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Special Interest Image Posting => Emergency Vehicles => Topic started by: kiwifirefighter on November 01, 2011, 09:16:35 PM

Title: New 24 prototype
Post by: kiwifirefighter on November 01, 2011, 09:16:35 PM
What do people think of the new prototype 24 tanker that is planned to be built
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: Zippy on November 01, 2011, 09:27:04 PM
Crewdeck :/
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: mengcfs on November 02, 2011, 08:24:17 AM
As Arthur states in his October Infralog "Yes it is different - we need to stimulate debate!
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: pumprescue on November 02, 2011, 10:16:51 AM
I think it will fill in a large gap, the 34's are way to big for the likes of say Basket Range, Cherryville, even Norton Summit, I say bring it on, make a good basic rural appliance, should still be able to get some airsets on it for those that have it as their main appliance.

I have noticed taking our's out that compared to the Hino 24 the new one is a monster and doesn't go half the places the Hino went. Yes the Hino was VERY basic, but as a rural only appliance you can't beat it.

34's out on the plains or remote areas are great, and could even go to the extent of having single cab 44's or dare I say 54's !

I am sure some tweeking will be done, so long as they don't shelve it after 1 try like the 24 that ended up at Burnside.
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: Pipster on November 02, 2011, 02:09:02 PM
A 24 is what we have been asking for in my area - 34's are just too big for us.

I think I read it only has one side line, not two.....?  If so, I think that is a mistake.

Any 24 must have some capacity to take a couple of BA sets, chainsaw & traffic control stuff (which is pretty much what we have at the moment) - and 5 or 6 crew. 

In my area, a crew deck is pretty much a waste of space, but a twin cab would be very useful.

We need to supply the feedback, and hopefully end up with a decent new appliance in about 3 years, when our old 24 comes up to its 20 years!!!

Pip
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: kiwifirefighter on November 02, 2011, 03:14:56 PM
I think that the leftside rear locker could be extended to the front end of the water tank for extra locker capacity, as currently drawn this area is a waste of space unless your as thin as a stick.  The crew deck should stay as a statewide fire service, these vehicles need to be able to deal with all types of rural fire suituations.  I agree that these sort of vehicle would suit the areas in the hills where more water is available and a smaller appliance is required.
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: misterteddy on November 02, 2011, 03:57:15 PM
I agree, a small crewdeck able to service both sides of the appliance (without extending down the sides of the appliance) is certainly required in an appliance like this. I agree with Pip.... 2 decent 90m live hose reels please. 30m or even 60m means your hardly off the road before you need to add lengths.

When are we going to source some decent Tanker replacements now?..... with 10k of water and 6x4 drivetrains that will get it most places an appliance will go? Theres a challenge Arthur...
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: boss on November 07, 2011, 09:25:51 PM
the way the main work area is set up. is the same as the tassie 14 really meant for one person use only .
And for the 34's yes there abit big for around the hills area but be grate full you guys got them and not a toy water gun mounted a push bike that's all i can say
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: pumprescue on November 07, 2011, 10:02:24 PM
So what your saying is just keep quite and be happy because it's new.....this is why we never progress, to many just happy because it's new and shiny!!
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: boss on November 08, 2011, 09:22:40 PM
So what your saying is just keep quite and be happy because it's new.....this is why we never progress, to many just happy because it's new and shiny!!

yes a new 24 would be good a bit of mod it could work better then what they have drew up so far.... no im saying just be grateful you guys have / getting the newer truck there's quite a lot of stations with older trucks that need up grading so in other word if your station is running an isuzu FTS750 or a hino pro ranger 8z  you don't need an isuzu FTS800 to replace them. early to mid 90's depending on k's and age yes up grade them
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: pumprescue on November 09, 2011, 10:22:56 AM
You don't seem to understand fleet management at all.

Example - Appliance A is from a brigade that is busy, does a lot of strike teams, etc racks up several thousand kms a year not to mention operating hours.

         Appliance B does maybe 10 calls a year, all local area and in 20 years has racked up 5000 kms, doesn't go on strike teams.


