SA Firefighter
General Discussion => SA Firefighter General => Topic started by: mack on December 20, 2007, 05:49:07 AM
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We have had to start using our siren at night as members are not around....
hows the siren gonna help then?
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Siren will help in many ways,one it tells the public we are still there,it also alerts those members who have gone out with out their pagers and last of all it also alerts any other cfs members who are in town that we have a job and they may come and help....
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ahhh, i was thinking... if there nto around, then there not around.
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Siren will help in many ways,one it tells the public we are still there,it also alerts those members who have gone out with out their pagers and last of all it also alerts any other cfs members who are in town that we have a job and they may come and help....
i have a question...im a newbie, and a baby.
but anyway if your actually in a different brigade, but are somewhere else when the other siren goes off, are you allowed to go see if the other brigade needs more hands?
just curious
country kid
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Siren will help in many ways,one it tells the public we are still there,it also alerts those members who have gone out with out their pagers and last of all it also alerts any other cfs members who are in town that we have a job and they may come and help....
i have a question...im a newbie, and a baby.
but anyway if your actually in a different brigade, but are somewhere else when the other siren goes off, are you allowed to go see if the other brigade needs more hands?
just curious
country kid
Technically yes if you are in another town and the brigade there has a station siren of which goes off meaning they need more crew and you've got your PPE on hand theres no reason why you cant respond with that brigade
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Siren will help in many ways,one it tells the public we are still there,it also alerts those members who have gone out with out their pagers and last of all it also alerts any other cfs members who are in town that we have a job and they may come and help....
i have a question...im a newbie, and a baby.
but anyway if your actually in a different brigade, but are somewhere else when the other siren goes off, are you allowed to go see if the other brigade needs more hands?
just curious
country kid
you can, but if you rocked up at my station, and i didnt know you personally, your not getting on my truck. i like to know the people im responding with..... need to be able to trust your crew.
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Mack might have the benifit of ample crew ?..
Some rural towns would jump at the opportunity to put one more on the truck if you were driving past the station and you saw a couple people flying into the local CFS area.
Alot of vollies that travel alot, particulalry in remote / rural areas, carry their gear with them for that exact reason CK. - So yes, to answer your question, you can. :-)
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Mack might have the benifit of ample crew ?..
yes we usually do ok for crew.... but personally i would rather default, than put joe blow off the street onto our truck...
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If you have PPE and CFS ID then come along for the ride.......
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Mack might have the benifit of ample crew ?..
yes we usually do ok for crew.... but personally i would rather default, than put joe blow off the street onto our truck...
They arent Jo Blow, they are a fellow CFS member..
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Mack might have the benifit of ample crew ?..
yes we usually do ok for crew.... but personally i would rather default, than put joe blow off the street onto our truck...
They arent Jo Blow, they are a fellow CFS member..
still... not on my truck ;)
if you rocked up at the station and told me you were jimmy poppinoff from hicks flat brigade, and had level 3, CFB, and all the accreditations in the world.... if i dont know you persoanlly then that doesnt mean much. I know plenty of 'loose canons' with plenty of accreditations, doesnt make them reliable.
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Jeez you must really trust your training system then! :wink:
& your peers!
cheers
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Jeez you must really trust your training system then! :wink:
& your peers!
cheers
i trust the people in my brigade and other members of the services that i have met and spent some time with...
Chook, would you trust me with your life if i just rocked up at your station one day and expected to jump on the truck?
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okay i get where everyone is coming from...
but...MACK ... wat about a spare of hands for traffic control at a RCR or something. i mean it would be usefull, and yes i do understand not knowin them but think about it, most of the time we go to RCR's we dont know them and they still trust us all
country kid
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I don't know how well you brigade interacts with its neighbor but i know id i rocked up at a t house fire and then Stirling arrived and i was to enter the house with one of their operators chances are i would not even know their name.
This isn't terribly good but is overcome with training everyone to the level.
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I'm with Mack...I would be reluctant to take a person I have never met, and don't know, out to an emergency call...
