SA Firefighter
Equipment => All Equipment discussion => Topic started by: JamesGar on February 15, 2005, 06:02:35 PM
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Heard that Mt Barker have finally been delivered the Re-furbished imported 13 year old Dennis Pumper which now apparently meets the ADR's and has been met with some 'interest' in the Barker brigade. I'd be interested to hear from someone in the Heyson Group what they think! I believe it looks good, but has some problems like lack of engine back/retarder and old style turnpipe lock valve instead of the 90 degree stop lever valves on most appliance :roll:
Any thought on importing further appliance to save money :?:
How about a truck design for cold nothern hemisphere weather not 40 decree Aussie days :?:
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Just think mate, what is Belair pumper going to be replaced with?
Whats the issue with screw type valves, the brits seem to get on well with them, if not they would have been replaced long ago.
I was under the impression that it was to be fitted with an exhaust brake, but come to think of it those of us using the delivery trucks in a heavily built up urban environment with heavy traffic conditions are not using anything better, even if its new!!
And in regards to the heat factor, where are scania's from? Sweden!
These trucks are fitted with the same cummins engine you find on any other Aussie truck, so I can't see it being a huge issue, perhaps the air intake might be, but we will find out.
But having said that, I don't think we should settle for them as a be all and end all fix. Maybe an interum messure to buy some time.
But let me put this to you, all of us with the heavy urban pumpers are fast approaching or have gone long past the useby date, but what are we faced with? We built these trucks for a reason, and funnily enough they are still performing better than many new trucks 20 + years later.
One thing you are getting with a Dennis is a large pump that can boost efficiently, has 2x 60 m hp lines (prefer 90) massive amount of locker space and BA seats in the cab, with a higher HP engine, auto gearbox. I have more opinions on what we should have but have woffled too much as it is. So just think what you are faced with other than a Dennis before dismissing them outright.
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Compared to alot of the Urban pumpers that are being offered at the moment, I would take the Dennis any day....
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How do the Mount Barker crew like the newish Dennis ??
or has anyone seen it in action
Any pictures :?:
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I will tell you this, New Zealand love them, I understand they are nearly up to 40 purchased so far, this is to replace all the ACCO pumpers, so I might be wrong but that tells me they are pretty good.
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Sorry Good Times, Hope I didn't come across too negative about the Dennis Pumper. I'm only relaying the thoughts of an Officer at Barker that I was speaking to yesterday!
As for the concept I'm all for trying other equipment and my understanding is that the Dennis with a 1000gpm pump is an internationally recognised excellent fire appliance, Good appliance to drive (fast I believe, but that raises obvious concerns for me), excellent brake and turning circle (that would be nice in the hills). My only issue with the turn pipe valve's is I believe all other CFS appliances have the 90 degree turn valve, and I like to keep things relatively standard across a fire service.
BA seats are a great concept, but on all operator will end up in the BA seats, (ie in our brigade all the drivers are qualified BA operator), 1 see two definite advantages in being able to get straight to work at a going fire, and additional locker space!
2x60 metre hose reels is better than only getting one 75 hp line like on the Type 2 Skilled Pumper.
I'm led to believe that Belair is going to get a 24P when Pumper is up for retirement. I like the 24P in most incidences, but wonder how effective the pump will stand up to supply constant water for the Bronto or Abbey for MFS which Belair Pumper has had to do twice in the last 12 months. Personally I'd take a Dennis too. Not my choice though!
Cheers :)
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I can tell you the 24P won't keep up with the bronto or abbey, and its got nothing to do with the pump, its the design fault of the inlets and outlets, it has a distinct lack of both, you can only put out what water you can get in, and as it only has 2 of each it just can't keep up!! And for people who doubt that, try it, I have proven it on a booster system, pump could do it, just couldn't get enough water in.
Oh, apologies James, I didn't mean to have a go, I just want people like your brigades members and others like them to consider what is going to happen in the next few years when the current pumpers are due for retirement, its going to be a step backwards for many if you are not careful.
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Nice to know about the 24P's capabilities, Considering there are a few boosters in the Belair/Blackwood Catchment will mean a bit of thought into Appliance placements. Kalyra Nursing Home has a Four outlet/Four Inlet booster so should probably get an appliance to boost with the same. Do the Skilled Type 2 Pumper have enough capability to cover this need?
What brigade are you from Goodtimes?
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If you look at the cost of this 13 year old pumper and the cost of getting replacement parts then I would say that teh CFS will notbuy any more of these. I understand from a member high up the pole that the cost is the killer and the amount of time that it will take to get parts if needed will far out ride the cost of buying more of these pumpers.
Is the price fair for a unit that is 13 years old ???????
Time to get more involved in what the volunteers want rather than supply a part time pumper,that is second hand we have a few good fire appliances maker's here in Australia who ahve full back up at the ready. I sure would like to hear what the barker brigade have to say in a few months about this unit.
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The Type 2 is a medium pumper according to AFAC, it puts out 750 GPM, go to this link for all the specs
http://www.semfirerescue.com.au/vehicle_details.php?vehicle_id=2100
Its not a bad bus, might be as good as some of us can hope for, it has 4 in, 4 out, still manual, no BA in the cab, but they new model is turbo. These were designed by the NSWFB, and they are mass producing hundreds of them for the retained stations, the only criticism I have heard is the fact they should be auto as the ACCO's were, BA in the cab as the ACCO's had and the first model was gutless. Apart from that not bad.
Regarding the Dennis, I really can't see how they would be more expensive to fix than a normal aussie fire truck, after all, the only thing unique is the cab, anything else we use. This first one would have been just to get it right for ADR but anymore would be much easier because they know what to do, but we will wait and see what Mt Barker think.
