Author Topic: SAAS Responding Other Services..  (Read 217113 times)

Offline Alan (Big Al)

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,609
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • CRUMPETS
    • View Profile
SAAS Responding Other Services..
« on: December 02, 2005, 02:26:17 PM »
I believe this subject may have been talked about before but i believe that the time taken by SAAS to respond other services to MVA's and related calls is sometimes pathetic!! Looking at the GRN pager website the call times between SAAS and then Fire & Rescue coverage being called can sometimes go as high as 20Min's, eg: in the early hours of this morning at Paringa SAAS was responded to an MVA, it was around 10-11 Min's before Renmark SES and Paringa CFS were responded, although this accident resulted in a fatality if the PT was still alive this accounts for a lot of lost time. A second example a month or so back a car crashed at Burra as a result of a high speed chase, SAAS was responded and 22 minutes after that Rescue was called and the occupants were trapped for some time as a result of the accident.

 I have spoken to some of our local volunteer AO's and they said that if the accident doesn't sound that bad or they aren't given many details then SAAS comms wont respond other resources until the info is updated or the first ambulance arrives to let them know if any one else is required.
 
 I was told a couple years ago as a directive that fire was meant to be responded to all MVA's attended by SAAS as a safety and assistance measure for them. I mean a lot of the time Fire and or Rescue are responded within 1-4minutes which is a pretty acceptable timeframe but what about all the others that take over that time surely one day it will come down to those few minutes making a difference and we will probably be the ones in the firing line (as usual).
 
 Just my opinion though. :|
Lt. Goolwa CFS

strikeathird

  • Guest
Re: SAAS Responding Other Services..
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2005, 02:33:57 PM »
I think some of the SAAS response times for other services are bl00dy pathetic also !   It is SOOO easy to put a stop on oncoming services, but that critical time taken to respond them can put lives in jeopardy !!


Think they need to be told to automatically respond fire/rescue for VA's where services arent already on the scene.. about time they had a wake up call I think, their current method of practise could and 'possibly' has cost lives.

Offline fire03rescue

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 332
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: SAAS Responding Other Services..
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2005, 07:58:18 AM »
One day ( I hope it does not happen)
you will have a ambo in a car at a mva/rcr and it will catch on fire.
That will make thing change.

I went to a OIL SPILL and we were told before we arrived that we were not needed from the SAAS,  we kept going and well put it this way we cut him out.

Offline Robert-Robert34

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,429
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: SAAS Responding Other Services..
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2005, 11:36:34 AM »
Before SAAS Communications Centre in Mount Gambier was closed down due to communications being centralised in Adelaide any fire call that was received by SE Comms via 000 requiring CFS response the communications officer at Mount Gambier Ambulance Communications Centre would page the nearest CFS brigade to the incident

The message that would come up on our pagers in Kalangadoo whenever SAAS paged us were

SAAS: Respond Kalangadoo Station CFSRES
             Or
SAAS: Respond Kalangadoo Grass Fire On Kalangadoo-Nangwarry Road CFSRES

These two response messages are only examples but my point is that SE Comms would page us if SOC or the Wattle Range Group didnt recieve the 000 call first
Kalangadoo Brigade

strikeathird

  • Guest
Re: SAAS Responding Other Services..
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2005, 01:39:42 PM »
Thats fine, but I think the point is now, people are seeing a trend where SAAS will wait until they arrive, then notify FIRE + RESCUE. 

Now, if a car say rolls over, single vehicle accident..  (Circumstances could be anything..)  Anyway, SAAS comms take the call..   Say 3 minutes after the accident happens....   Details fairly sketchy, no mention of anyone trapped, but no one said there wasn't anyone trapped.  SAAS unit dispatched one minute later.. Mobile 1 minute after that..  (We are now 5 mins after the accident happend, and the SAAS unit are pulling out the doors)..  Say their mobile time is 9 minutes..  (They arrive 14 minutes after the vehicle rolled over.)....   They discover a person trapped, notify comms, comms notifies MFS / CFS...   Details given, nearest CFS brigade responded(That takes all of 2 minutes)..  5 minute turnout.....   We are now 21 Minutes since the vehicle rolled over, trapping the driver..  The Fire appliance is now pulling out the doors of the station.....  1 minute or 20 minute ETA , I can't see how it would matter...  With an extrication required, time at the scene for chocking, setting up the equipment and beggining the process would mean the driver would most likey be trapped in the vehicle, for a good hour...