I know of many brigade who cross-crew....which is an excellent concept...I have some of my members who spend a fair bit of time in another brigade's area (and a long way from my brigade).
He asked about what did I think about him responding with that brigade...I told him he should - but he MUST make contact with the other brigade, and chat to them..so at least they know who he is, and can do some checks on him, should they need to....
There is an argument that everyone has done BFF-1 and is capable of responding....that may be true (but in some cases, may not..) but, that aside, at least if you go out with another brigade, they at least know who you are, BEFORE the s*%t hits the fan...!
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Yes Mack, if they are qualified in the skill I require at the time. As Country Kid said @ a RCR tasks other services are there & we hope that they know what they doing. At the recent Pinnaroo task we had CFS crews blended in with our SES teams (in fact they out numbered us) & small SES teams from M/Bridge, Bordertown & Berri - never worked together before yet we had to trust each other.
Thats what training is for - ask the SES guys who do the RCR course, they have to meet the standard and its a fairly high bar. So if someone from another unit around here attended one of our callouts to lend a hand & was qualified and I turned them away cause I don't know them it would be an insult.
I know it happened to me once and when the unit concerned finished the task, it turned out I knew more about RCR than they did & they were asking me about how they should have done the extracation.
So I guess if you have doubts about ability, you can always give them the less mission critical task to begin with. As I said I put my life in the hands of you "hose jockeys" all the time so I would hope you know what you are doing! :wink: cheers
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ahhh but were not talking about neighbouring crews "inter-mingling" at a job, nor are we talking about cooperation between services...
were talking about a person, youve never seen before in your life, rocking up at your station because they heard the siren sound, claiming to be a member of the CFS from wherever, then expecting to get on your appliance as part of your crew. If you would let them on, your an exteremely trusting person.
Pip - glad someone's on "my side"
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Ok the parameters are changin, if they don't have id & you don't know them I guess you err on the side caution, but we have roped in civilians on tasks cause we needed that extra hand - only on stuff that wasn't critical though!
cheers
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Pip - glad someone's on "my side"
I'm also with you Mack - unless I know someone, and what they're capable of, I wouldn't want to trust my life to them. (Given that I have a choice). Working with other brigades is different, as its usually your "team" from your truck, working with their "team" from their truck.
In my opinion, as an OIC of a truck, it's your responsibility to know what your crew is trained in, and capable of. If you don't know the guest CFS vol, no matter where they're from, or what they say they can do, you're not only taking a risk for your own crew, but also any crews you might be working with on the fire ground.
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I agree with not putting them on an appliance if you don't know them.
We have guys that ride with us on some jobs but they train with us as well as their own brigades.
As well as we have a few members that will soon respond with a HAZMAT brigade in our group from my brigade when they are short as they have the training from another service and will be training with that brigade as well as making themselves familiar with their appliances.
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Ok,so what is the differance if you go on a strike team and you are with 4 other members who you dont know??? I know its a hard call but when you need crews and someone rock up says they are in CFS and have PPE and ID you could use them for something??? I have turned out with CFA brigade's when in their area doing work showed my CFS ID and got on the appliance,I have also turned out with a few country brigade's when they have not had crews and I am sure there are others that have done the same....
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Ok,so what is the differance if you go on a strike team and you are with 4 other members who you dont know??? I know its a hard call but when you need crews and someone rock up says they are in CFS and have PPE and ID you could use them for something??? I have turned out with CFA brigade's when in their area doing work showed my CFS ID and got on the appliance,I have also turned out with a few country brigade's when they have not had crews and I am sure there are others that have done the same....
Haha regarding strike teams..very easy...just use the "hours" u sit in staging to get to know the composite crew your part of ;)...
it became apparent the strengths and weakness's of other crew during my deployment to KI, i even helped the others by letting them know wot roles i have confidence in and others that i could strengthen. since KI was a good learning time guess what i did...all the stuff im not used to. :P
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Ok,so what is the differance if you go on a strike team and you are with 4 other members who you dont know??? I know its a hard call but when you need crews and someone rock up says they are in CFS and have PPE and ID you could use them for something??? I have turned out with CFA brigade's when in their area doing work showed my CFS ID and got on the appliance,I have also turned out with a few country brigade's when they have not had crews and I am sure there are others that have done the same....
