Author Topic: 'Heavy' Rescue  (Read 37096 times)

sesroadcrashrescue

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Re: 'Heavy' Rescue
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2007, 12:23:17 AM »
our cutters and spreaders are 70 odd tone at the tip and are deamed "heavey rescue" or gear is bigger then eudunda nuri and hamley bridge we also have hte smaller cutters and spreaders however we dont use them if we have to do rescue we use the big ones cuts in to a VE quite nicely unlike nuri who broke there gear on a VE 

Offline Zippy

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Re: 'Heavy' Rescue
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2007, 10:16:06 AM »
Newer car's are being built with stronger framework material, so yes a lot of current RCR gear will have to be upgraded to suit.

Offline mack

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Re: 'Heavy' Rescue
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2007, 03:05:15 PM »
Your either Rapid Intervention or Heavy.


realistically these days i think its more a case of 'your either rescue or your not'..


the briagdes that carry rapid intervention, may have that gear and trained operators.. but according to the book there not rescue anyway...so they will always get responded with a full rescue brigade...

rapid intervention may get there first and get to work though...

Offline RescueHazmat

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Re: 'Heavy' Rescue
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2007, 03:25:57 PM »
our cutters and spreaders are 70 odd tone at the tip and are deamed "heavey rescue" or gear is bigger then eudunda nuri and hamley bridge we also have hte smaller cutters and spreaders however we dont use them if we have to do rescue we use the big ones cuts in to a VE quite nicely unlike nuri who broke there gear on a VE 

Which tools do you use? - Even Holmatro's brand new 4280 Spreaders have a max spreading force of 58,000lbs (26,083 kg) at the back of the tips...

sesroadcrashrescue

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Re: 'Heavy' Rescue
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2007, 03:33:02 PM »
i think we have lukus is our big gear im not sure i always get confused with the two sets of gear i know its not holmatro but i know that the cutting and spreding power is 70 tonne on the big gear and 27 tonne on the small gear the big gear is good but is heavy and takes alot of effort to use it just liffting the gear out of its cradel is hard work i have training tonight will have a look and get details   

Offline RescueHazmat

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Re: 'Heavy' Rescue
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2007, 03:36:27 PM »
Could be industrial spreaders... - But if not Holmatro I would guess Lukas or Hurst...
« Last Edit: August 23, 2007, 03:38:55 PM by RescueHazmat »

Offline 6739264

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Re: 'Heavy' Rescue
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2007, 04:20:40 PM »
I'd be interested to see what you're using, as well sesrcr, as as far as I know, Lukas have a single spreader spreading around 46tonne, or 101,000lbs but thats the highest spread force I've seen.... have you got really really old gear?

Unless you're talking about shears, in which 70tonne cutting force, ain't that special, Holmatro produce shears that have 94tonne cutting force, 70 is pretty average.


And yes, looked at FAG, Lukas, Hurst, TNT and Holmatro.
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Offline RescueHazmat

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Re: 'Heavy' Rescue
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2007, 04:48:01 PM »
Yeah sheers were my next question, I know of a Holmatro tool which has 208,000lbs cutting force (at the cutting notch).. - Believe its the 4050

Offline Alan (Big Al)

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Re: 'Heavy' Rescue
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2007, 04:48:38 PM »
As i said in previous posts, the standard lukas stuff that CFS bought was only one step down from the biggest they make and the cutting spreading force wasn't much more just an extra 5kgs of weight and a few extra cm's in opening width. I think we run ls 330 cutters can't remeber what the spreaders are.
Lt. Goolwa CFS

sesroadcrashrescue

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Re: 'Heavy' Rescue
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2007, 04:53:53 PM »
we have not come across any thing that we cant cut thru the ger is big heavy and a pian to use its only a year old we are one of seven SES RCR units that have this gear dont quote me on this but i think its mainly for trucks and buses etc thick and heavy frams they are not sheers the big gear is three times the size of our small gear

Offline Mike

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Re: 'Heavy' Rescue
« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2007, 05:04:19 PM »
All standard SES Hydraulic gear is rated to 35T. Selected units have had the cutters upgraded to 70T to deal with the VE Commodore (pillars). This will be expanded as funds allow. Spreaders currently have no need to be replaced. as hinges have not been upgraded.