As a fleet manager why would you leave Truck A in the same brigade for 20 years and find its stuffed after 10 and needs lots of money spent when you can leave it Appliance A at the first station for 5 years, get some kms up, get some bugs ironed out and get some high usage out of it, then pass it onto the second brigade that does the 10 calls all in the local area, its still modern, nothing wrong with it, and can live quitely doing a few runs a year.

Perhaps better still have 3 levels, Busy, middle range and very quite, get maximum value, rather than spending $300,000 for a truck that will be lucky to  leave the station 100 times in its life time.

Now I wait for the rants "the deserve the morale boost" "they see more fire than region 1" blah blah blah.

Its not longer the days of when the local council paid for it, so they should adopt a more stringent plan.

But of course no one wants to think of the big picture.
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: boss on November 09, 2011, 02:52:25 PM
what I'm inapplying is everyone get a new truck then start up date again eg the  brand new last fts750 to go to whoop whoop brigade in region 6 then region 1 din dong brigade gets an fts800 and there truck go's to action to pay for the next new fts800 truck for joe blow brigade in region 3. the trucks would have a higher resale with less K's on them . and if your truck is stuffed after 10yr with only 20 to 30,000 on the clock i would be wondering if a you guys need to start looking at taking it to a new service place to get it seen to or your crews need to start looking after things better then what they have been doing
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: pumprescue on November 09, 2011, 03:11:51 PM
Aghhhhhh

Don't worry about it...

The auction money doesn't go back to the CFS....
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: Pipster on November 09, 2011, 03:30:12 PM
I don't think the km travelled is the issue with some of these appliances in busy brigades.  It is more the number of times it is started from cold (pretty much every call) and goes flat out to the call, where it idles for some time, before ambling back to the station, ready to do it again. 

That type of driving is not generally conducive to good engine wear - but it is the nature of emergency vehicles.

Pip



Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: pumprescue on November 09, 2011, 03:47:19 PM
Anyway getting back to the 24, I hope the likes of Basket Range etc get to trial it where the 34's can't go, see if it is that much smaller or not. Can't beat those old 24's for rural work!
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: Alan J on November 09, 2011, 08:33:44 PM
Locker space  :-(
Having just spent $4800 and a lot of hours on our new 34 to be able to carry a
chainsaw & some other regularly used bits & pieces. And improve accessibility to
hardware in others...
I think detail of the content stowage is more critical than general layout.
I'd want to see details of where everything is supposed to go before giving it
a thumbs up.

cheers
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: bajdas on November 10, 2011, 02:10:08 AM
How much weight (full water & equipped) should this type of vehicle be ?
That could affect your stowage plan & take off speed.
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: bittenyakka on November 22, 2011, 05:10:36 PM

I think I read it only has one side line, not two.....?  If so, I think that is a mistake.



Why are we so hooked on 2 live reels ?  it has the dead reel. If we can just get over always having a charged line with you i think loosing a sideline may be a good thing.
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: kiwifirefighter on November 22, 2011, 06:41:18 PM
It is a good point, looking at some of the 34s being produced, most have a 25mm outlet, so having a dead reel means that one person can begin attacking the fire, whilst the hose is removed from the dead reel and then hook in and pulled out etcetc.  The crew deck on this appliance is different to the tasmanian appliance as this design allows for attacking fire from both sides, while allowing for more stowage on the appliance.
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: Pipster on November 22, 2011, 08:34:36 PM

I think I read it only has one side line, not two.....?  If so, I think that is a mistake.



Why are we so hooked on 2 live reels ?  it has the dead reel. If we can just get over always having a charged line with you i think loosing a sideline may be a good thing.


We use both live reels on the appliance.  And we find it easier to pick up the roll of 25 mm layflat, and carry that to the end of the existing hose, (layflat or hosereel) and bowl it out and connect, rather than pulling the length off a dead reel, and dragging it through the scrub, to connect it to where you want it.

Certainly in my area, it is not uncommon to take out 4, 5 or 6 lengths of layflat, and go up (or down ) a really steep hill, to get the water where you need it.  Bowling the hose out as you go is a better option for us.

Pip
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: Alan J on November 25, 2011, 03:12:10 PM
Yes I have done the Forestry F/F course.
No I am not comfortable with the idea of crew walking away from the appliance
with an unproven hose-line. This is a quite separate issue from absence of one
live reel though.