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regarding a comment i made somewhere else...
why cant we get 4wd heavy pumpers built? or can we and i just dont hear about them?
surely they would be the obvious chocie for the CFS, the best of both world...
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We could, but then ergonomics start to play havoc, and to get it right I think a heavier chassis would be needed such as an American or a European chassis, and most brigades that need them have a 4x4 appliance anyway, but there is no reason why not, the Europeans use M.A.N and the occasional Scania 4x4, the only way you would know is the diffs. But I think the Isuzu Type 2 is cheap for what you get so it will do.
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I agree with Goodtimes. I think that the CFS should look at a standard Pumper, and the NSW CFA Type 2 pumper looks the goods for me, bar only one HP line and lack of BA in cab. The BA in cab can probably be rectified if needed though. As for Auto vs Manual in the Vehicle specs for the Type 2 there is an option for an Allison Auto Shift and there not bad (I think Belair Pumper currently runs with an Allison).
My view only but to run a standard fleet of the following would unify the service and make us look more professional:
- Type 2 Urban Pumper (Covering high Urban Treat and Risks, also can take both RCR - Heavy and Hazmat)
-24P (sorry Alex) but more the Izusu D/Cab with 3cylinder turbo Pump not PTO, this to cover Urban/Rural and Rural/URban areas
-34 for Rural
-14 for areas with difficult terrain (everywhere I know, but justified), or possibly a primary rural appliance in urban areas with pumpers as backup
-Tankers, but standardised. I personally like Belairs Tanker (no bias at all) but am still fond of Yankalilla's Old Forestry RFW (Rain Forest Wrecker!) Great vehicle as it can trully go where no other appliance can (6x6 with locking diffs!)
-Stand alone Rescues/Hazmat but only a few say 15 state wide, 2-3 per region.
-and of course Command Vehicles (hate to see GO's without a form of transport!) :)
Personally I believe QAV's should be dropped. Not enough water and not enough crew. As for CAFS, I'm not sold on it, and think there are a number of risks (i.e. 20-39 seconds at least until you get water from the nozzle and lack of ability to go to a fog quickly if you need crew protection) I am a little ignorant with CAFS though.
My thoughts only
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I agree with james it is about time that we did have standard pumper for urban and urban fringe area's,I would not like to see $WD heavy pumpers as the NSW guys did play with this some years ago and the up keep of these units was more than the cost of the appliances that where built. The new type two pumper that eden hill's is getting is turbo and sure it only comes with one hp line but times have changed in how we deal with urban fires.
CAFS units have there good and bad points and they may work well in the STATES but lets face it the fire service there get alot more money that what we do here in Australia. Q.A. have there good points are great in some areas where there and not many members but also good in area's where you can't get a 24/34 into.
Each brigade/group has there own risk's and needs,we in the south east like our 34 units due to grass/blue gums/and forest risk's but also because we dont have water tankers down here other than what we can get from the council.It should be noted that in the cfs fleet in the south east we only have 3 pumpers,one at millicent,naracoorte and bordertown the MFS have two pumpers and a skyjet at gambier.
So has you can see we all have different needs around the state.
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So has you can see we all have different needs around the state.
Well knock me down with a feather, you could not have said a more logical statement, pity they try to make the rest fit into what they have.
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I see some OHS risks with a heavy duty 4wd Pumper. Alex just looking at 24P, anything stored high in your locker to me seems a risk as it's so high. Don't know if that's ever been a problem, but I'm 6'5" or 196cm tall and think I'd probably have a problem reaching some stuff up there. Let me know if I'm wrong. The answer could be airbag suspension on the back to lower the appliance, but that's big $'s. We've done it in SAAS though with the F350 Ford ambulance's in regional SA having self lowering suspension, open the back doors and it lowers 100mm, sounds great with a big hiss of air and looks impressive, but as I said $'s.
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cant say storage has ever been a problem with coro 24P, the only things that are stored above head height are blankets, so no real risk there at all.
also a comment that was made above about the type 2 pumpers not having BA in the cab. to me this seems a sensible idea. not having BA in the cab may mean an extra 1minute when you get to the job, but having it there also seems a slight safety risk to me. if someone was to fail to stow it properly, what would happen if the truck had to stop suddenly. also surely it would increase difficulty when dismounting from the truck if you had a set on? id rather get to the job then don it.
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Definite advantage of having BA in Cab to safe locker space. This may be an advantage with some pumpers which carry both Heavy RCR and Hazmat Stowage.
I share your believes alex about OHSW risk, but surely we can gather some information from other service (including MFS) about incident statistic from these seats.
Other point though Alex is the 60sec+ at the scene may honestly be the difference is someones life if they're trapped in a house or burning car. Emotive point I know, but I thinks it's looks professional to get of the truck in BA and have the cold stuff on the hot stuff in under a minute, not like it is now where a crew takes 2-3minutes to don BA (realistic time, training times might be under a minute, but realistic job) and then a minute or so getting hoses on the run. BA Donning/Tallies and BA control could all be done prior to arrival with BA in Cab Systems.
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Lets look at how long that the brits have been using our sets and had them installed in the cab, given the Mt Barker Dennis has BA in the seats its been at least 12 years. SAMFS use a lightweight cylinder so its a lot easier to get in and out, and look at it this way, if the concerns you bring up were a problem, then BA seats would never have taken off, even the CFA are putting them in their new Scania pumpers, so they must be an advantage, it should be more important for volly brigades because they are already behind the 8 ball for time, but as with everything, it comes down to the dollar! (except if your a volly in America)
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Agree with JamesGar in regards to the unifying and standardising of appliances.
