SA Firefighter
Equipment => All Equipment discussion => Topic started by: 6739264 on December 10, 2009, 11:22:05 AM
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So, I hear rumours of a "memo" from somewhere "up the chain" that is commanding that we only wear PBI to *Confirmed* Structure fires and nothing else?
No AFA's, no RCR's, no rural jobs...
Confirm/Deny?
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Should be a poster in your station that tell's you what and what not to wear it to.
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Should be a poster in your station that tell's you what and what not to wear it to.
Ah, but which has more authority, a poster or the dreaded "memo from up the chain" ?
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So, I hear rumours of a "memo" from somewhere "up the chain" that is commanding that we only wear PBI to *Confirmed* Structure fires and nothing else?
No AFA's, no RCR's, no rural jobs...
Confirm/Deny?
not quite, but if you removed the words "confirmed" and "AFA's" from your post then it matches the memo sent to captains from the R1C (and agree to by GO's at the last R1VMC).
regarding authority and the poster/memo, the definitive answer of what you wear when and to what is found in section 5 of the CFS uniform manual.
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Oh I love the continued hearsay and Chinese whispers that are so prevalent in the CFS.
mmm Chinese...
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So this has happened to open a whole can of worms in the Chain of Command....
Does state policy overtake regional policy...
POSTER > State
MEMO > Region
Personally, i know where i want to wear it, and i compare that to both.
POSTER > Green light
MEMO > Red light
Guess where i wont wear it that keeps state and region happy lulz!
In regards to "confirmed/AFA's"...those brigades who heard that, have misinterpreted the memo.
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In that case, it looks like my choice is:
POSTER > Red Light
MEMO > Red Light
Oh well *shrug*
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I would like to go POSTER > Yellow Light...the Hybrid format. But you have to be in Lofty group to do that...
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I was talking more of just avoiding the issue and going nude...
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ha good point... Now that's a new idea when it comes to Fire Service PPE Protests... But yeh, it'd be horrible..
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POSTER > State
MEMO > Region
can you give an example where it's contradictory? (cos of course the memo, poster and uniform manual should all match)
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State...Everything except Rural.
Region....Only when you will wear BA.
Hazmat is an example where this contradicts with SOP. To do anything in Hazmat operations, its PBI Gold or Higher, required.
IF youve got PBI, wear it...its a higher level of protection, from the elements of danger we encounter.. CFS Motto: "Safety First".
Now...the Storm Damage/Weather Related incidents....Poster: Yes, Memo: No.
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Region.....isnt that advisory only.....sort of like that annoying tone that tells u that you are over the speed limit in your car?
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State...Everything except Rural.
Region....Only when you will wear BA.
the uniform manual is supposed to be the definitive source. If the poster contradicts that then get your GO to raise it to the region. (both the uniform manual and poster are issued by state, so when you say 'region' I assume you mean the memo? the memo is just supposed to be reinforcing the state policy.)
quote from the uniform manual (under 'structural ensemble' and a picture of someone wearing PBI Gold):
APPLICATION
To be worn at all structure and other fires and / or incidents where the risk dictates the necessity for structural firefighting PPE to be worn.
The PPE is worn during structural fire fighting and while partaking in drill or training exercises.
The PPE may be worn in other situations at the discretion of the Officer-in-Charge.
It is not to be worn at rural fire incidents and it is not to be mixed with rural ensemble.
Hazmat is an example where this contradicts with SOP. To do anything in Hazmat operations, its PBI Gold or Higher, required.
No it's the 'rural ensemble' for hazmat according to the uniform manual (usually just a shorts/pants and t-shirt are worn under the splash/gas suit from what I've seen).
IF youve got PBI, wear it...its a higher level of protection, from the elements of danger we encounter.. CFS Motto: "Safety First".
where you think you should wear PBI Gold is a different matter. If you don't like the current rules, lobby to get them changed.
Now...the Storm Damage/Weather Related incidents....Poster: Yes, Memo: No.