NOW !  If FIRE + Rescue were responded at the same time as SAAS got the call, they would be a good 25 minutes infront of the 8 ball...

Goes to show how crucial time can be, and how stopping appliances is so much easier than responding them too late !

Offline Alan (Big Al)

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,609
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • CRUMPETS
    • View Profile
Re: SAAS Responding Other Services..
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2005, 03:48:55 PM »
My point exactly. The time is, as we are always taught, of a critical nature. The fact that SAAS are willing to send their members into accident scenes without proper coverage is astounding, SAAS members aren't trained to deal with unknown or even known hazards even at a minor accident. What if there is pesticides, or drug equipment or an old unstable LPG system, or any other of the 101 things that could happen at a scene. What would it take for SAAS to change their policy? An Injury? A Death of one of their own??? :-o
Another example today: MVA Williamstown SAAS responded at 08:22 CFS called at 08:39 who unfortunatly defaulted so thats already 26minutes wasted!! :oops:

 Anyone on this forum who is a trained paramedic or AO what is your opinion on this topic???
« Last Edit: December 03, 2005, 09:35:42 PM by mundcfs »
Lt. Goolwa CFS

Offline JamesGar

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 227
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Belair CFS
Re: SAAS Responding Other Services..
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2005, 12:45:51 PM »
Sorry guys, heard all the arguments before...

As a SAAS Para and ICP for 8 years and a CFS firey for 12 years I seen it from both sides of the fence. Now I've got to say if you all thing that as a fire service that we should respond to all MVA's then good luck to all the fringe urban brigades and the MFS, cause you're workload would go through the roof, for no just cause. The large majority of SAAS responses to MVA accumulate to very little, and the above spoken incidences of timed responses is only a very small percentage.

In the initial call receipt from an accident scene, if there is even a sniff of something dangerous, any form of entrapment or encapsulation, or spillage then the fire service is automatically despatched. A large majority of MVA calls come from SAPOL comcen, and we receive these calls with very little information about scene safety, patient numbers, spillage etc. The other issue is the good samaritan who drives past an accident, who will call 000 on a mobile phone and only be able to give limited information, does this require a multi agency response??

As for the SAAS comcen centralisation, I believe the benefits of the ability to give far better clinical advice to Volunteer Ambulance Crews and Caller over the phone is more important.

I think we should take another step back and think before screaming that the system doesn't work. I think you'll find it works far better than a lot of other interstate and international services with our Call receipt and despatch.

Futhermore SAAS crews all receive training on Fire/Chemical Safety and how to approach a scene safety, and if they aren't doing so then please let me know. It's a good package, I should know cause I wrote it, and deviler it quite often.
James Gardiner
Belair CFS

Offline CyberCitizen

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 430
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Fire Fighter
    • View Profile
    • http://myspace.com/cfsfirey
Re: SAAS Responding Other Services..
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2005, 01:13:09 PM »
I Agree With Some Of The Points Listed Above. Both From The SAAS Side Of Things & From The Fire & Rescue Side As Well.

Looking Through The Pager Site It Is Easy To See The Amount Of Minor MVA's SAAS Get Called To, However On The Other Side Of Things The Call Out Times Between SAAS & Fire & Rescue Are Quite Large. I Don't Think Much Can Really Be Done About It.

Offline backburn

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 329
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: SAAS Responding Other Services..
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2005, 08:52:11 PM »
We had in our area once a 2 car M V A with a gas leak. Two amdo guys running around both cars on radio talking to there base before it closed down complaing about the smell of gas. 15 Min's after their page they asked for fire cover and had to cut the people out of the cars. Interesting listening to on the scanner.

Offline Mike

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,045
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: SAAS Responding Other Services..
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2005, 05:52:34 AM »
I understand where your coming from James, the problem is a lot of these thing happen out in the middle of no where, where response times are greatly increased. And a lot of those brigades dont get a lot of calls anyway.