I have to agree with Blinky as long as they have their CFS PPE on hand it doesnt matter if you dont know them they are still a CFS Volunteer full stop and have the same fire fighting training so its best to take any offers of help from fellow CFS Vollies when theres a shortage in crew
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Pip - glad someone's on "my side"
I'm also with you Mack - unless I know someone, and what they're capable of, I wouldn't want to trust my life to them. (Given that I have a choice). Working with other brigades is different, as its usually your "team" from your truck, working with their "team" from their truck.
In my opinion, as an OIC of a truck, it's your responsibility to know what your crew is trained in, and capable of. If you don't know the guest CFS vol, no matter where they're from, or what they say they can do, you're not only taking a risk for your own crew, but also any crews you might be working with on the fire ground.
But that is contradictive.. - I could rock up to your station (carrying all my PBI, id, what ever, you dont know how im trained but you know Im BA atleast), you have never met me before (actually, you may have) but anyway, never trained with me before, granted, you wont let me on the truck cause of a Trust issue.. Cause you don't know my abilities.. - In real life, I am not very far away from you, in regards to brigades, the possiblity is slim, yet still there that we could arrive at a job together (particualry if fighting fires in the hills again) - You still don't know my training, nor my abilities, yet you and I could both have to "go in" and trust each other with our lives.. - As trained too.
I understand what you are saying, but its a little contradictive.. Basically saying if I come on the back of the truck, you automatically "trust" my abilities.. But not if I rock up carrying my gear.. Its a bit of a catch 22..
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I understand what you are saying, but its a little contradictive.. Basically saying if I come on the back of the truck, you automatically "trust" my abilities.. But not if I rock up carrying my gear.. Its a bit of a catch 22..
When someone is coming on the back of the another brigades truck, the OIC of that truck has (in a way) taken responsibility for the competence of his or her crew.
Likewise, in my group when we have composite strike teams, the captains are the ones that submit the names, so they aren't just a volly wandering in from the street.
Without being disrespectful, there are a few members of my brigade that still have PPE, but don't come to training or calls frequently, that I wouldn't necessarily trust on the back of a truck... If I'm from their brigade and don't want them, are you still happy to have them on yours?
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Fair point one question though why are they still there?
Having gone thru the pain of getting rid of people that are not suitable, I maybe I'm naive but I assume others do the same.
cheers
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I understand what you are saying, but its a little contradictive.. Basically saying if I come on the back of the truck, you automatically "trust" my abilities.. But not if I rock up carrying my gear.. Its a bit of a catch 22..
The difference is that the OIC of the truck you are on has already let you get on the vehicle. If you rock up at another station it is up to that OIC as to whether you get on or not.
Personally if I hadn't seen you before then you wouldn't be on my truck. I have to make sure that my crew is appropriately trained for whatever situation we are going to, if I don't know you then I don't know your training levels.
If people from other brigades want to run with us then we ask that they come to our station on a training night and meet the crews, do some training and show us that they can draught on both of our trucks. Then you are welcome to come down if we have a call, although we will always fill the truck with Morphett Vale people before anyone else, we don't have a siren though so it is unlikely that anyone from another brigade will know we have a call.
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I guess the Urban and rural interfaces must do things rather different.. Like I said, I know of some places that would cry out for a member of the public to help, yet alone a uniformed member..