However, units that have been upgraded are not refered to any differently than those carrying 35T gear.

Offline RescueHazmat

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Re: 'Heavy' Rescue
« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2007, 09:19:17 PM »
So my question is still current.. What type/model of spreading tools are giving you 70 TON of spreading force at the tips, sesrcr ? .. And what Hydraulic pump are you running?

Offline chook

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Re: 'Heavy' Rescue
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2007, 09:06:43 PM »
Short answer is none. SES RCR units are issued the Lukas LSP40 EN spreaders.Spreading force up to 230(51,700)kN(lbs), Squeezing force (with squeezing attachment) up to 110(24,700)kN(lbs). The confusion comes from the new issue Cutters that have been issued to some units. They are the Lukas 501 EN cutters, they have a Cutting force up to 680 (152,900) kN (lbs)i.e 70 Tonnes. Units are issued their major equipment by state HQ & the above equipment plus a Trimo pump & LZR 12 Ram. This equipment plus the Stabfast stabilization gear is the standard issue for SES RCR units however please note that not all units have this gear yet due to the costs. I was fortunate enough to have been part of the unit which trialled this gear, houses the Road Crash training truck & the controller is a lead trainer and member of the RCR subject matter advisory group. The SMAG settled on the above equipment level (personally I find the 501 cutters a bit of overkill for the unit I'm now in charge of - if I needed the heavy cutters just need to call one of the three neighbouring units, but you never knock anything back). We also have back up sets of various kinds. In closing it would be great if people check their facts prior to making such statements as it is embarrassing for our service. Hope this clears up any mis information RescueHazmat & Mundcfs I personally think the LS330's are great (I might actually have a set on my quick response - I did say might :-D) cheers
 
Ken
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Offline RescueHazmat

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Re: 'Heavy' Rescue
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2007, 10:24:37 PM »
Thanks for clearing that up Chook..

You said it in one with 
Quote
In closing it would be great if people check their facts prior to making such statements as it is embarrassing for our service.
.. - For the last month I assumed that SESRCR units all had 70 ton (capable) tools..  - Again, thanks for the clear up!

Offline vr_driver

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Re: 'Heavy' Rescue
« Reply #39 on: February 02, 2008, 10:33:32 PM »
I would have thought they term 'heavy rescue' would be given to units/brigades that could lift trains and things with 100t rams etc.

Offline chook

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Re: 'Heavy' Rescue
« Reply #40 on: February 02, 2008, 10:52:47 PM »
Its an old term to seperate RCR teams that had combitools instead of "proper" RCR equipment(spreaders, cutters, rams).
Some CFS & MFS  trucks carry combitools as part of their RIT(fire) kit, but under the RCR directory they don't count as a RCR resource.
Therefore if your unit/brigade/station does not have cutters, spreaders and ram then you are not equipped to do primary RCR response. However its not enforced across the 3 services as rigidly as it should.
It has been an on going topic of discussion, by the way SESSA used to refer to Heavy rescue as the type of rescue that required more than you can carry on your back!
If you come over here you will get used to all of this stuff (the green book - RCR directory).
Not sure about Central region but most of East region has Lukas Trimo, 501 Cutters, 44 Spreaders and either a short ram or both a short & long ram, Stabfast stabilisers & other gear including recipros.
Hope this helps cheers
Ken
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uniden

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Re: 'Heavy' Rescue
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2008, 09:40:13 AM »
Some MFS stations are designated as secondary rescue for cetain towns. Some of these are only equipped with a combi tool and maybe a set of cutters. When these tools get used for jobs they are not designed for and hence maybe get damaged, there is a please explain. There are of course times when there are multiple MVA`s or multiple entrapments. The worm is starting to turn though and some newer, heavier gear is starting to filter through.