This leads to a couple of points:
1. you have a group of people who want to go help, but are never given the opertunity.... thus making them grumpy.
2. The number of calls a brigade gets now directly affects its funding.

your right though, more often than not it works.... and you only hear about it when it doesnt.

strikeathird

  • Guest
Re: SAAS Responding Other Services..
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2005, 08:45:28 AM »
Quote
JamesGar:  The other issue is the good samaritan who drives past an accident, who will call 000 on a mobile phone and only be able to give limited information, does this require a multi agency response??

YES !  Too darn right it does !!  Limited inforation should be treated as a worst case scenario.. How often do i have to say, it is so much simpler to inform an appliance / Rescue team / further Ambo's that they are not required, rather than risk the lives of people for the simple fact that the comms operator / receipt-dispatch operator was too lazy or ignorant to notify other services.

You could be the best paramedic /ICP / Trauma doctor in the world... What good are you to a patient who is in a burning car... Because the limited information didn't happen to mention that their was fuel leaking, which ignited upon the caller hanging up.... !!

Im sorry mate, but I totally disagree...  I would rather the call rate go up, and get a few more stop calls, than arrive to find someone dead because the services were 25 minutes late...

Offline medevac

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,659
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: SAAS Responding Other Services..
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2005, 08:53:28 AM »
SOP for all emergency service call centres is respond FIRE + RESCUE + SAPOL + SAAS to ALL reported vehicle accidents, regardless of reports of reported entrapments, injuries, fire, etc

some people just work outside the SOPs
if your curious as to wether my above statement is true then have a gander at the SA road crash resource directory

strikeathird

  • Guest
Re: SAAS Responding Other Services..
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2005, 09:01:08 AM »
So in other words, we would have every right to complain when we are not responded to MVA's in our area?  As it should have been the Operators duty to respond Fire + Rescue... Not just a bus ?

Offline medevac

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,659
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: SAAS Responding Other Services..
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2005, 09:22:15 AM »
as far as i can decifer,,, you have the right to complain (well we all have the right to complain about whatever we want to... )but i mean; if you think there is cause to complain then do it.
the number of things that get misreported are cause enough to respond fire/rescue  service to all MVAs..

its along the similar line of SAPOL being responded by fire service to every report of fire (rural/urban)as well as SAAS being responded to ever yreport of domestic/commercial/industrial structure fire...

strikeathird

  • Guest
Re: SAAS Responding Other Services..
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2005, 09:26:53 AM »
Cheers.

Offline oz fire

  • Forum Lieutenant
  • ****
  • Posts: 597
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: SAAS Responding Other Services..
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2005, 09:36:44 AM »
Couple of quick points:

James comment about SAPOL passing info to SAAS - very valid. SAPOL (under the RCRRD - Road Crash Recuse Resource Directory) have the same responsabilities as any emergeny service taking details for an incident - get as many details as possible and then respond the appropriate service (s). The call therefore is what is adequate information and this varies from service to service (it even varies between the fire services and within the fire services!!!)

As for a complaint - as stated in previous posts - the region advised us to fill in the issues form from the SOP - be specific site: time, date, location, what was found on arrival,action taken by all service etc and alike. We where informed that the RCR Steering Committee had a process for issues resolution and investigation and when we raised the issues, although it took some time we got a response.

It's fine to point the finger at one service, but there are times that the fire service has responded, found that the rubbish fire was a structure and not responded SAAS - there are many examples on every side of the fence.

So to fix it - fill in the forms, start the process and get the ball rolling - then when you don't get an answer you have something to complain about and someone to complain too  :-D
Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the ability to control it.

strikeathird

  • Guest
Re: SAAS Responding Other Services..
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2005, 09:45:58 AM »
I don't care who gets the blame. If sapol aren't doing their job on their end , they should get a kick up the behind too, as should any Fire Dispatchers that are not responding the appropriate agencies..

However, it is more often than not that you see/hear (I have any way)  MVA's where SAAS have attended, at some stage police arrive, and that is that.. Granted, FIRE and Rescue may have been given a stop enroute, however that is alot better than being responded LATE... when time is of a crucial nature..

