this? Remember their operations will continue for some time. And we are possibly as well Again sorry mate
Ken
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Offline Mike

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Re: Again response protocol not followed!!!!
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2010, 08:42:42 AM »
Do SCC and Adelaide Fire have the ability to communicate freely when both are operational?
How many areas opened an LEOC?

Darren

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Re: Again response protocol not followed!!!!
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2010, 08:58:36 AM »
Not freely, in so much as they are 2 floors below and its often hard to get through on the phone. One would think one of the dispatchers would take the priority 1 jobs up to fire service or ring them through when they happen. Or stranger still, maybe have a runner ? Anyway, need to have some proper debriefs !

Offline bajdas

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Re: Again response protocol not followed!!!!
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2010, 10:50:55 AM »
Not freely, in so much as they are 2 floors below and its often hard to get through on the phone. One would think one of the dispatchers would take the priority 1 jobs up to fire service or ring them through when they happen. Or stranger still, maybe have a runner ? Anyway, need to have some proper debriefs !

Darren, get your facts right please.

Any life threat calls received by SES SCC, the caller is requested to call 000. We do not take the call.

A MFS Ops letter gives a fax number for tasks to be transferred to Adel Fire for dispatch. I believe this is on the MFS ComCen Supervisors desk.

This was used for 100's of taskings on Saturday for tree downs.

SAPOL ComCen also fax their call receipt data to SES SCC for SES dispatch.
Andrew Macmichael
lives at Pt Noarlunga South.

My personal opinion only.

Offline bajdas

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Re: Again response protocol not followed!!!!
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2010, 10:52:14 AM »
Andrew i apologise if I offended you. As you know I'm the last person to have a go at volunteers (which I wasn't).However I'm also aware (from our intelligence) that that was the first of 3 possible events for September. I'm also open to different ideas & have worked under centralised control (SA) & local control (NSW) & I have a fair idea which is more efficient Finally have a look over the border - ask yourself this Could your system handle this? Remember their operations will continue for some time. And we are possibly as well Again sorry mate

That is why it is changing in a major way in the next two months.
Andrew Macmichael
lives at Pt Noarlunga South.

My personal opinion only.

Offline bajdas

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Re: Again response protocol not followed!!!!
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2010, 10:57:14 AM »
.....If the response time doesn't matter (eg: by turning out after the current job is finished) then why does it still require a P1 response? ...

Your definition of a P1 response is a life threat....SES SCC do not handle calls for this. The caller is told to call 000.

The taskings going from SES SCC are storm & tempest. For example, I believe tree downs on roads were handled via MFS ComCen on Saturday.
Andrew Macmichael
lives at Pt Noarlunga South.

My personal opinion only.

Offline Darius

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Re: Again response protocol not followed!!!!
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2010, 10:59:53 AM »
Any life threat calls received by SES SCC, the caller is requested to call 000. We do not take the call.

ha good one.  But of more interest to me is all the problems with Adelaide Fire over the weekend.  Once again we had phone calls to them ringing out, big delays answering the radio, refusal to respond brigades, hanging up on 000 callers and brigades / group officers etc.  I know they're busy but why is AF management continually unable to staff the comcen appropriately?  after all it's not like everyone didn't have enough warning.  Once again if it wasn't for groups and brigades managing everything themselves, and papering over the cracks, it would have been far worse.  Can't wait til summer when it gets serious.

Offline bajdas

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Re: Again response protocol not followed!!!!
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2010, 11:00:03 AM »
saw Mr Arnold today with a set of chaps on.....one would have thought there was better employment for someone of his standing in an Ops room somewhere

So a paid officer cannot volunteer when he is not at work....then said volunteer is not allowed to operate a tool to do a tasking....how many CFS paid staff volunteer with a brigade and hold a hose or put on a BA set ?????
Andrew Macmichael
lives at Pt Noarlunga South.

My personal opinion only.

Offline bajdas

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Re: Again response protocol not followed!!!!
« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2010, 11:06:07 AM »
...I think the SES in this state need to invest in new systems to deal with days like we have had of late....

Darren, I makes me worried ...< WITHDRAWN posting >
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 12:43:36 PM by bajdas »
Andrew Macmichael
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Offline Darius

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Re: Again response protocol not followed!!!!
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2010, 11:28:22 AM »
...I think the SES in this state need to invest in new systems to deal with days like we have had of late....

Darren, I makes me worried if you do not know of the changes happening at MFS ComCen (I thought that was your workplace). Two things holding the changeover and everything else is installed, tested & waiting to go. Affected SES volunteers were officially told three months ago.

is it secret?  why don't you just say what you've been told?
(I can only assume you are referring to the SES SCC ceasing to do CRD? and long past time too in my opinion, the problem is Adelaide Fire can't handle what they do now let alone giving them more to do)

Offline Robert-Robert34

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Re: Again response protocol not followed!!!!
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2010, 11:42:29 AM »
Quote
Can't wait til summer when it gets serious.

