SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: samfs on September 13, 2007, 04:10:05 PM
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i think cfs members should be on some sort of retainer.as most cfs members go above and beyond there duty i have worked with cfs many times and all of which are very professional.to ALL cfs members well done thanks for the great help
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No cause the government cant afford it and volunteers by definition do not get paid...
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i think cfs members should be on some sort of retainer.as most cfs members go above and beyond there duty i have worked with cfs many times and all of which are very professional.to ALL cfs members well done thanks for the great help
I disagree, I don't beileve their should be a retainer.
Hasn't needed to be in the last 70 years, and I don't think their needs to be now.
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Brigades weren't doing 300 calls a year for the past 70 years though. I don't think all volunteers should be paid, but the busy urban brigades should get compensation...
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It is a tough one but i can see reasons for really busy brigades to get compensation however i have no clue how to arrange this.
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No cause the government cant afford it and volunteers by definition do not get paid...
You may want to note that in many fire services, 'Volunteer' and Retained Staff are one and the same.
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No cause the government cant afford it and volunteers by definition do not get paid...
You may want to note that in many fire services, 'Volunteer' and Retained Staff are one and the same.
Not in Australia.
Vic-CFA volunteers and Permananent staff.
NSWFB-Retained Firefighters, Permanent staff
NSWRFS-Volunteers
Qld-Retained Firefighters, Permanent Staff and volunteers.
SAMFS-Retained Firefighters and Permanent staff.
SACFS-volunteer firefighters.
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New funding arrangements for Region 1, (and I think other regions), brought in a new way of handling the funding...and it included members being able to claim for their phone calls, travel etc..... so it aims to cover members costs, so they don't have to pay to do the work, as well as giving up their time...
Pip
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No cause the government cant afford it and volunteers by definition do not get paid...
You may want to note that in many fire services, 'Volunteer' and Retained Staff are one and the same.
Not in Australia.
Vic-CFA volunteers and Permananent staff.
NSWFB-Retained Firefighters, Permanent staff
NSWRFS-Volunteers
Qld-Retained Firefighters, Permanent Staff and volunteers.
SAMFS-Retained Firefighters and Permanent staff.
SACFS-volunteer firefighters.
We must be in a different 'Australia' to each other then...
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No cause the government cant afford it and volunteers by definition do not get paid...
You may want to note that in many fire services, 'Volunteer' and Retained Staff are one and the same.
Not in Australia.
Vic-CFA volunteers and Permananent staff.
NSWFB-Retained Firefighters, Permanent staff
NSWRFS-Volunteers
Qld-Retained Firefighters, Permanent Staff and volunteers.
SAMFS-Retained Firefighters and Permanent staff.
SACFS-volunteer firefighters.
We must be in a different 'Australia' to each other then...
This point isn't worth arguing - CFS fire fighters that get paid wouldn't be called volunteers in the first place...
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This topic has been done to death in previous posts. Probably better off to put it to bed.
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We must be in a different 'Australia' to each other then...
But maaatttte this is the lucky country :-D
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I did not join the fire service to get paid rather to help my local community and I am affraid to say this but some Volunteers have lost the value of community service and are now wanting to get paid for a service which is FREE. If anything I would like to see the goverment give tax breaks to companys that let members attend emergency call outs during working hours.. There has been a push in Victoria by the UFU for cfa to have retain fire stations but the VFBA in that state and its members have rejected it....If you want to get paid well go join the paid service,Being a Volunteer is just that you volunteer your time when you can and i think you will find that 95% of CFS volunteers are happy doing it that way.
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No cause the government cant afford it and volunteers by definition do not get paid...
You may want to note that in many fire services, 'Volunteer' and Retained Staff are one and the same.
Not in Australia.
Vic-CFA volunteers and Permananent staff.
NSWFB-Retained Firefighters, Permanent staff
NSWRFS-Volunteers
Qld-Retained Firefighters, Permanent Staff and volunteers.
SAMFS-Retained Firefighters and Permanent staff.
SACFS-volunteer firefighters.
We must be in a different 'Australia' to each other then...
you cannot be both 'vollunteer' and on a retainer.... by definition it is impossible.
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i think you will find that 95% of CFS volunteers are happy doing it that way.
Yet the other 5% of vols arew the ones doing 90% of the calls and work!
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i think you will find that 95% of CFS volunteers are happy doing it that way.
Yet the other 5% of vols arew the ones doing 90% of the calls and work!
Good call! :lol:
rescue5271: When firefighters get paid, they're not volunteers anymore, so the argument that they shouldn't get paid because they're volunteers is void. (As I said before).
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how about a 1% decrease in income tax :lol:
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It volunteers get paid then they are employed staff. now this brings in heaps of other issues like you have to publicly advertise the job, cant discriminate etc etc. So you cant just pay those members of the brigade you have to employ them.
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i think you will find that 95% of CFS volunteers are happy doing it that way.
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I was just suggesting that historically, many paid services are made up of both 'volunteers' and permanent staff.
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May be its time that CFS was allowed to have paid staff aswell as volunteers in the one station both doing the same job in some of the city urban area's. I as a Volunteer would not want to be paid and I am sure you will find that alot of brigade's outside of region one would not want to be paid but would rather have better equipment(appliances/pagers/radios)...... Can this be done yes it can....
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No cause the government cant afford it and volunteers by definition do not get paid...
What makes you think the government cant afford it?
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May be its time that CFS was allowed to have paid staff aswell as volunteers in the one station both doing the same job in some of the city urban area's. I as a Volunteer would not want to be paid and I am sure you will find that alot of brigade's outside of region one would not want to be paid but would rather have better equipment(appliances/pagers/radios)...... Can this be done yes it can....
Not when the Emergency Services minister stated that there would be no paid CFS volunteers. If paid firefighters are required then they would be MFS.
No cause the government cant afford it and volunteers by definition do not get paid...
What makes you think the government cant afford it?
Wel didnt the CFS budget get cutback this year??
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Not when the Emergency Services minister stated that there would be no paid CFS volunteers. If paid firefighters are required then they would be MFS.
The minister who might not be the minister for much longer?
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Wel didnt the CFS budget get cutback this year??
Just because the CFS budget got cut this year doesnt mean the government hasnt got any money.
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May be its time that CFS was allowed to have paid staff aswell as volunteers in the one station both doing the same job in some of the city urban area's.
Thats a good idea Blinkey, How would it work? Would it work out to be more effective and efficient that having an MFS station there or cost more?
24P
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With the ammount of "Country" MFS stations up in the mid north that dont recieve as many calls as some of the most busy CFS stations...have to wonder if CFS would be able to run those stations as Retained/Volunteer*. Instead of having a MFS and a CFS station in the same town.
(*small team of retained FF's, supported by a volunteer's)
Retained members would apply in the way that SA government employees would, while Volunteers would be able to join in the current voluntary manner as today.
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I did not join the fire service to get paid rather to help my local community and I am affraid to say this but some Volunteers have lost the value of community service and are now wanting to get paid for a service which is FREE.
G'day Blinky.
I categorically & absolutely dispute that the service we provide is "free".
Someone, somewhere, somehow, pays to deliver it. Maybe not the recipient,
not the full amount anyway. But someone pays.
At the moment, the cost of emergency response is primarily bourne by
individual volunteers and their employers. Lost pay, lost productivity,
lost goodwill, lost contracts. It is absolutely NOT "free".
Cost of preparedness if bourne by goverment & volunteers. That includes
hardware, running & admin expenses, travel costs & time. These are also
not "free".
