SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: canman on February 05, 2006, 01:26:14 PM
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Apologies if this or something similar has been discussed previously.
I was curious to how many people on this forum respond (with their brigade) to tree(s) on the road?
Are we responding to more of these type incidents than ever before?
Is it our job to respond to these type of jobs? Is it an emergency?
Any thoughts?
:?
K
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I guess it's prevention work. Stops cars having accidents if the tree is cleaned up.
It is probably an SES or Council job but if SES may have an extended response time or there are no local ses then CFS is more than capable. Plus I know a few CFS people who love the free wood... :-D
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This is a council job and traffic control is a police job,we only get used as cheap labour time to send an account to the local council and the cops.....
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Yep, always done this kind of thing.
Refused to do a tree down in a private yard the other day.
No urgency, no risk to anyone's safety just a clear case of trying to get basic maintenance done for nothing.
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Heard a comment from an SES volly a few weeks after some storm damage we assisted them with referring to some of the calls they received. (In particular a broken tile on a roof i think).
"Can't believe the nerve of some people, think we might change our name to the State Convenience Service".
Had to laugh. :-D
Sounds too familiar thou.
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the SES take most tree jobs around our area. however every brigade in the group carries a chainsaw somewhere. most of the time its a 10 minute job and i dont mind clearing it as far as the side of the road.... (just to make it safe).
As for trees in houses and storm jobs etc..... well dont mind helping people who help themselves. On several occasions I have left stuff with occupants with instructions of how to remedy the problem until it can be fixed properly. Have passed on a few jobs as well.... after all crew safety comes first.
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New standards for SES are being trialled by volunteer ops staff before the move to MFS call-taking. Below is still being formulated so not totally accurate.
Basically if:
* tree on ground and not causing danger or risk=caller to contact commercial tree lopper.
* council tree not causing danger/risk=caller to contact council.
* tree on house=SES or CFS.
* tree on power lines=ETSA then SES or CFS
If the tree is on a road and a road accident is possible because of the tree, contact SAPOL for coverage of road then SES will page a Unit.
The 'tree branch threatening to fall on house' is the difficult one to assess. Sometimes we will request that a SES Unit recce first.
The times when the rules are sometimes bent are when a disabled/elderly person calls requesting assistance.
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We do it as a community service . Would rather go to a quick tree job instead of a car crash. Just a job we always do any time any day.
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Went to a tree on a drive once, we did the PR thing and moved and cut up. The owner then asked us to take the tree with us. I said we don't do that. The owner said we could put on top of the truck. She was getting a bit mad
ahhh you do the right thing and you get that
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Went to a tree on a drive once, we did the PR thing and moved and cut up. The owner then asked us to take the tree with us. I said we don't do that. The owner said we could put on top of the truck. She was getting a bit mad
ahhh you do the right thing and you get that
During major storm operations we get that quite often. Makes you wonder if it was a cheap way to remove the tree instead of using a tree lopper or commercial gardner.
During recent floods had people calling to take the sandbags away after danger had passed.
Both job types were refused.
Worse one is when a 'tree is threatening' & it turns to be a stable tree that the owner wants removed (& maybe council have refused them issuing permit).
Hopefully, the new call-taker procedures will reduce the callouts to emergency taskings only. But not everything is perfect.....
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This is a council job and traffic control is a police job, we only get used as cheap labour time to send an account to the local council and the cops.....
I Have To Agree With That Comment, I Don't Mind Helping Out Though.
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It's funny the way units or brigades are paged for tree jobs. The closest ses to goolwa is South Coast at Port elliot which is about 12kms or 30-40mins response time, yet they get most of the tree jobs in Goolwa, we still do about 30% of them but we are only 10 minutes away, trust me in the middle of the night i'd much rather be in bed than chopping up a tree but it makes me wonder if a tree is on a road why not respond the closest or both services to deal with the problem. With a hazardous situation surely 10 miuntes to get to a job is better than 30-40???
But as for trees on houses that is an SES role but if the tree is not causing a hazard on a road or to someones property then we usually turn the job down.
We had a job recently where a tree branch had fallen on a road and another was threatning to fall in a persons back yard but was of no threat to anyone or any property so we removed the tree on the road but told the owner he had to deal with the hanging branch himself he wasn't to happy but when we said we'd move it for a donation he refused (can't help but try :-))
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If a tree has fallen along a road and a vehicle travelling at 100kmph comes along, then it might not have a chance to avoid it. Then we'd be called out for a car accident. So I believe it's with good reason we're called out. I don't think we should have to chop up wood, take it away, or anything (unless some of our crew want free firewood).
