Author Topic: Task Force Complaints  (Read 39589 times)

Offline 5271rescue

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Re: Task Force Complaints
« Reply #75 on: January 15, 2007, 07:12:35 AM »
may be its time for a review or update away from the T CARD system and once again we see strike teams rolling up and no one was aware they were coming along....We must have passed you pommy as you guys were coming into the staging area we were going home..A nice 4 hour drive.....
blinky bill
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Offline Darius

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Re: Task Force Complaints
« Reply #76 on: January 15, 2007, 08:04:06 AM »
In contrast, Friday night had not much to do, but all crews were kept busy. I feel the night went really well! These were the last strike teams into the area.

Had a thermal imager walking the edge to identify any spots of concern.

so you were there too then, I went Wed evening (initial response) then friday night shift.  For the friday, apart from a fairly long hanging around at Kangarilla before being sent out we did useful work all night.

Offline Mike

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Re: Task Force Complaints
« Reply #77 on: January 15, 2007, 08:14:45 AM »
That i was.... Best part is we got to go home early ;) Hard work does have some benifits. hehe

Was there wed night (0000 - 0900)..... they sent us to do asset protection 5Kms from the fire front.... fire was never going to reach that point! 3Hrs later, and a brief question from IMT about what we were doing and where we were doing it, found us re-tasked to gate 32. were kept happily occupied from that point forth...

Offline Pipster

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Re: Task Force Complaints
« Reply #78 on: January 15, 2007, 09:39:06 AM »
While there were a number of complaints from the fire ground (and many deserved ones...) there are also things that the IMT have problems with...like Strike team leaders / Sector commanders, deciding that they don't like the channels they have been given, so they just go ahead and pick their own.....  that creates problems for the IMT......

I am not sure who requested all the strike teams form all over the state, but it would seem someone got a bit excited, and called in the world...and then had a number of them sitting around for considerable time doing nothing...  :-(

It is always a difficult thing to balance - having enough appliances vs too many.....

Pip

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Offline 5271rescue

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Re: Task Force Complaints
« Reply #79 on: January 15, 2007, 10:16:01 AM »
Pip,
         what should have taken place with all the incoming strike teams is that they should have been sent to areas on the fireground where local crews had been hard at work.local crews should have been stood down for a good rest rather than change them over and send the appliances with a fresh crew out... was it a over kill or just this is going to be the norm after the black Tuesday fire... happy to come and help but crews need to be put to good use rather than sit around or do things that the local farmer could have been doing....MY VIEW ONLY... IMT is only as good as the flow of information up and down but only as good as the IC.......
blinky bill
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Offline littlejohn

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Re: Task Force Complaints
« Reply #80 on: January 15, 2007, 03:46:35 PM »
An interesting point Pip. Are strike teams called in all too readily sometimes?

Certainly a question which got a good thrashing in our truck on the way up & back (we were wondering if the Lofty area crews were calling us in for payback, in regard to the trip they took to the south east for the Burrungle fire - arrived on the fire ground at 1900, spent the night trying to pick out the best christmas tree and went home the next day, as I understand it).

There seems to have been a pretty ordinary response from R5 to strike team requests of late. I'd like to say that people are always willing to help another region, but maybe that's not the case. If crews are going to travel for hours, do they want to feel like they're doing worthwhile & required work? (Oh yes, I know mopping up is worthwhile & required, but it's not quite as exciting or educational!)

I know our crews felt pretty shabby to leave the Lofty strike team to the night shift (when they came to the SE), when we'd only been on the fire ground for about 7 hours, nor had any suggestion been made of us organising our own relief crews.

I've not been part of an IMT so don't know the workings and don't wish to criticise, just a bit of discussion.

Offline mattb

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Re: Task Force Complaints
« Reply #81 on: January 16, 2007, 12:45:02 PM »
Stopcallking - which Division were you in on Thursday night, I was in the DivCom car that handed over to the incoming DivCom at around midnight - I did feel for him a bit as he had not seen the lay of the land in daylight and those tracks around the Mt Bold land are like a rabbit warren.