Once upon a time, we did this as cash-strapped local communities & had
to chip in or it couldn't happen. We also only were expected to chip in
when it was beyond the ability of individuals or groups to manage the
situation.
The CFS has changed. Training & administrative requirements have multiplied.
Community expectations have changed. We are now regarded as a convenient
source of free labour for a whole range of things that people used to be
expected to do for themselves.
Like the frog in a heating saucepan thing, all this has happened slowly so
that we who are in it have mostly adjusted rather than hopped out. I dare
say a lot of our predecessors who are held as examples, would have told the
Service in no uncertain terms where to shove it had they been dumped ito
what is required of us now.
Might I also point out that in this debate the term "volunteer" is being
used and possibly ab-used - in a particularly narrow sub-definition of its
full meaning - merely to do something without recompense.
The full meaning is one who chooses to do something, as distinct from being
coerced. By way of patriotic example, while all other countries used onscription, our WW1 armed forces were an entirely volunteer force, even
though paid. Since "Volunteer" in this context is not disputed, why should
it be disputed in the case of financial compensation to CFS volunteers or
their employers?
It is my opinion that the term "retained" as applied to MFS & other urban
services relates more to the contract of availability they sign, rather than
their willingness to respond. Very much a contract of casual employment
rather than "will turn up if reasonably able".
The international convention on voluteering says that no volunteer should
be out-of-pocket for doing so.
I willing do this without pay. However, if the community through its
representative government (two jokes there for the price of one) chooses
to offer me a sweetener eg: rebates to ESL and/or car rego, I shan't knock
it back. It is still my FREE choice (I volunteer) to do this. And I won't
be any the less a "volunteer" for that.
That's my three bobs worth anyway.
cheers
AJ
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Amen
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Training & administrative requirements have multiplied
agreed.
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The minister who might not be the minister for much longer?
Yeah great, then we go back to Patty Conlon, the ex UFU legal counsel and good mate of the MFS.
Not sure what's worse, a minister that has no idea about us and doesn't give a toss or a minister that panders to every request of the MFS and still doesn't give a toss about us :|
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Not sure what's worse, a minister that has no idea about us and doesn't give a toss or a minister that panders to every request of the MFS and still doesn't give a toss about us :|
or there's the minister that interferes in CFS decision making (as distinct from setting broader policy) and bypasses the relevent authority (eg. SAFECOM) to try to look good in the media.
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well start lobbying Hon Stephen Wade MLC to stir up something
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after all of that discussion all i was saying is that it would be a good idea for cfs members to get some sort of support money wise for the wear and tear on there cars and fuel costs more so in the rural areas even if it was $20 a month it is better than a kick in the butt
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But under the new funding arrangements, they can claim things like travel, phone calls etc for their day to day CFS acivities..... :-)
Pip
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But under the new funding arrangements, they can clam things like travel, phone calls etc for their day to day CFS acivities..... :-)
Pip
i am unaware of the new funding arrangements as my name suggests i am a full time firefighter with samfs :-)
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basically a lot of the expenses a CFS member does can be "claimable"....
for example doing a Training course at the STC: Travel (excluding command cars) and Medical.
Its not an income, just a means to break even.
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Thats right Rann has got plenty money....
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But under the new funding arrangements, they can clam things like travel, phone calls etc for their day to day CFS acivities..... :-)
Pip
i am unaware of the new funding arrangements as my name suggests i am a full time firefighter with samfs :-)
I posted it in previous topics, and in this one earlier :-D
Pip
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or there's the minister that interferes in CFS decision making (as distinct from setting broader policy) and bypasses the relevent authority (eg. SAFECOM) to try to look good in the media.
Sorry Darius - that's all of them.
Could you try to be more specific ? :-D
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basically a lot of the expenses a CFS member does can be "claimable"....
for example doing a Training course at the STC: Travel (excluding command cars) and Medical.
Its not an income, just a means to break even.
but are cfs able to claim travel to and from the station :?
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a quick answer is no
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I think under the new funding arrangements, the answer is Yes...
Pip
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Well in the folder that was handed out at our last Group meeting from Region the answer is no if you are attending a callout to your normal Brigade, and that is what the BSO and Richard Wald also said at the meeting. So have a look in the Finance Manual that should be at your station
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Interesting...that is quite different to what we were told at a presentation on the funding arrangements... :|
Pip
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I think under the new funding arrangements, the answer is Yes...
Pip
If they were paying the usual 50c per KM, they'd need to reimburse me around $500 for last year - the CFS couldn't afford to do that for everyone...
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You can get some Travel or Motor Vehicle Allowance for some activity's best way is to look in the Volunteer Finance Manual Version 6 June 2007 section 2.2, 2.3 it may be what you are after. But as they say its being reviewed again as always.
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well start lobbying Hon Stephen Wade MLC to stir up something
Examples please? what are these decisions that are interfered with?
I have no problems with people having a go at the CFS management or the government but I think you have an obligation to provide the facts when you make the criticisms. I think thats only fair.
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oh i just said him as he is shadow emergency service minister and was mentioning him as a person to bring these issues to.
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Interesting article about the VFBA pushing for paid CFS members. Particularly that Mt Barker was mentioned even though they have so many members that they can have shifts for available members. Why on earth would they need paid firies then? If there are other stations in built up areas that do not have enough membership to get appliances on the road they will probably end up going the way of Seaford...
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Interesting article about the VFBA pushing for paid CFS members. Particularly that Mt Barker was mentioned even though they have so many members that they can have shifts for available members. Why on earth would they need paid firies then? If there are other stations in built up areas that do not have enough membership to get appliances on the road they will probably end up going the way of Seaford...
You need paid firies to guarantee a response 100% of the time.
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Not when the Emergency Services minister stated that there would be no paid CFS volunteers. If paid firefighters are required then they would be MFS.
Yeah she "promised" the UFU the only paid service would be MFS. Do you really beleive everything that comes out of pollies mouths do you? They only say what suits them at the time. If it were found to be cost effective to have CFS as paid fire fighters (talking 8-5, mon-fri, like down your way as opposed to 24/7) and it made her look good, watch the backflip then! :wink:
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From Wendy Shirley
Subject: Today's Advertiser
Hi Everyone
In todays advertiser there is a story on Page 9 quoting me asking for the debate regarding the employment of CFS paid firefighters to work in some brigades to be opened up.
This is in response to a Mt barker Courier article last week which quoted Vince Monterola saying that it was time to look at the issue.
That Courier article was responded to by David Place, CEO of SAFECOM saying some very nice things about volunteers and Stirling and Mt barker brigades in particular, but knocking on the head any thought of us being canvassed on this issue.
This is because the Minister has made a guarantee to the united Firefighters Union that CFS will not have the option of paid firefighters.
Unfortunately not all that i said was printed. I did say that not all volunteers were in favour of such a proposition, preferring to keep the pure volunteer ethos of the organisation. I also said that we should be allowed to have the debate, however, as firefighters employed by CFS could give extra flexibilty to some brigades in terms of day time crewing. This could be just two firefighters forming the nucleus of a crew, up to a full Monday to Friday day time crew.
This flexibilty would give the community a much more cost effective solution than putting in MFS firies, as there would most likely be a duplication in terms of stations etc in those communities. It would certainly be cheaper than a full 24/7 station such as we have seen in seaford, costing $5million to build and $2million a year to maintain.