I would have thought storm/weather related things are what the wet weather gear is for but agreed it does say you can wear PBI Gold to those. If you're following the poster I would think you're on safe ground.
[disclaimer: you should be asking your Captain or GO about all this stuff, not an internet forum]
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No it's the 'rural ensemble' for hazmat according to the uniform manual (usually just a shorts/pants and t-shirt are worn under the splash/gas suit from what I've seen).
Ill keep washing my Level 1 after being a Decon Zone Operator, in my own washing machine then.....
Decon Zone Operator literally needs to be wearing a Chemical Barrier...either being PBI gold or Tyvek Coveralls.
The PBI Gold Ensemble is a chemical barrier application. The IERG refers to Level 3/Structural when it comes to the lowest protection for Immediate Rescue.
...Yeah, but you know how some GO's & Captains are, they seem to follow the leader who sends out the wrong message. Higher ranks in the group seem to hate PBI as much as the select few of Staff. They are, unapproachable, about this topic.
Last question, why isnt there a copy of the Uniform Manual in every station, accessible to all members.
Rules being made without consulting particular departments of the CFS...
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If you're following the poster I would think you're on safe ground.
The poster is simple to understa.... and issued by state.
As I have told my captain, until something is provided in writing by state that contradicts the current information, I will wear the best aforded protection that suits the situation (as allowed by the ticks).
As for storm/weather: PBI povides a water barrier. Why carry another coat in the rain....?
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As Zippy suggested, we're only to wear a rural ensemble for Hazmat, yet for immediate rescue we are to wear L3 as a minimum...
Hmm, curious...
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I'm going to carry around a Uniform Manual, a Poster, a Memo, and a IERG with me all the time....somehow...
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So, I hear rumours of a "memo" from somewhere "up the chain" that is commanding that we only wear PBI to *Confirmed* Structure fires and nothing else?
No AFA's, no RCR's, no rural jobs...
Confirm/Deny?
I'm going to presume the entire basis for this post was probably just rumopur and not actual fact anyway... but.
If the AFA bit is true, then someone has there head well and truly wedged up there butt... although it would tend to echoe the entire services attitude towards alarm calls.
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Wear PBI gold to a structure fire, half the time if you are in a busy brigade it is getting cleaned.
Try get a spare set
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The memo comes froms Mr Martin (thats a whole other story on his interesting views) but all it says is don't mix and match eg no PBI pants and NOMEX jacket. It goes on to say abide by the poster.
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Well, apparently something is coming from COAC.... But ive been told to chase it up with region.
Have to say im much, much less than impressed with some of the things I was told last night in relation to this issue.... but that shall remain in my head for now.
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The more this issue gets pushed, the more i care less about bushfires...
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but that shall remain in my head for now.
it is like that. Most of the guys in my brigade (I'd say all except a couple) don't care about any of the crap that goes on, or should I say comes down from upon, they just turn up (training and calls), do the job and go home.
But all you guys with thoughts on PBI Gold, have you made sure your group officer knows of your and/or your brigade's opinions? at the last regional volunteer management meeting all the GO's present were in agreement with the published policy - however the main two GO's who have been somewhat vocal on PBI Gold in the past were not at that meeting.
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Darius, Im certainly not one who likes to remain quite about these things :)
Well, just got off the phone to region. The official stance is still: poster + uniform manual = all the info needed..... (which we all knew anyway)
Which unfortunately contradicts what I was told AGAIN last night, and makes the proposed consequences even more stupid and irrational....
[vent][\vent(maybe)]
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Hopefully, at tonight's R1VMC meeting, the POSTER & UNIFORM MANUAL are disseminated & explained thoroughly.
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the poster is pretty clear, The problem is that a whole lot of people seem to like interpreting the memo in astrange way, the one i saw points you to the poster and manual. and refreshes that uniforms shouldn;t be mixed.
Note the manual already said that.