At this rate there may not be a summer  :roll: unless this pesky rainfall buggers off
Kalangadoo Brigade

Offline Alex

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Re: Again response protocol not followed!!!!
« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2010, 12:08:05 PM »
Hahaha todays even better...  :roll:

Offline Alex

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Re: Again response protocol not followed!!!!
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2010, 12:12:26 PM »
Your definition of a P1 response is a life threat....SES SCC do not handle calls for this. The caller is told to call 000.

The taskings going from SES SCC are storm & tempest. For example, I believe tree downs on roads were handled via MFS ComCen on Saturday.

Mate, i believe Darren would have been referring mostly to 'storm & tempest' events that per the "SES PAGER INFORMATION REQUIREMENTS" sheet, reccomends a P1 response. When we at Adelaide Fire dispatch these we are told to respond local fire and ses, and yet ses scc bang out 'P1' responses constantly as SES only. I guess this is a point many want cleared up. Apart from the fact your system on level 3 cannot dispatch fire, why do SES suddenly go to these alone?

Offline Alex

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Re: Again response protocol not followed!!!!
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2010, 12:14:51 PM »
ha good one.  But of more interest to me is all the problems with Adelaide Fire over the weekend.  Once again we had phone calls to them ringing out, big delays answering the radio, refusal to respond brigades, hanging up on 000 callers and brigades / group officers etc.  I know they're busy but why is AF management continually unable to staff the comcen appropriately?  after all it's not like everyone didn't have enough warning.  Once again if it wasn't for groups and brigades managing everything themselves, and papering over the cracks, it would have been far worse.  Can't wait til summer when it gets serious.

Unfortunately there is a schedule that gets us more staff dependant on FDIs during the FDS. No such thing exists for other events.

Offline bajdas

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Re: Again response protocol not followed!!!!
« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2010, 12:42:36 PM »
Your definition of a P1 response is a life threat....SES SCC do not handle calls for this. The caller is told to call 000.

The taskings going from SES SCC are storm & tempest. For example, I believe tree downs on roads were handled via MFS ComCen on Saturday.

Mate, i believe Darren would have been referring mostly to 'storm & tempest' events that per the "SES PAGER INFORMATION REQUIREMENTS" sheet, reccomends a P1 response. When we at Adelaide Fire dispatch these we are told to respond local fire and ses, and yet ses scc bang out 'P1' responses constantly as SES only. I guess this is a point many want cleared up. Apart from the fact your system on level 3 cannot dispatch fire, why do SES suddenly go to these alone?

Sorry, my information is wrong then...
Andrew Macmichael
lives at Pt Noarlunga South.

My personal opinion only.

Offline Zippy

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Re: Again response protocol not followed!!!!
« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2010, 02:27:51 PM »
Any life threat calls received by SES SCC, the caller is requested to call 000. We do not take the call.

ha good one.  But of more interest to me is all the problems with Adelaide Fire over the weekend.  Once again we had phone calls to them ringing out, big delays answering the radio, refusal to respond brigades, hanging up on 000 callers and brigades / group officers etc.  I know they're busy but why is AF management continually unable to staff the comcen appropriately?  after all it's not like everyone didn't have enough warning.  Once again if it wasn't for groups and brigades managing everything themselves, and papering over the cracks, it would have been far worse.  Can't wait til summer when it gets serious.


Well, Adelaide Fire was in multiple incident procedure over the weekend.....

That means, 000 calls for establishing firecalls and GRN for short mobilisation messages & urgent precise upgrade messages only...i would think.

There were so many manual turnout messages by brigades that should have happened via 000.

I recall hearing emerg tones and a general broadcast on all CFS regional channels occuring twice, general gist being: "wait out wait out, pretty much only talk to us if urgent"....

CFS has to deal with its radio protocol as well, massively.   A lot more over the air discipline will go a long way.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 02:33:06 PM by Zippy »

Offline jaff

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Re: Again response protocol not followed!!!!
« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2010, 03:00:17 PM »
The only constant is change and that will happen!
Just Another Filtered Fireman

Offline Alan (Big Al)

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Re: Again response protocol not followed!!!!
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2010, 03:16:29 PM »
I heard Auburn and Williamstown come up on GRN 124 responding to or asking for pages to be sent out! Why was this? was region 2 running through region 1 talkgroup? just curious is all  :-)
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Re: Again response protocol not followed!!!!
« Reply #45 on: September 06, 2010, 04:29:50 PM »
Any life threat calls received by SES SCC, the caller is requested to call 000. We do not take the call.

ha good one.  But of more interest to me is all the problems with Adelaide Fire over the weekend.  Once again we had phone calls to them ringing out, big delays answering the radio, refusal to respond brigades, hanging up on 000 callers and brigades / group officers etc.  I know they're busy but why is AF management continually unable to staff the comcen appropriately?  after all it's not like everyone didn't have enough warning.  Once again if it wasn't for groups and brigades managing everything themselves, and papering over the cracks, it would have been far worse.  Can't wait til summer when it gets serious.