*Also believe we should have BA in the Cab
*90m High Pressure lines on the Urban Pumpers (and 2 of them)
*Non P.T.O driven pumps... - If the need ever arrises to have to move an appliance, and there are crew on the end of Hose lines - Your stuffed.
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I could not disagree more strikeathird, urban pumpers should have PTO pumps, becasue they are primarily stationary and if your fighting a fire in a structure I would be pretty damn annoyed if you drove off!! Also a PTO takes up stuff all room, and if you need to pump and roll you will find most of the older pumpers have a little one and a half Darley on board. Oh and if your pumpy is to stupid to take it out of PTO then whats he doing driving.
Oh and the noise too, you get a bit tired of dakka dakka dakka after a few hours!!
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I've used both PTO and Engine Driven Pumps on numerous occasions now and for long term high pressure/high volume pumping I'd take a 2 or 3 stage PTO pump everyday. You can still move an appliance if you need and the noise levels are somewhat lower. No addition fuel lines and they may look complex but I've found the transition to a PTO pump easy.
Agree with Striker about all other points: BA Seats and HP lines though
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Heard something new today. Possibility of a 34 Pumper. Similar concept to the 24P but a larger pump again. Sounds interesting and may fill the Urban/Rural appliance role better than the 24P's, I guess watch this space, hold your breath, but I won't... end up too blue in the face!
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Well you can let your breath out, its no different apart from having a 3000 ltr tank rather than 2000, still a 500 gpm volume pump, but I will say they have evolved into a much nicer machine than the first effort. BUT they still are not a pumper.
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Have you just seen plans GTimes or is one in production already. Skilled/Mills Tui or Moores?
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No spoke to a friend at Burnside who said thats what they have been told, as they wanted to know what they were getting, they actually told me theirs was a one off PTO version, so that will be nice to see in the flesh.
The rest will be the same as the current 24P but with more water.
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Heard Belair may be getting the same to replace pumper. Hope we can get a PTO as well! Thanks
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would be good to see another 4wd appliance in the "city end" of the group (plz no comments about CFS not only being rural, but urban as well), sounds like a 34P may be a good option for belair.
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Alex, if it came with a PTO I'd say yes, but would still prefer a Type 2 Pumper (my choice!)
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fair enuf, id like to see a pumper at coro as well instead of our cfs standard 24 (as we cover a few high risks as well, schools, craigburn etc.) but its just not practical.. we cant purely decide what appliances we want, by there abilities to supply MFS appliances with water.
you stated somewhere in another post as one of your arguments for a pumper (i understand that it isnt the only one!!!) that you required a type 2 pumper, not a 24P, because you have had to supply the MFS bronto with water two times in the last year. this is not a justified reason, supplying water to an MFS truck is an MFS job, we need trucks to protect our own area not MFS area.
sure a 24P or 34P with a powerful PTO pump would be great though.. no arguments there, and i acknowledge that we need trucks capable of shifting a lot of water quickly for assets such as the hospital and nursing homes, but we also need 4WDs, your brigade for instance is the first response into belair national park, and if we cant get enough trucks in there quickly from our end on a bad day, then we might as well just be calling upper sturt or stirling and tell them to catch it as it burns out he other side.
the type 2s entry/exit angles are to low, this isnt only going to affect off road capabilities, but think about some roads in belair/eden hills/coromandel valley area (extremely windy, tight and steep), i dont think trucks with such low clearances would make it down and around many of our suburbs.
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Yeah thats a point, but for a 34P to be usefull as a pumping appliance it MUST have 4 in and 4 out, then you could live with it, but as they are I think it would be a step backwards for you Belair. I guess the problem lies when you have been used to having top of the range gear under council funding, but when you come under central funding you get the basic stuff like the rest of us do. I guess you need to do some research in your area to see if what you are getting is suitable for what you protect. Look at your current pumper and compare, if a 34P in its normal configuration will do everything you need it to do to the best possible level then thats all you need, if not then you have some work to do!!
But I think we are cutting out too many of the pumpers instead of increasing the number, but hey I am only a volunteer , what would I know.
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Also James, in regards to the Type 2, they are not that expensive for what you are getting, if we tapped into the NSWFB order we could get a number of them for a reasonable price, and at the same time increase our pumping abilty. After all, if NSWFB are doing 150 this year surely 3 or 4 extra's isn't gonna hurt, and we could save some $$$$
IT would be interesting to do a count of what pumpers are still out there and see what we are going to lose, might be an indication of where the service is heading in the future, I smell a NSWRFS type service in the future? Multiple 4x4 light pumpers, with a SAMFS type service doing everything else, but I don't think this is the right topic for that.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but I dont think a 34 would not fit in Belair station.
The story I have heard that the CFS will spend 50K on making the station bigger ( not sure how)
It would be better to give Belair the 50K to make an applaince they need
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Correct me if I am wrong, but I dont think a 34 would not fit in Belair station.
The story I have heard that the CFS will spend 50K on making the station bigger ( not sure how)
It would be better to give Belair the 50K to make an applaince they need
Hmmm, good point, James food for thought?
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Good point's all round guys thanks. Alex just letting you know one of the times Belair was used to supply water to the Abbey in Blackwoods area, at the cold store fire and the other was the Mitcham Shops, which is in the enhanced response area, MFS area sure, and we're all there to do the same job.
As for off road, I'd have to say that over 98% of jobs that Belair have been to in the last year with Pumper have been black top only and we've only taken Pumper offroad to one fire in the park and one grassie in Brown Hill Creek, both time numerous other brigades responded and the grassie Blackwood Rescue drove into it so I can't see why a Type 2 wouldn't!