Offline chook

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Re: 'Heavy' Rescue
« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2008, 10:27:36 AM »
Good as I have said previously in other posts, my secondary response is SAMFS however the gear they have doesn't meet the standard. So in my mind if secondary response is required I would call the closest SES unit as I know they have the gear & people.
If however all I need is more people then I would consider SAMFS, sadly however this may cause a whole heap of problems politically that I would need to consider(would they use this as ammunition against us?, would their CFS counterparts get upset calling SAMFS to assist in a CFS area? Would my counterparts get upset calling SAMFS to assist instead of them?). Unfortunately the area covered by the local SAMFS station is tiny & in the past the 3 local organisations didn't play nice. This is changing however, so if they get new pumps, spreaders & cutters instead of rapid intervention gear then it would be a no brainer, use SAMFS as they meet the standard & are the closest resource - so I would have to follow the directory wouldn't I? :wink:
The other solution is of course delist them from the directory, which would be cheaper. We don't do a lot of extracations here, we are mainly backup for the other towns so I guess someone would really need to look at each station on a case by case basis before committing more expensive equipment to a particular area.
Thanks for the info though & hopefully the answers will be known soon :wink:
cheers
Ken
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Offline SA Firey

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Re: 'Heavy' Rescue
« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2008, 10:57:21 AM »
The solution to superior cutting performance is partially determined by the blades of the equipment. Tool design and power however play an important role too. Holmatro therefore has extended the NCT II cutter range with its strongest and best performing hydraulic cutter for rescuers: the CU 4050 C NCT™ II. This rescue tool is equipped with NCT™ II blades, suitable for the newest car models and prototypes. The CU 4050 C NCT™ II has a cutting capacity of 95 tons and cuts 41 mm round bar. It weighs only 17.4 kg and is equipped with i-Bolt technology, with integrated lighting in the carrying handle and with CORE™ Technology, a turning point in speed, ease and safety when it comes to operating hydraulic rescue tools.

Frequently asked questions http://www.holmatro-rescue.com/Faq/Faq.aspx?ItemId=1188
 
Are hydraulic rescue tools equally suitable for left- and right-handed people?
 
What should I pay special attention to when comparing different brands of hydraulic spreaders? Many brochures state very high spreading forces.
 
How can I measure the maximum cutting force in kN of a hydraulic cutter or combitool?
 
In practice, what does a cutting force in kN really tell me?
 
I often find statements from manufacturers concerning the thickness of round bar or flat bar their tools cut. How do I know a tool really cuts what the manufacturer claims it can cut?
 
Often the specifications of cutters and combitools state the thickness of material profiles the tool can cut, e.g. 32 mm round bar. On what materials should these cutting values be based?
 
When I buy new hydraulic rescue tools, what do I have to pay attention to regarding new car technologies?
 
What international norms should I look out for when deciding on the purchase of new rescue equipment?
 
What does CE have to do with the new European norm for hydraulic rescue equipment?
 
Why are there so many different blade types for cutters, e.g. straight blades, parrot type blades or straight blades with a curved tip?
 
When a tool is pressurised, is it safe to put it on the ground?
 
Is it possible to disconnect tools without switching off the pump?

With the advent of dual stage airbags it is no longer safe to presume an airbag is safe purely due to the fact that it has detonated before arrival. With dual-stage airbags, the magnitude of the impact determines the amount of gas released. The opportunity now exists that airbags may well still re-detonate with a second amount of gas later during rescue efforts.

 

« Last Edit: February 03, 2008, 11:04:28 AM by SA Firey »
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uniden

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Re: 'Heavy' Rescue
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2008, 11:03:04 AM »
In some locations taking the MFS out of the resource for rescue is not really an option. There are places where the SES are primary rescue, MFS secondary and the next nearest CFS/SES rescue is 50 plus km away.

Offline SA Firey

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Re: 'Heavy' Rescue
« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2008, 11:07:47 AM »
The RCRD is based on Heavy Rescue and not appliances with RIV tools,but any resources which are closer can at least make a start to effect a rescue prior to arrival of Heavy Rescue
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Offline backburn

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Re: 'Heavy' Rescue
« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2008, 11:24:01 AM »
would their CFS counterparts get upset calling SAMFS to assist in a CFS area?


