Author Topic: Interesting techniques being taught  (Read 17985 times)

Darren

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Interesting techniques being taught
« on: September 12, 2010, 05:18:47 PM »
I have been told by people that the RCR upskills are being taught than rather than cut the B pillar in new cars to ram it, whilst this is interesting, and has a low success rate, is the CFS looking to upgrade the cutters or will they stick with the sub standard kit and just teach this?

rescue5271

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Re: Interesting techniques being taught
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2010, 07:30:51 PM »
Darren, you are sort of correct I did the RCR upskill today and another way is to do a roofline V shape relief cut near the top of the B pillar then use the RAM worked well and one of our brigade's in this region did  it not long ago and worked well. Mate CFS would need to get lots of MONEY to up date all 70+ RCR brigades with new gear and this is not going to happen over night. They still have brigades who's gear is pre 2000 and should be updated first.... We have along way to go and I am sure we will get there....

Darren

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Re: Interesting techniques being taught
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2010, 09:11:39 PM »
I was just wondering why when they get new gear they don't go for the gear that can perform the task. Of course I understand it won't happen over night, but you have to start somewhere. The latest Lukas gear doesn't seem to perform much better than a basic set of RIV.

Offline crossy

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Re: Interesting techniques being taught
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2010, 10:35:16 PM »
hmm i disagree the new lukas equipment i used at STC would kill our old gear and the free flow couplings are much quicker to change tools and not to mention not having to have a pump operator. new dosen't have to mean more power, more efficent is better in my books..
cant prove it?? then i didnt do it......

rescue5271

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Re: Interesting techniques being taught
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2010, 07:07:25 AM »
The Lukas gear the STC have is the latest and works well we run lukas 2000 in Naracoorte and have never had a problem with it. As a rescue officer you have to have 2 if not 3 plans and that is what it is all about. Its not a matter of changing the cutter and spreaders you also have to change the pump and the couplings and at the momnet a full new RCR set is around $50,000 +

If you talk to a number of CFS RCR brigades tey all have their own choice of gear Lukas does have a bigger cut over Holmatro. In time I guess when funding is around we wil see the new gear.

Darren

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Re: Interesting techniques being taught
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2010, 08:01:09 AM »
A bigger cut than Holmatro.....I find that hard to believe. Ask the Mt Barker crew how they went using Lukas from another truck.

The cutters CFS provide from Lukas have the same cutting power as RIV. I am not saying Lukas can't do the job, but they need to spec the better cutter. Like it or not more and more of the basic cars are fitted with this higher tensile steel.

AGAIN what I said is not to replace the whole lot overnight, but surely if your buying new kits you would spec them to do this job. I know there are cutters that do this.

Has anyone seen the kit that comes on that rescue van..... :lol:

Offline Alan (Big Al)

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Re: Interesting techniques being taught
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2010, 04:53:37 PM »
The new lukas gear which is meant to be in competition with the core stuff from holmatro is not all that great from what i heard from a rarto! it wont cut through a b pillar on a ve commodore which the holmatro will!

Oh and on a side not it was nice to use our lukas gear today and not have it fail woo hoo
Lt. Goolwa CFS

Offline 6739264

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Re: Interesting techniques being taught
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2010, 12:54:15 AM »
Darren, you are sort of correct I did the RCR upskill today and another way is to do a roofline V shape relief cut near the top of the B pillar then use the RAM worked well and one of our brigade's in this region did  it not long ago and worked well.

Where do you ram it from/to? Why not just pie cut the top and rip out the base?

hmm i disagree the new lukas equipment i used at STC would kill our old gear and the free flow couplings are much quicker to change tools and not to mention not having to have a pump operator. new dosen't have to mean more power, more efficent is better in my books..

"Free flow" couplings? What crazy equipment did you invent? Multistage simultaneous operation pumps and streamlined couplings are the norm now and are certainly not something that is exclusive to Lukas. If anything the Lukas/Hurst Streamline couplings are bulkier than most others on the market.

The Lukas gear the STC have is the latest and works well we run lukas 2000 in Naracoorte and have never had a problem with it. As a rescue officer you have to have 2 if not 3 plans and that is what it is all about. Its not a matter of changing the cutter and spreaders you also have to change the pump and the couplings and at the momnet a full new RCR set is around $50,000 +

If you talk to a number of CFS RCR brigades tey all have their own choice of gear Lukas does have a bigger cut over Holmatro. In time I guess when funding is around we wil see the new gear.

You most certainly DON'T have to change the pump and couplings. As long as you are using the same pressure across the system there is no issue. New style couplings can be retrofitted for around $150 per set.

As far as Lukas having a bigger cut, sure the highest rated, S511 Cutter can chop out 119t of force, compared to Holmatro 4055's 103.8t, but the 4055's Blade opening and geometry shits all over that of the S511. Also, are there any S511's in service? I believe the standard issue is the Lukas S510. Seeing as though we are actually getting the Holmatro 4055's in service, surely we should be comparing only the tools which the CFS are actually buying?

