SACAD

[flyonthewall]

So what is so hard about giving your status as K2?

If every other status is sent - K1 > mobile to incident, -XXX-,  K3 > at incident but available to respond, K4 > mobile, K5 > at home station........ every other status has been entered?

I think someone dosen't want to have an official log of how long it takes to get to an incident?

SACAD is about resource tracking.  Adelaide Fire don't want to know we have arrived, we have already booked mobile.

...... "SACAD is about resource tracking" - spot on

...... "Adelaide fire don't want to know we have arrived" - Possibly not but  SACAD does (or should) ....so the resource tracking has already gone out the window!

[Alan (Big Al)]

adelaide fire dont want or need sitreps, and how hard is it to pop up and say blah blah 24 is k2, why would u need to change to your local TG from going mobile to arriving??

[pumprescue]

The guys I spoke to in comms said in their training it was taught that All services would be giving all status updates, then in the last week or so that changed after CFS had a meeting with their people and voted not to tell comms when they arrive....weird

[mengcfs]

Once mobile they are hardly going to task/divert an appliance to a different job. It is assumed that if you book mobile you will get to the job.  Once job complete, book available so AF can re-task if necessary.

Ah, but if you've booked arrived, then SACAD lists you as at the location of the incident, so if you book available again and a second job occurs nearby you can be sent as the closest available resource...  That's the theory anyway...

SACAD already knows our location...It sent us there in the first place!

[flyonthewall]

Posted on: Today at 02:50:32 PMPosted by: mengcfs  

Quote from: CFS_Firey on Today at 11:52:52 AM
Quote from: mengcfs on Today at 11:26:40 AM
Once mobile they are hardly going to task/divert an appliance to a different job. It is assumed that if you book mobile you will get to the job.  Once job complete, book available so AF can re-task if necessary.


Ah, but if you've booked arrived, then SACAD lists you as at the location of the incident, so if you book available again and a second job occurs nearby you can be sent as the closest available resource...  That's the theory anyway...


SACAD already knows our location...It sent us there in the first place!

You aren't getting it! SACAD does not know - WHEN YOU HAVE REACHED YOUR INCIDENT DESTINATION therefore it does not show when or most importantly if you have arrived. It shows you are going to your destination (K1), It shows when you can leave to further respond (K3), It shows you have left your destination/are mobile (K4) and it shows when you have come home (K5)

Arriving at the incident is as important as being mobile towards it or being able to respond to something else.

What I am getting at is that the system is only as good as the inputs put into it. If across the board there is a standard response and procedure to follow, then why does the CFS have to do it different to everyone if a STANDARD is trying to be met/implemented.

[misterteddy]

there are many points of view on what SACAD is, was, should be or could be

At this stage, MFS and CFS dont use SACAD and Adelaide Fire as an Incident Control function, merely as a resource allocation and partial tracking (without AVL). As others have said, once u are on the way, Adelaide Fire and SACAD dont care when u get there, now what u are doing....only when u are finished and available for another job.

The Incident Controller or other attending appliances to your job ARE the ones who care about when u arrive (along with what u see), so it is the right decision in this case, with the way we currently run Adel Fire and SACAD, to be on a operational freq for everything after leaving the shed I believe.

Whoever said they dont need to leave Adel Fire to their local TG between rolling and arriving?....seriously?....<shakes head>.....for me its when u get all the real information. AF on a busy day is a zoo.... the least amount of time on there the better for mine....start finish, thats enough until we get an MDT

[Alex]

CFS are not booking K3 at scenes.

They are only ack-ing, booking mobile [K1] and clear of call [k4/k5].

Note, before booking clear of call, you must be back in your own area, or close enough to be an effective response to it; ie, burnside 24 booking clear of call when they are still at Mt Barker would be innapropriate. As the responses in the CAD works on zones and pre-designated station response orders to those zones, not the appliances last known location.

It will not work to 'just pick the closest resource' until AVL and basic MDTs are implemented by CFS.... when that comes around i can just imagine all the fully crewed CFS appliances on 'driver training' in the CBD just waiting for a fire alarm, lmao.

[Alan (Big Al)]

Appliance GRN radio on Regional TG Portable GRN on local talkgroup or vice versa, wow look u can talk to both.