I'm a member of Kangarilla, and we attend Tree Down's quite regularly. I dont think we should of been called because of the tree is in no way threatening life (like when it's fallen down across somebody's fence and they want us to fix it), but if it's along a road where it could potentially cause an accident then I don't have any problem with it. It's just preventing somebody that could be worse. That's why we do burn offs isn't it?
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New standards for SES are being trialled by volunteer ops staff before the move to MFS call-taking. Below is still being formulated so not totally accurate.
Basically if:
* tree on ground and not causing danger or risk=caller to contact commercial tree lopper.
* council tree not causing danger/risk=caller to contact council.
* tree on house=SES or CFS.
* tree on power lines=ETSA then SES or CFS
If the tree is on a road and a road accident is possible because of the tree, contact SAPOL for coverage of road then SES will page a Unit.
The 'tree branch threatening to fall on house' is the difficult one to assess. Sometimes we will request that a SES Unit recce first.
The times when the rules are sometimes bent are when a disabled/elderly person calls requesting assistance.
So who do you think should go in MFS (Full-time) areas? MFS are there (and being paid to be) or SES vols?
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The MFS should be at the station in case there is something dangerous or a proper call comes in. leave tree's to the CFS, SES or council.
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Ah nope... The closest most appropriate resource should go.
MFS will have a change of quaters to cover their area if the job is extended. This is in the context of trees on roads though. Trees on houses etc. is different and should be SES.
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The MFS should be at the station in case there is something dangerous or a proper call comes in. leave tree's to the CFS, SES or council.
a Dangerous or Proper call... ... The word Rookie is written all over that post.. !
A simple tree down can turn into anything... (MVA's, Structural collapse / damage, entrapments (either by the tree itself, or via it falling on a house, etc)...
If it is MFS area, and an IMMEDIATE risk is clear to the Coms Taker, the MFS should go.. Even if its not immediate risk, they have chain saws, they are paid to get up at 2am if it is in their area !!
And any way, I think you will find the MFS will be turning out to a majority of the new jobs any way.. What better way to ask for more funding if suddenly you are doing an additional 5000 jobs or more a year !!
(I can see alot of new chain saws !!)
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If there is a CFS or SES crew in the area then the call should go to them. if there is no CFS or SES then give it the mets. If someone's house burnt down and a person died cause the MFS were cutting up a tree and it took the other MFS appliance too long to get there then people wont be happy.
I think "dangerous or proper call" came out wrong. You know what I mean...
I am a rookie so can do rookie posts. :-D
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Oh, i sorta see where you are coming from.
However MFS have something called COQ (Change of Quarters). Where if an appliance is going to be at a job for a prolonged time (even anything more than 15 minutes) - A neighbouring truck goes and sits in its spot, and the gapes get filled.. So for the next call, the truck would probably come from the station like it would any way..
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I was gonna ask about COQ. When one Gawler (example) goes to a call out and Elizabeth (I assume they would do the COQ as closest) come down to gawler who back Elizabeth? (Answer my own question) I guess Salisbury would cover them but then who covers Salisbury etc. Does everyone move down to back up cause Gawler is at a house fire, or cutting up trees :-P
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Eliz or Sails have 2 trucks, I believe both might. So its a bit easier. But one pump stations, the next station will fill in, and so on, and so on.
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The MFS should be at the station in case there is something dangerous or a proper call comes in. leave tree's to the CFS, SES or council.
So What We Don't Do Proper Calls? Don't We All Do The Same Job?
If someone's house burnt down and a person died cause the MFS were cutting up a tree and it took the other MFS appliance too long to get there then people wont be happy.
If someone's house burnt down and a person died cause the CFS were cutting up a tree and it took the other CFS appliance too long to get there then people wont be happy.
If It Was A House Fire I Think The Tree Down Would Be Put On The Back Burner, Or Quickly Put Into A Safe State, While Other Appliances Were Responded To The House Fire.
Remember We Both Do The Same Job.
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P F. COQ cascades north, generally not towards the city. So if Gawler are at concordia helping with a vehicle accident. An Elizabeth applaince will be at Gawler station and A Salisbury appliance may move to Elizabeth etc etc.. SAMFS comms manage this pretty well and make sure no stations area is without coverage. When SAMFS have big jobs CFS brigades do COQ to MFS stations.
So trees on roads should be attended by the closest most appropriate resource :-) :-)
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So who do you think should go in MFS (Full-time) areas? MFS are there (and being paid to be) or SES vols?
Totally agree if the risk is high and immediate, then the most appropriate and quickest resource should be available.