Got the view of fight the fire you responding to, not the one that might happen later. i.e. the majority of soem brigades work is Urban related so it make sense to give them urban related appliances! Got a second appliance for rural work, it would be nice 14 was a bit bigger, more water , longer HP and bigger pump!
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Current 24P's fit in Belair station, don't know if 34P cab will be taller. They can always increase the station height to fit an aerial pumper in a few years (ha, I'd like to see the day!)
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Current 24P's fit in Belair station, don't know if 34P cab will be taller. They can always increase the station height to fit an aerial pumper in a few years (ha, I'd like to see the day!)
The problems is it might be a red areial pumper :evil:
Only joking :shock:
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So it would be nice if Belair 14 had more water etc
You mean you would like a 24 :?:
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YEah, 24, 24P, 34 more water bigger appliance, I'd certainly prefer that personally! I haven't been anywhere in 14 that I wouldn't happily take a bigger appliance!
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Correct me if I am wrong, but I dont think a 34 would not fit in Belair station.
The story I have heard that the CFS will spend 50K on making the station bigger ( not sure how)
It would be better to give Belair the 50K to make an applaince they need
you have got to be joking!!!!!! :roll:
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For anyone not familiar with the Mt Barker pumper.
http://www.safirefighter.com/pic1.htm
(http://www.safirefighter.com/Assets/Images/barker1.jpg)
(http://www.safirefighter.com/Assets/Images/barker2.jpg)
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Back to the original topic aboiut Mt Barkers Dennis Pumper. In last weekends paper I read that the National Government is going to bar further importation of Grey (used) vehicles. All vehicle coming into Australia must pass both emission and safety regs of ADR prior to arriving in the country unless they are made prior to 1988. This will probably put a stop to CFS buying any further 13 year old Dennis Appliances from the UK! Some would say a pity! Verdict is still out for me!
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hehe.. not bad, if you dont mind driving around in a box.. (just joking)
looks good,
can we get more detailed photos when it has been properly kitted out... anyone from mt barker?
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From what I gather from the Promo Unit website Mt Barker have finally taken delivery of Dennis! :? I'll wait and see how it goes...
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Don't hold your breath, the Volvo was still front runner today.
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I haven't held my breath yet!!! So why would I start? :P
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I see the Dennis is in the workshop at the moment. Can anyone from Mt. Barker tell us why? Is this just routine stuff or is there a problem?
Adam, Meningie
(curious)
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I understand it's mechanical faults, not up to scratch so they took it back. Fair enough to, you get a "new" truck you expect it to work 100%.
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It is like stirling pumper :lol:
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A fair expectation indeed. Problem is, its happening with all to many of the new appliances now days!
Did it actually get to do anything before it got sent back??
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Yeah, it reversed into the station overnight , then drove out again the next day!! :lol: The SAMFS Volvo is still front runner.
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Second hand problems :!:
Mt Barker should have a new appliance :!:
I would love to see the MFS get a used appliance, they union would put up a big fight :!:
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Yes, we asked vfba and were told that we should take that back through the group, read between the lines is we don't want to rock the boat coz cfs fund us.
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Personally I dont have a problem with second hand appliances..... as long as they are up to the standard, in good condition... and working properly!
I believe MFS have a rolling turn over where the high turnout stations get vehicles replaced quite frequntly, and outer stations recieve hand-me-downs from there. An idea which i have no problem with if the brigade recieving is low turnout, and the vehicle is in good nic.....
The catch question is 'why was the vehicle made second hand in the first place?'
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Mick, not sure as to why the vehicles are second hand in the first place, but I have heard that there was some industrial dispute/ union ban about the Dennis leaving the UK in the first place.
I believe there is a number of blown valves on the pump currently and some engine problems.
I've heard that the MFS Tech Service guy really like the appliance and rate it very highly. With the MFS like all fire services having a strong traditional bond I'm not surprise, as the then SA Fire Service (SAFS) in the 1970 ran Dennis appliances as front line truck, with an interesting front/bull bar mounted PTO pump???
I'd take one if one was offer as a replacement to our pumper instead of the 34P that I believe we're getting!
As for appliance movements I've got no problem with changing vehicle on workload issue. This is something that SAAS has looked at. Big problem is that stations with the higher workload tend to mistreat the vehicles, hard driving, hard treatment, and this tends to develop premature engine and ergonomic problems.
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I think the Denis became second hand in the first place, because, as like SAMFS, they turn there trucks round every few years...
I agree, i would take it any day... (As long as the couple problems are fixed, i think she would be a pearler of a rig!!
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The Dennis was purchased second hand because the Brits have a policy to have no front line trucks older than 10 years, so there is a heap of pumpers that are just over 10 years old doing nothing, the Dennis is the Rolls Royce of fire trucks so once all the bugs are sorted its going to be a ripper of a truck to have. New Zealand Fire Service have nearly 40 of these on the run and they love them!
James, SAMFS have not used Dennis since the early 50's, the appliance your thinking of is the Chubb Pacesetter with front mount pump, SAMFS (SAFB not SAFS) had 5 of these, less than 10 were ever built worldwide, very good truck but to radical a design for most.
SAMFS are also not sending as many second hand trucks out to the country, you look at most SAMFS retained now and they are getting new trucks, perhaps the second away might be older but most first away are new.
Also James I would rather a Dennis than a 34P too, and I hope Belair don't roll over and accept the 34P, it would be a big step down from your current appliance!!!
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Thanks GT for the correction, I did know that SAFB/MFS had used Dennis appliances, just wasn't 100% sure of when.
