SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: CFS_Firey on August 01, 2005, 03:15:45 PM
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A recent CFS media release about the new Ededn pumer said this:
The new appliance - an 'Isuzu FTR900' chassis - is one of three currently in South Australia. It carries 2,000 litres of water and has a rear mounted pump capable of distributing 3,000 litres per minute at 1,000kpa. It is primarily designed for structural firefighting and can assist in hydrant 'boosting' giving it the title of 'Pumper'.
Does this mean that "Pumper" simply means it can boost at a hydrant booster, and if so, does this mean that a non pumper should not be used to boost? Or are there other things that make a pumper a pumper?
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IM NO EXPERT... but,
you can use just about anything to try to boost a hydrant system (possibly excluding QAVs and smaller 14, i guess it depends what your pumps like), however boosting hydrants is basically what a pumper is designed to do. a pumper is also designed for urban work, this is why generally they are 2WD (in the case of the CFS i believe they are all 2WD), and dont get taken to rural jobs.... not as a first response anyway,.
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I cant remember the numbers, but to be classified as a pumper, the pump must be able to supply a specific amount of water, at a specific pressure, in a specific time-span.
I will not quote the numebrs in my head, as i cannot be sure they are accurate, and dont want to give anyone false information.
the numbers are somewhere in another discussion topic here some place, but again, i am buggered if i can remember where. :?
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There are hardly any CFS appliances that can 'effectively' boost a hydrant system. Most can do it, but there are only a few pumps out there, with the appropriate stages (E.G pressure stage) , and with the capacity to do so effectively....
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Thanks for clearing that up :-D
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I am not overly skilled up on the specs but I think it goes along these lines.
Most CFS trucks have a 500gpm pump. Even at 1000+Kpa these pumps cannot boost a hydrant main. Infact I have seen the hydrant pressure drop when you try to boost with a 500gpm pump. Twin lines from the cabinet & twin lines back in - pressure drops - Stop pumping pressure goes back up.
If you have a 700+gpm pump with a second stage then you can add pressure to the main. Sprinkler boosting is a bit different due to the lower water requirements of sprinkler heads versus multiple hydrants.
The educated pumping people please chime in and correct our speculation.
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^^ Yep, hence why the 24P's with the 500gpm Volume pumps are better at boosting compared to a 750gpm pressure pump...
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For boosting you want a volume stage to get alot of water in and alot of water out in a hurry. Thats why most pmpers eg: type 2's have 4 inlets and 4 outlets. Most larger premises boosters have four inlets and outlets, it's always a good idea to get a second water source to supply the truck from the street or a tanker etc.
A pumper stowage kit is different as well, most have a ppv fan, extra extinguishers, b class foam etc.
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I think if you have a look at the AFAC website you'll find publications about classifications or urban pumpers which has figures on pumping ability, stowage, cab/chassis and engine options (power to weight ratios etc). I read it some time ago but still might be current!
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You can also see the specs on eden pumper on the S.E.M website which is
www.semfirerescue.com.au
The pump is 3000l per minute at 1000kpa and 400l per minute at 4000kpa.
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I would like to say well whats a 34p? is it much different than a normal 34 :-o :mrgreen: :-D
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I believe is has a larger pump. Sure the specs are on the manufacturers website... or some one will have them.
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34p's are 1900L per minute, just trying to find out what a 34 is but i believe the newest one's have a slightly bigger pump than the last one's.
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In US Gallons Per Minute the 34P has a 500GPM pump, 34 has a 350GPM and current Type 2 Pumper has a 750GPM pump. Most MFS Scanias has a 1000GPM and I believe Mount Barkers Dennis is a 1000GPM. I'm not sure how that relates to litres but should give you a bit of a comparison!
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I think CFS is very lucky it hasn't been caught out with trucks that can't boost effectively, it might be alright in some areas but where I come from we have often had the 24P fail to boost, and yes we know what we are doing, we simply can't flow enough of the wet stuff, I still shake my head at the fact they only spec'd 2 inlets and 2 outlets. Most pumpers around the world are nearer the 1000GPM mark, but I guess the key is, if you can flow enough water 500 GPM will do an alright job, its just that what CFS builds restricts the flow.
