Author Topic: Awesome new hypothetical (Read 34562 times)

Big Yellow Gongbeater · « **on:** November 04, 2006, 02:03:57 PM »

Hey here's a hypothetical for you all.

A discussion about practical and functional fire appliances that meet the requirments of the SA Country Fire Service, without some gongbeater ranting, raving and generally crapping on about Scania's, Type 3 pumpers, Sky Jets, Bronto's, La Frances etc.
I'm betting it can't be done. Someone just won't be able to help themselves

Pipster · « **Reply #1 on:** November 04, 2006, 02:49:02 PM »

As a start, needs to be a twin cab chassis, and if we are talking rural appliances, it needs to be 4 wd.

And I don't care what make

Pip

Camo · « **Reply #2 on:** November 04, 2006, 02:55:01 PM »

I know your just trying to stir the pot but hey what the hell.

I believe the CFS need to reevaluate how they are going to build there appliances as it would seem the izuzu/hino chassis are at there limits.

Whether that means splitting the duties up onto more than one appliance (costly) or building a more specialised truck/appliance along the lines of a fireking (not a fireking exactly but a specialised appliance)

The current rescue appliances like Naracoortes seem to be adequate but it seems the rural side of things needs to looked at. Urban appliances like the type 2 or maybe something a bit more powerful like the CFA mark 5 pumpers seems to be all we need.

To generalise i think its time the CFS needs to split the roles up onto seperate appliances so we can do our jobs safely and efficiently.

Is this banging the gong?

Camo · « **Reply #3 on:** November 04, 2006, 02:56:02 PM »

Quote from: pipster on November 04, 2006, 02:49:02 PM

As a start, needs to be a twin cab chassis, and if we are talking rural appliances, it needs to be 4 wd.

And I don't care what make

Pip

Maybe instead of 1 large 34 we should have 3 14's?

bittenyakka · « **Reply #4 on:** November 04, 2006, 06:59:26 PM »

No 3 14s per brigade woulld result in various brigades responding 3 trucks with 2 people per appliance.

I suggest either giving each brigade an urban pumper type appliance and a appliance about the size of the current 24s for rural jobs.

or just make give 24p/34p bigger pumps that work better at high pressure so they actauly have a good pumping capacity.

Ryan · « **Reply #5 on:** November 04, 2006, 07:26:44 PM »

for rural jobs you need a 34 just for the extra 1000l of water. i wouldnt even mind having 3.54 just for extra h2O.

I saw in WA they have urban/rural appliances, that thing looks alright. Dunno how it compares to a 34P though.

Big Yellow Gongbeater · « **Reply #6 on:** November 04, 2006, 07:44:18 PM »

Quote from: bittenyakka on November 04, 2006, 06:59:26 PM

No 3 14s per brigade woulld result in various brigades responding 3 trucks with 2 people per appliance.

I suggest either giving each brigade an urban pumper type appliance and a appliance about the size of the current 24s for rural jobs.

or just make give 24p/34p bigger pumps that work better at high pressure so they actauly have a good pumping capacity.

MMMM getting close to gongbeating there, ask yourself this question if it's all about high pressure and pumping capacity.
An Akron 1720/1725 series branch (the most common in SACFS service) has a maximum flow rate of ?(how many L per minute) at its maximum (optimal) pressure of 700kpa?
The answer will let you see that crapping on about increased pressures and pump capacities is a dead end argument as any CFS pumper can handle the required flow rate and pressure for 2 lines 2 lengths.

Big Yellow Gongbeater · « **Reply #7 on:** November 04, 2006, 07:53:19 PM »

Oops comp meltdown

Well peeps going well keep it going, and remember don't be a Gongbeater

Pipster · « **Reply #8 on:** November 04, 2006, 08:08:42 PM »

Quote from: Ryan on November 04, 2006, 07:26:44 PM

for rural jobs you need a 34 just for the extra 1000l of water. i wouldnt even mind having 3.54 just for extra h2O.

Whether you prefer a 24 or a 34 depends on what area you are in...in my area, the 34's can't physically fit in places that the 24's go (and sometimes the 24's don't physically fit where 14's will)

So any appliance(s) allocations need to have some regard to local needs..... one size doesn't fit all!!!

Ryan · « **Reply #9 on:** November 04, 2006, 09:02:48 PM »

Hang on, arent 24's and 34's the same size but one with a smaller tank? The older style ones are built on the same chassis arent they?

Darius · « **Reply #10 on:** November 05, 2006, 07:32:42 AM »

the old 34's used to be yes, but the new ones are a fair bit bigger than the 24s, eg:
http://www.fire-brigade.asn.au/Station_Display.asp?Service_Code=SACFS&Station_Code=IRBK

I don't think my brigade has a need for a pumper, we have no mains water in our area and no boosting to do. The 24 is the right size most of the time and the 14 is good for the tight spots as Pip mentioned. Backup is not far away for more water.

I think the CFS need to recognise that you can't have say 2 of 3 types of trucks that will cover everything. Plus since the CFS doesn't buy 500 trucks in one hit they buy then in dribs and drabs you can't "standardise" as when you want to buy more they won't be available anymore.

Ryan · « **Reply #11 on:** November 05, 2006, 09:51:54 AM »

arent CFS gonna standardise the fleet with a 14 and a 34 only, no 24's.