I think a welcome to new member Jason who appears to be from Mt Barker so we should be able to get more of a regular update on Dennis!
As for Belair and the 34P, the brigade will definitely not lie down and accept this replacement for Pumper, there's no way we should be going backwards in capability!
I have been lead to believe that the CFS know uses Brigades 'Service Requirements' not SFEC description (which I think is the Board Approved documentation for appliances) for the desicion for appliance placements, but have not seen any documentation to prove that! I'm sure some politician would make a meal out of some of the processes that have been carried out within CFS at the moment.....
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I received a PM from jason our Mt Barker member on the forum who has informed me that they had the Dennis last weekend and found around 27 faults with it in a weekend, so it's been offline being repaired this week and they hopefully will get it back tomorrow night.
Also talk to a member of our brigade who is a MFS mechanic/engineer who said the dennis would keep up, if not out do the MFS on pumping capability! Looking forward to seeing it in action!
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Like I said the Dennis is the Rolls Royce of fire trucks, but like anything second hand there will be problems, mind you how often do our new trucks go out of service, isn't that right Stirling!!
James in regards to what you are being told about the new SFEC calculation thing, don't have the wool pulled over your eyes, we were told the same thing but have since found out that its not even progressed past the planning stage so approach it on the old way, and don't be told otherwise unless it can be produced in black and white, I get the distinct feeling we are being told this because if all SFEC's are done then some big dollars will need to be spent!!
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Hi all, FYI- Dennis arrived Thursday afternoon in Mt Barker & was back in the workshop by Thursday Night (Blew a Turbo line :cry: ) . So we may see it by next Friday after they replace all the old lines. :idea: it’s almost a brand New truck now - The only thing left to replace is the shell.... :wink:
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Your joking, what a lemon, this has to be the most jinxed Dennis out there, I have spoken to some New Zealanders who are running heaps of this model and they never had any real issues.
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What i cant understand, is how the saftey standards etc are met in the UK and NZ, but we have to change everything on it when it comes over here in Australia....
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I think the main problem with Dennis is that it has just been sitting around in yards, out in the weather, for the last five years not being driven, serviced etc. :?:
But now that all these mechanical fault have been fixed. Hopefully it will be a good truck to keep us going for a bit longer. :wink:
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I'd take the Dennis any day!
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Like I said the Dennis is the Rolls Royce of fire trucks, but like anything second hand there will be problems, mind you how often do our new trucks go out of service, isn't that right Stirling!!
Actually, the new part of Stirling pumper is beautiful… Until the recent electrical problems, (Recent being that the truck is still offline) The Isuzu chassis has been excellent… The main problem, the pump, is a second hand American pump that was put in to save money (against our specifications).
My point being that our problems have been with second hand parts, not new ones…
(I’m not certain that the pump is second hand, but it was defiantly not bought for our pumper)
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The pump wasn't second hand , it was in stock,and cheaper, I think from speaking to some guys at Stirling that it was specced with a 2 stage pump and a "certain person" from HQ got involved and now your truck is like it is, with a useless single stage pump!!
In regards to the cab/chassis, that was Isuzu's attempt to break into the fire appliance market with the urban pumpers, you will notice it has a much higher horse power engine, 270 hp I think, auto gearbox and a raised roof crew cab for BA seats and the like. But since you got that truck they no longer produce it as it was a huge flop, as in nobody bought them, the Scania chassis is by far the most succesful.
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Interesting to read in the Eastern Courier messenger today that Burnside are to get a new appliance this year, apparently their prototype 24 is to go to Greenhill CFS. Also mentions that negotiations are underway to replace the Pumper next year.
Any ideas on what the 24 will be replaced with ??
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The 24 will be replaced with a 34P, the pumper is "in negotiation" in other words what is on offer is not suitable.
People, get your SFEC's up to scratch and you will be surprised what you can get!!
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Now that the Dennis has been used in anger a few times...
Has Barkers opinion of it changed???
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Lucky them getting a choice :-D I wonder where the dennis would have ended up if they chose the type 2?
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Good call! Keep the Dennis!!
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what a complete load of crap...
all the time/effort required to get Dennis here.. it seems to have been a failure (from what i have read, been told, observed) and now its getting retired so quickly...
i hope CFS never goes down this road of importing appliances again.
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Alex bit quick to mow the Dennis down. This was the first time something like importing appliances has been tried for the CFS. Of course there's going to be some teething problems the first time. I think if they want to truely try this idea out to save money then it should be done on a 5 to 10 appliance trial, not just 1. It's not giving us an accurate point of view. I agree that this truck hasn't been cost effective, but I'm sure that the CFS has learnt from it's mistakes this time and if there was another dennis to come over that it would be a much smoother and cheaper operation.
I believe the Type 2 Pumper is going to replace both Mount Barkers 24P and Rescue appliance, leaving a 4 appliance brigade.
I'm also under the impression that the main problem with Dennis is the lack of Air Conditioning. Heater works very well, in fact the Pizza's at the House Fire the other night stayed very hot with the Heaters on in the cab!
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James did you mean a 3 appliance brigade? (they have 4 now)
ps any idea where the type 2 thats being built is headed?
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what a complete load of crap...
all the time/effort required to get Dennis here.. it seems to have been a failure (from what i have read, been told, observed) and now its getting retired so quickly...
i hope CFS never goes down this road of importing appliances again.
You obviously havent thought long about this! And have heard things, but not actually seen/investigated yourself.
As was stated, there was always going to be some teething problems. The dennis would out do ANY current CFS pumper, INCLUDING the ones being built at the moment, I have NO DOUBT!