This happened during the 2005 major storm events in metro Adelaide when MFS, CFS & SAPOL liaison officers were utilised within the SES State Control Centre.
Then if required, specialised equipment or resources to be dispatched if the first responder cannot resolve the situation.
This happened when MFS, CFS, SAPOL, SES Dog squad, etc provided reconnaissance and simple clean up or make safe. Then SES crews provided specialised equipment (eg vertical rope anchors, cherry picker truck, pole chain saw, etc) when the tasking was beyond first responder. This included when ETSA crews cleared power, but not enough equipment to make safe.
Working together is always going to be the best way.
But for my info, would you prefer to send a paid MFS person to every tree/storm task in the metro Adelaide area or leave it with an SES volunteer ? The same would be asked for major regional centres (eg Whyalla, Mt Gambier, Pt Augusta, etc).
Personally, I would leave it to the volunteer and save the budget money for more equipment & training resources. Let the paid MFS continue to provide primary response to fire and RCR.
But then I am an SES volunteer so this opinion could be protecting my own patch. =;)
I would be interested in other peoples opinion. :?
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Personally, I would leave it to the volunteer and save the budget money for more equipment & training resources. Let the paid MFS continue to provide primary response to fire and RCR.
it does noy cost mfs that much more to cut up a tree that is on the road/house/ fence where ever,
they still are paying there fireys the same when they are asleep at station or on a job, all it would cost them is the fuel to run the chain saw and the truck,
the government would have to pay that no matter who they send .
i thnik if it is in there area get them out of bed to do the job
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Cyber I know we all do the same job.
With the CFS/MFS switching around my post about a house fire I know that both can do it but I was focusing specifically on MFS. if there is a CFs in an area or SES give them the tree. My post has been taken the wrong I think, but thats okay. To re-iterate if there is a CFs or SES or even council in the area give them the tree job. I am not trying to under esitmate CFS by giving them a tree cause we all do the same job ( :wink:) but, that smy opinion anyway. If there was a tree in the Adleiade Parklands that fell on one of the city ring roads or a tree in suburban adelaide backyard then you can send out MFS but in an area where all operate then give it to CFS or SES.
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:?
righto.... i think your extremely wrong,
since tree downs are (in theory) an SES tasking then yes... definitely give it to them... in reality the only reason CFS/MFS actually attend tree down jobs is becasue occasionally they come through on a CFS or MFS line, instead of SES...
now, in regards to sending a CFS appliance to a tree job to keep an MFS appliance available.. i pose this question...
"what the hell are you thinking???"
i actually had a friend come up to me yesterday and say "so you guys (CFS)actually go to house fires???" P_F if you have the same perspective of some of the public that we (the CFS) only do little jobs and leave the "serious" firefighting to the MFS... then what the hell kind of chance do we have. get real... the CFS is THE FIRE SERVICE that covers a helluva lot of the state.
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since tree downs are (in theory) an SES tasking then yes... definitely give it to them... in reality the only reason CFS/MFS actually attend tree down jobs is becasue occasionally they come through on a CFS or MFS line, instead of SES...
Er, challenge.
CFS has far more units covering a much greater area.
CFS attend tree down jobs in many areas because there is no SES
coverage or the nearest unit is 200kms away.
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I am fully aware that we all do exactly the same job's as the MFS and we are both the fire service.
About sending CFS to a job instead of MFS has been mis-understood. In an area that both are covered I believe that the SES or CFS should take it.
IN the town a house fire is sent to MFS first, we come in as a back up team. (if there is dual coverage) CFS are more than cpable of handling a tree, I just think we should take it instead of the MFS. Really do no see the harm in that statement. Dont think tree's in dual area's are really the MFS domain.
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Er, challenge.
CFS has far more units covering a much greater area.
CFS attend tree down jobs in many areas because there is no SES
coverage or the nearest unit is 200kms away.
it is stillan SES role though kat... thus why it should be sent to SES units, regardless of the distance from them...
SES units actually carry a number of differant tools for tree jobs, not just the basic chainsaw CFS trucks carry...
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Agree. But surely makes sense to send a chainsaw equipped CFS Brigade to a threatening "tree down" situation as a primary response when the nearest SES unit is over an hour away.
68 SES units in SA, 400+ fire stations.
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When SAMFS have big jobs CFS brigades do COQ to MFS stations.
So if there was a massive fire in Adleiade or surrounding area's, Im talkin 4th alarm big one! Then CFS crews would move into the MFS stations and stay there covering that area until the MFS come back?
Edit: found a COQ thread in Incident operations, Ill put my question in there :-)
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There has been some genuine passionate replies to this thread and all have been interesting. Me personally, I think it should be SES or an emergency response from the local council that deal with these types of calls. And as for the debate over MFS/CFS responding, if the job's in your patch then your it.