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To many Group Officers trying to put there own spin on it, for Example our GO is telling us we will be removed from the rural fireground if we have a structural helmet on, GOOD LUCK WITH THAT !!! Tell me where it says we can't wear it, you have NOT got a leg to stand on.
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for Example our GO is telling us we will be removed from the rural fireground if we have a structural helmet on
Same here now....
*shakes head*
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To many Group Officers trying to put there own spin on it, for Example our GO is telling us we will be removed from the rural fireground if we have a structural helmet on, GOOD LUCK WITH THAT !!! Tell me where it says we can't wear it, you have NOT got a leg to stand on.
Well at least two things are consistant.......
Were getting the same story, and giving the same answer......
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I say keep it simple any rural jobs I wear my rural gear with a structural helmet. My PBI gold is in a bag in the truck or behind the seat.
Anything else PBI gold, why some may ask it's been a few times we have been at an MVA no entrapment's and we have just finished the make safe deal then our pagers have gone off for either a car or structure fire. So why look like a gong beater changing your gear on the side of the road!
Plus we have no drama's with our DGO's or GO as a brigade Lieutenant they just let us get on with the job and even when they arrive at incidents if it's going all smooth they don't come in and take over command if you don't require it.
At the end of the day as the OIC you are the person responsible for your crew's safety!
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Hear Hear bundybear!
The poster says it all, afterall the poster cost as much money to make as buying bucket loads of PPE....
I'm waiting for TRAINING to be a more focused issue than PPE and AIRCRAFT and VEHICLES and RECRUITMENT and OHS and and and....
Training is how we are firefighters....
NEEDDD WATER NOWW!!!! Pump operator: ehhhhh, ahhhh, ohhhhh, there we go...
Train to be quick thinkers and doers...
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To many Group Officers trying to put there own spin on it, for Example our GO is telling us we will be removed from the rural fireground if we have a structural helmet on, GOOD LUCK WITH THAT !!! Tell me where it says we can't wear it, you have NOT got a leg to stand on.
hehehe....maybe u should be in a group that only buys structural helmets :lol:
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Yeah, give it time, but then we would have to put up with the never wearing PBI brigade. WHY IS IT SO HARD NOW, THE POSTER TELLS US WHAT TO DO, END OF STORY!
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Darren, Steamranger? ill join ya?
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Yeah, give it time, but then we would have to put up with the never wearing PBI brigade. WHY IS IT SO HARD NOW, THE POSTER TELLS US WHAT TO DO, END OF STORY!
Alas, some dont want to go out of their comfort zone :-P
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Yeah still to this day some Group officers and DGO's make me shake my head the group next to us is a classic, I won't mention the name as it's probably the wrong thing to do but they put the gong in gong beaters and don't help the cause of CFS looking professional.
Basically self respond themselves to everything and I'm talking non event car accidents and car fires etc and even sometimes across their boundaries!
Half the time not properly attired for the fire ground.
Plus their ability to command an incident goes out the window when it's anything more than a rural job.
Yes, yes these are the sort of hicks that believe PBI gold only get worn to structure jobs and half the time they cant wear their rural gear properly!
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So this "memo"....anyone mind posting a copy??
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Heres what we (Mt Lofty) put up for discussion at the last R1VMC
let me know your thoughts
R
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Very well penned letter Rainer, now the wait for their answers :-D
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Very nice letter
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great stuff!!!!!
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Jesus Christ.... when is everyone just going to learn that we are a bushfire service that only dabbles in urban fire fighting!!!!!!
:roll:
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fyi, The filtered continues in the structure helmet department.
Hello! its a tick box on the poster!!!!
Question: is a verbal instruction a mandate? or does it have to be written and signed.
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If this sort of beaurocracy continues...
The next time i ever need to report in a fire...ill be calling 10 numbers on my mobile, that arent 000...to get farm units onto it........30mins drive from the city.
Volunteer retention anyone?