As most have said, your Stirling, Mt Barker type trucks are your true pumpers, although Stirlings (as has been said many times) could use a high pressure stage,but you know how it is, when people mess with the specs you get a truck that doesn't work.........
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haha pumpers.... i love this topic.
By the defination of volume in a pump (not talking pressure here for a moment. but the simple thing is....
1000-2000 lts/min = light pumper
2000-3000 lts/min = medium pumper
3000+ lts/min = pumper
these volumes are usually operated at about 1000kpa or there about 150psi. If you start to talk about high pressure then it's usually 3,500 - 4,000 kpa... so about 3 times what a standard appliance usually runs at. A standard CFS 24 appliance runs usually a 300GPM, so about 1140 lts/min. a 24p or 34P runs a 500GPM pump.... so 1900 lts/min... so in reality if we call a 24P and 34P a pumper, why can't a standard 24 or 34 also be called a pumper, after all it fits in the same bracket of pumper!
The HE-500 pump that runs on 24P and 34P appliances is only a volume pump, not a pressure as it's only designed to be used around 1000 kpa... (so when people just keep winding them up to get more pressure it usually does pump damage) that's why some of the older type pumpers and new ones have a seperate high pressure stage. Some people may remember the old SAMFS isuzu pumpers that were in adelaide, glen osmond and prospect (now based in country stations) but they only had a 500GPM pump also so they were not usually used to boost...
The new Type 2 appliances run a Rosenbaur NH30 I think it's called, it's a multistage 3000lts/min pump.... so on the boarder of medium and pumper status. As also has been stated they have a number of inlets and outlets to be able to boost more effectivly....
Anyway I have probably rambled enough for the minute and hope i haven't caused too much confusion.
P.S. - if an appliance is a 'pumper' the stowage is different as has been suggested.... 4xCABA, different hose, PPV etc. I'll try and dig out a stowage list from somewhere....
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Simon, thanks for the info. Where did you get the volume flow statistics?
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The 34's from now on will be 500 gpm pumps as well. I think they found the cost was not much different.
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Bugger we just got our new 34 delivered 2 months ago, pity we only got the 250gpm pump. but does the job pretty good compared to what we did have. the only boosters in our area are two out two in and our 24p has had no problem boosting that, but as for any booster bigger than that i doubt that anything other than pto driven pumpers could do it.
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Well we did a test with our 24P with 2 in 2 out at a winery and it failed to give adequate flow at the hydrant, but no one seemed to care when it was brought up, it seems to be a risk CFS are willing to take.
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the most impressive cfs pumper i have seen would have to be the dennis, 1250gpm pump it take a few of them daka daka pumps to supply to it.
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Im a cadet at barmera station and we have recently been given a new 24p which has had a few minor problems with the pump but apart from that it looks great and runs hard
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I've heard Mt Barker are still having problems with the Dennis, and the CFS has decided not to get any more as a result. It would be nice if the CFS fixed the pumper problem once and or all. :|
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Well the C.F.S could have had some scania heavy pumpers exactly the same as M.F.S for $380,000 if they had have added onto the last M.F.S order then half the C.F.S applience problems would ave been solved.
But I guess that would be the easy way out and we can't have that.
It is about $50,000 more than a type 2 but it is exactly what a few brigades need and it sure beats pumping more and more money into appliences such as stirling pumper.
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Im a cadet at barmera station and we have recently been given a new 24p which has had a few minor problems with the pump but apart from that it looks great and runs hard
What problems have Barmera had with their 24P? I thought all was well there.
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Im a cadet at barmera station and we have recently been given a new 24p which has had a few minor problems with the pump but apart from that it looks great and runs hard
Not to stray off the topic too much but,...
Where do you stow your HAZMAT equipment, because according to the promo website you do not carry it on any of your appliances?
Do you have a HAZMAT trailer?
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Dont know if this is the right section but does anyone know when Hahndorf are taking delivery of their type 2 pumper?
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Dont know if this is the right section but does anyone know when Hahndorf are taking delivery of their type 2 pumper?
Are you sure?
Nothing against Hahndorf, but wouldn't have thought that a new type 2 pumper for their brigade would have been justifiable. Why not replace their old pumper with a 24P like every other brigade out there?