There is still no reason not to get people out working though, when we left the guys were waiting for the fire to come out into grassland - not sure if it ever did.

Offline Pipster

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Re: Task Force Complaints
« Reply #82 on: January 16, 2007, 02:53:54 PM »
I was in the IMT on Thursday night, and wasn't part of the organising of strike teams / crews at that time (relief crews had already been arranged.)

We were certainly very conscious of strike teams being giving something meaningful to do when they went out that next morning, and not just sitting around for hours and being fobbed off when they ask for something to do.....

As for strike teams being called / not called - it is always a balance between too many appliances, and not enough.... and it can be a very difficult thing to determine sometimes

Pip
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Offline Alan J

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Re: Task Force Complaints
« Reply #83 on: January 16, 2007, 10:52:49 PM »
Stopcallking - which Division were you in on Thursday night, I was in the DivCom car that handed over to the incoming DivCom at around midnight - I did feel for him a bit as he had not seen the lay of the land in daylight and those tracks around the Mt Bold land are like a rabbit warren.

There is still no reason not to get people out working though, when we left the guys were waiting for the fire to come out into grassland - not sure if it ever did.

In Pocock ?Sector?
Arrived Kanga by 19:00 with express instructions to be fed & watered before arrival, for immediate tasking. (Beauty!)  Sat at Kanga without tasking nor any hope (it seemed) of tasking while various officers & respected personages wandered around swearing about the complete lack of A Plan for the night. Some of whom have the direct ear of the CO, I might add.

The arrangements at Kanga were excellent by the way. An apparent surfeit of T-cards compared with appliances or strike teams, but... <shrug>   

Then around 2030, a break-out up at Pocock forced something to happen.
It seemed all the 30-odd appliances at Kanga were responded to the break-out, which we could hear being controlled as we drove.  Also discovered while we drove that the VHF channel allocated to us (VHF-020 I think) *as confirmed by two in my appliance who were at the "response briefing"* is in our mobiles but NOT our portables... Very useful that !  Heard later that in the rush to respond, the incoming DivCom was left behind at Kanga.

Arrived at Pocock on dusk & sat by the side of the road for about an hour. STL directed us onto VHF-055 after negotiation with Sector/Div Command (I assume).
Then we drove drove out into a paddock & waited until 0200 for a backburn that hadn't been lit to come out to us. Lovely clear skies.  Lots of satelites & shooting stars.

And a few appliances just over the next rise doing useful things. Many fewer than were parked & idle within 300M of us anyway.

And we were fed.  I cannot fault the logistics side of things at any stage of Wednesday or Thursday.  Absolutely brilliant.  Water, fuel, foam, food, repairs.  Whatever.  Supplied in abundance as, when, & where needed.   :-D

About 0200 we were directed to some short grass to control the northern end of the burn that was about to be lit. Nothing much happened there for a while so we had a game of cricket by headlight & light masts.  8-)

Then at 0230, a swag of DEH vehicles turned up to do the burn, & we sere sent away further north to black out whatever was left of that edge of the break-out 6 hours earlier.  There wasn't much left of it - few smouldering stumps well inside the black.  The crews before us had done a very good job indeed.

By 0430, that was blacked to 100M in from the edge... yes - 3 full hose lengths.  DivCom couldn't give us any further work & wouldn't release us.  Which was doubly frustrating because there was so much crying out to be done. So we kipped until 0645 then headed back to Kanga.  The three brigade captains on my S/T (that I know of - it was a composite team) - immediately contacted their Group Officers & advised them that their brigades would not participate any further in that fire.  Period.  :x

A bit of an ati-climax after Wednesday afternoon/evening.  And a shocking waste of a lot of peoples' time given that there was something like 30km of edge needing black-out, and 40km of roads needing making safe from falling trees.  As I understand it, our STL offered us to do both of these things & was knocked back.  :|

So yes, sour grapes.  Was a completely useless zombie at work Friday for no good reason other than "we were there".  :x

cheers
Alan J.
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Offline fire03rescue

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Re: Task Force Complaints
« Reply #84 on: January 17, 2007, 07:50:47 AM »
But you guys had a good cricket game and was a bit of fun.
Poor planing on the night, I hate it when you have been at work all day then go out at night to do nothing. For the safety of crews you should be released about midnight being up for 24 hours is dangerous

Offline Firefrog

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Re: Task Force Complaints
« Reply #85 on: January 17, 2007, 09:38:23 AM »
It always amuses me how often we whine about not being tasked but just sit there waiting. I have seen this happen over and over again.
Why not be proactive and request a tasking. IMT may have overlooked your team in all the busyness. It's not hard to get on the command GRN and get answers.