The Association has not come to any determination on this matter. We simply want to have the debate amongst volunteers, to ascertain the best way forward for the service and the communities we serve. Unfortunately the article reads as if Stirling and mt barker are jumping up and down for paid firefighters right now. That has come from the Courier story, and is not the case
We would appreciate your views on this issue. Keep in mind that the CFA in Victoria has retained its status as a service separate to the Victorian Metro Fire Brigades, and is really the only service apart from us that has;
a.. got that separate identity and status
b.. and that provides the full range of emergency response that we do. CFA has some 40,000 volunteers and about 400 paid firefighters. It still retains its identity as a volunteer service. It is very strong and is under no threat of becoming a one service as we see in WA, Qld and Tassie.
Nothing more will be said by us in the media until after the Association AGM on Sunday October 28 (all invited RSVP Monday 22). This will be an agenda item.
Please email me or ring me at any time on 0427 823 656 to discuss
Cheers, Wendy
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Maybe the VFBA should change their name to the country VFBA? The heirachy are obviously out of touch with the demands of people in urban areas. They are saying that Seaford doesnt need a fully manned fire station. Maybe then they will say that neither does Salisbury, Christies, Golden Grove etc?? Time saved can mean lives saved.
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Well they did change their name, and it now includes the word country... CFSVA. :)
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Maybe the VFBA should change their name to the country VFBA? The heirachy are obviously out of touch with the demands of people in urban areas. They are saying that Seaford doesnt need a fully manned fire station. Maybe then they will say that neither does Salisbury, Christies, Golden Grove etc?? Time saved can mean lives saved.
you did read the bit where it says they are inviting people to put forward their views on this?
so why don't you then? (and I don't mean moaning on the internet)
99% of the CFS is country.
(ok the 99% is a guess but 96.5% of all statistics are made up)
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lol..
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99% of the CFS is country.
(ok the 99% is a guess but 96.5% of all statistics are made up)
Yeah, and 90% of the calls are done by urban brigades.
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and 80% of the stop calls are done by urban brigades. :P lol sorry just had to throw that egg in :wink:
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Crankster, what brigades do you include in the in your comment re urban brigades...?
Pip
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id say he's talking about Seaford, Morphett Vale, Happy Valley, Stirling, Mt Barker, Dalkeith and Salisbury...
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Crankster, what brigades do you include in the in your comment re urban brigades...?
Pip
Probably those that make up 90% of the calls.. As they highest call attendee's are classified Urban / Urban Fringe..
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99% of the CFS is country.
(ok the 99% is a guess but 96.5% of all statistics are made up)
Yeah, and 90% of the calls are done by urban brigades.
yep I'm not arguing with that (whatever the percentage is) but don't forget the VFBA (which is what I was responding to) represents the volunteers not the incidents. How someone from Oodnawoopwoop brigade that does 2 calls a year feels about the direction of the CFS is just as valid for consideration as from someone from one of the busy urban brigades.
what I think you're alluding to is that the busy urban brigades have different needs and pressures etc, which again I agree with. Hence my point that if 'uniden' (presumably as someone from one of those busy urban brigades) feels he/she is not being represented by the VFBA then he/she should put forward their views or even attend the VFBA meetings, and have that influence into the VFBA.
it's like people in a club (or union or brigade) who don't like the decisions the club's president (or management) are making. What you do is put forward your views at a club meeting and get support for them. Maybe you even get yourself (or a like minded person) elected to the management committee so people who share your views have a channel to get them heard. The alternative is just whinge around the bar about the w*nkers running the club and do nothing about it.
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The CFSVA will never properly represent the volunteers as it is funded by the government.
That and it is unwilling to take a strong stand and take strong action in order to rectify issues.
Its a shame, but if the CFSVA was willing to stand up to CFS corporate rather than let individual brigades and groups fight for themselves, we may well see some changes for the better.
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what I think you're alluding to is that the busy urban brigades have different needs and pressures etc, which again I agree with. Hence my point that if 'uniden' (presumably as someone from one of those busy urban brigades)
darius, uniden is retained MFS, not CFS
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on that point should the CFSVA become more of a Union or should CFS start a union or just hope for a liberal government.
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on that point should the CFSVA become more of a Union or should CFS start a union or just hope for a liberal government.
The CFSVA just needs to be independent from the government body with which it is dealing. Hard to achieve without individual volunteers paying for it, but at the same time, if I knew that the CFSVA was going to stick up for me as a volunteer with the same gusto as the UFUA stands up for our paid counterparts, I'd happily pay up.
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I fail to see how the CFSVA or VBFA are standing up for volunteers when they are arguing that volunteers can't do the job and should be paid!
Doesn't say much for our volunteer ethos if the organisation set up to support and advocate for us is saying that we should have paid fire fighters.
Seems to be a complete paradox an organisation whose sole purpose is to stand up for volunteers saying that they should be paid and not volunteers!!
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AJ: are you sure its the VFBA that are saying volunteers cant do the job??? and why is it all of sudden beocome a issue that we VOLUNTEERS should be paid?? sounds like the FRAC team is stiring the pot.....As a volunteer are you forced to attend call outs or training??? as a volunteer you have the right to select just how much you wish to volunteer to the service...Something that alot of people have over looked if we where to be paid do you think that a brigade would still have say 25 members in it for one appliance?? No they would reduce the number of members at each station if we where being paid...... I did not join for the money i joint to provide a service to the community...
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Its not just your association that has an identity crisis sometimes & for the same reasons payed for by the government, represents a large group of people with different needs, join the service & you are a member of the association (compulsory unionism?) and dare I say it - staffed by vollies. Look at any union including the UFU payed for by members, payed staff and definite agendas. When as a group (some time ago)several units decided that state HQ & the association didn't know what it was doing, several options were discussed to make people sit up & take notice, after discussing several options & keeping in mind what happened in the Adelaide Hills (not wanting to drag that one up again but it serves as a warning to all)only one option we thought would work - withdraw our labour (which is what the unions use as its prime weapon afterall). And after careful consideration of the consequences & the impact on our communities, the idea was dropped (very quickly like a poisoned challis)- after all our complaints were serious but not enough to risk our families, friends and neighbours. And the government knows this, thats why they cut budgets, do backflips and will never pay vollies because they know that every time the pager goes off, someone will turn up - might take several pages & many brigades/units but crews will turn up. So I guess unless you want to do what your counterparts in the ACT did, you guys will be having this argument for some time to come. cheers
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id say he's talking about Seaford, Morphett Vale, Happy Valley, Stirling, Mt Barker, Dalkeith and Salisbury...
I'm not sure that Mt Barker is an "urban fringe" brigade, and somewhere like Burnside & Athelstone not....but, if we take the responses for the brigades listed above, for 2005 -06 (as the 06-07 stats haven't been released yet) then these brigades do a around 15 % of the state's responses.
If we remove Mt Barker & Stirling from the figures, and put in Burnside & Athelstone ( which are more "urban fringe) then the brigades respond to 12.8 % of the state's responses.
I wouldn't expect the figures to change dramatically for the 2006-07 year (and certainly not 90% of the State's responses!) :-)
Pip
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How many incidents were attended last year pip? ..
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So I guess unless you want to do what your counterparts in the ACT did, you guys will be having this argument for some time to come. cheers
lol, if what happened in ACT would ever happen here in SA....we might possibly see Mike Rann being the "minister in PPE" lol...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2ohYTYJN8Rw (http://youtube.com/watch?v=2ohYTYJN8Rw)
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Love to see that holding a charged line in one hand and a set of lukus spreaders in the other - super vollie lol
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Well would it work?? would volunteers be willing to do this?? and with SA about to get into what looks like a very dry and busy summer who is willing to do this??? the media would have a field day the coverage would be great but is this the way we should go....May be its time some of these pen pushers came and spent time on the front line and just see what volunteers do and see just how much we do train and all the other community work we do....
