Technical Discussion > ALL Rescue
Interesting techniques being taught
Darren:
A bigger cut than Holmatro.....I find that hard to believe. Ask the Mt Barker crew how they went using Lukas from another truck.
The cutters CFS provide from Lukas have the same cutting power as RIV. I am not saying Lukas can't do the job, but they need to spec the better cutter. Like it or not more and more of the basic cars are fitted with this higher tensile steel.
AGAIN what I said is not to replace the whole lot overnight, but surely if your buying new kits you would spec them to do this job. I know there are cutters that do this.
Has anyone seen the kit that comes on that rescue van..... :lol:
Alan (Big Al):
The new lukas gear which is meant to be in competition with the core stuff from holmatro is not all that great from what i heard from a rarto! it wont cut through a b pillar on a ve commodore which the holmatro will!
Oh and on a side not it was nice to use our lukas gear today and not have it fail woo hoo
6739264:
--- Quote from: Bill Corcoran on September 12, 2010, 07:30:51 PM ---Darren, you are sort of correct I did the RCR upskill today and another way is to do a roofline V shape relief cut near the top of the B pillar then use the RAM worked well and one of our brigade's in this region did it not long ago and worked well.
--- End quote ---
Where do you ram it from/to? Why not just pie cut the top and rip out the base?
--- Quote from: crossy on September 12, 2010, 10:35:16 PM ---hmm i disagree the new lukas equipment i used at STC would kill our old gear and the free flow couplings are much quicker to change tools and not to mention not having to have a pump operator. new dosen't have to mean more power, more efficent is better in my books..
--- End quote ---
"Free flow" couplings? What crazy equipment did you invent? Multistage simultaneous operation pumps and streamlined couplings are the norm now and are certainly not something that is exclusive to Lukas. If anything the Lukas/Hurst Streamline couplings are bulkier than most others on the market.
--- Quote from: Bill Corcoran on September 13, 2010, 07:07:25 AM ---The Lukas gear the STC have is the latest and works well we run lukas 2000 in Naracoorte and have never had a problem with it. As a rescue officer you have to have 2 if not 3 plans and that is what it is all about. Its not a matter of changing the cutter and spreaders you also have to change the pump and the couplings and at the momnet a full new RCR set is around $50,000 +
If you talk to a number of CFS RCR brigades tey all have their own choice of gear Lukas does have a bigger cut over Holmatro. In time I guess when funding is around we wil see the new gear.
--- End quote ---
You most certainly DON'T have to change the pump and couplings. As long as you are using the same pressure across the system there is no issue. New style couplings can be retrofitted for around $150 per set.
As far as Lukas having a bigger cut, sure the highest rated, S511 Cutter can chop out 119t of force, compared to Holmatro 4055's 103.8t, but the 4055's Blade opening and geometry shits all over that of the S511. Also, are there any S511's in service? I believe the standard issue is the Lukas S510. Seeing as though we are actually getting the Holmatro 4055's in service, surely we should be comparing only the tools which the CFS are actually buying?
--- Quote from: Darren on September 13, 2010, 08:01:09 AM ---The cutters CFS provide from Lukas have the same cutting power as RIV. I am not saying Lukas can't do the job, but they need to spec the better cutter. Like it or not more and more of the basic cars are fitted with this higher tensile steel.
AGAIN what I said is not to replace the whole lot overnight, but surely if your buying new kits you would spec them to do this job. I know there are cutters that do this.
--- End quote ---
Ahhh... not quite. The highest rated Holmatro and Lukas Combi-Tools still falls far short of the Lukas S510's 90ton cutting power.
Personally, I don't like the Lukas gear, but yes it does work and it does do the job. I'd take Holmatro any day of the week, but that's not always realistic.
It's good to hear the CFS are starting to teach alternative techniques, but I don't think its going far enough.
How many operators can pull a car apart by hand? Can you destroy the car with just airtools? What about the recip saw? Does anyone teach tunneling from the boot/hatch?
Honestly the pie cut on the top of the B post has been around for years, why is it only just being taught? What about C/D Post pie cuts? Even the basic things like spreading a door from places OTHER than the hinge/lock (god forbid you use the roof rail!)
I don't quite understand the "Cut/Ram" B post maneuver? Where are you ramming from? The rear gusset? Front gusset? Middle of the A Post? Middle of the C Post? Opposite side? There are some great alternatives that leave the B Post intact, although I'm not a fan of this. Surely a B Post rip would achieve a positive outcome? Or even cutting the B Post out with the Recip saw (Oh wait, CFS don't issue Recip blades that can do that...)
There are a variety of alternatives that can be used that do not require the immediate purchase of brand new cutters. I've had a WRX with a Boron B post happily cut with a Holmatro GP cutters. Just a matter of isolating the Boron strips in the B Post and cutting them individually. It can be done and it doesn't need the latest and greatest gear...
Are the CFS teaching roof ramming? Cutting the roof out along the rails with the Recip or Air Chisel? There are many simple techniques that are going untaught...
Two days for an "RCR" Course, and then get a Fischer Price My First Rescue Truck Stowage kit...
Road Crash Rescue in CFS - Its a joke, plain and simple.
rescue5271:
Hey Numbers where did you get that price of $150 per coupling?? try $450 per coupling if it was that cheap we and other brigades would have done it by now....Spoke to a RARTO lst night and he said homatro will still not cut the B pillar in new tech cars....That is why they are going down the path of showing RAMMING and CROSS RAMMING....
Darren:
Are you sure, I have personally cut a new generation B pillar with the new Holmatro Core,whilst it was tough it certainly cut through it. It all depends on what kit you buy, if its the bottom end kit then its not going to happen.
See links listed
http://www.holmatro.com/rescue/en/Document/Download?baseModuleId=1360&documentId=5551
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw2mdjz7Ptc
In my attempt to be unbiased I was unable to find anything of substance on google or youtube on Lukas.
It's good to see CFS teaching stuff to help you deal with the limitations of the equipment you have, but lets hope they realise that saving a few grand isn't always best in the long term.
I guess its a bit like Ford and Holden, I like Holmatro, found it better to use, simple as that.
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