Author Topic: Standard Trucks  (Read 13153 times)

Offline bittenyakka

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Standard Trucks
« on: March 29, 2011, 01:56:26 PM »
Of late I have found myself involved in discussions about appliances a bit. The frequent occurance is that people want to see Standardisation so it is it easier to work and you can always find equipment on other brigades appliances.

What do you think?

What level of standardisation do you want or not want? is it just that hoses are stored on the right had side or should we all have the same Trucks?

Should we take a leaf out of the MFS and FRNSW appliance style where they are much the same each year but do incorporate new technology and improvements?

Offline Zippy

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Re: Standard Trucks
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2011, 04:15:18 PM »
some quick notes to start.

- Hose on the passenger/safe side.
- Only Four classes of appliaces: Urban, Rural, Light Rural and BWC.

Amount of Hose:
Urban: 8 Lengths of Filler Hose, 2 Trays (60m) of 64mm Collecting Hose, 6 Lengths of 38mm.
Rural: Very much the same as a 34P and 34, and with 6 lengths of 25mm
Light Rural: Pretty much a 14 with 6 lengths of 25mm. 1 Length 64 and 2 length 38.

- A Rule: stick to a standard, very much like the old Hino's, till it fails to work in its working environment, then and only then, create a new long term standard.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 04:23:35 PM by Zippy »

Offline 6739264

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Re: Standard Trucks
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2011, 11:32:30 PM »
Of late I have found myself involved in discussions about appliances a bit. The frequent occurance is that people want to see Standardisation so it is it easier to work and you can always find equipment on other brigades appliances.

What do you think?

What level of standardisation do you want or not want? is it just that hoses are stored on the right had side or should we all have the same Trucks?

Should we take a leaf out of the MFS and FRNSW appliance style where they are much the same each year but do incorporate new technology and improvements?


We really need to look at a modular system by which we have a basic, or reference, design around a few core trucks. For example we might have Urban, Urban/Rural, Rural, Light Rural, BWC. Similar to what Zippy suggested, but more inline with the SFEC document. Now, from this, lets say the Urban design is a 2wd truck with a 4000lpm pump (4 in/4 out). The Urban/Rural would be say, a 4wd truck, with a 3000lpm pump (best of both worlds with 4in, 4 out) the Rural truck a 4wd with a 2000lpm pump (2 out, 2 in). So, very basically you have three major reference designs that meet the basics of what each truck could be expected to do. The Urban truck can supply an Aerial appliance if need be, and thus is useful for CoQ. The Urban/Rural truck has enough plumbing and pump capability that it can boost 99% of installations it comes across, AND its 4wd. The Rural truck has enough to get to work in an urban environment, but is far better suited to Rural work. Of course you can dodge tank capacity and pump specs around, but can we all see what I'm getting at?

So from these handful of basic designs, we then have a modular system of stowage that allows individual brigades to configure the lockers themselves (eg: a consultation process that involves region, I&L and the Brigade). Need an Urban truck with Rescue stowage? Then the N/S 1 locker gets a "Rescue" fit-out, so that it can stow what it needs to. Need Hazmat on an Urban/Rural truck? Then O/S 2 gets a "Hazmat" fit out, etc etc... If the trucks are made so that the lockers are easily setup, then when it gets moved to another brigade, there is little problem with reconfiguring it.

This would also mean that a truck with no specialization could well be configured to carry a HUGE amount of hose, or other assorted things that the Brigade sees fit. Use a heap of 25mm hose on your rural truck? Then you get a hose locker that is configured to carry 10 lengths, rather than 4. Certainly the location of some things between trucks should stay as similar as possible, (eg: hose stowage) to ensure that people can function off other appliances within reason.

If we give Brigades a set of options (within a clearly defined number of modular changes) then I believe that a large number of appliance "problems" will suddenly vanish. Brigades will feel like they are being included in the discussion and hopefully the service won't end up with single trucks costing near on $1million, like both the Dennis and Stirling's Pumper.

some quick notes to start.

- Hose on the passenger/safe side.
- Only Four classes of appliaces: Urban, Rural, Light Rural and BWC.

Amount of Hose:
Urban: 8 Lengths of Filler Hose, 2 Trays (60m) of 64mm Collecting Hose, 6 Lengths of 38mm.
Rural: Very much the same as a 34P and 34, and with 6 lengths of 25mm
Light Rural: Pretty much a 14 with 6 lengths of 25mm. 1 Length 64 and 2 length 38.

- A Rule: stick to a standard, very much like the old Hino's, till it fails to work in its working environment, then and only then, create a new long term standard.

Is the fire always on the passenger side? Is the passenger side always safe? Why is the driver not parking in a fend off position to cover the crew?

I would really like to hear the rationale behind your Urban hose stowage suggestion.