Rarely use more than one 25mm, so loss of one live reel would not hurt much.
The only time in last 15yrs I can recall two lines in use other than during
mop-up, was at a grass fire which ran past us like we weren't there anyway.

A dead reel of 3x 38mm might make more sense than of 25mm. Might be quicker
getting a line prepped for structure entry & the like. And be easily pulled
out to replace the first few lengths of rubber/25mm to give better delivery
on long lays.
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: Pipster on November 25, 2011, 07:07:17 PM
And therein lies the difference - we are regularly using both our 25mm side lines - pretty much every bushfire mop up....... so some brigades would use both, while others only need one...

It'd be nice if brigades could choose which they want, on any new vehicle of this type!

Pip
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: ftstn on November 25, 2011, 08:14:46 PM
should be easy enough if you use hermaphrodite couplings ( storz,wajax, forestry etc) the plumbing runs to a coupling in the hose reel then brigades can fit what ever they like on the reel.
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: CFS_Firey on November 27, 2011, 01:38:29 PM
The crew deck should stay as a statewide fire service, these vehicles need to be able to deal with all types of rural fire suituations.

I completely disagree!  Putting a crew deck on an appliance in my station is about as useless as putting a 4000 lpm pump on Mount Hope 34.  We are a statewide fire service, which is why we need to be able to build different appliances to suit the different areas we cover.

I'd much rather have the extra locker space.
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: kiwifirefighter on November 27, 2011, 05:54:30 PM
regardless of where your station is located, a rural fire truck, whihc this 24 is should be able to deal with whatever rural fires it encounters as this applaince may end up in the outback, down the south east or the adelaide hills. Most brigades in the Adelaide hills will respond on strike teams whihc will take them to areas such as the fleurieu, KI or the upper south east where running grass fires do occur, which require a crew deck to fight effeciently.
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: Pipster on November 27, 2011, 06:27:28 PM
So we get a crew deck, but have nowhere to put our BA, salvage sheets and other urban type gear that we carry........?

We need to build appliances that suit the area they are stationed - I personally think there should be rural 44 appliances in places like the West coast / Eyre Peninsula, and 24's, minus the crew deck, in places like the Adelaide Hills.

I am all for standardisation - BUT standardisation should not mean one size fits all (cos it can't, and it doesn't!)

Pip
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: kiwifirefighter on November 27, 2011, 07:22:35 PM
i do agree with building appliances that suit areas, but the cfs is goning to do so unless brigades build their own.  The lockers and crew deck can be modified to have greater locker area as has been stated by me before, but also the design doesn't include lockers that can be placed under the deck, perhaps we can wait for the appliance to be buiot and while testing it, see how much can be fitted in
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: safireservice on November 27, 2011, 08:15:07 PM
So we get a crew deck, but have nowhere to put our BA, salvage sheets and other urban type gear that we carry........?

We need to build appliances that suit the area they are stationed - I personally think there should be rural 44 appliances in places like the West coast / Eyre Peninsula, and 24's, minus the crew deck, in places like the Adelaide Hills.

I am all for standardisation - BUT standardisation should not mean one size fits all (cos it can't, and it doesn't!)

Pip
Wasnt there something like a 44 appliance considered some time ago? Seem to remember it being discussed but obvioulsy nothing came of it. Maybe something like this?
http://www.cfaconnect.net.au/news/heavy-concept-tanker-hq.html (http://www.cfaconnect.net.au/news/heavy-concept-tanker-hq.html)
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: Ashes on November 28, 2011, 09:31:24 PM
I think they would be the DENR 34 appliances, 3600L and were to be called 44 appliances.
Cleland 34 is one of those from Moores I think.
http://www.fire-brigade.asn.au/Station_Display.asp?Service_Code=NPWSA&Station_Code=NPCL (http://www.fire-brigade.asn.au/Station_Display.asp?Service_Code=NPWSA&Station_Code=NPCL)

Ashes
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: Alan J on December 04, 2011, 03:55:09 AM
I think the heavy concept tanker photos that were kicking around were only ever a CFA idea float.
NSW RFS have implemented one or more extra heavy tankers out on the Hay Plain.
Can't remember their designation for it but it is a 6,000L fire fighting rural appliance,
as distinct from a 6,000BWC.