If CFS were to go down this road again (and I hope they do), it would be cheaper, quicker, and more economocally(spelling) viable.
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I think that the one for Mt Barker. Sorry about the appliance numbering hiccup. What happened to their 14 Landcruiser? Last time I was there they still had that floating around!
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has become heysen 14
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If the CFS wants to import more appliances, perhaps they should get ones that havent been retired from that service due to there age....
this would be exaclty the same as say Jamaica importing our old 24s that have seen 20yeasr service in Australia, and were decommisioned becasue they are falling apart, and too old to be safe (>>?
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The rumour (yes rumour) is that CFS want to do more, the teething lessons over and many valuable lessons learnt - it's on wards and up wards - having now seen the appliance - very impressed, very nice, congratulations Mt Barker :-)
As for overseas appliances - mmm SAMFS, NSWFB and QFRS sell/donate some of their overseas and they are well over the 20 years age bracket.
Also, many CFS brigades get refurbished appliances that have been in urban areas for 10+ years - if it's good to do it within our service, why not bring in others to bolster that!!!!!!!!!!
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Part on progression means having some forthought for what is going to be needed in 10 years time or 5 years time in an area. Now I don't think that 3 years ago the CFS would have got the funding for a Urban Pumper with 1000GPM pump, excellent stowage, BA seat and a cab chassis that has a great power to weight ratio. New of the production line you'd be forking out say $500,000 at least. Now because of strong union bans in the UK on appliances over 5 years old if you could buy an appliance to that specification for only $100,000 and have in arrive only 7 to 10 year old and have it fit for ADR's for only another $50,000 then why not.
I say it's probably the best pumping appliance currently operational in the CFS and it has cost under half of that of a MFS scania, and if we were to import more then it would probably be under half the cost of a new type 2 pumper.
Good on the people for at least trying to be a bit innovative and trying to give our fire fighters better equipment and fire fighting capablilty!
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I for one am not too sure if we should buy from oversea's,We have a very good firetruck firm in this country and yes I can hear people say that there are a few firms but I am sorry SKILLED are the best. You only have to look at there workmanship and there after sales follow up but above all they know what they are doing...
I think its time to move on about the MOUNT BAKER pumper its here and one would hope that those that placed the order now have taken note of what people have said about the applinaces. I have only read in here what people think have not had a chance to talk to anyone about it,mind you I was at the comps and did see a few people there but it slipped my mind...
As for a type two are we buying more??????
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I for one am not too sure if we should buy from oversea's,We have a very good firetruck firm in this country and yes I can hear people say that there are a few firms but I am sorry SKILLED are the best. You only have to look at there workmanship and there after sales follow up but above all they know what they are doing...
I think its time to move on about the MOUNT BAKER pumper its here and one would hope that those that placed the order now have taken note of what people have said about the applinaces. I have only read in here what people think have not had a chance to talk to anyone about it,mind you I was at the comps and did see a few people there but it slipped my mind...
As for a type two are we buying more??????
I would take a dennis over a type two ANY day. Whether it's made here or not!
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Just for info, the English lease their appliances for 10 -12 years, once they leave service they are more than good enough for us. Think about it, we keep our trucks for 20 + years, so we can get a lot of life out of the Dennis yet, I would be dissapointed if we stopped getting them. Having spoken to some Mt Barker people after they tried the Type 2 all reports say the Dennis wins hands down.
Also, you can buy these Dennis for between 5000 and 15000 pounds, so 25000 dollars at the most, not bad hey!!
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I would like to see the revised cost of changeover.... the first will always be the most expensive, the question is how much over the prolonged period?
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New Zealand pay around 120,000 to 150,000 for a fully rebuilt appliance.
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As of today Mt Barker are running the type 2 callsign being Barker Rescue. Probably too confusing calling it pumper 2
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I understand that two appliances where picked up from mount barker yesterday one being there rescue not sure what the other one was?? rescue is going to go to the beach. I am sure aldinga beach will like it but am more sure mount barker will miss it.... :-(
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The 24P goes to Littlehampton and the Rescue goes to Aldinga Beach. Callsign for the pump/rescue is Barker Rescue.
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I'm pretty sure Mt barker won't miss it at all, they are getting a canter replaced with a turbo intercooled isuzu, at least the new one will do more than 90 on the freeway.
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They might be able to go faster, but it also means they've lost a truck, I think thats what rescue5271 meant. Am I right that they have 3 trucks now? 24, Pumper and Pump/Rescue?
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Am I right that they have 3 trucks now? 24, Pumper and Pump/Rescue?
Correct
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mmm.. but they were always going to lose that truck...
sure theyll be much happier with dualing pumpers than the old rescue.. thr problem is the loss of rural trucks...
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4 people to run 2 trucks?
would it not have made more sense to roll a regulation crew on 1 truck and still ask for littlehampton and maybe another brigade? with all the talk bout putting crews at risk......
Ill reserve my other opinions at this point......
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whats wrong with taking a pumper to a grass fire :?
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does the pumper have 'pump'n'roll' capabilities? even a little firefighter pump similar to what the QAV's have surfices.
and before anyone complains about that... look at it this way... it gets the job done.
Besides if barker is genuinely concerned about their ability to deal with a grass fire then they should have automatic dual responses. not call or back-up as is seen fit!
But i can only suggest these things, its up to others to act on them......
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yes all type two pumpers have pump and role,but dont they still have a 24????
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ok, maybe i didnt put the dual response comment quite right.
your comment related to having to respond 2 pumpers to a grass fire. my comment relates to your concerns for safety about this.
To clarify:
If worried about the safety of 2 pumpers on the fire ground then 2 brigades (or more) should be automatically dispatched to fill the need of rural appliances.