Well, Adelaide Fire was in multiple incident procedure over the weekend.....

That means, 000 calls for establishing firecalls and GRN for short mobilisation messages & urgent precise upgrade messages only...i would think.

There were so many manual turnout messages by brigades that should have happened via 000.

I recall hearing emerg tones and a general broadcast on all CFS regional channels occuring twice, general gist being: "wait out wait out, pretty much only talk to us if urgent"....

CFS has to deal with its radio protocol as well, massively.   A lot more over the air discipline will go a long way.


I saw the pager messages, heard the radio messages, re we are in multiple incident procedures....but as yet, haven't found a reference in SOP's etc, as to what that is meant to be.

Having said that, it was pretty clear that Adelaide fire was swamped, and hence I didn't bother trying to get jobs put through to Adelaide fire, for dispatch to my brigade......I just paged it myself...

Not ideal, but since the jobs were just trees on roads, a few minutes of delay getting a page out via linkq didn't really matter.

However, it shows how quickly the CRD system was swamped, and the apparent inability of the system to expand to deal with that.  (And before anyone makes the commnet - I am NOT having a go at any of the staff...they were obviously getting flogged, but listening to them on the radio, they were doing well under pressure)

Brigade & Group control centres were effectively doing their own thing - with many of the calls attended by brigades coming direct from members, who had been contacted by neighbours / other residents who knew they were in the CFS, and contacted them direct for assistance.

Pip
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Re: Again response protocol not followed!!!!
« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2010, 04:35:33 PM »
saw Mr Arnold today with a set of chaps on.....one would have thought there was better employment for someone of his standing in an Ops room somewhere

He is also a volunteer who doesnt mind helping is SES unit.

Offline Darius

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Re: Again response protocol not followed!!!!
« Reply #47 on: September 06, 2010, 05:28:14 PM »
I heard Auburn and Williamstown come up on GRN 124 responding to or asking for pages to be sent out! Why was this? was region 2 running through region 1 talkgroup? just curious is all  :-)

R1 Ops 124 and R2 Ops 093 were patched together by Adelaide Fire. SAAS do it all the time but in reverse, ie. when it's quiet they patch their north and south talkgroups together so one operator can easily do both, when things get busy they unpatch and put one operator on each talkgroup.

Offline Zippy

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Re: Again response protocol not followed!!!!
« Reply #48 on: September 06, 2010, 06:33:54 PM »
Any life threat calls received by SES SCC, the caller is requested to call 000. We do not take the call.

ha good one.  But of more interest to me is all the problems with Adelaide Fire over the weekend.  Once again we had phone calls to them ringing out, big delays answering the radio, refusal to respond brigades, hanging up on 000 callers and brigades / group officers etc.  I know they're busy but why is AF management continually unable to staff the comcen appropriately?  after all it's not like everyone didn't have enough warning.  Once again if it wasn't for groups and brigades managing everything themselves, and papering over the cracks, it would have been far worse.  Can't wait til summer when it gets serious.


Well, Adelaide Fire was in multiple incident procedure over the weekend.....

That means, 000 calls for establishing firecalls and GRN for short mobilisation messages & urgent precise upgrade messages only...i would think.

There were so many manual turnout messages by brigades that should have happened via 000.

I recall hearing emerg tones and a general broadcast on all CFS regional channels occuring twice, general gist being: "wait out wait out, pretty much only talk to us if urgent"....

CFS has to deal with its radio protocol as well, massively.   A lot more over the air discipline will go a long way.


I saw the pager messages, heard the radio messages, re we are in multiple incident procedures....but as yet, haven't found a reference in SOP's etc, as to what that is meant to be.

Having said that, it was pretty clear that Adelaide fire was swamped, and hence I didn't bother trying to get jobs put through to Adelaide fire, for dispatch to my brigade......I just paged it myself...

Not ideal, but since the jobs were just trees on roads, a few minutes of delay getting a page out via linkq didn't really matter.

However, it shows how quickly the CRD system was swamped, and the apparent inability of the system to expand to deal with that.  (And before anyone makes the commnet - I am NOT having a go at any of the staff...they were obviously getting flogged, but listening to them on the radio, they were doing well under pressure)

Brigade & Group control centres were effectively doing their own thing - with many of the calls attended by brigades coming direct from members, who had been contacted by neighbours / other residents who knew they were in the CFS, and contacted them direct for assistance.

Pip



Guess that comes to CFS HQ asking MFS for an explaination and then diseminating the procedure down to brigade level.

MFS Area radio protocol reduces to K Codes, Upgrades & Stop only.  No sitreps nor full stop messages, from what i listened to yesterday.

And yeah, you might here adelaide fire talking to thin air on occasions (when talking onto all channels simultaneously)...
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 06:37:39 PM by Zippy »

Darren

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Re: Again response protocol not followed!!!!
« Reply #49 on: September 06, 2010, 06:43:05 PM »
Patching together helps people realise we talk to more than one region. It can be painful as you often miss calls as people are all talking at once, but have no idea others are talking.

 

anything