Author Topic: When to push the button?  (Read 23169 times)

Offline jaff

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When to push the button?
« on: December 07, 2010, 12:37:29 PM »
Well SES its that rackem an stackem time again by the looks!, my question is at what stage "should you" push the button for additional/ read complimentary agencies assistance?

If you ask the public, Im thinkin the answer would be Yesterday!

Thoughts O learned ones?
Just Another Filtered Fireman

Offline boredmatrix

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Re: When to push the button?
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2010, 01:45:58 PM »
Jaff - seriously?  You're expecting a Government agency to plan for something??


you're a funny funny man......

misterteddy

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Re: When to push the button?
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2010, 02:00:09 PM »
more than that......you're asking an emergency service....to plan when to let some of its role be taken over by another emergency service in an admission that it can't fulfill the role


funny??....hell you should be in the circus

Offline jaff

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Re: When to push the button?
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2010, 02:47:06 PM »
I know its a brave new concept......but it might just have some merit!

Whilst Im outing myself, I also believe in succession planning......and father xmas




















Just Another Filtered Fireman

Offline bajdas

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Re: When to push the button?
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2010, 07:02:10 PM »
Will not be seen from paging website, but I believe various CFS brigades are liasing/responding with the local SES Unit on taskings.

Eventually something will be sorted out, but last I heard was that the original idea is still to be ratified... will wait and see.

If you are not currently responding & you want to be, then talk to your fellow volunteers through your chain of command.
Andrew Macmichael
lives at Pt Noarlunga South.

My personal opinion only.

Offline Alex

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Re: When to push the button?
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2010, 07:38:06 PM »
Bring on SACAD, closest most appropriate.


Andrew, how are the SES SCC task numbers allocated? I used to think they were just sequential, but tonight they seem to be all over the place.

Offline jaff

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Re: When to push the button?
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2010, 08:25:15 PM »
Shakes head...................A lot!
Just Another Filtered Fireman

Offline bajdas

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Re: When to push the button?
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2010, 09:10:45 PM »
Bring on SACAD, closest most appropriate.

Andrew, how are the SES SCC task numbers allocated? I used to think they were just sequential, but tonight they seem to be all over the place.

Paging is done on priority order. SCC have seperate call receipt staff to dispatch staff.

Many tasks will also be sent via fax to some LHQ's.

We understood this was to be changed by now, but it did not happen...so volunteers are waiting.

The volunteers are trying to do the best we can, with what we have been supplied with.
Andrew Macmichael
lives at Pt Noarlunga South.

My personal opinion only.

pumprescue

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Re: When to push the button?
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2010, 11:00:38 PM »
It is interesting how the job stacking happens, units pike Whyalla and Kapunda getting smashed with no backup and people ringing back that haven't been attended to, do they ask for strike teams or even simple things like CFS or MFS help?

Offline Alex

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Re: When to push the button?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2010, 11:23:40 PM »
Bring on SACAD, closest most appropriate.

Andrew, how are the SES SCC task numbers allocated? I used to think they were just sequential, but tonight they seem to be all over the place.

Paging is done on priority order. SCC have seperate call receipt staff to dispatch staff.

Many tasks will also be sent via fax to some LHQ's.

We understood this was to be changed by now, but it did not happen...so volunteers are waiting.

The volunteers are trying to do the best we can, with what we have been supplied with.

Ahhhk mate, i was just curious as to why the numbers jumped from 500s to 200s to 400s etc etc. Rather than being sequential like Adelfires numbers.


Offline Fire000

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Re: When to push the button?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2010, 11:51:07 PM »
It is interesting how the job stacking happens, units pike Whyalla and Kapunda getting smashed with no backup and people ringing back that haven't been attended to, do they ask for strike teams or even simple things like CFS or MFS help?


I agree that the SES are not always as quick to call for CFS/MFS mutual aid assistance as they should. In situations like tonight, SES Units and CFS Brigades need to be used together (and as the night went on most CFS resources ended up going active). Would it not be a bad idea to have a CFS Liason Officer at each SES region to coordinate the CFS resources, and consdier things such as maintaining BA and RCR coverage to the various regions. All too often we see SES stack on the tasks, no fault of their own as they don't control the weather, but for crying out loud call for help and do the right thing by your community. It's ok to admit you need backup from CFS and MFS.... no one will think any less of your organisation. In fact you will gain the respect that you can think logically.


This may just be my observation, but it looks poor to see the SES SCC carrying on with its blinkers on, only considering its own SES resources. From what i can see it's mainly Adel Fire calling out the CFS Brigades, with some local cooperation between SES-CFS at the unit/region level. Perhaps SES need the ability/ authorisation to page CFS Brigades for responses, but this would be best served with a CFS liason overseeing to ensure CFS coverage remains (as discussed above).

Well done to all the SES, CFS and MFS crews out there tonight. A FANTASTIC job in testing circumstances. Amazing what volunteers can do.