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Jason are you sure they dont have a aux pump? as all the type two pumpers that I have seen have a aux pump on the left handside for that reason????
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Well how silly are they,all the others that CFS have have a aux pump so as urban brigades can still pump and role,I think they can still add one on so it may pay for them to contact tec services and get it done.....
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you havent sold me on a reason not to respond other brigades. any help is better than none.
besides you contradict yourself.
Barker had to respond the pumpers to a grass fire on Tuesday, no rural truck, asked for back up from Littlehampton only got 4 ppl to run two trucks
first you tell me you couldnt get a crew for the 2 pumpers
this is what happens when region and group take truck away from big stations that can crew....
and then you tell me you can always get a crew so you dont need to worry??????
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Barker had to respond the pumpers to a grass fire on Tuesday, no rural truck, asked for back up from Littlehampton only got 4 ppl to run two trucks........
Um am I missing something or is minimum crewing on appliances of 22 size and larger four people??
If this is still the rule and a brigade has four people turnout, then only one appliance should have been sent and request another brigade?
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MIKE - Littlehampton ONLY had 4 CREW, to run LH24, Heysen tanker.(two trucks)
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I'm confused.
How many trucks from each station and how many crew on each truck?
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MIKE - Littlehampton ONLY had 4 CREW, to run LH24, Heysen tanker.(two trucks)
If they only had 4 they should have crewed the truck that was going to be of most use and tried to source crew for the other.
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Whats wrong with keep responding crews/appliances/stations until you get what you want - thats the idea of upgrading an alarm - has worked world wide for years.
As for pumpers not being able to fight grass fires - what the - they have water, hoses, crews - maybe they can't drive along the fire edge but what about pulling out a hose line, adding lay flat - there are many solutions that a lot of brigades with pumpers have instigated.
Lets not get tunnel vision or limit pumpers response capabilities - maybe adapt an MFS stance - issue knap sacks and or rake hoes - it has worked for MFS for years where vehicle access isn't possible.
Lets stop bashing the pumpers and use common sense and logical solutions (and supplying a 24 isn't obviously one of them!!!)
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Most of the grass fires I have been to we have been on the side of the road or a track that a pumper could go to, yes I have been to a lot that you would need a 24
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some groups have a history of keeping callouts to themselves, some brigades are worse.... even traveling well into other groups areas and not notifying them.
It may not be the case here, but im getting that impression...... each to their own i guess.
IMO only...... I know this post could be taken either way... There is a long history behind my opening statement, which im not going to get into.
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how many crew were running the two mt barker pumps?
and why wasnt barker 24 sent?
surely your brigade will be looking at auto dual response for grassfires now that you only have one rural.?
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maybe it is just a Barossa Group thing but everytime there is a fire at least 2 appliances must go.
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and why wasn't barker 24 sent?
I believe Barker 24 is offline for repairs atm.
and while we are on the Pumper at grassfires debate, I think Mount Barker definitely needs a rural Vehicle. Think of the area Mt Barker covers, Wistow, Mount Barker Springs, the massive area between Barker and Macclesfield... Mount barker covers a huge area of rural bush / grass land... They need a rural vehicle...
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HMMM... theyve got a rural vehicle, i think they need a dual response to all grassfires.
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I called in to Barker station on thursday to have a look at the dennis and type 2 and Barker 24 was in the station and running i believe??
On the topic of Barker Pumper And Barker Rescue all i can say is NIIICCE i want one (either will do) :-o:-D
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Jason, I read it like many others obviously had, in the first couple posts, it seems the way you said it was Barker sent 2 (two) trucks, with a TOTAL of 4 (four) people. Thus, 2 on Dennis, 2 on Izuzu...
I believe you may have meant L/H only had 4 across the 2 trucks.
In that case, they should get a bollocking.
And dual response / multi response should DEFINATELY be looked at for Rural related jobs while you are operating 1 rural truck. The area is too large to expect a single station to cover it.
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On the topic of Barker Pumper And Barker Rescue all i can say is NIIICCE i want one (either will do) :-o:-D
Would'nt we all :-)!
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some groups have a history of keeping callouts to themselves, some brigades are worse.... even traveling well into other groups areas and not notifying them.
There is a long history behind my opening statement, which im not going to get into.
Yes We Have Had That Problem As Well, It Happens. Best To Let The GO Know & He/She Can Sort It Out.
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I would make the suggestion that it should be MFS / SOC who respond 2 brigades in the initial page, rather than leaving it to the brigades... All grassfires we get are automatic dual responses, we rarely get responded on our own..
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dual response is the way to go..
the only jobs we go to by ourselves are no carrier alarms, tree down/storm damage and smoke sightings (out of TFB)...
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*shows ignorance* whats a no carrier alarm?
We also go to car fires and rubbish bin fires on our own ;)
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A Fire Indicator Panel (FIP) has either an ATU, PPU or Deltec device attached which sends a Poll to the Concentrator or to a Brigade Romteck unit.
If there is a line fault a no carrier condition is reported to the brigade.
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^^CHEERS
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ahhh, thanks for that Firefrog... My brigade's FIP isn't quite that advanced.. it just says alarm or clear...
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Ours beeps and has a red or green light and the red one flashes too> :wink: :-P :-D
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There were a few articles in the Courier this week. its interesting....
There was an article and a letter to the editor about barker loosing a rural truck, and how they desperately needed another 24P. as well as retaining the type 2 and the dennis.....
A letter to the editor about the same issue.
both articles acknowledged the fact that Barker was very much becoming an urban brigade, but were worried about all the houses on all the new small properties. Whilst not recognising that it was possible to respond multiple brigades at the same time. (It was mentioned that these brigades existed, and could be responded, but it was sensationalised.