Now some people do this well I have heard it being done with rational explanations given of the delays.
It really is pointless to arrive and sit on your hands waiting and waiting and saying nothing.

Be part of the solution!

Offline bajdas

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Re: Task Force Complaints
« Reply #86 on: January 17, 2007, 09:47:49 AM »
may be its time for a review or update away from the T CARD system and once again we see strike teams rolling up and no one was aware they were coming along....

For my curiosity, which Ops group were completing CFS Resource tracking and thus the T-Cards at Mt Bold Fires.

Within SES, we had problems running two vehicles from Mawson (meal runs for CFS) and the other six vehicles (Property surveys for SAPOL) from Kangarilla. This is currently being reviewed.

I assume the T-Cards were kept at the Kangarilla Staging area via CFS Region 1 Ops vehicle. But I thought (& this could where I am wrong), the Fire attack was run from Mawson Region base at Morphett Vale.

If my assumption is correct above, then the T-Card information would need to be transferred from Kangarilla to Mawson. Even if this was just at the Strike Team level of information, not individual people information.

This post is not a critism, just trying to learn an Ops system different to the one I normally use.
Andrew Macmichael
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Offline Camo

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Re: Task Force Complaints
« Reply #87 on: January 17, 2007, 12:08:40 PM »
Spent new years eve at the Little Desert Fire north of Naracoorte.  Drove 2.5 hours to get there got told there is no water available so waste your tank of water and go home!  Very annoying!

Meanwhile in my opinion the control lines that were in place werent sufficient as there was a lot of fire activity at the control edge and it wouldnt have taken much to jump the lines.  So instead of doing the job properly and mopping up at least 30 metres in from the lines we pissed on a couple of fence posts, stopped a small flare up and went home.

From the radio chatter we heard on the way up we were never required and they didnt know we were coming until we were nearly there.
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Offline Pipster

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Re: Task Force Complaints
« Reply #88 on: January 17, 2007, 12:19:55 PM »
This is certainly a problem that keeps rearing its head - strike teams arrive, but one or some or all of the following - Incident Controller / Ops officer / Div Commander / Sector Commander aren't aware they are coming.

Sometimes, Region has organised strike teams, without the knowledge of the Incident Controller, hence none knows they are coming until they arrive and find there is no work for them, or there is a communications break down somewhere in the chain.....   :|
There are three types of people in the world.  Those that watch things happen, those who make things happen, and those who wonder what happened.

Offline Firefrog

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Re: Task Force Complaints
« Reply #89 on: January 17, 2007, 01:16:21 PM »
I was recently talking with a DGO who was a strike team leader, they arrived at a job with no tasking so they helped themselves. Attached them selves to a sector commander and started mopping up.

Although not strictly according to the rules it certainly got the troops out working! And achieved a result.

Offline Camo

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Re: Task Force Complaints
« Reply #90 on: January 17, 2007, 02:55:47 PM »

Sometimes, Region has organised strike teams, without the knowledge of the Incident Controller, hence none knows they are coming until they arrive and find there is no work for them, or there is a communications break down somewhere in the chain.....   :|

This is the biggest problem i believe.  Why they cant they communicate with the IMT on the ground before doing this i dont know.
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Offline Firefrog

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Re: Task Force Complaints
« Reply #91 on: January 17, 2007, 03:16:49 PM »
scared of legal/political/career implications if the question is asked "why didn't you send enough resources?"

They have probably been told to send everyone and ask questions later.