[Zippy]

Hopefully SOP's will state absolutely every truck offline moment needs to be logged with AF...

[bajdas]

If Adelaide Fire took all operational calls regards vehicle movement, how many extra paid $$$ staff would the UFU be after in MFS ComCen....goodbye budget for anything else.

As well, you would loose local knowledge to manage the incident scene and resources.

** personal opinion only **

[pumprescue]

You wouldn't lose anything, as no one is there now, there aren't to many comms only people left, and those that are left are getting to retirement age.

We are one of the only fire services left that still do comms through the local station, so its not a new idea, we are just slow to change and stuck in the mud.

Also Bajdas, who's to say they haven't already got the staff 

[Alan (Big Al)]

*

[misterteddy]

You wouldn't lose anything, as no one is there now, there aren't to many comms only people left, and those that are left are getting to retirement age.

I wouldnt be so quick to make that assumption.....there are plenty in the Brigades and Groups I know of or have worked with

[pumprescue]

I know there are plenty of ops brigades, and like the victorian set up they are vital for escalating jobs, but I am talking about the bin fire at 3am, why do we need to open the station, and why should a group duty officer need to do it either. Only reason we don't use Adelaide Fire is we talk to much !!

[Zippy]

I would prefer Up to 10 FTE positions per shift in Comms (Be it mixed fireys and mixed civvies), compared to some of the bad projects/money spending by SAFECOM (encompassing all three services).

Having a full allotment of trained comms staff of that amount, would mean better SLA adherence and the ability to take communications on regional talkgroups for Level 1 Incidents (Level 2: GCC/Level 3: RCC) (Just an Idea)

CFA uses radio protocols that CFS should mix with our current ones. And from random listening to VicFire channels, using the protocols by volly appliances is well done.

9 CFA Radio Procedures

[FlameTrees]

Doing some CRIIMSON training the other night, and I noticed that there is now an "arrival" option on the drop down list on the summary screen (the main one).

Now it may have always been there and I only noticed due to this current discussion, or it could be new ready for this.

If so, could be interesting, because I'm pretty sure there aren't too many brigades who have CRIIMSON trained radio operators to enter an arrival message. Unless the radio operator happens to be part of the group IMT as well.

[Alex]

Doing some CRIIMSON training the other night, and I noticed that there is now an "arrival" option on the drop down list on the summary screen (the main one).

Now it may have always been there and I only noticed due to this current discussion, or it could be new ready for this.

If so, could be interesting, because I'm pretty sure there aren't too many brigades who have CRIIMSON trained radio operators to enter an arrival message. Unless the radio operator happens to be part of the group IMT as well.

Always been there. CRIIMSON does not push information to SACAD though.

[misterteddy]

CFA uses radio protocols that CFS should mix with our current ones. And from random listening to VicFire channels, using the protocols by volly appliances is well done.

interesting....according to the clip the use of standard Pro-words helps to save time and ensures that there is no confusion when operasting with other agencies.....and yet

Acknowledge is used when every other agency in the world that talks on a radio uses Roger,

and every message is apparantly read back in its entirity by the Comms Op....negating any time saved using pro-words - so not necessary and just a waste of prescious (radio) time

[flyonthewall]

Posted on: Yesterday at 12:38:33 AMPosted by: Zippy 
I would prefer Up to 10 FTE positions per shift in Comms (Be it mixed fireys and mixed civvies), compared to some of the bad projects/money spending by SAFECOM (encompassing all three services).

Having a full allotment of trained comms staff of that amount, would mean better SLA adherence and the ability to take communications on regional talkgroups for Level 1 Incidents (Level 2: GCC/Level 3: RCC) (Just an Idea)

CFA uses radio protocols that CFS should mix with our current ones. And from random listening to VicFire channels, using the protocols by volly appliances is well done.

 
9 CFA Radio Procedures
 

Don't you guys follow something like this now when you do your radio comms?

[Alan J]

Hmmmm... lots of negativity about group comms getting involved early & taking the response & arrival messages & passing them on to Adelaide Fire.

Personally, I think it a Good Thing, but requires Groups to be rather organised.

Picture this for Regions 1 & 2 especially...
1 x AdFire dispatcher for each regional TG.