Chook if the CFS are called in for Fire cover in there area and you needed extra resources for Rescue  then possable there could  be possable  no problem, also you will need to speak to them out there and see.

Offline chook

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Re: 'Heavy' Rescue
« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2008, 11:38:58 AM »
Yep understand that, that is why a station by station needs audit is required.
Up here that is not an issue, we have as some might say an over supply of heavy cutting/spreading equipment. Its just not under a fire service control, thats why I have started a new thread on the Victorian way of doing things.
Other stations would of course have a need, it is the same as the second response SES units in SAMFS/CFS areas. Do they have the right gear?, are they adequately trained?
SA Firey I can't answer all of your questions:-
I do know the new Lukas coupling connects & disconnects at full pressure (I've played with it).
Yes there is a difference between blades:- some very experienced Vollie RCR people in SES don't like my LS330 cutters (they call them USAR cutters). Yet PT hydraulics say there is nothing wrong with them for the type of work we do.
I actually was happy to keep my other 330's instead of getting 501's (send the 501's to a more needy unit was my response).
The parrot beak (501)is supposed to draw the material into the pivot bolt where the most force is generated. They (330 & 501's) do perform differently, I find the 501's tend to "twist" more, however the serrated edge on the 330's can cause jamming - not often but I have had it happen (pivot bolt was a at the correct torque).
The bar is a standard material - steel, what the standard is I don't know :-(
Lukas do make a rotating handle for their cutters(its an extra)
Our service actually tested the 501's on some of the new technology stuff - as we don't have lots of money we can't afford to make mistakes.
The answers to a lot of the questions you ask can be found with in the Lukas/Hurst operating manuals. I'm not sure why we use Lukas instead of Holmatro, can't be pricing :wink: And finally I would swap my 330's for a set of LKS35 EN combitool as my back up set or even better keep my 330's as well :-D
Like everything I guess its horses for courses - but I haven't come across anything that Lukas can't handle.
Great questions
On the question of would there be conflict - don't know thats why it was a question, however there has been issues in the past hopefully we have all moved on.
Yep of course a start can be made (refer to the Victorian solution), however if the second response is listed in the RCRD then shouldn't be equipped with the same standard of equipment?
cheers
Ken
just another retard!

Offline 6739264

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Re: 'Heavy' Rescue
« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2008, 11:45:18 AM »
SA Firey... The point of the choppy re post of Holmatro CU 4050 specs and the FAQ is lost on me...

Everyone seems to look on Combi Tools as the devil, yet for most Car/light truck accidents that are straightforward (EG: A huge proportion of normal rescue work) they do the job fine.

Give me a Combi Tool, ram + extension tube and you can open a car up fine. Door removal, roof flaps/removal, dash rolls, third door conversions, etc etc, are all possible.[

Some CFS & MFS  trucks carry combitools as part of their RIT(fire) kit, but under the RCR directory they don't count as a RCR resource.

The fire appliances that carry RIK gear do so as a stop gap measure for RCR coverage. Some areas (CFS) that have a high number of vehicle accidents have a Rescue resource with other nearby brigade carrying RIK equipment. As for MFS I believe its so that they can effect extractions while their rescue appliances are otherwise engaged.

Don't get RCR Rapid Intervention and Structure fire Rapid Intervention Teams confused. Slightly (or VERY) different things. Combi tools and the like are primarily for RCR but have a plethora of other uses in everyday firefighting and rescue. No need to get tunnel vision about equipment usage ;)
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Offline SA Firey

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Re: 'Heavy' Rescue
« Reply #49 on: February 03, 2008, 12:05:54 PM »
SA Firey... The point of the choppy re post of Holmatro CU 4050 specs and the FAQ is lost on me...

Chook and 6739264, the post was adding to the topic about strength of tools etc, and yes a combi tool will do the work quite nicely like Stirling's Hurst gear while I was there. Th FAQ are not my queries but for the info of any others who want some answers.I have been a member of an RCR brigade :wink:
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