Just to ensure I have it correct, you are suggesting:

8x8m Filler Hose Lengths
2 Trays, EACH tray containing 2x30m 64mm hose, flaked in a "supply" lay (Total of 4 hoses)
6 x 38mm Delivery Hose.

To think they employed me as a drooling retard...

Offline Zippy

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Re: Standard Trucks
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2011, 12:33:44 PM »
8x8m Filler Hose Lengths
Boosting, or used there the hydrant is literally beside the truck.

2 Trays, EACH tray containing 2x30m 64mm hose, flaked in a "supply" lay (Total of 4 hoses)
Yep, enough hose to get you 120m away from the appliance, or dualheading of a hydrant up to 60m away. By the time you need more, more appliances would be on scene, with more hose. Where most (generally) urban appliances are, the next appliance would be on scene reasonably soon, most likely when the appliance is nearly about to change over from tank to mains water.

And using your suggestion of making non-specialist brigades, a specialist brigade by holding more than normal hose...the 2nd or 3rd appliance, would have the amount of hose to reach 3 or 4 hydrants away.  Pseudo-Hoselayer appliances.

Meanwhile! 4WD appliances, should have 6 lengths of 64mm, to allow for a longer arrival time of further appliances.

6 x 38mm Delivery Hose.
2 lengths of 38mm per attack line. For two teams of two. 2 further lengths for an additional team or adding a length.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 12:39:25 PM by Zippy »

Offline 6739264

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Re: Standard Trucks
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2011, 04:11:55 PM »
8x8m Filler Hose Lengths
Boosting, or used there the hydrant is literally beside the truck.

This is assuming that the Booster cabinet is within 8m of a hard stand area AND first arriving appliances/other vehicles have not parked the booster in. What happens when this is not the case? You're only carrying 4x30m of 64mm hose, thus you can't boost a 4/4 system if the booster hose doesn't reach. Unless you then fumble around connecting booster lengths up. Wouldn't it be smarter to use the space taken up by lots of small lengths with 30m lengths that you can actually use in a variety of ways?

2 Trays, EACH tray containing 2x30m 64mm hose, flaked in a "supply" lay (Total of 4 hoses)
Yep, enough hose to get you 120m away from the appliance, or dualheading of a hydrant up to 60m away. By the time you need more, more appliances would be on scene, with more hose. Where most (generally) urban appliances are, the next appliance would be on scene reasonably soon, most likely when the appliance is nearly about to change over from tank to mains water.

What happens when the hydrant is 120m away, and you need to get 64mm to work on an exposure? You've tied up all of your 64mm as supply lines, leaving none for fire attack use. You can only relay pump to a truck 60m away - a horribly inefficient use of fire ground resources. Juggling the numbers, you should be able to relay pump a distance of around 210m on level ground with a CFS Type 2 pumper, providing you have enough hose...

I still can't see why you'd want to limit yourself to only 4 lengths of 64m? That's fine for a Rural truck, but for an Urban truck, you should be looking at ATLEAST double, preferably triple the amount of hose. Even a basic defensive attack using 2 lines in, and 2 attack lines out, at 2 lengths a line, will require 8 lengths of hose.

And using your suggestion of making non-specialist brigades, a specialist brigade by holding more than normal hose...the 2nd or 3rd appliance, would have the amount of hose to reach 3 or 4 hydrants away.  Pseudo-Hoselayer appliances.

Mmmm I wasn't quite suggesting that it would become a hoselayer of sorts, but I see where you're going with it. I meant more that the appliances with specialist stowage would be carrying LESS hose than the standard for the given appliance design. Eg: Urban truck might carry 14 lengths of 64, 10 lengths of 38 and 6 lengths of 25mm, and the RCR version might have only 10x64mm, 6x38mm, 4x25mm, or can the 25mm altogether, given 90m hosereels. Pumpers ARE meant to carry hose, the CFS tends to forget this...

Meanwhile! 4WD appliances, should have 6 lengths of 64mm, to allow for a longer arrival time of further appliances.

You heard it hear first guys and girls, Rural trucks need more large diameter hose than Urban trucks. Don't forget that it's about being able to operate effectively on the fireground, not just barely surviving until the next appliance and it's 4 lengths of 64mm arrive.

6 x 38mm Delivery Hose.
2 lengths of 38mm per attack line. For two teams of two. 2 further lengths for an additional team or adding a length.

And when its a 2 storey house? That's 3 if not 4 lengths in a line, assuming you're pulling up outside the house and it's not a typically long Adelaide Hills driveway. What about large commercial premises?

Although if we actually start seeing "High Pressure" (2500-3000kpa, not the 800kpa 34P style) lines on Pumpers, then perhaps the 38mm stowage can be reduced, or we bring it inline with SAMFS.