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Dont know if this is the right section but does anyone know when Hahndorf are taking delivery of their type 2 pumper?
If this is true then CFS have just proved again that they toss a coin to decide where a truck goes, surely a type2 would be better served at such brigades as Belair, salisbury, dalkeith, seaford, Morphett V...etc...
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Guys,
Both Hahndorf pumper and Mt Barker pumper (which will be rescue) are at NE Isuzu ready to go.
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Are you sure?
Nothing against Hahndorf, but wouldn't have thought that a new type 2 pumper for their brigade would have been justifiable. Why not replace their old pumper with a 24P like every other brigade out there?
Have heard that it is the only appliance that will fit in their station as the main street of Hahndorf is heritage listed and the station cant be altered.
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Guys,
Both Hahndorf pumper and Mt Barker pumper (which will be rescue) are at NE Isuzu ready to go.
Has the type 2 replacement for Barker 24P been brought forward? I thoought it was still 18 months away?
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I have heard the region is causing a lot of problems with barker if any of you read the courier news paper letters to the editor last week. They are losing their 24p and rescue for the type2. Yes the only reason that has been heard is that hahndorf cant fit any other appliance in.
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Have also heard (but cant confirm :-)) the 24P is to be relocated to Littlehampton?
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Yeah i heard that aswell, and they are keeping their 24?? Funny how they will have the same appliances as morphett vale who do how many more jobs and have a bigger urban area?? One must ask the question isn't region 1 commander in that brigade??
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:? Let me get this right...Mt Barker have got the Dennis, and are now getting an SEM type 2 Pump/Rescue as well, at the sacrifice of their 24P going to Littlehampton? Yet a URBAN/RURAL (Yes, it should be in that order) station like Happy Valley loses their Pumper for a very rural 34, to partner their, not that suited for urban risk, 24P. To sum up....WHAT THE? :x
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I've been in the CFS long enough to know that logic doesn't surface much... particulary when it comes to appliances... :(
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Let me get this right...Mt Barker have got the Dennis, and are now getting an SEM type 2 Pump/Rescue as well, at the sacrifice of their 24P going to Littlehampton? Yet a URBAN/RURAL (Yes, it should be in that order) station like Happy Valley loses their Pumper for a very rural 34, to partner their, not that suited for urban risk, 24P. To sum up....WHAT THE?
I dont get it either but guys it is funny how littlehampton got their SFEC upgraded to get barker 24p within a month and Happy Valley have been waiting since what 1996!!!!
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06/07 will see 9 x 34P's, 24 x 34's, 2 x UP's
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06/07 will see 9 x 34P's, 24 x 34's, 2 x UP's
Any idea how they will be distributed?
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06/07 will see 9 x 34P's, 24 x 34's, 2 x UP's
Any idea how they will be distributed?
Illogically?
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Does that still exists??????
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Not really
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:? Let me get this right...Mt Barker have got the Dennis, and are now getting an SEM type 2 Pump/Rescue as well, at the sacrifice of their 24P going to Littlehampton? Yet a URBAN/RURAL (Yes, it should be in that order) station like Happy Valley loses their Pumper for a very rural 34, to partner their, not that suited for urban risk, 24P. To sum up....WHAT THE? :x
Don't forget Hahndorf will also be getting a new type two pumper. Be nice if new appliances and especially new pumpers were shared around a little more. Been a lot of new appliances for Heysen group in the last couple of years. I also hope the that the reason for Hahndorf getting a type two isn't solely because of their station size - Hahndorf did 5 building fires last year and about 20 fixed alarms. Hahndorf don't have any specialist roles/equipment other than CABA. You go figure!
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We did about 40 structure related jobs and we far from qualify for a pumper even with all the risk in our area, figure that out :?
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24P are u from Hahndorf... ??
It says they did 5 structure fires on the 2004, 2005 Stats...
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nah not from hahndorf, just bemused by the appliance lottery like many others.
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hmmm.... It definately makes you wonder..... :oops:
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Dont forget CFS_Fire32 your group has got a lot of new and referbished stuff in the last 5 years as well (albeit 1 was an AFC 24P). theres more to come too....