I have just noticed an increase of these type of calls over the years, especially with a couple of brigades in my group. Some of which have also responded to horses or cows on the road (now theres a can of worms for ya). Soon we'll be responding to water on the road...lol.
I just hope it isn't the "we pay the emergency service levy so we can respond you to what we want" syndrome. Or maybe it's the local brigade receiving the call via ALERTS and can't say no factor.
K
ps Assisting SES during multiple calls like storm damage i don't have a problem with. Good to get together every now and then.
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ON the pager site he other day there was to page about a koala on the SE Freeway.....
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Yeah saw that one......
Didn't they respond Smokey to entice it off the road??
k
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There has been some genuine passionate replies to this thread and all have been interesting. Me personally, I think it should be SES or an emergency response from the local council that deal with these types of calls. And as for the debate over MFS/CFS responding, if the job's in your patch then your it.
I have just noticed an increase of these type of calls over the years, especially with a couple of brigades in my group. Some of which have also responded to horses or cows on the road (now theres a can of worms for ya). Soon we'll be responding to water on the road...lol.
I just hope it isn't the "we pay the emergency service levy so we can respond you to what we want" syndrome. Or maybe it's the local brigade receiving the call via ALERTS and can't say no factor.
K
ps Assisting SES during multiple calls like storm damage i don't have a problem with. Good to get together every now and then.
What's your thoughts on the fact that it would take quite alot longer to remove a tree which has the potential to cause vehicle accidents? Do you still think it should be the SES/councils job?
I agree totally about the "we pay the emergency service levy so we can respond you to what we want" syndrome.. I have been at callout's where we've had people have trees fall across their driveway or fence though, which doesn't cause any immediate danger.. and they have a go at us for telling them to call a tree logger or something.. Some people think that because they pay their levy then we have to do that type of stuff.
LOL at the Smokey comment hehe
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What's your thoughts on the fact that it would take quite alot longer to remove a tree which has the potential to cause vehicle accidents? Do you still think it should be the SES/councils job?
Yes.
Maybe we should respond CFS to everything SES go to because we can get there quicker in most cases (sarcasm).
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Yes.
Maybe we should respond CFS to everything SES go to because we can get there quicker in most cases (sarcasm).
Isn't speed important when it has a potential to harm what we're supposed to protect.. with Life being one of them? If we can remove a tree on a busy country road in 10 minutes, which would take the SES 60 minutes to get to, then we're reducing the chance of a bad car accident by a multiple of 6..
However.. to each their own.. Not everyone will agree on everything..
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In further response to P.F's comments. My optinion only
Both MFS and CFS have a job to do, wether it be as a professional paid service or as a volunteer service. Both services respond to the same nature of incidents, within limits of equipment and training capabilities. Any one incident/call/page is and should be treated with the same urgency. Be it a tree down in Unley, a house fire in Wudinna, or anything in between. The nearest and most practical service should be responded. No legitimate call to any fire service should be passed to another service on the principle of "what if something bigger comes along". As previously mentioned, if another call does comes along that is deemed to be of greater urgency, then the current incident would be made safe and crews responded asap to the next job. Taking into account COQ, the next job may already be adequately covered anyway. If a tree down is considered to be hazardous, then the nearest service, or the service that can respond the quickest, should be sent. Be it MFS, CFS or SES. In areas that are covered by both CFS and MFS, mostly referred to as EMA areas (Enhanced Mutual Aid), both services will be responded equally to most incidents, including house fires. My limited experience would suggest it is the task of the MFS Comcen call taker to determine wether a tree down in a
EMA area best be attended by CFS, MFS or SES. There could be a number of different criteria taken into account to make that decision, including risk, urgency, location, availability of services etc etc
The notion that MFS are the big boys, and the CFS are the smaller brother who asks if he can play, is ignorant. Just because CFS is volly based, doesn't mean that they should leave the urban responses to the Mets, and vica versa for the Mets with trees down etc. They do carry chainsaws too.
I get the impression that PF feels that the term "Metropolitan" and "Country" in the titles of the services determines the type of tasking each should undertake. I know CFS means "Country" Fire Service, but that dosn't mean that a tree down is automatically their task, and that Mets should leave it. In a EMA area, either could respond.
that my 2 cents anyway (actually, more like 22 cents!)
I am a CFS Volly.
Cheers :-D
Sorry about the long winded response.