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Ok,so there are some big TRUST issues here so how do we go about fixing these issues? MATT B has said his brigade get you to come along meet the crews and train I like that idea. Sure on a strike team you will get to know your crew,at a large hazmat or RCR you will get to know the guys while you set things up,so we need to have a look at having a better system so that we are able to accept people who have done the training with in their own brigade but are willing to help your brigade out when the siren goes off. Trust is something that takes time to get to know someone and what they can or cant do...If members are willing to help another brigade then may be as MATT B has said come along and do some trainning and meet the crews. But I can tell you outside of metro people do welcome anyone when the siren goes with open arms and that you have ppe and ID.Yes rural brigade's if they can't mann the applinaces with brigade members can drive down the street and get anyone off the street on the applinace...
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There was a nice puff piece in the Sunday Mail today (23/12/07) about CFS crew shortages during the day. With this in mind: if you need a crewmember or two and youre about to take the truck out and someone rocks up with their PPE and some ID, whack 'em on the truck and give them a less intensive role. Hell, if you have to take trucks out of two areas to get a crew, take who you can get.
I know there are people in my own crew who I wouldn't trust with a simple task, much less with my life, but there are ways of working around that situation.
Beggars can't be choosers. We are all here for the same job. We are all "brothers". Seriously, you might be turning away the Firefighter Of The Year just because you don't know them. Put 'em on a lollipop... it frees up one of your regular crew to do a more trusted job.
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There was a nice puff piece in the Sunday Mail today (23/12/07) about CFS crew shortages during the day. With this in mind: if you need a crewmember or two and youre about to take the truck out and someone rocks up with their PPE and some ID, whack 'em on the truck and give them a less intensive role. filtered, if you have to take trucks out of two areas to get a crew, take who you can get.
I know there are people in my own crew who I wouldn't trust with a simple task, much less with my life, but there are ways of working around that situation.
Beggars can't be choosers. We are all here for the same job. We are all "brothers". Seriously, you might be turning away the Firefighter Of The Year just because you don't know them. Put 'em on a lollipop... it frees up one of your regular crew to do a more trusted job.
I like this idea. Then again, a Lollypop IS sort of large and heavy. They can still stuff that up :-P
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People can even stuff up traffic control.....I was first on scene at a crash, which required traffic control, and needed three people, (one each end, one in the middle), due to the location.
One member of the public, (who stopped specifically to help with traffic control) another CFS member I was travelling with, and myself, had the traffic moving smoothly, and safely past the crash scene.
Local brigade arrived, and made a complete mess of the whole operation - including not wearing safety gear, parking appliances in dangerous & unsuitable locations in relation to the traffic, completely disregarded the three of us, who already had the traffic moving appropriately, and they ended up having traffic trying to travel in both directions, at the same time, on the same lane..... :oops:
So, even what we can call simple tasks can be goofed by people!
As an OIC of an appliance, I don't let a person on my appliance, unless I had some knowledge of them.....
I am happy to cross crew - and take members from my adjoining brigades - but will not take a complete stranger on my appliance. As a BFF-1 Instructor, I tend to see many of these people, so have an idea of who they are. I also get an opportunity to travel around & see other brigades at work. You soon get to know which brigades are very good on their training, and ensuring members skills are top notch, and those brigades whose members tend to have average skills...
It has been argued that a strike team is taking strangers out, but members going on major strike teams are vetted by the Captain / Group officer before being sent, and are supposed to have had some level of experience (although it showed on the recent KI deployments, that perhaps a few should have been vetted a bit more stringently!)
Within my own crews, I know their strengths & weaknesses. There is one who says they can run the pump, but when placed under pressure, they cannot. That person doesn't go on strike teams. I would hate for that person to turn up to another brigade, who don't know him, and offer to help.
Particularly on Strike Teams, I have come across many people who tell me how good they are...but don't live up to what they say....
So, if you are not in my brigade, the only way you can come out with me is if I know you, or I have been able to check with someone I know / trust, that the person is suitable, or you attend the brigade training sessions, so you can demonstrate to me that your skills are adequate.
While we are all meant to have the same basic training, with BFF-1, there appears to be quite a difference in the competency levels around the state (that is not to say particular Regions are not as good as others - it is an individual brigade thing)
Pip
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Then Pip the service has real problems, your not on your own we have had the same but it is being addressed, I want to know if I'm hanging on the end of a rope or working on a car then the crew is competent.