1st alarm grassy on an FDI>50 day response is 4 appliances (4 stations)
All 4 (or more) appliances need to send acknowledge, responding & arrival messages.
They will be trying to do this at about the same time as each other.
Escalate it to 4rd alarm because the responding appliances can see Big Smoke.
Now there are 16+ appliances (plus tankers & Group cars) all simultaneously trying to acknowledge, respond and arrive on the single Regional TG to a single AdFire dispatcher...
 
Now, light a second fire.
Another 4+ appliances trying to do same.  On the same TG.

Hellooooo...   congestion.  

Now, what happens when, due to congested TG, some of those appliances miss their ack or resp targets & are deemed to have defaulted ?
Answer: respond some MORE appliances. ON THE SAME TG...  

Then, when a fire has become huge, and the Regional TG is choked solid handling major incident stuff, another job comes in - respond rubbish bin fire... now some poor bunny is trying to cut into high level incident management traffic 3 times to report ack, resp & arr.

IF they can get air-time, I predict they'll be about as welcome as pork at a Bar Mitzvah.  

Methinks The Plan sucketh.  Mightily.

No disputing that AdFire need to track resources.
I don't think individual appliances on the Regional TG is the best way to do it. It doesn't scale up from small incidents very well at all.
Better for Group comms to handle appliance traffic & pass messages by phone or aggregation to AdFire ( Oodnawoopwoop34, Blackhole24 and Louisville34 responding INC123. Out.)  The short delay is undesirable, but better than causing AdFire comms melt-down before an incident has time to get properly disorganised.

Ideal would be some form of data transfer - pager message / email / instant message / facebook -  at least until we get in-cab terminals anyway. (I think they're budgeted for sometime in the 29th century.)

As for the new response zones & lists - so far, I likes them.
We are off at one corner of our group, bordering 2 other groups.
Already we are responding with them across boundaries where previously,
response would have been kept in-group.  Both ways.  This is a Good Thing.  
cheers

[Zippy]

FYI SACAD DOCUMENTATION NOW FOUND ON CFS WEBSITE MEMBERS ONLY SECTION.

[CFS_Firey]

FYI SACAD DOCUMENTATION NOW FOUND ON CFS WEBSITE MEMBERS ONLY SECTION.

and the caps lock key is found just above the left shift key on most keyboards

[pumprescue]

I don't agree at all Alan, the part where it all falls down is the bit from initial response to the base opening, so what was going to happen, which has now been squashed, is doing the normal run of the mill stuff and then opening the base for actual going jobs.

But we will be stuck in the 19th century and be one the ONLY fire services in the country still doing it all through the local station.

[vsteve01]

some interesting reading.

Confused by this

The Adelaide Fire operator will take the appliance “out of service”
for 60 minutes and then notify the CFS Regional Coordinator of the
default and “out of service status”.

The 60 minute timer on SACAD triggers the Adelaide Fire operator to
call the CFS Regional Coordinator to advise the appliance/s is still
out of service (and unable to respond to any other incidents) and they
will remain out of service until Adelaide Fire is advised otherwise.

Is it saying that the 60min default is not automatically reset to available and that we need to advise AF that we can be undefaulted?

Also the bit about 14's not being responded except if is the only resource or a customised response plans exist could prove interesting

[Alex]

Is it saying that the 60min default is not automatically reset to available and that we need to advise AF that we can be undefaulted?

During those 60mins it will not be considered for response. At 60mins it prompts Adelaide Fire to chase you up via region. If the brigade contacts Adelaide Fire and says it is available before then it will be booked back on.

Also the bit about 14's not being responded except if is the only resource or a customised response plans exist could prove interesting

This is not quite accurate.

QRVs are actually the only appliances not reccomended for response. Light Tankers are still in response plans, but the system will give preference to reponding a heavy tanker.

ie; for an urban event the system will give preference to responding;
1/pumper
then 2/heavy tanker with pumper attribute [24p or 34p]
then 3/heavy tanker [24 or 34]
then 4/light tanker [14]

for a rual event type they system will give preference to responding;
1/heavy tanker
then 2/heavy tanker with pumper attribute
then 3/light tanker [14]
then 4/ pumper

So if a heavy tanker is available in the appropriate backup beat, it will get turned out before a light tanker. Lets remember a 14, or now a light tanker, does not actually constitute an appliance per CFS standards of response. Hope that clears it up.