As for Rann in his PPE,when was he last at training?? has he done the burn over drill?? and does he not live in MFS area now???
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Your right rescue5271 about the point of the summer issues that we could be facing and the need to be prepared. Didn't Euen have an idea and called it Sherpa. How much do we know about Sherpa besides the dot points that are available from VFBA website. Maybe we need to look at the flexibility of service and the types of service that are delivered from brigades and seas units.
Maybe the idea of the Salisbury reserve unit needs to be expanded upon. I think some brigade maybe more useful as brigades that gets deployed elsewhere. Where the dollar matter we need to look at the standards of fire cover and brigade classification along with membership types as some brigade might have members that can more dedicated than others. i.e. those that want to attend everything and those that want to be a part of the brigade look after the local properties.
I personally believe that it the type of service we wants needs to be debated here before we go down the paid or not paid line or is the VFBA a clawless tiger or not.
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well first we need to come up with "EXACTLY" what we want.
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How many incidents were attended last year pip? ..
I only have the figures for the 2005-06 year, and there were 13597 responses (which is different to the number of incidents) Currently, I don't have the figures for the number of actual incidents attended.
Pip
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What is classified under a "response" ?
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It is great tahe Euan has come up with these ideas I along with 89 other members from teh southeast did a meeting here and he gave the talk the media took hold of it and that was that..We need to push for this to happen if the public in the big smike want to help then how much longer do we have to wait to see it up and running??? If we are going to publicly say that we are looking at a CFS resverve force then we better start getting it up and running or else it will only be a band aid on a ship that has a few holes... I know Euan is busy but time to get the ball rolling before we loose those ex members who are in the city and want to help...
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I have a feeling things are moving in a whole lot of areas. Have you guys seen the letter from the minister yet? If you haven't you will it was addressed directly to all unit managers/Deputy UM's & brigade captains (or maybe Group Officers)but was to be circulated to everyone. Basically it thanks all vollies for there efforts, mentions David Place's new position(nice to find that out in the media first),mentions the two year review, touchs on the up comming fire season, hints at some changes that will improve things for vollies & their employers which we will know about before the end of the year & finally (which I found a bit strange & when I told my guys they laughed) that even though there is a chain of command - you can always talk to her or her assistant directly. So taking all of that into account & the fact that this years SES UM's conference is a two day open forum (with trade show), instead of the usual stage managed affair (which we are being very strongly encouraged to attend). Plus some other meetings I've been to recently, hints at a major change coming. I'm not sure what that change/ changes will be but I reckon you will see your Adelaide based strike teams, but as you said they need to be happening soon. And this year for the first time the local CFS guys & us are already having discussions around what type of support we can provide (& no not catering :wink:), which in the past didn't happen until we were needed (we provide boats, flotation pumps etc). So I guess its watch this space and hope that the wheels of bureaucracy don't turn too slow. Cheers
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Why are we getting all this in a letter from the Minister? Surely, much of the info you allude to is Operational stuff, which the Minister should not be fiddling in on a daily basis...... :|
Pip
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What is classified under a "response" ?
A response is counted when a brigade is called to an incident, and responds... it may include a stop call.
So for one incident there can be two or more responses (eg two or more brigades responded)
Pip
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Roger, ta.
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Not sure, and you are right surely info should come down through the chain. Three points that concerned me was first that we find out about the the changes to the head of SAFECOM (who after all is/was our CEO)thru the media & then get told that the position is infact two positions - Why the change? & why was there two positions before? Second there is of course no details, just hints of change, Surely the head of SAFECOM & the CEO's should be talking about this stuff? Or is this because the review will highlight changes are needed & she is just for shadowing this? And third what was you can always talk to me stuff? Does she think shes not getting the full picture? Doesn't she think that the Associations represent the true feelings of the grass root vollies? Or is she just trying to be caring & sharing? When I got to that part of the letter with my guys, I told them it was their democratic right to talk to any elected official, however be very careful what you say as pollies have a horrible habit of turning stuff to suit their own agenda & you might not get the result you are looking forward (before I took over the unit we had a guy who wrote to the minister about his concerns & her reply was terse basically it was being dealt with by the service and she could not interfere - he didn't get what he wanted and is no longer in the unit) so writing to the minister may not be a good idea. So I don't know Pipster, it just weird that it came direct from her office to the unit mail box and not through State HQ & the regional office (Attorneys Generals envelope & all) & both my deputy & I got one so as I said its strange. Hopefully you guys will get to see it soon and I will look forward to your thoughts & comments cheers
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first that we find out about the the changes to the head of SAFECOM (who after all is/was our CEO)thru the media & then get told that the position is infact two positions - Why the change?
which two positions are we talking about?
commisioner... and?
or are we mainly talking SES stuff here...
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(stupid question i know)
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you're quite right chook about being careful what you ask for (by the way, can you write in paragraphs? your contributions are very hard to read). It can pay off and has done in some cases I can think of but well frankly I wouldn't trust any pollie further than I can throw them.
I was having a chat to someone recently in a position to know such things and he said to me the minister is not necessarily getting involved in these lower level details that you wouldn't normally expect them to (I would expect the minister to set top level policy and funding etc decisions and leave the operational stuff to the CO and underlings) because she particularly wants to, but rather is covering her own arse against the opposition and media who try to catch her out.
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Sorry Darius,(wasn't meant to be that long :wink:). And I think you have hit the nail on the Head.
The two positions were the Commisioner of Safecom & Chair of the board, not a major thing but when the act was written someone saw the need for two & now there isn't?
And I think you are right there has been a lot of bad publicity recently (Wangarry, Adelaide Hills SES, Seaford & CAD to name a few). As far as SESSA stuff goes we hadn't noticed David had gone :wink:.
Just when a pollie becomes all caring and sharing, her staff (our bosses) will try to please - which may be a good thing or maybe not. Just there feels like change is coming and quicker than some might think. cheers
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also something of real concern has been highlighted in the latest Hills Courier paper, regarding slow communications between the 3 comcens, particularing SAAS talking to MFS. Eg. SAAS get called at most 20mins before any fire or rescue is called.
Also highlighting the *golden hour* with trauma patients in Road Crashes.
Ill post the articles soon when i have time to.
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The letter talked about the appointment of David Place, Volunteer recognition, the coronial inquest and the review of the Act - Please Pip can you Explain how this is operational??? You really are very petty. When you dont get toild things you whinge and when you do you whinge. Why cant you just be happy that for once someone is listening to us and communicating with us. There was NOTING operational in the letter. You might want to read a copy before you launch into your usual negative rubbish.
Why are we getting all this in a letter from the Minister? Surely, much of the info you allude to is Operational stuff, which the Minister should not be fiddling in on a daily basis...... :|
Pip
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Ill post the articles soon when i have time to.
yes was a good article. This is something that has been raised at regional level for yonks (in R1 at least) and is obviously being stalled somewhere higher than regional level. Hopefully articles like this can cause the relevant public servants to extract their digits.
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before you launch into your usual negative rubbish.
ah you again, so you're not just anti-VFBA but anti anything negative about the govt / minister. I was in two minds whether you were a UFU-stooge or a ministers staff stooge, I think perhaps the latter (or maybe they are related).
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So much UFU hate...