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Well, until someone comes and threatens me with a paycut, I will continue wearing the best protection afforded to me for the particular incident type. I agree that the PPE shouldn't be mixed, as not only does it compromise the safety (the garments are only rated as such a high level of protection if worn together as intended) but DAMNED if it doesn't look stupid.
If you want to pull the old argument, MFS wear it and are safe, it's good enough for my country behind :lol:
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I agree that the PPE shouldn't be mixed, as not only does it compromise the safety (the garments are only rated as such a high level of protection if worn together as intended) but DAMNED if it doesn't look stupid.
If you want to pull the old argument, MFS wear it and are safe, it's good enough for my country behind :lol:
Uh oh, looks like someone doesnt understand the Aust. Standard.
Tell me how L3 pants and an L1 Coat thus makes the ensemble compromised below the level of L1? Its all about the lowest level of protection you're wearing.
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Uh oh, looks like someone doesnt understand the Aust. Standard.
Tell me how L3 pants and an L1 Coat thus makes the ensemble compromised below the level of L1? Its all about the lowest level of protection you're wearing.
Simple.
L3 garments do not have the metabolic heat dissipation function of L1 garments. Therefore, your L1 protection is compromised.
Same is true of using structural helmets at bush fires.
Remember your basic fire safety - not all hazards are external.
And yes I'm in a Group which only issues structural helmets. :-(
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Uh oh, looks like someone doesnt understand the Aust. Standard.
Tell me how L3 pants and an L1 Coat thus makes the ensemble compromised below the level of L1? Its all about the lowest level of protection you're wearing.
Simple.
L3 garments do not have the metabolic heat dissipation function of L1 garments. Therefore, your L1 protection is compromised.
Same is true of using structural helmets at bush fires.
Remember your basic fire safety - not all hazards are external.
And yes I'm in a Group which only issues structural helmets. :-(
I'm with the PBI gold side of your post, but structural helmets....or "higher level" protection helmets are the Go.
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Simple.
L3 garments do not have the metabolic heat dissipation function of L1 garments. Therefore, your L1 protection is compromised.
I always thought Australian PPE standards were in relation to what level of protection you got from external hazards only. If not, wouldn't wearing long sleeved shirts or pants under your wildfire PPE "compromise" your protection and effectively mean you're not wearing gear that meets the standard?
Same is true of using structural helmets at bush fires.
Remember your basic fire safety - not all hazards are external.
And yes I'm in a Group which only issues structural helmets. :-(
Isn't the issue with structural helmets that they're heavier, not warmer?
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Simple.
L3 garments do not have the metabolic heat dissipation function of L1 garments. Therefore, your L1 protection is compromised.
I always thought Australian PPE standards were in relation to what level of protection you got from external hazards only. If not, wouldn't wearing long sleeved shirts or pants under your wildfire PPE "compromise" your protection and effectively mean you're not wearing gear that meets the standard?
Same is true of using structural helmets at bush fires.
Remember your basic fire safety - not all hazards are external.
And yes I'm in a Group which only issues structural helmets. :-(
Isn't the issue with structural helmets that they're heavier, not warmer?
It's an issue, not the only one. And there are lots of ways to lessen the
effectiveness of your PPE...
Caveat: I am more familiar with the AS for helmets (1801.3 & 4067) than I
am for ensembles. However, much has been written about both in various
technical forums including AFAC, EMA journals & CSIRO joint research with
fire services.)
The two sets of PPE are designed to defeat different primary & secondary threats.
The primary threat from rural fires is radiant heat, closely followed by
metabolic heat accumulating over many hours in a warm environment.
Radiant heat blocking is well understood.
Metabolic heat removal is achieved by promoting ventilation, specifically to
speed evaporation of sweat. Remember FF1/BFF1 - evaporation is how sweating
cools you, not just its presence on the skin. Wearing long clothes under rural
PPE can interfere with it, but such clothing is normally relatively light.