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I agree with that calspec, but what said about more dangerous jobs for the MFS has been blown out a bit, I didnt specifically mean it as they are not worthy of cutting up a tree. Originally this topic was about CFS doing it so we were happy for them to do it and suddenyl it seems wrong... I have no problem with MFS dealing with a tree, they had to deal with a busted hydrant yesterday.
Now for some more coments that might land me in hot water.
I think MFS are a more highly trained and skilled brigade. It is a lot harder to get into MFS than CFS and the training you do once in the MFS (after passing the recruitment process) is I would assume a lot harder than BFF1. I know they are the same as a fire service but the MFS are different from the CFS. I am in the CFS and I love it, am in no way wishing to downgrade the CFS as we do do the same as the MFS, but I just dont really think they can be made out ot be the same. I hope to be in the MFS one-day and work with both teams, maybe cut up a few trees. 8-)
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Now for some more coments that might land me in hot water.
I think MFS are a more highly trained and skilled brigade.
you are a nob.
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It also depends on part of the state you come from. Here its MFS do it in there area CFS in there SES any where council said its not there job if its across the road or after hours.
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If the call comes on fire service line, then MFS for MFS area, CFS for CFS area... if call on SES line then SES regardless of where it is, they sort out wether its council job or not (which it is if it is a council tree... thats why they have an after hours emergency number)
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Ok lots of things comming out in this thread....
PF
Now for some more coments that might land me in hot water.
I think MFS are a more highly trained and skilled brigade.
With the advent of nationally accredited training and the push for CFS to be a professional service, this seems like a very un-enlightened comment. I can only hope that as you get more experience in this service that those opinions will change. just remember there are a lot of people that are striving to make this service one of the best in the world, and that particular comment is a kick in the guts to them. :-(
Get out there get some more time under your belt, and look at this thread in a couple of years time. See if you still agree with your previous comments :-)
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Ive said before that I am proudly a member of both services (CFS and SES), and quite frankly, if I dont have to drive an hour to get to a tree because a CFS brigade is closer, then Im quite happy for them to do a tree job. No skin off my nose at all. After all it removes an immediate threat why is it being questioned.
**this specifically relates to trees on roads**
trees in back yards etc, well if there is no specific threat and we dont need extra hands then, leave it to the SES. They will quite happily assess weather its a job for them or not.
In the end its the same for any incident.
you respond the closest available resource that has the ability to sufficiently deal with the problem at the time..... it cascades from there....
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Isn't speed important when it has a potential to harm what we're supposed to protect.. with Life being one of them? If we can remove a tree on a busy country road in 10 minutes, which would take the SES 60 minutes to get to, then we're reducing the chance of a bad car accident by a multiple of 6..
However.. to each their own.. Not everyone will agree on everything..
During the past 12 months plus all SES Units are reviewing response times. Majority of SES Units will now have a vehicle on the road within an average of 10 minutes. Especially the RCR crews.
In the past I believe SES Units were very bad in response times. But I believe majority of SES Units are equal to other organisations now.
Some SES Units still have a looooong response time and they are known to operations staff. This problem is specially during working day-time & is actively being addressed by SHQ & Central Region staff.
If it is deemed a life threat situation, then the quickest response to 'make the situation safe' is requested.
In metropolitan Adelaide this is normally SAPOL who assess and secure the site with lights and cones.
In the country areas the closest & quickest emergency service will be despatched to the scene to make the situation safe. Then additional resources will be despatched to resolve the problem safely.
Interesting reading this thread & fantastic to know we work together as a team of trained professionals.
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In further response to P.F's comments. My optinion only
Both MFS and CFS have a job to do, wether it be as a professional paid service or as a volunteer service.
You did mean to say : Both MFS and CFS have a job to do, wether it be as a professional paid service or as a professional volunteer service. Didn't you??
I know CFS means "Country" Fire Service, but that doesn't mean that a tree down is automatically their task,
Couldn't agree more.
The very reason we respond priority 2 to these types of incidents would indicate to me there or no real urgency to get to these jobs. We could list a number of scenarios that have potential to escalate but it doesn't mean the fire service should be called upon for all of them. Unfortunately all calls aren't received in one dept (eg MFS 000), if they were someone could have better control over what service went to what job.
k
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.....Unfortunately all calls aren't received in one dept (eg MFS 000), if they were someone could have better control over what service went to what job.
k
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This will be interesting for near metropolitan Adelaide after 20th March 2006. This is the latest announced date when MFS Comm Centre will take over 'day to day' call receipt & dispatch for SES.
If a large event or risk, then SES will take-over own 132500 calls in the new SES SCC. Otherwise MFS will process call.