The cutters CFS provide from Lukas have the same cutting power as RIV. I am not saying Lukas can't do the job, but they need to spec the better cutter. Like it or not more and more of the basic cars are fitted with this higher tensile steel.

AGAIN what I said is not to replace the whole lot overnight, but surely if your buying new kits you would spec them to do this job. I know there are cutters that do this.

Ahhh... not quite. The highest rated Holmatro and Lukas Combi-Tools still falls far short of the Lukas S510's 90ton cutting power.

Personally, I don't like the Lukas gear, but yes it does work and it does do the job. I'd take Holmatro any day of the week, but that's not always realistic.

It's good to hear the CFS are starting to teach alternative techniques, but I don't think its going far enough.

How many operators can pull a car apart by hand? Can you destroy the car with just airtools? What about the recip saw? Does anyone teach tunneling from the boot/hatch?

Honestly the pie cut on the top of the B post has been around for years, why is it only just being taught? What about C/D Post pie cuts? Even the basic things like spreading a door from places OTHER than the hinge/lock (god forbid you use the roof rail!)

I don't quite understand the "Cut/Ram" B post maneuver? Where are you ramming from? The rear gusset? Front gusset? Middle of the A Post? Middle of the C Post? Opposite side? There are some great alternatives that leave the B Post intact, although I'm not a fan of this. Surely a B Post rip would achieve a positive outcome? Or even cutting the B Post out with the Recip saw (Oh wait, CFS don't issue Recip blades that can do that...)

There are a variety of alternatives that can be used that do not require the immediate purchase of brand new cutters. I've had a WRX with a Boron B post happily cut with a Holmatro GP cutters. Just a matter of isolating the Boron strips in the B Post and cutting them individually. It can be done and it doesn't need the latest and greatest gear...

Are the CFS teaching roof ramming? Cutting the roof out along the rails with the Recip or Air Chisel? There are many simple techniques that are going untaught...

Two days for an "RCR" Course, and then get a Fischer Price My First Rescue Truck Stowage kit...

Road Crash Rescue in CFS - Its a joke, plain and simple.
To think they employed me as a drooling retard...

rescue5271

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Re: Interesting techniques being taught
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2010, 07:20:10 AM »
Hey Numbers where did you get that price of $150 per coupling?? try $450 per coupling if it was that cheap we and other brigades would have done it by now....Spoke to a RARTO lst night and he said homatro will still not cut the B pillar in new tech cars....That is why they are going down the path of showing RAMMING and CROSS RAMMING....

Darren

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Re: Interesting techniques being taught
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2010, 11:55:31 AM »
Are you sure, I have personally cut a new generation B pillar with the new Holmatro Core,whilst it was tough it certainly cut through it. It all depends on what kit you buy, if its the bottom end kit then its not going to happen.

See links listed

http://www.holmatro.com/rescue/en/Document/Download?baseModuleId=1360&documentId=5551

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw2mdjz7Ptc

In my attempt to be unbiased I was unable to find anything of substance on google or youtube on Lukas.

It's good to see CFS teaching stuff to help you deal with the limitations of the equipment you have, but lets hope they realise that saving a few grand isn't always best in the long term.

I guess its a bit like Ford and Holden, I like Holmatro, found it better to use, simple as that.

Offline 6739264

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Re: Interesting techniques being taught
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2010, 04:31:52 PM »
Hey Numbers where did you get that price of $150 per coupling?? try $450 per coupling if it was that cheap we and other brigades would have done it by now....Spoke to a RARTO lst night and he said homatro will still not cut the B pillar in new tech cars....That is why they are going down the path of showing RAMMING and CROSS RAMMING....

Shop around.

I'd suggest that your RARTO buddy doesn't know what he is talking about...

You would be aware though that the CFS are issuing Rams that are NOT capable of cross ramming wouldn't you? The current CFS standard rescue stowage is abysmal - you cannot cross ram, roof ram, floorpan flap or inverted ram with it due to the fact that CFS went with the cheap option, rather than the capable option.

So yes, we currently have techniques being taught on RCR courses that Brigades are unable to perform with the equipment they are being issued...

Go Figure.
To think they employed me as a drooling retard...

rescue5271

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Re: Interesting techniques being taught
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2010, 07:55:05 PM »
Numbers we did shop around and as there is only one firm that is CFS approved to do any work on RCR gear we are unable to use other firms.... However we are all now thinking that next year when that firm comes around that we ask them to give us a quote well before the service to do the change over in couplings....As for Lukas VIA Holmatro each RARTO has their own likes and dislikes of the gear I agree about the RAMS....

Offline 6739264

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Re: Interesting techniques being taught
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2010, 07:38:43 PM »
Numbers we did shop around and as there is only one firm that is CFS approved to do any work on RCR gear we are unable to use other firms.... However we are all now thinking that next year when that firm comes around that we ask them to give us a quote well before the service to do the change over in couplings....As for Lukas VIA Holmatro each RARTO has their own likes and dislikes of the gear I agree about the RAMS....

Only one firm approved to service ALL the different RCR sets that are around? Ok... Never thought I'd see a Lukas dealer working on Holmatro, but sure.