So you have a fair point, hopefully in the future the situation is different & when a member of another brigade walks in you can trust them.
cheers
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Then Pip the service has real problems, your not on your own we have had the same but it is being addressed, I want to know if I'm hanging on the end of a rope or working on a car then the crew is competent.
So you have a fair point, hopefully in the future the situation is different & when a member of another brigade walks in you can trust them.
cheers
16,000 volunteers, 8,000 have half a clue, 1,000 can do the job proficiently.
Thats pretty much what it boils down to sadly. I know far too many people have their heart in the right place but the ability just isn't quite there, no matter how hard people try to help them out.
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Then I think we all know what the answer is then - far better to have less people and higher quality than lots of people who would like to help but can't.
We all know where that can lead.
Two years ago we had over 40 on the books (a lot like you mentioned), now only twelve. Does it hurt? You bet it does, but the guys that are left know the score.
Trouble is that is how our organisations were formed, good hearted people who wanted to help (this includes SAMFS &SAAS ). So its moving from that to true professionalism. Hard decisions need to be made, the community expects it.
cheers
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As a BFF-1 Instructor, I tend to see many of these people, so have an idea of who they are.
Pip,
can you tell me if it is possible to fail BFF-1? We have a member of our brigade who we have been told should not have passed this course, but did so due to the fact that they can not fail. I just find this hard to believe, as I have stated that i'm not getting on the truck with this guy. We have tried to teach him but for some reason he just can not learn.
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I am also a BFF1 instructor,Yes you can fail and we should be failing people if they don't pass all subjects,the problem you have is that once you vote someone into a brigade its hard to remove them so they can keep on doing BFF1 till they pass.Remember you have to be a brigade member before you can do BFF1.....
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thanks for clearing that one up.......well if it takes him 15 goes at it he might lose interest. I don't know how many times you can show someone how to sink a stand pipe, let them do it drive up the road to the next oneand they have already forgotten how its done?????
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Is that the same as other courses? We only get three attempts at courses that have a National competency (RCR,Nav etc). I find it hard to believe that you would keep putting people on the same course if they can't pass it after three attempts.
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I'll take the one step further and say I can't believe he was able to pass if he was not at the required standard!
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One problem with competency based learning / teaching.. Krrp trying untill your competent.. & it can look bad on the instructing
(not in every case) if people are failed, hence why most people keep trying.
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Yes you are right of course. And it not easy marking someone not yet competent.
And you get hassled by the units if someone doesn't pass, however it would feel a lot worse if something really bad happened & the root cause was poor training.
At the end of the day thats what its all about, I always ask myself this question Would I want this person on my team?
cheers
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I know brigades that have been "burnt " by other cfs volunteers rocking up claiming they are the worlds best firefighter like most of them unfortunately do, they jump the truck and clearly have no idea and with such a poor entrance system into the cfs they could be anyone.
Example Joe blow rocks up to a brigade that is urban and as mack said is from hicks flat brigade doing 20 calls a year, this Joe is turning out on a urban pumper to urban jobs possibly even mfs area and they are way out of their depth but their pride won't let them say anything, no offence this is not pre school you are running a fire brigade. It would be like putting a local cricket player into the Australian cricket team and saying good luck.
If you are going to turn out with another brigade you need to approach their captain or officers and offer your services, possibly attend trainings with them and train with their equipment, area and way the brigade operates.
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I was with a mate one day and his pager dropped for a domestic, i turned out with them as they were really short and was asked by their captain (who didn't know me) to be IC, two other brigades turned up being only a FF at the time i tried to pass the job on to 2 lieutenants and another captain, who refused to take over.
i did the job with little trouble, but was a little bemused that most of these people were comfortable with me a complete stranger to all 3 brigades being incident controller of the incident.
the GO's of the group were more than happy with the job i did, but there's no way i would do that in my brigade if someone rocked up.