So for the first time 000 calls can be directed to SES without a third-party involved...and one Comms Centre will take near metro Adelaide calls for CFS, SES & MFS.
Personally I think this will be a test for the SACAD project idea. Will be interesting to monitor the results. 8-)
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During the past 12 months plus all SES Units are reviewing response times. Majority of SES Units will now have a vehicle on the road within an average of 10 minutes. Especially the RCR crews.
In the past I believe SES Units were very bad in response times. But I believe majority of SES Units are equal to other organisations now.
Our local SES are an RCR unit and i can tell you their response times are shocking!! We've been called to a job with them seven minutes after they were called and we were on scene 15 minutes before them their response time was 36 minutes for an MVA.
This crew has found a way around the default plan, we were called recently to another MVA where they defaulted as we were driving out the door we were stopped because they were mobile. 20 minutes after this stop, one of our members was going to work near this accident and as he drove into port elliot the SES were only just driving out for the accident.
When it came over their pagers they had been defaulted to us they came up on air to SHQ that they were mobile.
This seems to be the norm for this unit, the first person comes up on air to SHQ and says South Coast 410 on air and responding, thus all communications are done through their unit. By doing this within the 6-7 minutes from page they negate being defaulted and roll a truck whenever they get enough crew which can take anything up to 25-30 minutes and then if they are called to back us up and are stop called they stil rock up with all the bells and whistles and state that they can't be stop called by CFS and that they are rescue, personally if they want to make fools of themselves then thats their problem but to respond the way they do will endanger peoples lives! :x
Sorry for going off the tree topic but SES down here act as a law unto themselves and it's bullcrap!! :|
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Ahhh sometimes the perfect example falls in your lap..
From the GRN pager website.
10:23:22 09-02-06 INFO:MTB: 09 Feb 10:23 Crew required for tree at Crafers - call DO on
10:19:20 09-02-06 SHQ: URGMSG ADELAIDE HILLS RESPOND TREE DOWN (PRIVATE PROPERTY) - - CFS HAVE ATTENDED; TREE TOO LARGE FOR THERE EQUIPMENT; THEY ARE LEAVING SCENE
10:01:40 09-02-06 MFS: RESPOND Tree Down 09/02/06 10:01,13 STACEY ST,CRAFERS, MAP 145 J 6 ,,,9019*CFSRES:
The closest emergency service responded to recce/assess/make safe, then followed with specialised resource.
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MUNDCFS, hopefully SES Central Region and SES SHQ staff have heard about this and are resolving the problem.
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MUNDCFS, hopefully SES Central Region and SES SHQ staff have heard about this and are resolving the problem.
Exactly.
If this is a continuing issue then it needs to be put through the relevant process (i know we've all heard it before!!)
However, there is 1 small technicallity to what you have said.
The 6 minute default is not to get a truck out the door. It is intended as a check to make sure a page has actually been sent. So, in theory, whilst we may not consider it good practice... they are doing the "right thing".
If that is what there are doing I dont agree with it, simply pointing something out......
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good example to Bajdas..... its amazing what you find sometimes :-D
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mikes completely correct mundcfs...
6minutes is the time a unit has to acknowledge page, not to role a truck... of course it is up to the unit/brigade to use there brains and defualt within a reasonable time.
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Now for some more comments that might land me in hot water.
I think MFS are a more highly trained and skilled brigade.
you are a nob.
Medevac - you are a little too kind and polite.
P F - a subtle suggestion - before you post again, go and do some research, go out and learn about the different roles of the emergency services, the different equipment, training and alike and you will soon see a lot of the equipment is the same - yes the same equipment, the training is the same - and so it should be CFS wrote a lot of it and MFS have adopted it and legislatively we have the same responsabilities.
Funny thing really - two fire services doing the same thing in different areas!
Professionalism is a state of mind, not a rate of pay.
Or simply - we are both professional fire services and as you are testament too, we both have ill informed, under educated and non-professional members ......!
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Well I have boiled myself in water and probably lost a lo of respect form people here (if there was any in the first place :-P)
But seriously the MFS are a litle more professional in certain area's. Now I relaise I have to hold back and not say which area's as I would be shooting myself in the head!
Can believe all this came out of just a simple comment that tree's shouldn't really bve an MFS task.
I do know we are all a professional fire service, but CFS can not be compared to MFS all the time. We are not the MFS and maybe I should stop making ocmments in this thread about this topic as they get mis-understood and all this arguing comes about. But since forums are a place for opinion I believe it is a little harsh to make personal comments about an opinion and internet text can be "read" how-ever the reader decides....