We probably ought to offer 5 or more standard heavy appliances:
Plus light appliances for access - 14's & QA's

My 2 bob's worth anyway.
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: Alan (Big Al) on December 04, 2011, 06:31:37 AM
The current SEM build of 34p is a step back in time with the missing full length drivers side locker and most if not all RCR brigades would struggle to fit an RCR kit and 4 BA sets on that appliance, and i think you could forget any RCR equipment on an U/R 34
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: CFS_Firey on December 04, 2011, 07:56:21 AM
I think the heavy concept tanker photos that were kicking around were only ever a CFA idea float.
NSW RFS have implemented one or more extra heavy tankers out on the Hay Plain.
Can't remember their designation for it but it is a 6,000L fire fighting rural appliance,
as distinct from a 6,000BWC.

We probably ought to offer 5 or more standard heavy appliances:
  • Rural 24 - as per this thread's sketches - crew deck & limited locker space
       Hills  brigade's second appliance to complement their 34P or 34U/R
  • Rural 44 - with limited locker space acceptable - big tank & crew deck, but no CABA or RCR
  • Rural/Urban 34 - smaller crew deck & tankage with slightly increased locker space for CABA / RCR
  • Urban/Rural 34 - no crew deck, even more locker space
  • 34P - as per current Skilled build
Plus light appliances for access - 14's & QA's

My 2 bob's worth anyway.

I'd add an Urban Pumper to that list.

Also I wonder what you propose to be the difference between the 34P and Urban/Rural 34 given the difference between current 34 and 34Ps is locker setup?
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: misterteddy on December 04, 2011, 09:39:43 AM
heaven forbid we could have a rescue appliance that carried more than lightweight Road Crash gear
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: CFS_Firey on December 04, 2011, 10:04:09 PM
heaven forbid we could have a rescue appliance that carried more than lightweight Road Crash gear

Not to mention a Rescue Appliance as opposed to a Road Crash Rescue appliance.  (or is that supposed to be rescue tanker?)
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: Alan J on December 05, 2011, 12:48:06 AM
I'd add an Urban Pumper to that list.
Also I wonder what you propose to be the difference between the 34P and Urban/Rural 34 given the difference between current 34 and 34Ps is locker setup?

OK....
can't speak to the current builds - our 34 urban stowage is Moores 2009/10

Was thinking 34P = Skilled build like Belair 34P,  or our ex-NSWRFS PTO 34P
(which we look like hanging onto for an extra year or so YAY!!!)

A 34 urban/rural being more like our Moores 34 minus crew deck (no use to us)
plus extra locker/stowage space. Maybe unstrangle the pump with revised plumbing.

34 rural/urban - pretty much what our Moores 34 is. (With a few mods including
unstrangling the pump plumbing)

Pumper & RCR are good additions, but not "tankers" in the Eastern States sense
of the word, which (officially) we have adopted.

It seems we are slowly drifting towards what the NSW RFS have had for years.
Would probably make some sense to simply buy their designs.
NOT perfect, but certainly functional, and cover most of the bases being
discussed here, including recognising different areas have different needs.
http://www.rfs.nsw.gov.au/dsp_content.cfm?cat_id=1118 (http://www.rfs.nsw.gov.au/dsp_content.cfm?cat_id=1118)
There is/was also a Cat.2 - similar to our 24 specs but not listed here.
food for thought?
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: DaveP on December 05, 2011, 09:35:23 AM
I agree that we (CFS) seem to spend too much effort re-inventing the wheel. But when we have people saying that they do not need the crew deck in their area I wonder if they have caught the vision of a statewide (at least) fire service. I am sure that I saw Cherry Gardens on the side of an appliance at One Tree Hill on Saturday and if there had been a flare up they would have been keen to have a crew deck for the running grass fire. The alternative to a crew deck is a remote controlled monitor like the CFA prototype, but I suspect that they are expensive and not as responsive as a branck in an operators hands.
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: CFS_Firey on December 05, 2011, 10:34:00 AM
I agree that we (CFS) seem to spend too much effort re-inventing the wheel. But when we have people saying that they do not need the crew deck in their area I wonder if they have caught the vision of a statewide (at least) fire service. I am sure that I saw Cherry Gardens on the side of an appliance at One Tree Hill on Saturday and if there had been a flare up they would have been keen to have a crew deck for the running grass fire. The alternative to a crew deck is a remote controlled monitor like the CFA prototype, but I suspect that they are expensive and not as responsive as a branck in an operators hands.