As for personal choice, not only do RARTO's have their personal choices, we all do. There are some things that don't come down to personal choice - Things like the capabilities of different tools. Statements like "Holmatro will still not cut through the B Pillar on New Tech Cars" are blatantly untrue and show more about the lack of skill and capabilities of an operator than they do of the tools.

I continue to be concerned about the skill, abilities and knowledge of some of our RARTO's.
To think they employed me as a drooling retard...

Offline safireservice

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Re: Interesting techniques being taught
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2010, 07:52:40 PM »
I thought the company that did the servicing was PT Hydraulics?
Treat everyone as if they are an idiot, until they prove you otherwise.

Darren

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Re: Interesting techniques being taught
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2010, 08:05:18 PM »
PT Hydraulics service Lukas, Chubb service Holmatro.

rescue5271

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Re: Interesting techniques being taught
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2010, 08:24:49 PM »
PT will and do service both gear......

Offline BundyBear

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Re: Interesting techniques being taught
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2010, 12:22:15 PM »
I have been told by people that the RCR upskills are being taught than rather than cut the B pillar in new cars to ram it, whilst this is interesting, and has a low success rate, is the CFS looking to upgrade the cutters or will they stick with the sub standard kit and just teach this?

Darren, I think your mates were not listening at the upskill ramming from the sill to the cant rail to pull away the B pillar from the roof section of the vehicle is just another technique shown to give Rescue operators/officers more options.Same as the tunneling techniqueto show access the rear of a sedan.

Streamline couplings

Are an extra cost and yes they make connecting tools to hoses easy and can be done whilst under pressure. This can all be acheived by the Holmatro core gear and is way less bulky and cumbersome than the Lukas streamline coupling but for the Lukas gear they are better than connecting two hoses.

As for the Holmatro cutters not cutting through i think this may be a false statement as I've had no issues with cutting through B pillars and the Holmatro cutters have a better geometry design than the Lukas and the dead man handle to open and close tools seems to be nicer to use than the control mechanism on the Lukas gear.

I think most of the RARTO's seem to favour the Lukas gear as most of them are from stations that have either new Lukas gear or older generation Holmatro. I think there is only a couple of CFS brigades and MFS that use the new Holmatro gear with core technology hoses.


Offline Alan (Big Al)

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Re: Interesting techniques being taught
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2010, 03:21:43 PM »
Are there any CFS out there using the CORE Holmatro gear??
Lt. Goolwa CFS

Darren

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Re: Interesting techniques being taught
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2010, 07:56:22 PM »
I know at least TTG is using it, they were trialling the kit, I heard that Crystal Brook also has some, but can't be 100% sure.

Offline 6739264

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Re: Interesting techniques being taught
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2010, 11:13:23 AM »
I have been told by people that the RCR upskills are being taught than rather than cut the B pillar in new cars to ram it, whilst this is interesting, and has a low success rate, is the CFS looking to upgrade the cutters or will they stick with the sub standard kit and just teach this?

Darren, I think your mates were not listening at the upskill ramming from the sill to the cant rail to pull away the B pillar from the roof section of the vehicle is just another technique shown to give Rescue operators/officers more options.Same as the tunneling techniqueto show access the rear of a sedan.

So why then are the CFS again teaching a technique and then issuing equipment that is unable to perform the task?
To think they employed me as a drooling retard...

pumprescue

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Re: Interesting techniques being taught
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2010, 11:19:59 AM »
Because Arthur refuses to buy them proper kit, in fact I heard his latest effort is to remove a ram from the kit, so you get 1 ram now.

rescue5271

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Re: Interesting techniques being taught
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2010, 05:09:48 PM »
Number I rang around today to see who would do the coupling change over and NO ONE will touch it as CFS have a Contract with PT that is what 3 firms in SA have said...One firm said if they where to do it they would no longer be able to do any work for Holmatro .....

Offline bajdas

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Re: Interesting techniques being taught
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2010, 10:38:32 AM »
For my curiosity.... is the RCR kit in SES vehicles (eg Murray Bridge & Mt Gambier) and MFS retained stations able to do what is being discussed ?

Also, is the gear connectable to the CFS gear so equipment can be shared at a major incident (old issue identified between services from Granville Train Crash incident in 1977)
Andrew Macmichael
lives at Pt Noarlunga South.

My personal opinion only.

Offline CFS_Firey

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Re: Interesting techniques being taught
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2010, 11:20:29 AM »
One firm said if they where to do it they would no longer be able to do any work for Holmatro .....

Good to hear Holmatro keep their workers pure!  We wouldn't want any filthy Lukas germs to soil our Holmatro!

rescue5271

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Re: Interesting techniques being taught
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2010, 07:23:14 PM »
For my curiosity.... is the RCR kit in SES vehicles (eg Murray Bridge & Mt Gambier) and MFS retained stations able to do what is being discussed ?

Also, is the gear connectable to the CFS gear so equipment can be shared at a major incident (old issue identified between services from Granville Train Crash incident in 1977)

In this region our gear is not connectable to SES as they have gone ahead with the coupling changes, it is the same if we go into Victoria as they are all running the new coupling system in CFA and SES rescues....

 

anything