I am doing a project on the SAMFS for Work Ed. class and can see similarities and differences in all.
as you are testament too, we both have ill informed, under educated and non-professional members ......!
you are a nob
:| Every one to their own opinion, I am not out to worry about peoples opinions on a computer but when the pager goes off and I go to an incident I would be professional at all times and when training also. I do love and enjoy being part of the CFS and that will not stop. Medevac, I hope you read the rest of my message to see why I made the comment.
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I know I am in experienced in CFS and MFS knowledge and readily admit that, but to be homest some of my comments have been taken a little to literally and read wrong. I appologise for all the crap the MFS shouldnt do tree's posts that has occured, I did not intend to start an argument over how much CFS and MFS are alike cause they are not.
It's all opinion and interpretation anyway. I am proud to be a CFS member and in no way wish to undermine what CFS do. I also hope to get into the MFS one day. MFS and CFs likeness is quite a strong topic with everyone having differing opininons, that is all this is an opinion to be taken howver you choose to take it. Most of my ocmments in this thread have not been welcomed or liked, that is fine I dont mind, but there is no need for the crap that has ocme out of all this. I appologise for any wrong information I have written, but dont appologise for opinion.
thankyou for reading if youse did
P F
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Its all a big learning curve for ya PF...... Im sure youll understand in good time. As youve said many times, your new to the game. Our aim should be to guide and teach you in the ways of the CFS (and preferably not try to bury ya in the process ;) hehe)
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Interesting thread. Let's play nice though and remember we all started out once and have different takes on the world.
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mikes completely correct mundcfs...
6minutes is the time a unit has to acknowledge page, not to role a truck... of course it is up to the unit/brigade to use there brains and defualt within a reasonable time.
Yes sorry understand how it works but as you said if they used some brains... it's a pity that sometimes it only takes a few people to ruin or stain working relationships between services :cry:
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In further response to P.F's comments. My optinion only
Both MFS and CFS have a job to do, wether it be as a professional paid service or as a volunteer service.
You did mean to say : Both MFS and CFS have a job to do, wether it be as a professional paid service or as a professional volunteer service. Didn't you??
My use of the term "Professional" was in reference only to that the MFS get paid to carry out those tasks, as in a professional golfer gets paid to play golf. It was not in any way referring to the nature in which the services carry out their tasks. Substitute "career" in place on "professional" for that post. :-D
I hope that as time goes on and PF gains some extremely beneficial experience, he will understand that both services are intent on supplying the same professional quality service, with essentially the same equipment and training, and attending exactly the same jobs. I also appreciate that full time employed members of the Mets will probably spend more time training, attend more jobs than individuals in the CFS, and as a result may be able to carry out some tasks with greater efficiency, proficiency and ease and may be affected less by adrenalin or stress than a CFS Firey - but that won't apply in all cases.
We have a career Mets firey in our CFS brigade and theere are many volunteer members of our service who are as proficient and experienced as he, and other Mets fireys.
In the meantime, PF, I suggest avoiding any reference to MFS being better than CFS in any way! :wink:
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That's OK CALSPEC I knew what you meant. :-)
k
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I agree with that calspec, but what said about more dangerous jobs for the MFS has been blown out a bit, I didnt specifically mean it as they are not worthy of cutting up a tree. Originally this topic was about CFS doing it so we were happy for them to do it and suddenyl it seems wrong... I have no problem with MFS dealing with a tree, they had to deal with a busted hydrant yesterday.
Now for some more coments that might land me in hot water.
I think MFS are a more highly trained and skilled brigade. It is a lot harder to get into MFS than CFS and the training you do once in the MFS (after passing the recruitment process) is I would assume a lot harder than BFF1. I know they are the same as a fire service but the MFS are different from the CFS. I am in the CFS and I love it, am in no way wishing to downgrade the CFS as we do do the same as the MFS, but I just dont really think they can be made out ot be the same. I hope to be in the MFS one-day and work with both teams, maybe cut up a few trees. 8-)
You tell your self that when ur crawling through a fully involved house fire !... Or after you walk out of the Compartment Fire Behv. Cell .. Tell ur self that when your watching some one being cut out of a car , screaming, and crying.... Lots to learn...
(But granted, at least ur willing...)
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I dont mean theyre different in the jobs they do. I wont go into it as its best to zip the lips.
Yep I want to learn all that I can, just hope I dont cause anymore offence in the process.
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my brigade goes to a few tree jobs. some are pathetic things that barely deserve the title tree. i remember on the night of the big floods in the hills someone called in a fallen tree n when we go there it was a wattle bush that would've been a metre in diameter. I recall us just pushing it off the road, didn't even need cutting.