Isn't another alternative to a crew deck running a hoseline to the cab and sitting in the back seat spraying water out the window?

I'm sure I saw Cudlee Creek 24 sitting in Stirling station during the Mt Osmond fire, but I don't see a vision to fit out the entire state with 750 GPM pumps and rescue stowage...

We can't build an appliance that'll make everyone happy...
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: Alan J on December 07, 2011, 10:17:43 AM
And that's the point - we can't build one appliance that will make everyone happy.
Or even two.
Since our SFECs are based purely on our own local hazards, and
since 99% of jobs most appliances will ever attend are in their home area,
it makes sense to build most suitable for that area.

This more readily achieved with 4 standard heavy 4WD appliances than just two.
As with the original plastic fantastics, their workings can be made so nearly
the same that any competent operator could work any appliance without brain strain.

Oh, and Dave P - you didn't see Cherry Gardens at OTH.  Would have been Cherryville.
Cherry Gardens was initially paged in error, but stopped before they could join
the strike team...  ;-).

Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: kiwifirefighter on August 04, 2012, 04:30:26 AM
Hs anyone seen the new prototype 24 in the flesh yet.  From the picture in infralog, there looks to be a lot of wasted space on the rear of the appliance by other positioning of the pump
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: Shiner on August 04, 2012, 09:31:39 AM
But the east-west pump mounting means the truck is 300mm shorter which should make it better off road?
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: Pipster on August 04, 2012, 08:38:29 PM
or fits better into some existing stations...... ?

Pip
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: BundyBear on October 06, 2012, 05:17:30 PM
I think the CFS needs to have a standardised fleet, brigades going out and doing their own thing should be pulled in. What CFS brigades respond to if you looked at the frequency and severity are not unique or special incidents in the main, if you sat down put a decent case study together and risk assessed their claims I feel most would fall over.

You could simply achieve a good fleet by building the appliances listed below or similar and have solid review systems in place before each build contract is put into place to ensure continuous improvement.

• QAV - 4wd ute
• Light Rural - 1000L 4wd crew deck
• Heavy Rural - 3000L 4wd crew deck 2 x CABA
• Urban/Rural - 2000L 4wd no crew deck larger pump, 4 x CABA and RCR if required.
• Pumper - 2wd larger pump again, longer hose reels, 4 x CABA, and RCR if required and strategically placed at large rural centres and the urban fringe.

Then you could look at strategically placing purpose built HAZMAT and Heavy Rescue tenders across the state to provide coverage to country SA.
Just an idea!

Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: Pipster on October 06, 2012, 09:47:39 PM
And how about adding a 44 to that mix... lots of water, bugger all equipment - which is all a large number of single appliances stations across the state could do with...

Add to that a number of smaller stations in the Adelaide Hills (like mine!) that need something small enough to get around the area, but large enough to carry say 2 BA (currently rural - urban classification, as opposed to urban - rural!)

And again, many areas need Bulk Water carriers,

The list you have there BundyBear is pretty close to the fleet that CFS builds now (although one could argue the numbers of each type being allocated could be changed!)

Pip
Title: Re: New 24 prototype
Post by: BundyBear on October 14, 2012, 09:02:55 PM
Yeah agree with a 44 would be benefical to remote brigades and agree the types are close to what we see but I'd look at alterations to locker layout,pump sizes, engine sizes, the overall quality of the fleet being built considering fire appliances stay in service for some time. Also dont get into that whole rural/urban - urban/rural thing kind of like CFS SFEC's a very old joke!

Tankers or BWC sorry left them off the list but pretty much required without saying.

An example is the 34P, most I've seen are located on the urban fringe and larger rural centres (probably could have pumpers, but I'll leave that alone). On those you could question the crew deck, the locker layout is apalling, pumps could be bigger and soon as they need to climb a decent hill they're embarrassing. Plus look at the build quality some are put together badly!

Also definately agree with your statement of overhaulling the system into where, what and why appliances are located. Plus a better fllet roation system, does a new appliance need to go to a brigade that turns out bugger all?