Just trying to pose some thoughts...
To think they employed me as a drooling retard...

Offline bittenyakka

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Re: Standard Trucks
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2011, 07:31:54 PM »
Good thoughts, I am with numbers on reducing the number of filler lengths.

however about the Rural trucks carrying 4x 64 just th throw it out there do they really need that ? yes the more rural R1 and  lofty rangers probably do but out on the flatlands? members i have spoken to out there have jaws drop to the floor when i say i would like 10 lengths of layflat on my truck. ( atm i am outvoted on this)

Offline Darcyq

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Re: Standard Trucks
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2011, 07:58:17 PM »
Rather than 10 lengths of 25mm, run a few length of 38mm from the truck to a "Gated-Y" then control your 25mm lengths from that point.Works well.

Offline bittenyakka

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Re: Standard Trucks
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2011, 06:32:05 PM »
yeah Darcy that would work as well.

So since we have specified what stowage we would like lets look at the 34p which hasn't really changed much since CFS has been building them. Is this "standard" enough between builds etc?

Offline Alan J

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Re: Standard Trucks
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2011, 06:54:12 PM »
Rather than 10 lengths of 25mm, run a few length of 38mm from the truck to a "Gated-Y" then control your 25mm lengths from that point.Works well.

This tends to be what happens later.
Initial (vegetation) attack is 25mm live reel with lay-flat added to that.
Start thinking about alternatives when insufficient pressure/volume out the end.

Most common use we have for 64mm is refilling off our portable pump.
Easier to set that in a dam 2 or 3 lengths away from a track than cut fence.
Have also had up to 6 appliances daisy-chained off it during mop-up.
One day we might add a ball valve to the end of the lay to save trekking back
& forth to start/stop the pump.

Of course, there is stowage for neither portable pump nor chainsaw on current 34...
Alan J.
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Offline Darius

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Re: Standard Trucks
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2011, 09:16:12 AM »
the lack of chainsaw stowage is definitely a defect (and that the brigade that receives the appliance has to correct that at their own expense is just wrong). Regardless of what HQ might think, a chainsaw is essential for rural (and probably even urban) brigades. Don't MFS trucks even carry a chainsaw?

Offline SA Firey

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Re: Standard Trucks
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2011, 09:34:15 AM »
the lack of chainsaw stowage is definitely a defect (and that the brigade that receives the appliance has to correct that at their own expense is just wrong). Regardless of what HQ might think, a chainsaw is essential for rural (and probably even urban) brigades. Don't MFS trucks even carry a chainsaw?


The late Donald MacArthur was an advocate of standardisation and we saw that with the earlier models of the Hino's back in the 90's built by CFA workshops now SEM.

Yes MFS do carry chainsaws on their appliances.
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Offline Alan J

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Re: Standard Trucks
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2011, 09:55:11 PM »

If we give Brigades a set of options (within a clearly defined number of modular changes) then I believe that a large number of appliance "problems" will suddenly vanish. Brigades will feel like they are being included in the discussion and hopefully the service won't end up with single trucks costing near on $1million, like both the Dennis and Stirling's Pumper.


Talking with Sandy P when we took delivery of our new 34 last July, & subsequent
discussions on what is wrong with it (as well as likes/dislikes) it seems that
this is exactly where CFS HQ like to get to. However they are hamstrung by lack
of $$ to employ staff to develop & manage such a system.  Every variation/option
has to be separately costed, and more importantly, load distribution calculated.
So at this stage it is choice of "rural" or "urban" stowage.

More choice is entirely possible, and highly desirable to everyone, but alas,
no money to make it happen.

Not happy that the brigade has to pay for chainsaw stowage retrofit.
On the plus side, I suppose $2000 or so to rearrange the under-tray stowage is
cheaper than fund-raising for a whole appliance. For an extra thou or so we can
get that stupid foam drum out of the RHS locker & put something useful in there
too.
Alan J.
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Offline TillerMan

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Re: Standard Trucks
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2011, 12:43:25 PM »
some quick notes to start.

- Hose on the passenger/safe side.
- Only Four classes of appliaces: Urban, Rural, Light Rural and BWC.

Amount of Hose:
Urban: 8 Lengths of Filler Hose, 2 Trays (60m) of 64mm Collecting Hose, 6 Lengths of 38mm.
Rural: Very much the same as a 34P and 34, and with 6 lengths of 25mm
Light Rural: Pretty much a 14 with 6 lengths of 25mm. 1 Length 64 and 2 length 38.

- A Rule: stick to a standard, very much like the old Hino's, till it fails to work in its working environment, then and only then, create a new long term standard.

Huh filler hose? No way, we have 1.

Also have 13 lengths of 64mm, 7 lengths of 38mm and 2 25mm layflats.

 

anything