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I dont think it unreasonable for Pip to have read the letter before slagging it off. But then again, some people are so blinded by their bias that they would do so anyway. And I think its pathetic when CFS volunteers like myself get accused of being UFU hacks or government stooges every time we disagree with the tactics of people who just want to bag. Its pathetic.
before you launch into your usual negative rubbish.
ah you again, so you're not just anti-VFBA but anti anything negative about the govt / minister. I was in two minds whether you were a UFU-stooge or a ministers staff stooge, I think perhaps the latter (or maybe they are related).
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not cos of disagreeing but cos your only posts are like your one above in reply to Pip and cos of your VFBA antics on the sacfs yahoo group.
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So much UFU hate...
not from me (I would like to see the VFBA get more like them in some ways).
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So much UFU hate...
not from me (I would like to see the VFBA get more like them in some ways).
Especially in the 'Actually doing something' department.
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The letter talked about the appointment of David Place, Volunteer recognition, the coronial inquest and the review of the Act - Please Pip can you Explain how this is operational??? You really are very petty. When you dont get toild things you whinge and when you do you whinge. Why cant you just be happy that for once someone is listening to us and communicating with us. There was NOTING operational in the letter. You might want to read a copy before you launch into your usual negative rubbish.
Why are we getting all this in a letter from the Minister? Surely, much of the info you allude to is Operational stuff, which the Minister should not be fiddling in on a daily basis...... :|
Pip
I was going on the information posted by someone else...which alluded to things that I would see as Operational.
As yet, I have not received a copy of the letter - even though I am in a position, that according to others, was meant to receive this letter.
As far as I can see, info about the "Black Tuesday" Coronial will impact on the Operational side of things....and shouldn't be in the direct realm of a Minister (ever heard of separation of powers?)
A review of the Act can also impact greatly on Operational areas, depending upon what direction the review heads. However, this may actually be something the Minister should actually be involved with....but I suspect there are other issues that are better dealt with through an Operational chain of command.
I am sorry that you feel it necessary to bag others on this forum for their views, if they differ from your own - rather than being able to discuss the differences in a sensible grown up way.
Pip
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Sorry Pip if I confused you (as someone pointed out I should use paragraphs).
The letter as is as described, at around the same time our service is (for the first time in years) having an open forum for unit managers. (change?)
To explain our service structure is very different to CFS, Unit Managers (controllers)are the senior vollies in the service. They have full control of their budgets, equipment & people.
Over the past few years payed staff have tried to bring some of this power back to them (regional commanders), currently though it hasn't worked. This change has caused a lot of pain in our service, especially among the old controllers who basically constructed the service in the first place. (change?)
At the same time training has changed, this has also caused pain. We (the vollies) would like to modify the training so we can get people on to trucks quicker, however when I have spoken to state trainers about this they say wait until the Wangarry fire inquiry is finished. (change?)
I think anyone who is in CFS/SES can see that the services are changing, new equipment, new ideas, more tasks, a less self reliant community & less people volunteering.
The challenges for us all are how are How are we going to provide a service that the community demands? After all they have paid for it. I think that this is where the minister is coming from (and as was said previously political). So I believe there is change coming & it may involve what this post was talking about (renumeration for service), but the danger is once you accept money for services rendered (in what ever form it is) then there are certain expectations (ask the retained guys).
And any change will be a bit of carrot and a bit of stick, if either of the associations try to take the carrot without the stick-lookout you will get hammered. So again Pip sorry for the confusion I was just trying to point out change is coming, so get ready! (I'm not a member of any union or political party :-D just care for my community-cheers)
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As I said read the letter then criticise it. Doing so in the reverse doesnt render you with much credibility.
1) From my photo copy of the letter I was given by our DGO the information about black tuesday just says that it has been a long and hard process and that we should thank everyone for their efforts. - Hardly operational and something that I would expect the govt or the cfs hierachy to be doing... so not inappropriate at all.
2) The review of the legislation i would think is a matter for the Minister, given that the legislation itself says that the minister has to do it.
3)I agree with you that lots of things should be dealt with through the chain of command - but what do you do when you do that and nothing happens? Isnt it a good thing that the person ultimately responsible - eg the Minister has said that you can also contact them? As CFS Members we dont just have a responsibility to our organisation we have a responsibility to the community!!
I think too many times people get caught up in the 'save the cfs' mentality. Rather than do what is best for the community.
Pip i think that perhaps you are the one who prone to the personal attacks and prone to not listening. You accuse me of not being grown up, and yet at least i inform myself before i make comment on things. You made comment on something you didnt read. You misread what someone posted (a good post by them) and you launched into an attack on the Minister based on your misinterpreted view. I think for whatever reasons (political/personal) you dont like the Minister and you tried to find a reason to launch an attack.
I'll bag the Minister, the CFS or the VFBA if I think they are not doing the right thing. But I also think its a good idea to give credit where it is due. I am not blinded by an agenda like some people. That agenda is what is going to kill the CFS, not the Govt or the MFS or the CFS Management.
I for one am happy whenever those at the top take the time to contact those of us on the ground. And if they give us a mechanism to communicate back I think it is even better.
The letter talked about the appointment of David Place, Volunteer recognition, the coronial inquest and the review of the Act - Please Pip can you Explain how this is operational??? You really are very petty. When you dont get toild things you whinge and when you do you whinge. Why cant you just be happy that for once someone is listening to us and communicating with us. There was NOTING operational in the letter. You might want to read a copy before you launch into your usual negative rubbish.
Why are we getting all this in a letter from the Minister? Surely, much of the info you allude to is Operational stuff, which the Minister should not be fiddling in on a daily basis...... :|
Pip
I was going on the information posted by someone else...which alluded to things that I would see as Operational.
As yet, I have not received a copy of the letter - even though I am in a position, that according to others, was meant to receive this letter.
As far as I can see, info about the "Black Tuesday" Coronial will impact on the Operational side of things....and shouldn't be in the direct realm of a Minister (ever heard of separation of powers?)
A review of the Act can also impact greatly on Operational areas, depending upon what direction the review heads. However, this may actually be something the Minister should actually be involved with....but I suspect there are other issues that are better dealt with through an Operational chain of command.
I am sorry that you feel it necessary to bag others on this forum for their views, if they differ from your own - rather than being able to discuss the differences in a sensible grown up way.
Pip
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could we possibly be talking about 2 diffrent letters?
Pip is referring to an earlier comment about the minister doing something that relates to operational reasons which she shouldn't do as she has employed people like CFS CO etc to do that.
How about you PM or post this letter to some of us?
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As I said - I have not yet received a copy of the letter (which, according to others, the position I am in, should be receiving the letter).
I have not criticised the contents of the letter - only that letters are being sent out by people who perhaps are not really the people who should be sending out the letters!
There are also many things going on behind the scenes that perhaps you are unaware of.
Some of the issues alluded to here by others appear from their post as as Operational Issues - something I believe Governments should not be fiddling in. If they are not Operational, then it might be appropriate for the Minister to send out a letter.
My posts on this issue relate to the appropriateness of the sending of the letter, not the contents of it.
Pip
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Sorry Pip, but the minister is ultimately responsible for us - not as individuals but as members of the emergency services.
Like it or not when we put the uniform on we are "employed" by the emergency services under the Fire & Emergency Services Act. It doesn't matter whether you are a full time in the service, Part time,Retained MFS or a vollie in CFS/SES. The minister is answerable to the Parliament, which in turn is answerable to the people. It is entirely appropriate for her to communicate with whoever she chooses and to make comments on whatever she feels like - thats democracy. I'm curious about one of your comments though,"There are also many things going on behind the scenes that perhaps you are unaware of.". Our Association makes similar comments - What does that mean exactly?