At the same time there was a little article about strath. They have no station to work out of at the moment (tempory housing at the SES unit). a bus as a gruop base... and thier comments were basically: weve made contingency plans for the interim, its not ideal but well make the most of it.....
just find it interesting how people effect their own fate..... complete opposite ways of dealing with things!
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Mike,
Maybe a good idea to post the articles from the Courier, not just your views
Jason
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Extract from the Courier (8/2/06)
Rural residents fear loss of CFS cover Wistow properties are at greater risk from bushfire since the CFS hierarchy swapped one of Mt Barker brigade’s two rural firefighting appliances for an urban firefighting appliance, a group of local residents claim.
Spokesman Ian Blight condemned the swap - implemented last week - saying the district’s growing population made a rural appliance a greater priority. “Out at Wistow there’s increasing need for rural fire appliances because there’s more smaller farms and houses and things like that and more properties to protect,” he said.
“The CFS hierarchy say there’s one (rural) fire appliance at Mt Barker and there’s back-up at Woodchester and Littlehampton et cetera but for Wistow residents it will mean only one fire truck will be available in the shortest
possible time instead of being two.
“Any other fire appliance that’s coming to back them up, there will be extra delay in getting there, and time is a critical factor in a fire.
“If you can get fire trucks there in the shortest possible time, before the fire has spread, that’s the most effective
way of controlling the fire.”
Mt Barker brigade captain Peter Vincent shared residents’concerns. He is meeting with senior CFS management this week to argue that Mt Barker’s growing population and increasing vehicle accident workload made it imperative to keep both rural appliances but take on the extra urban appliance with road crash rescue equipment.
Up until February the brigade had one urban appliance and two rural appliances with 4WD capabilities for off-road firefighting.
Unfortunately I dont have a copy of the paper to retype from..... so I cant get the letter to the ed. or the strath article.
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Jason, can you please confirm or deny this...
Did Barker have the choice of either;
1. replacing Dennis with a type 2 and keeping Rescue,24P and 24; or,
2. replacing 24P and Rescue with a type 2 and keeping Dennis and 24 - as has now happened?
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hmm mmmm ... Interesting!
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Jason, can you please confirm or deny this...
Did Barker have the choice of either;
1. replacing Dennis with a type 2 and keeping Rescue,24P and 24; or,
2. replacing 24P and Rescue with a type 2 and keeping Dennis and 24 - as has now happened?
I dont think either were there given options although i cant conrifm what they were...
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mmmmm Two pumpers and a 24,whats the matter with that??? mind you there is support close by and there is always fast air support in summmer so what's the problem??? If its such a problem then the group should look at(A) open a satelite station with a 24. (B) the group needs to stand up and support the brigade....
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From this weeks Courier Newspaper
Bid for second rural unit fails
The Mt Barker CFS has failed in its bid to keep its second
rural appliance after brigade representatives met with the
firefighting organisation’s hierarchy Monday night.
Heysen Group Officer Simon Henderson said authorities
decided the vehicle structure at Mt Barker would “stay the
way it is” until all the brigades in the Mt Barker Council
district were reviewed over the next year.
Earlier this month CFS management changed Mt Barker’s
fleet of two rural appliances and one urban appliance for
one rural appliance (with 4WD capabilities), one urban
appliance and a new urban appliance with road crash
rescue equipment.
The swap angered a group of residents living on rural
properties at Wistow who claimed they were at greater
risk from bushfire because only one rural appliance would
reach their area in the shortest possible time.
To ease residents’ concerns, the CFS decided Monday
night to instigate a new call-out policy for Wistow.
Mt Barker would send two appliances - one rural and one
urban pumping appliance for asset protection - and the
Littlehampton brigade would send its rural appliance and a
bulk water carrier.
Depending on the location of the call, Woodchester
brigade would also respond.
“We will be servicing the residents of Wistow better than
was before because we’re sending an extra appliance
than was sent before so there won’t be a huge time
delay,” Mr Henderson said.
Littlehampton would have enough volunteers to crew their
appliances, he said.
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That is a fair call by CFS if you ask me.
I think the trouble is Mount Barker have been too use to more than the adequate number of appliances to cover their needs.
For example, Naracoorte seem to manage with a very similar structure:
Urban Pumper.
Specilaist Rescue.
Rural Appliance.
...and rural back-up for them is a much, much greater distance away than it is for Mount Barker.
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Yep we do get by and we would love a second rural appliances but we know have the region 5 24 at our station.mind you this appliances can be sent to any brigade in the region as a spare with out any notice other than a phone call to our captain.. Mount barker will be fine,mind you their group as a 14 unit?????
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Believe Heysen 14 is in littlehampton stn now... strange how Mt barker has gone from 5 appliances to 3... and littlehampton has gone from two to four.... can they really crew all the appliances? or even two trucks and the tanker?
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Twelve years ago at Goolwa we used to run two 24's, a 34, and a 42, ahh those were the days, but i was a cadet then so haven't got too much to reminisce about :wink:
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a 42.....???
cool.
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a 42.....???
cool.
It was a huge truck but was phased out about a year after i joined. :cry:
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Believe Heysen 14 is in littlehampton stn now... strange how Mt barker has gone from 5 appliances to 3... and littlehampton has gone from two to four.... can they really crew all the appliances? or even two trucks and the tanker?
*Devils advocate*
Which brigade is Mark Thomason a member of again?
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have to ammend myself... apparently heysen 14 is leaving heysen group...
CFS_FIREY:
LOL