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my brigade (upper sturt) goes to a few tree jobs. some are pathetic things that barely deserve the title tree. i remember on the night of the big floods in the hills someone called in a fallen tree n when we go there it was a wattle bush that would've been a metre in diameter. I recall us just pushing it off the road, didn't even need cutting.
Nice to see someone get back to the topic at hand. :-D
k
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we get that a lot aswell probie. Sometimes people just dont want to get out their cars when you could pick it up and throw it to the side. A lot of times we have got there to find someone has done it for us.
- at least we dont have to get out in the cold if they do ;)
tree, stick or twig. thats what the call taker should ask....
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We have been trained in asking the caller regards size of the tree or limb. Most people cannot estimate size very well (myself included).
So we actually ask 'could you hug the tree trunk or limb ?' and 'how many steps from one end to the other ?'.
The tree hug question normally gives a stunned silence and works in concentrating the caller on specifics, rather than details in how the tree fell. If they can hug the tree, then about 1m diameter or less.
We estimate each step to be 0.8m in length.
Always a problem to allocate time to get specifics of the task compared to limit the time taken to answer the call so that you can answer the next telephone.
But the more information you can give the crew, the better.
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I was driving (only about 500m from the brigade) and rounded a corner to find a hay bale in the road to the left! came back along the road and it was gone, but could ahve been dangerous.
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Saw another good example on the pager site yesterday about why the closest resource should be responded. South C. SES were called to a tree down over the road at Yundi at about 7am yesterday, Yundi is about 40kms from Port Elliot, 20 minutes after the page they were still looking for crew.
I think that is ridiculous obviously a job like that is causing a hazard and there are probably 4-5 chainsaw equipped brigades closer to that job than them, why wouldn't they respond any of those with SES to get the job done instead of waiting for an hour for the crew to get there. :|
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if the call is recieved by CFS SOCC on an SES line then an SES unit is dispatched regardless of distance (to a point) unless SOCC feels there is an immediate life/property threat or some other outstanding circumstance...
distance isnt a factor if the area is listed as acertain unit/brigades area...
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Thanks mack for the info - does pose a question though and also some consideration into the risk assessment undertaken by the call taker.
Yundi covers an area of the Adelaide/Victor Rd plus many others with signed speed limits at 100km - large tree on some of those windy roads would be interesting - for cars, let alone the many milk tankers that travel on those roads.
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if the call is recieved by CFS SOCC on an SES line then an SES unit is dispatched regardless of distance (to a point) unless SOCC feels there is an immediate life/property threat or some other outstanding circumstance...
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if the call is received by CFS SOCC on an SES line then an SES unit is dispatched regardless of distance (to a point) unless SOCC feels there is an immediate life/property threat or some other outstanding circumstance...
Yep - and I guess the SOCC operators know every road in each area across the state!
Don't get me wrong, I support the SOCC staff 110%. however what I question is 'appropriate response', duty of care and risk assessment - unfortunately call takers are now, like the rest of us, burdened by bureaucracy, written agreements and red tape
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thats true OzFire- the OCOs have SOPs but they do also have brains as well...
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you would think - and hope that logic comes into play here wouldn't you?
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you would think - and hope that logic comes into play here wouldn't you?
Unfortunately, logic is governed by red tape........... :evil:
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i dont see an issue with the correct service, being responded to a job.
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Sorry to bring up an old thread but I'm just curious if Onka SES based at lobethal do any jobs at all??
I know their rescue truck is always filled with CFS personnel for MVA's but you never see them paged for other storm damage type calls!!!
All CFS brigades in that area seem to do the tree down jobs even though it's "primarily" (don't bash me) an SES role....
Today for example woodside were responded to a tree on house, but if that were to happen in say Blackwood or Barker etc...etc... SES would be responded??? What the???
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im not entirley sure whether Onkaparinga SES actually "exist" or not at the moment... or what there status is. all 'ses' jobs in there primary area tend to just go direct to CFS brigades. and as many oppl have pointed out, the ppl that crew the SES RCR truck are CFS vollies from loby... tis odd
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I believe Onka have been told to "pull their socks up" and stop treating it as "freebies for the CFS" for want of better wording....
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When ever a tree falls over road during severe weather it usually lands on both sides of an imaginary CFS/SES response border which does result in confusion most times
In the Wattle Range Division we have 3 services who deal with trees on road
1. Country Fire Service
2. State Emergency Service
3. Wattle Range District Council Rapid Response
Most times if trees fall on road close to a non chainsaw brigade it's always up to the brigades who have chainsaws to respond which makes it hard as these brigades may already be committed to another incident therefore delaying the removal of trees off the road