As I have said previously I'm sorry if you read "operational issues" in any of my posts. I have reread my previous posts and can't see any reference to how you guys go about fighting fires, doing rescues, fire management or any of the other operational things you do.
What I have read (repeatedly)though is times are a changin, there is a fantastic opportunity to help with the change and make the services fit the 21 century and continue being in a service to be proud of. But as was said by someone in a previous post - you must know exactly what you want!
What is good for urban/ semi rural brigades(units) may not be suitable for rural/outback brigades/ units. We have this conversation with our urban cousins on a regular basis. Anyway I think I've said enough on this subject, because at the end of the day we will end up doing what the other two services want us to do (it doesn't help being the runt of the litter :-D. cheers chook
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I totally agree re the comment about 'things that go on behind the scenes that you might not be aware of'
what are these things???? please tell us? or is this info only for the in crowd? would you rather just allude to them because you dont have to back up your claims with FACTS.
What are these things. Have the courage to make them known and back them up with facts. and be prepared to PROVE THEM.
All this 'he said, she said' rubbish really hurts us. It causes mistrust and a lack of confidence in the service from memebrs and causes the community to think that volunteers cant do the job.
I think it is entirely proper for the Minister to write to volunteers and to tell them what the Government is doing.
I think Pip has a much broader definition of operational than is actually contained in the legislation. Pip I suggest you read it. Then you will realise that anyting outside of of how the water is put on the fire is the business of SAFECOM/Minister and they do have a right to comment on it.
As for your claims of 'fiddling' in things. what are they? or are you just angry that its other people who are making the decisions and not YOU. There again proof that you are more concerned with your own empire of power, protecting and building an organisation rather than protecting the community. Pip your priorities are all backwards. Your so transperent.
There will always be an element in our organisations who are more concerned with their own empire, their own power and the organisational protection of their turf rather than the protection of the community.
Chook, there are some of us that think of SES as equals and just as important as everyone else.
Sorry Pip, but the minister is ultimately responsible for us - not as individuals but as members of the emergency services.
Like it or not when we put the uniform on we are "employed" by the emergency services under the Fire & Emergency Services Act. It doesn't matter whether you are a full time in the service, Part time,Retained MFS or a vollie in CFS/SES. The minister is answerable to the Parliament, which in turn is answerable to the people. It is entirely appropriate for her to communicate with whoever she chooses and to make comments on whatever she feels like - thats democracy. I'm curious about one of your comments though,"There are also many things going on behind the scenes that perhaps you are unaware of.". Our Association makes similar comments - What does that mean exactly?
As I have said previously I'm sorry if you read "operational issues" in any of my posts. I have reread my previous posts and can't see any reference to how you guys go about fighting fires, doing rescues, fire management or any of the other operational things you do.
What I have read (repeatedly)though is times are a changin, there is a fantastic opportunity to help with the change and make the services fit the 21 century and continue being in a service to be proud of. But as was said by someone in a previous post - you must know exactly what you want!
What is good for urban/ semi rural brigades(units) may not be suitable for rural/outback brigades/ units. We have this conversation with our urban cousins on a regular basis. Anyway I think I've said enough on this subject, because at the end of the day we will end up doing what the other two services want us to do (it doesn't help being the runt of the litter :-D. cheers chook
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AJ
you sound like a very intraspective person,but i guess that is no suprise because your head is surely stuck somewhere.
as for your comments to pip about not having all the facts before stating anything ie"fiddling" in your diatribe you ask two questions which clearly infers YOU dont have all the answers and then state its proof that shes empire building,not concerned with protecting the community,her priorities are backwards and shes transparent.
you obviously dont know her or you would be using CARMELS private line to call her and apologise.
sounds like darius has you nailed!
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Its very sad that people in this forum attack others with out knowing that person,Pip would have to be one of those members and a brigade captain who does know what she is talking about..She cares for brigade memebers and the local community that she has under her care as a brigade captain....I have knowen pip for a number of years and it is great to see that she does CARE........
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This forum is for friendly discussion. Make it friendly or you risk being banned or at very least your posts edited or deleted.
This is a reminder to all......
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Maybe the question should be "should the CFS look at putting on Paid staff to help or suppliment the vollies" (This will not take away from our Volunteer ethos)
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Nice idea but no chance, in case you haven't heard there isn't any extra money for any of the emergency services. We (SES) are in our third year of budget cuts, SAMFS & I guess you guys are too.
Thats why any talk of paying for what used to be volunteers is a hypothetical anyway. There will be exceptions of course (Seaton for example)but what did SAMFS give up for that - I think we all know (two rural stations maybe :wink:).
Yep we need extra payed staff to assist our units in the area of admin, training & planning. But it isn't going to happen & with vollie numbers dropping off in rural areas, nothing is going to change - this is the harsh reality.
Remember ESL only pays 50% of the costs of the emergency services, with the remainder coming out of treasury.
By the way AJ when I said runt of the litter I meant smallest & cheapest :-D, but thanks for your comments - cheers.
chook
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Nice idea but no chance, in case you haven't heard there isn't any extra money for any of the emergency services. We (SES) are in our third year of budget cuts, SAMFS & I guess you guys are too.
Thats why any talk of paying for what used to be volunteers is a hypothetical anyway. There will be exceptions of course (Seaton for example)but what did SAMFS give up for that - I think we all know (two rural stations maybe :wink:).
Yep we need extra payed staff to assist our units in the area of admin, training & planning. But it isn't going to happen & with vollie numbers dropping off in rural areas, nothing is going to change - this is the harsh reality.
Remember ESL only pays 50% of the costs of the emergency services, with the remainder coming out of treasury.
By the way AJ when I said runt of the litter I meant smallest & cheapest :-D, but thanks for your comments - cheers.
chook
I think you mean Seaford. Are you suggesting that some of the MFS regional stations may close??
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Oops, typed the wrong name thanks for the correction :oops:& yes thats what I heard from two different sources (different services- no known connection to each other). However it hasn't happened yet so can't name them.
Point is it doesn't matter how many great ideas people come up with, there is no money to pay for them unless sacrifices are made. I even wrote to the local member & the minister to make a case for extra staff & dollars to stop our service slipping backwards further. Other than a thanks for your concern reply - nothing!
The truth is the public don't care as long as there is someone to put out the fire, conduct a rescue or cut up that tree. And there isn't any point going to the media (big mistake) as the solutions would be to increase the levy (joe public would hate that), less brigades/units (vollies would go nuts), less new equipment (same) or reduce SAMFS numbers (UFU would go off & why shouldn't they!).
If you look interstate they have corporate sponsorship, and in the Eastern states they don't have the levy, so as I have said previously you can dream about paid CFS members, lots of new equipment etc but unless you can save dollars somewhere else it ain't gonna happen.
cheers
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I've had several unrelated members of the public (one was even from the city) tell me that they would be willing to pay more to give the CFS extra funding. I think with climate change being accepted as inevitable, Australia being in drought and the world in general seeing more frequent and more severe natural disasters, the public would be happy to pay more to support the CFS. (Can't speak for SES and MFS though).
Given correct public education, I believe the general public would be willing, (if not happy), to pay more to support the fire service.
I also believe that if the CFS isn't getting enough money, they should lobby for more, rather than making the volunteers suffer by cancelling training courses, taking the cheap option on appliances and equipment, and pretending nothing is wrong.