5271rescue · « **Reply #12 on:** November 05, 2006, 01:11:45 PM »

Why not get a grant so as we can place one bulk order...

TillerMan · « **Reply #13 on:** November 05, 2006, 05:03:36 PM »

Beater, what about if you need to boost? 34P couldn't do 4in and 4 out. Or in some areas you may need to use a ground monitor and multiple 64mm hoses which a 34P won't handle.

bittenyakka · « **Reply #14 on:** November 05, 2006, 05:54:29 PM »

and it isn't uncommon to run a 64 or two up a driveway then split them. (I know it is not ideal)

Pipster · « **Reply #15 on:** November 05, 2006, 05:58:21 PM »

It's uncommon in my area.....don't recall the last time we had to do that....

I think we've wandered off topic......

Perhaps we can look at a 24 / 34 generally rural appliance......what set up should we have on one of those appliances?

Pip

bittenyakka · « **Reply #16 on:** November 05, 2006, 06:20:08 PM »

well that is currently what we have a truck that is good size resonable range of hoses and equipment but it is largely based arount fighting rural fires. Personaly the trap is with trucks like 24p/34p that are marketed implied to be caperble for heaby urban work get given or put on the list for brigades like Morphet vale and Burnside.

2090 · « **Reply #17 on:** November 05, 2006, 10:22:23 PM »

Why not split the appliance needs into three parts?

Rural:
14/24/34
Depending on the size requirements of the area. You may as well drop the designation of 'P' and just build all the damn appliances with a bigger pump.

Urban:
Light Pumper (eg: Current 12's)
Medium Pumper (Current SACFS NSWFB Type 2 Pumpers)
Heavy Pumper (Akin to the MFB or SAMFS Scanias)

Specialist:
Specifically designed Rescue appliances, with large stowage, PTO driven Pumps/Generators
Specifically designed Hazmat appliances, EG: State Hazmat, maybe another one out in the sticks.

Then for each brigade, you draw fom a mix of these. Brigades that have Rural/Urban risk? Then maybe 24 and a medium pumper. Brigades like Barker? Maybe a Heavy+Light Pumper and a 34? A busy RCR brigade? Then a specialist stand alone rescue.

Of course if for example a birgade carries Minimum RCR gear, then throw it on another truck. etc etc

bittenyakka · « **Reply #18 on:** November 06, 2006, 11:57:48 AM »

that is good

But i have a feeling that CFS would just give everyone Rural stuff.

I Dont think the problem revolves arouund our caperbilities but around somone who tries to cut costs by putting multipule roles on appliances and sacrificing both functions.

I suggest making

a new version of current 12s
for urban work and are small so the fit up hills drivways and using current 34s for rural.

fire03rescue · « **Reply #19 on:** November 06, 2006, 12:58:54 PM »

I would like to see Rescue appliances that can also be used for firefighting not just rescue ( have a pump with 2000 litres).
The main reason in some areas in is hard to get 1 appliance in the day to calls, so if you only have 4 ff you can just take one appliance ( and have firefighting if needed until back up arrives)

TillerMan · « **Reply #20 on:** November 06, 2006, 01:45:22 PM »

I think you hit the nail on the head in regards to crews, cfs are trying to build an appliance that can do everything because of crew shortages which i think the 34p's are very good for. The problem lies in just a few brigades that have alot of crew and alot of risks but are not getting the equipment to do this job. Some bigger brigades should have an extra 24 so that they can send 1 to a strike team but still have sufficient cover for their area or neighbouring areas who may have also sent a crew away.

I think everyone will be very impressed with the new 34's as they have twice the locker space and i am very jealous of anyone that is getting one.

CFS_Firey · « **Reply #21 on:** November 06, 2006, 02:11:01 PM »

Alternatively, perhaps the CFS could have standard 'modules' for all appliances that brigades can choose from. That is, a set of standard pumps (of different pumping capacity), standard tank sizes, standard locker set ups etc. Then when brigades need a new truck, they can re-evaluate their area and "build" a truck with the specs they need... (Ie, we have this booster, so we need this sized pump, heaps of mains water, so only 2000L tank, a Hazmat brigade, so a Hazmat locker etc).

I'm not sure if that is possible, but it would fix the problems of brigades being left with the "best fit" appliance that doesn't really cover what they need, while at the same time having standards across the fleet...

Tillerman, when you say the new 34s, do you mean the yet-to-be-released Hinos?

bittenyakka · « **Reply #22 on:** November 06, 2006, 05:52:16 PM »

Great Idea CFS_Firey the local vollies know the area best
but
Wouldn't that make it an absolute nightmare if you ended up on a unfamilar truck on a strike team.

5271rescue · « **Reply #23 on:** November 06, 2006, 06:42:20 PM »

True local members know what they need time they where aloud to have a say on what there area needed,also I dont see the need for a rescue units to have a water/pump if that was to happen CFS would say now you have you a extra pump in your station.... I have seen it before rescue pumper is at a going job crew are paged for rescue have to remove all rescue crew and go in command car.....remember we dont have back up here around the block....

fire03rescue · « **Reply #24 on:** November 07, 2006, 06:15:29 AM »

So what happens if you take your rescue appliance (no pump) to a job and you only have 4 or 5 ff go to the call with 1 driver and you get to the job any you need fire protection or worse the car is on fire

I think it is better to have a multipurpose fire appliance.