 

 





« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 11:54:19 PM by Fire000 »

Offline bajdas

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Re: When to push the button?
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2010, 01:50:09 AM »
This discussion is a repeat of previous. Liaison officers are in multiple SES centres, CFS is being dispatched (will be quicker when one system), tactical planning is being done....not all sent via pager because more information can be sent by other means.

I personally believe it will get better when politics, new process & money is sorted out.
Andrew Macmichael
lives at Pt Noarlunga South.

My personal opinion only.

Offline OldOne

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Re: When to push the button?
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2010, 08:47:34 AM »
It's interesting that all these comments are based on what people see on the paging service,  I will running the Northern Suburbs operation centre where we cleared and processed tasks from Enfield to all the way past Gawler. 

All tasks from about 2pm were received via FAX and sent out via FAX to other units and CFS operations running at One Tree Hill who then tasked their strike teams.  By late afternoon we cleared dozens of tasks VIA FAX to CFS who were covering the areas from Elizabeth north to past Gawler and I know they were also receiving other jobs direct from MFS, local public and SES State Ops most also via Fax or phone calls.

Do not base your task operations info on the paging system as its too slow to handle hundreds of jobs per hour plus hard copy is needed to sort and collate priorities groups and then handed to crews when returning for breaks.

Cheers,
OldOne
 
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misterteddy

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Re: When to push the button?
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2010, 08:59:02 AM »
so you make the system fit your work practices with hard copies and paper trails and the like.....is that right? Let's hope the phone lines never fail, the exchange is  water logged or burnt out, or the printer shits itself...

No wonder the modern paging system doesnt work.

Quote
08-12-10 09:55:14 MFS: FROM RESIDENT STOP CALL FOR INCIDENT AT 1075 GREENHILL ROAD, SUMMERTOWN. MARGARET ARCHER. UNSURE OF DIN. CALLED AT 11PM LAST NIGHT. FLOODING OF BACK ROOM - SES Adelaide Hills Response

this must have been one that slipped through ..... I guess they should have rung in triplicate hard copy
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 09:08:22 AM by misterteddy »

Offline 6739264

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Re: When to push the button?
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2010, 09:28:43 AM »
Awww, it's so cute to watch die hard SES members rally around a failed system.

It'd be interesting to see the call response stats for the SES from recipt of call to a resource (ANY resource SES/MFS/CFS) arriving on scene.

And then at what point it goes from mass defaulting of calls to getting strike teams into areas...

There has to be a better way to do things, and I don't think that SACAD is going to be the answer.
To think they employed me as a drooling retard...

Offline OldOne

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Re: When to push the button?
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2010, 09:57:52 AM »
There has to be a better way to do things, and I don't think that SACAD is going to be the answer.

SACAD is not going to be the answer when you get hundreds of jobs an hour.  We had lightning last night with power bumps and ADSL spikes resetting the modem causing internet dropouts a number of times (not due to our end on a UPS) so there would be no way of accessing SACAD live when the internet is down. 

With paging, how do you sort, track and process hundreds of jobs, hand copy of the pager screen or cut and past from a pager decoder(site) on to a local computer, all very slow, have tried it !!

At least with hard copy either fax or computer printout you can sort and track very quickly even when you loose your computer network due to lighting all around you.

Operating a large Ops centre with hundreds of jobs in a VERY short time span is not easy and no one system will work,  there needs to be a mix of technology and old style white boards and paper.

OldOne

SES Communications trainer

Offline Darius

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Re: When to push the button?
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2010, 10:07:32 AM »
just got one thing to say (as badjas said it's all been said before, it's a pity such a stuffed system takes so long to get sorted but that's what you get when people play empire building and politics) and that's the paging system can handle a lot more than it did over the last day or so.  OldOne you said "its too slow to handle hundreds of jobs per hour", I would suggest one page every 10 secs is 360 per hour, which is easily achievable. I would hope one page per second (3600/hr) is achievable (the bitrate is 1600 so 200 chars/sec theoretically should be).

pumprescue

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Re: When to push the button?
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2010, 10:59:07 AM »
It will be interesting to see when Adelaide Fire end up taking on the whole lot and can no longer hand over to the volunteers. Combine the 2 workloads and the fact that you might end up with fire appliances on a lot more responses and it could be fun to watch !!

Offline OldOne

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Re: When to push the button?
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2010, 12:08:29 PM »
I would suggest one page every 10 secs is 360 per hour, which is easily achievable. I would hope one page per second (3600/hr) is achievable (the bitrate is 1600 so 200 chars/sec theoretically should be).

Look at the total pager picture,it's not the sending capability that's the problem it's processing the jobs at the receiving end.  You can cue up many messages to the paging service via computer but how do you handle 30 to 100 messages on a pager when the new pagers only handle 19 messages at a time or the Samsung about 75 messages at a time with out loosing the first ones.  The only other option is pager decoders interfaced with computers at every headquarters or SACAD if you are on line 24/7

The paging system was never designed as a bulk message sending to a single pager capcode, it is designed for the distribution of many messages to many pager capcodes.