Water vapour from your sweat can still escape through that and the unsealed
outer shell, lowering humidity inside, and allowing more sweat to evaporate.
Because it needs to breathe, rural PPE has little insulating ability.
Structural PPE is intended to completely insulate the wearer from a lethally
hot atmosphere for a period of time. It therefore must not breathe at all. If
it breathes, it allows that hot atmosphere inside. Bad karma man. Clothing
that doesn't allow outside atmosphere in, also prevents inside from getting
out. Your sweat evaporates until the atmosphere inside your sauna suit is fully
saturated. Then it ceases to evaporate & just heats to body or exterior temp,
giving no cooling effect whatsosever. Hopefully, by the time it gets to be a
real problem, you have blown your CABA cylinder and can come outside to cool
down again.
All the above applies to helmet design as well, plus some measures of impact &
penetration resistance, and attachment security. Rural helmet is designed to
ventilate the scone, structural to insulate it. Rural hat achieves ventilation
with some trade-off in impact resistance, but of course it can be made much
lighter without all that insulation in it.
I read somewhere that, although the head only accounts for about 10% of body
surface area, it accounts for 20% of body heat loss. Or absorption. That's on a
naked body, or one immersed in water. On a PPE clad body, the figure would be
higher. Yet for some reason it is felt ok to ignore this & seal the head in a
structure hat at rural fires. I'm not convinced that taking the structural hat
off for 15mins in every hour is entirely effective. And the way trees were
dropping at the last few fires we've been at, methinks a rural hat worn 100% of
the time is a safer way to play than a stronger structure hat worn only 75%.
make sense ?
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that was a very well thought out post.
So if we made a Structural helmet shaped lv1 helmet would that satisfy all of you who think the bushwacker hat looks stupid :-D
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The BR9 isn't the only rural helmet on the market.
BR1 & BR3 both look 'better' in my opinion.
So does Scott Aspen's FF1.
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Thanks for that post Alan, as bittenyakka said, it's nice top have a well thought out and apparently researched post! I do want to correct you on one thing though:
Structural PPE is intended to completely insulate the wearer from a lethally
hot atmosphere for a period of time. It therefore must not breathe at all. If
it breathes, it allows that hot atmosphere inside. Bad karma man. Clothing
that doesn't allow outside atmosphere in, also prevents inside from getting
out. Your sweat evaporates until the atmosphere inside your sauna suit is fully
saturated. Then it ceases to evaporate & just heats to body or exterior temp,
giving no cooling effect whatsosever. Hopefully, by the time it gets to be a
real problem, you have blown your CABA cylinder and can come outside to cool
down again.
Lion's PBI Gold's moister barrier is achieved with two layers of GORE-TEX® membrane, which is, (allegedly), completely breathable. I believe it is expected that fluid cannot penetrate the garments, but sweat vapours can escape, so while it's not as breathable as lighter fabrics might be, it's not a fully encapsulated suit.
Are you arguing PBI shouldn't be worn with widlfire gear because you'll get too hot, or because your ensemble won't meet the Australian Standard? I can appreciate that some members would overheat and run into trouble, but I'm not convinced that's ground enough to blame the PPE and ban it...
So if we made a Structural helmet shaped lv1 helmet would that satisfy all of you who think the bushwacker hat looks stupid :-D
I'd have to see it first, but probably :p
Although that would mean carrying 2 helmets and 2 sets of gear to every job, which doesn't really appeal.
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From a personal stand point I have never had an issue with the heat in a structural helmet, I have had more issues with the rural helmet giving me a headache from the more flimsy parts digging in, and the visor and neck flap not covering as well as the structural helmet in a rather hot scrub fire.
Bring back the Top Guard...those were the days :-D
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Are you arguing PBI shouldn't be worn with widlfire gear because you'll get too hot, or because your ensemble won't meet the Australian Standard? I can appreciate that some members would overheat and run into trouble, but I'm not convinced that's ground enough to blame the PPE and ban it...