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Re: Task Force Complaints
« Reply #92 on: January 17, 2007, 03:39:27 PM »
Of all the s/t's i've been on, ive had varying success

murray bridge 12/05 - very good
KI 10/06 - not very good
Harrogate 12/06 - ok
onka 12/06 - not very good
mt bold 01/07 - good

Murray bridge was very good, I don't think I could fault it at all except for the really rough track out that was only kinda drivable.

KI had problems galore. I voiced them elsewhere on this site, and there were too many, so i won't repeat them.

Harrogate was one of thowse ones where you get there and they don't really have anything for you to do. we blacked out for about 3 hours, ate, did the perimeter and went home. Still alright, and the food was okay.

Onka was so so. The main problem I had was food. a cold big mac and small chips at 3am isn't really great sustanance. it filled a hole though i suppose. The worst thing was that there wasn't enough for the 4-5 trucks that rocked up, which i don't think was very good.

Mt bold was fine. good supplies of everything. we didn't eat out there but i think that was cause we were initial response. either way that didn't bother me all that much.

So I've had a mixed bag. KI was the worst, and mundcfs can vouch on that for me.

Offline Alan (Big Al)

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Re: Task Force Complaints
« Reply #93 on: January 17, 2007, 04:06:02 PM »
Yes, yes i can :-)
Lt. Goolwa CFS

probie_boy

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Re: Task Force Complaints
« Reply #94 on: January 17, 2007, 04:36:13 PM »

Offline Camo

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Re: Task Force Complaints
« Reply #95 on: January 17, 2007, 07:20:33 PM »
scared of legal/political/career implications if the question is asked "why didn't you send enough resources?"

They have probably been told to send everyone and ask questions later.

Thats all well and good but we have IMT for a reason and it only takes a few minutes in inform them on the ground that they are inbound, that way if they are not needed they can then be turned around before anyone gets too annoyed.

If we keep pissing the firefighters off they arent going to come back.  Down here in Region 5 its getting hard enough to get crews onto strike teams let alone sending them there and pissing them off!
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Offline bittenyakka

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Re: Task Force Complaints
« Reply #96 on: January 17, 2007, 09:36:04 PM »
well I was on a strike team that someone had assumed had gone home but we were actauly left out on the fire ground.

Offline JC

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Re: Task Force Complaints
« Reply #97 on: January 17, 2007, 11:26:13 PM »
Go on a Task force to Ngarkat in the murry mallee, you havnt been on a bad taskforce till you go to one there. We got stuck on the fire ground for 28hours plus the 3.5 hr drive up there. No food or water for the whole time, water for the unit was a two hr return trip and the staging area was 70kms away. Fun, not.
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Offline Pipster

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Re: Task Force Complaints
« Reply #98 on: January 18, 2007, 08:22:13 AM »
If this is the place I am thinking about, the IMT were calling & calling the appliances who had been out on the fire ground for way too long, but the appliance(s) wouldn't answer for several hours...and eventually wandered back to the staging area, complaining about being out there too long!

One thing that has been stressed to Sector Commanders (at least in Region 1 - I would hope elsewhere too) - if you are out on the fireground, and think you have been forgotten - eg no food, not task, been out on the fireground for too long etc, then CALL UP on the radio and say so!!!

Things get chaotic at all levels of a fire - and when you are trying to keep track of 30 or 40 appliances, sometimes things get overlooked.

Crews, and in particular Sector commanders & Strike team leaders need to be a bit proactive in their behaviour!!

Pip
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Offline CaptCom

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Re: Task Force Complaints
« Reply #99 on: January 18, 2007, 09:41:14 AM »
if you all want to know how hard it can be tracking resources, next time you are a reasonable sized incident...practice keeping track of 5 appliances..ie your span of control....then if you think that's easy...which it can be if you have good sector commanders etc...take on another strike team...

I agree with Pip's comments...I've been on both ends of the scheme...it's all about communications...and it's also about using the chain of command for comms..and being disciplined with tasking...finished, call in, going for water, call in, need food or supplies, call in...don't just wander off and do your own thing...