Oldone
SES Communications trainer

Offline Darius

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Re: When to push the button?
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2010, 12:24:23 PM »
just making it clear it's not the paging system being too slow (as you said) but the work practice(s) the SES choose to use.

rescue5271

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Re: When to push the button?
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2010, 01:14:17 PM »
If the public had done there cleaning out od gutters and downpipes there would have been less call outs...Great to see at long last we got faxes from SES of jobs in our area but also some communications about SES back up if needed which it was not...

When to push the button, Well we all like to hold onto our own things as long as we can before we ask for help.. From what I did see SES/MFS/CFS worked well and lets get real you are always going to have jobs that will sit there for hours due to crews being busy.. Remember in the new days of OHSW you still have to feed and rest your crews.....

misterteddy

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Re: When to push the button?
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2010, 01:43:55 PM »
SACAD is not the answer, apart from ensuring that all messages get to an EOC that is suitable manned by all services(doesnt really matter by who, paid or Vol), suitably equipped (with Computers, UPS and a generator). Internet shouldnt be relied on (anti-terrorism 101 and Respond to Poohstorm 102 says dont rely on the Net for anything...and yet apparantly we still do), and faxing tasking is a joke - ever heard of Group/burst SMS?, NextG email or any 21st Century communication device? heaven forbid a PDA/tablet. Use the EOC to triage and prioritise (not everything needs a T/L to go and lay eyes on it - remembering this is one way many Units play the system and are seen to arrive within their prescribed/required times - noting the actual appliance and worker ants might arrive 45 mins or an hour, or two later), and then use the SYSTEM to page crews with their allocated job. When they clear they get the next one off the rank. It's not that filtered hard, the hardware is already in place just scattered amongst the individual fiefdoms. 10-15 smart people and a prick to deflate the egos and its a relatively simple task - please don't pretend it's anything but. Adelaide isnt big enough to warrant a montage of devolved Ops Coord centres. Despite the size of the chips on our shoulders, we arent Sydney or Melb or New York.

If this system looks familiar......it is pretty close to one that operates all day everyday in Adelaide now, with over a 1000 jobs a day handled (mostly) without too many dramas....and not many people waiting 9 hours for their soggy loungeroom to be looked at. Is the SAAS R&D perfect??...no way, they dont have the kahoonas to tackle some of their internal egos BUT it deals routinely with large numbers everyday and is it better than what we have now!!

SES, you're system is stuffed.....if you don't want it changed by the umpire (the Govt), or by Royal Commission report then do something about it yourselves and stop short changing the public

Offline chook

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Re: When to push the button?
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2010, 01:51:59 PM »
Try operating without a paging system! :wink: Its all about planning & local/regional control. And having a system similar to what you described MT. Anyway it sounds like it has all worked out ok in the end. By the way we have been basically on "Alert" (And regional Hq people have been active) since October and we have major jobs going on all over the state at this very moment (including right here)& guess what? no real dramas. Anyway I had better go & help fill sandbags :-) bye 4 now
Ken
just another retard!

Offline bajdas

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Re: When to push the button?
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2010, 02:40:56 PM »
Last I heard is the system is being planned for handover, but issues in the technology to summarise output from SACAD (not CRIIMSON) and if the 'call receipt & dispatch' supplier will do the job now.

Rumour is they looked at the potential wage bill compared to volunteers, :evil: now they know it could involve processing 1000 to 2000 taskings within 24 to 48 hours.

State Emergency Centre opened last night and a AlertSA message was sent this afternoon.

A `Emergency Alert' was issued at this afternoon. Details can be found at http://www.ses.sa.gov.au/site/home.jsp

In summary:

"An Emergency Alert has been issued for people in the vicinity of Light, Wakefield and Gawler Rivers. Over topping has occurred and flooding is occurring in some locations. People in these affected areas need to take all necessary precautions to ensure their safety and should consider relocating."

Water impacted Kapunda (near Light River) and other townships heavily last night. Some septic tanks overflowed, thus the flood waters are polluted.

The flood waters have moved towards the gulf and mouth of the rivers during today.

Extra resources (trucks, sandbags, sand, etc) have been deployed to Two Wells for mitigating the potential. This includes multiple CFS and SES volunteers.

A friend has confirmed today that his family received the AlertSA SMS this afternoon because he lives in the affected area.

So if you want to play in the poohy water, then you can get your chance.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 02:50:23 PM by bajdas »
Andrew Macmichael
lives at Pt Noarlunga South.

My personal opinion only.

Offline bajdas

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Re: When to push the button?
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2010, 03:02:28 PM »
just got one thing to say (as badjas said it's all been said before, it's a pity such a stuffed system takes so long to get sorted but that's what you get when people play empire building and politics) and that's the paging system can handle a lot more than it did over the last day or so.....

AGREED.... but I dont think complaining on this forum is going to help.

As volunteers we work with the systems given to us, to the best of our ability, to assist the community.

Majority of us do not care for empire building, but it is evident in ALL emergency services and many business, that I have had contact with.

Stay safe and for the political people watching this forum *** MY PERSONAL OPINION ONLY***
Andrew Macmichael
lives at Pt Noarlunga South.

My personal opinion only.

 

anything