This could go on and on, so I will end my rant, I just want to get the point across that Assistance is easier to STOP, than to respond late, and we have to get over this attitude of "She'll be right".... Expect the worse... One day it will save a life !

Offline medevac

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,659
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: SAAS Responding Other Services..
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2005, 09:55:53 AM »
plan for the worst, hope for the best

Offline bajdas

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,745
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: SAAS Responding Other Services..
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2005, 10:04:14 AM »
Isn't this the purpose of SACAD being created ? :?

I thought that SACAD is to create a system (incl SOP, computer, processes, staffing, SLA, etc) so that all four emergency services have the same call receipt and dispatch system as well as standard processes.

The process of call taking triage and action to be taken by the operator is the difficult item that SES are currently reviewing.

For example, if a person calls with a tree down on the ground tasking, no (gas water electricity) services involved and SES SCC answers the call, the caller will be advised to contact tree lopper contractors. Not an emergency call.

A sample computer system that I have seen (I work for a company who has responded to the tender) thus far would allow an SAAS or SAFECOM operator to select all services required (be that SAAS, SES, CFS, MFS) at the same time to be alerted.

This hopefully will stop the problem of telephoning the other service Operations Control Centre, repeating the incident details via the telephone and then crews of that service being alerted. How long does that process currently take ?

My personal experience is that the SAAS operators do a great job under high stress. They need to calm and advise the caller of medical conditions, triage, etc, etc. This assisted my wife during a family emergency when an ambulance was required.

Rather than turning this thread into a 'SAAS Caller dispatcher' bashing (which I personally think it is getting close to), how about we acknowledge problems exist and think of ways around the problem !! :|
Andrew Macmichael
lives at Pt Noarlunga South.

My personal opinion only.

Offline medevac

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,659
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: SAAS Responding Other Services..
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2005, 10:32:50 AM »
worth noting that SAAS call takers dont actually do the dispatch...

strikeathird

  • Guest
Re: SAAS Responding Other Services..
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2005, 10:36:45 AM »
Quote
Rather than turning this thread into a 'SAAS Caller dispatcher' bashing (which I personally think it is getting close to), how about we acknowledge problems exist and think of ways around the problem !!


Simple Solution = Dispatcher notifies Fire and Rescue + SAPOL.

Offline medevac

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,659
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: SAAS Responding Other Services..
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2005, 10:41:17 AM »
ithink youll find the prob can be everywhere so i agree no SAAS commcen bashing...

Offline CFS_Firey

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,250
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: SAAS Responding Other Services..
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2005, 02:07:24 PM »
I agree with James in that urban brigade call numbers would go through the roof. While I agree that fire cover should be responded to all MVA's, when the caller says that no one is trapped (Which they often do) Rescue shouldn't be responded. In my experience, SAAS do respond us "if there is even a sniff of something dangerous, any form of entrapment or encapsulation, or spillage".

Regarding the time it takes to respond the fire service, it's probably be a different issue all together, but SOC having to ring MFS to respond CFS brigades and MFS ringing SOC, is a major waste of time. :(

Quote
The number of calls a brigade gets now directly affects its funding.
I have to disagree with that. In my group, the biggest spenders aren't the busiest brigades, although the busier brigades perhaps need more funding...

Offline Mike

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,045
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: SAAS Responding Other Services..
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2005, 02:20:13 PM »
I have to disagree with that. In my group, the biggest spenders aren't the busiest brigades, although the busier brigades perhaps need more funding...

sorry let me clarify,

SAFECOM, attributes funding in relation to how may calls brigades get (on average) per year. How this is distributed amongst a group is a different story.

Offline medevac

  • Forum Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,659
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: SAAS Responding Other Services..
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2005, 02:23:39 PM »
While I agree that fire cover should be responded to all MVA's, when the caller says that no one is trapped (Which they often do) Rescue shouldn't be responded.

disagree completely.

rescue brigades arent always required purely because of presons trapped in cars... 9as strange as that sounds)

Fire AND Rescue should attend every vehicle accident... one shouldnt go without the other. as everyone says, they can always be given a stop call.

 

anything