Not quite that simplistic.
There's a time & a place for each type of PPE.
I say understand the functions of the different PPE & wear the appropriate
ensemble to meet the actual risks of the job. A bit hard to
guessimate the exact details before arrival, but the general info is there -
weather & job type.
Dress to your real risks rather than a dogmatic "'x' PPE gives better protection."
The obvious ones are rural fires on hot days, & interior attack on cold ones.
Some contrary examples as far as The Roolz go...
when mopping up on the night after a cold front comes through, there's not
much risk of overheating in anything. Same for attending a rubbish fire on a wet
May evening.
On the other hand, standing around in structural with a stop/slow bat at an
RCR on a 35deg day because "it offers better protection" is also pretty stupid.
The Standards are intended to give some sort of measurable characteristics
to manufacturers, purchasers, and users.
Policies & SOPs are written for the lowest common denominator. And we've all
met just one or two of them...
Neither replace Mk.1 brain. They are useful to guide thinking.
And to cover the backsides of the people wearing legal responsibility for
our health & safety.
Thanks for the correction on the Lion gear's breathability (is that a real word?)
I guess my point about insulation properties preventing metabolic heat escaping
stands. The cooling mechanism is severely obstructed, although not completely.
Evaporating sweat directly off the skin seems to be be most effective.
Wicking it away first, then evaporating it is of some benefit, but not as much.
cheers
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Bring back the Top Guard...those were the days :-D
A Top Guard tweaked to AS1801 part 3, with a visor & neck flap would be a pretty
good rural hat I think. Nice big shady brim, well ventilated, reasonably light.
(Don't know how they failed to meet the AS but assume they didn't as they
disappeared completely)
Who remembers the 1st generation of Pacific rural hats issued about 12 years ago?
Were pulled of the market pretty quick because their crown was filled with foam
instead of using a suspension harness. The difference between them & the Top
Guard was amazing. Putting on a Top Guard after wearing a Pacific for a while
was like putting your head in a fridge.
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there are people out there that arent fussed about sweating a bit...afterall, flushing water through your system is what the government health campaign is now...
I'd prefer to lose "X" times heat from my shoulders to hips, than anywhere else...
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Apologies if this sounds ignorant, but is there any way CFS could issue a cotton long-sleeved drill shirt (similar to MFS) to be worn with PBI.
I have experienced the extremely uncomfortable (not to mention borderline dangerous) situation where we were responded from a large structure job to an RCR. By the time we had the car stabilised i needed to scull the first bottle of water (i know that not the proper way to rehydrate but its all i had time for).
By the time we had the doors open i had little choice to remove my PBI jacket and scull a second bottle...
I understand this left me in a vulnerable situation with no PPE protection on my upper body but i had little choice. All we did from this point was remove the casualty from the vehicle however i would have been far more comrotable with a long sleeved cotton shirt. I had a brigade "fire and rescue" t-shirt on so i didnt look out of "uniform" to the public.
As i said before i would be a lot more comfortable in a long sleeved work shirt.
FYI the day was around 28-30 degrees around late morning so the sun wasnt that hot yet.
Thoughts?
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Until the CFS gets their brain into gear, just take your Wildfire Turnout Coat with you and use it for Rescue work.
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Or rip your liners out en route.
I think CFS have been hassled several times at least about looking at lvl 1 shirts, but nothing ever seems to happen.
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I think CFS have been hassled several times at least about looking at lvl 1 shirts, but nothing ever seems to happen.
*shakes head* shame...
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Been though this several times, if they issued the nomex work shirts that samfs use then they would only need to issue you with one uniform.
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Or rip your liners out en route.
I think CFS have been hassled several times at least about looking at lvl 1 shirts, but nothing ever seems to happen.
Isn't the next batch of field uniforms supposed to take that into account? or is that just wishful thinking...?
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Think you might be wishing, if it had a proban treatment then there is no reason why not.