"There's no money" is a good excuse at first, but when there's always no money, year after year, shouldn't someone do something about it?
End rant...
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Totally true if it is sold right, same for us with all of the recent storm activity & other recent tasks. However the reasons for increased funds have to be sound. For example a new blue water boat for the West coast was sold on the basis of what was required to continue to provide the level of service safely.
And nobody has complained about your new appliances, PPE or sheds. But if the public see money being wasted or no bang for buck, the cause is lost!
I would think your service chiefs would be lobbying the government, I know ours are. I also think that when the public see volunteers arguing with the services in the media, then we will loose support unless its put in a way that the public can see a direct benefit to themselves.
I know locally when a small sub brigade was closed & the appliance moved to the parent brigade only the voices of the little hamlet were heard. As far as anyone else was concerned, who cares.
Same as the Adelaide Hills unit, at the end of the day what has really changed?
Lobby the pollies directly, if every member of the CFS/SES contacted their local member (especially if in the opposition) then the message will get through.
Your argument on training is excellent, we have the same problem. If that was put to a member of Parliament in a way that said we are happy to do the job but can't because training courses are cancelled all the time, what do you think their reaction would be? Sorry we can't fight that structural fire because we have no one BA qualified, Sorry we can't extract that road crash victim, not qualified. We want to do it but can't - do you think they would sit up and take notice? I do, but as I said the argument has to be sound.
And a lot of people in the community believe we get a renumeration of some sought, some even believe they have to pay for our services!
So as I have said previously you neeed need to work out what you want, then lobby. Sorry I'm not sure your 34p's are a cheap option though, I know that even though our rescue truck is not perfect - as a tax payer seeing $100,000 sitting their not being used everyday makes me wonder if its really cost effective. Again this is the thing we have to be careful of, complaining about everything does not help our case. Sorry for the long rant but having seen where the services have come from & where they maybe heading to, is a real concern of mine.
cheers
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The quickest and easiest way to save money that can then be put into where ever it is needed, it to remove the ridiculous amount of duplication of resources across the three services.
The sooner that there is a single body that covers all the Fire & Rescue needs of SA, the sooner that smart decisions will be made with regard to Fire & Rescue resource allocation.
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In theory yes in practice maybe - one service tends to be firecentric & who is going to do the flood storm stuff? (which causes more damage in dollar terms anyway).
Some of the techniques used in rescue assist with storm damage (vertical for example).
It certainly hasn't improve the situation in QLD or WA. I agree reduce duplication, also have a look at the location of SAMFS stations is there a need to have them in some localities just because there was a risk in the past?
Why do SAMFS facilities need to cost so much? e.g. Renmark joint SAMFS/SES Facility
416 BRIGADES! are all of them meeting the standard? Is there room for amalgamation or closure?
Why are there still separate SES,CFS & SAMFS facilities?
Is there a need to close some SES units & open new ones because of demographic changes?
And finally are all of the paid staff in the three services & SAFECOM earning their money? Remember the most populated states don't think one service is a great idea & in all honesty do you really think that a single service in a rural area would have the same level of equipment we have now? I don't the money would be spent on things like communication vans :wink: and flash new equipment to make the pollies look good in the city. Remember SAAS! cheers
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Haha, SAMFS *did* need a new comms bus though.
The problem is trying to get every one to work together. Easier said than done I know. All we need is:
"South Australian Fire & Resuce Service"
- The service has two branches, paid and volunteer.
- ALL CFS/MFS/SES appliances have new livery applied.
- Then the fun part. Each towns multiple services gets wrapped into the one building. Expensive, yes, but a great eventual outcome.
- Of course you only train in what you want to train in. Don't like fire? Only do rescue and so on.
This would allow standard equipment stowage, standard training, standard appliances (eventually), standard SOP's and standard PPE.
This dream hits me at 2am sometimes, then I wake up in cold sweat knowing I shouldn't ever hold such high hopes of something that will never happen.
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Like minds oh well dreams are what keeps you going :-) May be we might see it one day. Keep the dream alive cheers
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Never say never..... It may happen......one day :roll:
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Another note about funding the other night Euan Ferguson our CEO addressed the members present and nade a speech regarding the "Off Road Driver Training Program"
Safework SA issued a notice to CFS after the Mt Bryan 24 Rollover incident.This in turn led to the course for additional driver training.$260,000 has been spent on this program so far and Euan approcahed Treasury and made a request for additional funding for this program.The answer was "NO".
It is a shame when one govt organisation says "You will do this" and the other says "No we wont give you the money to do this" :?
CFS has an extension till 2009 to complete the training.
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CFS has an extension till 2009 to complete the training.
That's good (I think.)
Was sitting down the other night thinking about getting every driver from every brigade through the course before January. Even counting all my fingers & toes plus those of the wife & kids I kept coming up short.
So, as a local "CYA" activity, we've grabbed the course notes from the sole member who has been on it, picked the brains of our experienced drivers plus some 4WD clubbies who've done the full 3-day course, and got our resident Adult Educators onto it. Happily one is also a registered driving instructor.
We will be putting all our people through a "local familiarisation" (just as soon as the tracks dry out) and hopefully, they'll all be deemed fully competent when they get to do the "real" course sometime between now & Julember 2016...
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Now why not put people through the "Drive vehicles under response conditions" public safety package...
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Isn't that interesting - private industry would never get away with that! Maybe it wouldn't look good for an award winner to get prosecuted in the same year :evil:
By the way the private sector is waiting for the first prosecution of a government department - the good oil is it won't happen.
I've asked for our local inspector to give the guys a talk about OHS & he was very happy to until he found out it was a section of the state government. Backed away fast, wanted the request on official paper etc etc.
This scrimping for money for essential training is a disgrace!
Good on you for organising your own training, at least it will help.
cheers
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CFS have had to come up with the money that is why we are seeing things courses and other things canned at the moment,how hard is it for the government to open the cheque book and say here you go.....but that would be too easy...
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Now why not put people through the "Drive vehicles under response conditions" public safety package...
Easy....
Big Kev won't give Carmel the moolah to run it.
Always assuming Carmel asked in the first place.
Of course, David might not have passed on the message from
Euan to Carmel that he needs a bit extra pocket money this year.
But mostly, Kevin won't part with the cash, & has flagged a cut
in Euan's allowance next year.
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Isn't it interesting that in other states they value their emergency services and are increasing spending not cutting it. May be they are trying to catch up to us :wink: Here is an extract from the Victorian report on the Bushfires earlier this year :- "A Stronger Emergency Service
Valuing Volunteers Program $3,000,000
Grants for Emergency Services Volunteer Groups $11,000,000
New Equipment for Volunteers $3,131,000
New and Improved SES Units $8,016,000
Strengthening the SES $26,332,000
New and Upgraded CFA Stations $8,818,000
New Equipment for the SES $4,000,000
Supporting emergency responders
Payroll tax exemptions for volunteers
The government introduced an exemption from payroll tax to employers for wages paid or payable to employees performing certain volunteer services during bushfires and other emergencies.
This exemption took effect from 1 November 2006 and applies to employees not on official leave."
Note the payroll tax exemption for vollies employers. There is a lot more detail in the report available at www.dhs.vic.gov.au/emergency/bushfire_recovery_taskforce
Remember that Victoria doesn't have the ESL, so a lot of the funding is community based grants. As I said previously it is disgraceful that an identified gap is not being closed because Treasury won't hand over the cash, whats going to be cut next?
cheers
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where is south australia's moolah :cry: we all pay tax and seems a lot gets wasted by fools.
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Before we whine about funding, why not take a step back and look at what we, as CFS, actually have.
Better PPE than most Australian PAID services.
-Eg: PBI gold is only used in SA at the moment, Vic still use wool, NSW Have nomex.
Newer Appliances than most Australian PAID services.
-Eg: NSWFB still has old Scanias as front running appliances. Super Pump 1's exchange vehicle when its getting work done is still an ACCO. It was only a couple of months ago that the last front running ACCO was replaced in the Sydney Metro area.
Better Training, over a wider range of disciplines than most other Australian Volunteer Fire Services
-Eg: CFA do rescue/hazmat, but are also supplemented by paid personnel. RFS Don't do rescue/hazmat. Other states also just do fires.
The tools we use and the training we have a pretty damn good. All on a tiny budget. We have it pretty good.
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True & from the SES side we have the arguably the best RCR gear in the country, new vehicles, very good roof safety systems, chainsaws, vertical equipment and very good PPE. Not much point having this gear if a) no one to use it, b) no one trained to use it.
Thats what the point of the post was - no funding to continue driver training both 4x4 and Emergency response (non existent). The training package you speak of is delivered by the army & has done for many years, they don't let anyone drive their 4x4 trucks prior to doing the course. Maybe it as Zippy said " wasted by fools".
You can't on the one hand say this is important & then turn around and say "but we can't provide as we have no money". And $260,000 surely it hasn't cost that much! How many drivers have been trained? What has been delivered?
Food for thought - cheers
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CFS drivers should be undertaking the same training as MFS driver training AND 4x4 training. how about that? affordable?
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I think that driver training needs to be looked at far more seriously than it is currently. It's a basic safety issue. Courses like CFBT, Plantation and other such courses are nowhere near as important as basic emergency response driver training.
I know that people will probably blow up about that, but really, whats the use of extra training if you can't get to the job in a safe manner?
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If they at the top are really going to look at driver training then they need to look at changing the SOPS so that drivers can drive to the conditions but also can break the law in a safe manner....What do i mean by that well We are not allowed to go down the wrong side of the road with lights and siren going,we are not allowed to go around rounds abouts the wrong way and we are not allowed to go over the speed limit..Mind you the AUST ROAD RULES says that emergency vehicles are except from this rule as long as they have lights and siren going and are going to a urgent job....
I agree 100% we need better training but it must come from those that hold the qualifications and not from brigade members who have been driving for years...The safe of road course was the start now lets find the money and do the rest,this also should be extended to brigade's who's members also help SAAS with drivers and man power when they are busy and SAAS crew as to be broken up...
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dont forget that Police are watching Emergency Appliance drivers, and that there is a speed limit for Priority 1. 20km/h over the speed signage.
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Where is this SOP that states these things Blinkey? I have not seen it
The only thing i can find relevant to Emergency Response Driving in COSO 8. Which states we are allowed to do all of those things you have stated.
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We have it in an SOP 20 kmph that's about it those other things we can do / have done. Emergency driving is covered in our RCR course - theory only.
I think currently the situation is very dangerous & the cost would be tiny is a vehicle is involved in a fatality.
cheers
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....
Here is an extract from the Victorian report on the Bushfires earlier this year :- "A Stronger Emergency Service
Valuing Volunteers Program $3,000,000
Grants for Emergency Services Volunteer Groups $11,000,000
New Equipment for Volunteers $3,131,000
New and Improved SES Units $8,016,000
Strengthening the SES $26,332,000
New and Upgraded CFA Stations $8,818,000
New Equipment for the SES $4,000,000
.....
Remember that Victoria doesn't have the ESL, so a lot of the funding is community based grants.....
I am not sure how the total of $63 million detailed above compares favourably with the SA capital budget of $72.5 million for SES, CFS & MFS. (ref Budget Paper 5, Justice, 2007/08 SA Government Budget).
The total budget from SA Government 2007/08 (ref Budget Paper 4, Justice, 2007/08 SA Government Budget) is:
SAFECOM = 13.3 million
MFS = 89.3 million
CFS = 52.0 million
SES = 10.5 million
Total for ESO sector = $ 206.6 million
That is a lot of money that the public wants value for $$ spent.
Personally, I believe the concentration should be on keeping the budget at current value & spending wisely with duplication avoided.
It is going to be interesting during the next few years how ESO's deliver what the volunteers require to do the tasks (including training) without over-spending.
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Does the SES also get Federal funding? 10.5M seems very small for the amount of equipment training you seem to maintain...
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A tiny bit for disaster management, but your right its a small sum. A lot of the equipment that is currently out there was purchased from monies raised by communities prior to ESAU. For example two of our three vehicles were not funded by state government (the community paid for them)- it is highly likely that they won't be replaced. A lot of the equipment we carry is the same, only the latest RCR gear is funded by state government. And due to budget cut backs, there isn't a long term replacement plan. The boat is second hand - it replaced a Federal supplied boat, again there isn't funding to plan for its replacement. The word is when the boats are replaced somewhere in the future, not everyone will be replaced - numbers will be reduced.
And Andrew I agree with the sentiment but thats easy in the metro area where you have units/stations & brigades close by to mutually support each other, here in the country thats not an option. We don't have that luxury & we are not maintaining spending at current levels we have been sliding backwards for three years!
As I have said before there has been some improvements, new RCR gear, we have recently had a building upgrade (to accommodate regional HQ, Regional trg & CFS Group), new PPE etc. But if we just say everthing is ok, then the backwards slide will continue & in a few years the people will be untrained, equipment worn out etc. It will cost a lot more than $10.5 million! cheers
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Good god Blinky, I thank the heavens that I'm not in your brigade. Do you actually know whats going on or do you just make things up as you go along?
When driving under response conditions, as long as you can justify your actions if it all goes to scheiße, you can use the entire road, in almost any manner you see fit.
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Thats what I thought :wink: And Andrew that funding for the Vics is only whats come out of that report - its in addition to their normal funding. cheers
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If they at the top are really going to look at driver training then they need to look at changing the SOPS so that drivers can drive to the conditions but also can break the law in a safe manner....What do i mean by that well We are not allowed to go down the wrong side of the road with lights and siren going,we are not allowed to go around rounds abouts the wrong way and we are not allowed to go over the speed limit..Mind you the AUST ROAD RULES says that emergency vehicles are except from this rule as long as they have lights and siren going and are going to a urgent job....
What the he'll are you talking about blinky.... this must be some local BS you guys have, because it certainly is not a statewide thing.
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I think you should go and read COSO 7 & 8 Bill because we are already allowed to drive and break the rules normally applied under Priority 1,whilst driving with due care and attention.
ARR306(b)gives us exemption under Priority 1, and normal drivers also must comply with ARR78 "A driver must not move into the path of an approaching police or emergency vehicle that is displaying a blue or red flashing light(whether or not it is displaying other lights,sounding an alarm"
Normal restrictions still apply to us at School Crossings,Roadworks and Train/Tram Crossings etc.
So thats your homework this weekend :-P :lol:
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It is one of our brigade rules......we have been telling them we are allowed to do it but they wont allow us to.........
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i dont believe in the CFS dictionary the word "rule" exists... :roll:...Guidelines , standard practises and standing orders do
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It is one of our brigade rules......
whats the reasoning behind it?
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i dont believe in the CFS dictionary the word "rule" exists... :roll:...Guidelines , standard practises and standing orders do
SOP = Procedure :)