SA Firefighter
General Discussion => SASES => Topic started by: sesroadcrashrescue on March 03, 2008, 06:07:48 PM
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after being on a Land search course over the weekend and being informed that the Mounted team will be responded more i cant understand why the mounted team hasn't been responded as yet time being 1940hrs.
does anybody else have 2cents to say
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Who ran your course? - just curious thats all. Just I'm on the team thats reviewing the new (yet to be released) TRK & a Landsearch trainer yet I haven't been told any such thing.
Not that there is anything wrong with the mounted unit, I agree it should be utilised more (it costs a fair bit to maintain & is under utilised).
But as you would be aware, the SAPOL SARMAC decides what resources are used - we can only recommend!
So by making such a statement the person who told you this, may be giving you false hope.
As you are also aware the mounted unit takes a bit of time to deploy & also needs a bit more requirements (feed, water etc) where as quad bikes only require fuel(as you also know).
Finally out of all of the searches I've been involved in we have only had the dogs deployed twice (another two times stop called) & only on the search once & the dogs are easier to deploy than the horses! I can't think of one where we would need you guys (we use the backs of 4x4's & the bikes instead).
So I wish you luck & the next course (just like everyone in the past) I teach I will mention you guys, but as I said at the end of the day its up to our friends in blue to all you guys.
cheers
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Quite simply the terrain was not suitable for the horses. Overgrown, narrow, steep.
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it was mention that the mounted team is moving from north region to state and will still belong to Kapunda unit as a mounted response is a full unit response.
our mounted team is self reliant for 24hours before we need food supplies we carry water and hay
also our riders can move through most areas and have been used in the finders a lot and can go more places then quad or car can
how response time is reasonable considering the logistics of moving horses around and can be on the road in 30 to 60 mins depending on how many horses, pick up points and if the owners are home or need to get home first but in the last three years our longest mounted response time was 45mins (one mounted team member had to get home from gawler to RV with the truck and float)
but yes our team supposedly will be used more and more and possibly be on first response depending on what the search is for.
oh and for this new TRK whats the point in changing if its still not going to line up with the rest of the nation if your changing something to fall into line with other states doesnt it make sense so have the same training not having 8 differnt ways
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Sorry, but I am yet to see a horse climb a near vertical cliff in the dark.....
Half the tracks in Morialta are big enough to comfortably drive 34's through - which is perhaps quicker & easier than getting a horse there.
Many of the other tracks are very narrow (eg wide enough for a person to walk along) but not wide enough for a horse (bit hard to fit between large trees).
And some of the walking tracks lead to vertical / nearly vertical cliff faces....no good trying to get the horse to go up there!! :-)
Horse have their place in land searches, but I don't think this was one of them.
Pip
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Maybe its because they were located, so a relief deployment of crews was not required at dawn...
Not all metropolitan SES Units were deployed to the search either..
It was good to see two local CFS brigades deployed as well..
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From: http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,23312101-5006301,00.html
FOUR French-Canadian students lost in Morialta Conservation Park walked more than 12km before finding a house last night and calling police.
Police retrieved the quartet, three boys and a girl all aged 16, just after 8pm from the house in Gully Rd, Montacute.
Police and SES volunteers applauded as the students hugged worried teachers and the billet families they were staying with on their return.
The students' supervising teacher from Rochebelle School in Quebec Mario Lamontange said he was relieved to have the teenagers back safe.
"It's one of the best feelings in my life right now," he said.
"We were very fortunate tonight.
"They (the students) are very much relieved and very tired, exhausted and they want to talk to their parents."
The students, started the walk at 10.30am and were due back with the group of 40 student at 1.20pm. They were all wearing T-shirts and shorts.
A major search effort involving Police, SES volunteers, search dogs and the Rescue One helicopter was launched after the alarm was raised when the students hadn't returned within a couple of hours.
While rescuers were conducting their search, the group of teenagers walked out of the conservation park and into the Adelaide foothills looking for a house so they could contact emergency services, stopping only for water and rests.
When they found the house in Montacute the owner of the house let them, contacted police and fed them while they waited.
Sen-Sgt Scott Denny said police were pleased with the end result but warned it could have been worse.
"Given the fact that they're international students that aren't familiar with the area and given today's heat we could have been looking at some dehydration if it had have gone any longer," he said.
"But a very successful result in the end."
The four teenagers are expected to meet up with their classmates tomorrow before flying out of Adelaide on Wednesday.
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Just a question , with no intended implying behind it , why wouldn't the local CFS's Athelstone,Montacute,Cherryville and Norton Summit ,who must be very familiar with the park as they border on it, have been one of the first responders ? .Their knowledge of the terrain ,access tracks and having suitable vehicles close at hand , i would have thought , would of had them amongst the first called!
Cheers Jaff
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"oh and for this new TRK whats the point in changing if its still not going to line up with the rest of the nation if your changing something to fall into line with other states doesn't it make sense so have the same training not having 8 different ways"
The new TRK is the National Package - developed by the West Australians, tweaked & piloted by the Victorians & all we need to do is add some SA bits e.g. payed officer is to be involved when a search is activated etc.
Not sure who has been pulling your chain but, the facts are that all of the new TRK's except Map Reading & Navigation are from interstate & modified here to fit our modus operandi :-D. Map reading & Navigation was fully developed here, this was a long & involved project, so unless there isn't an interstate package it won't happen again! (he says hopefully!).
Wait until you see it before passing judgement as with all of the other TRK's people have found that they are far better than what we had previously & you will get more out of them e.g RCR(originally NSW),Induction(NSW), Map reading(a number of successful courses & happy students),General Rescue (NSW Under going a special pilot in East region soon & has been trialled in central waiting for release).
One of the most important things to remember is for units to train as per the TRK, instead of developing there own stuff loosely based on the subject matter. Anyway have patience as in my humble opinion the new Land search is a good course :-D.
As for those CFS units you mentioned Jaff, great idea are they qualified as land searchers? If not then NO they would not be considered as first responders but can assist qualified land search teams by intergrating with said teams (as general searchers under supervision). I have seen ad hoc searches conducted by the unqualified turn to filtered very fast & any clues that may have been around destroyed because people have stomped all over them! This includes what is termed "FAST" searches, it is far better to follow the process get a SAPOL SARMAC on site, work out the numbers & types of resources required & then get the job happening! As like anything there is a process that needs to be followed, sometimes what happens is people (local SAPOL, CFS, Locals & dare I say it even local SES units), race off & try & conduct a search without following the process & then decide to follow the process after several hours have past :-( By then the clues have gone cold, the target/s have had a chance to move further etc, etc.
I'm sorry if I'm about to offend some people but the "cowboy" days are gone, correct procedures, training, equipment, people etc must be used ever time, otherwise when it all goes to the coroners court, those who decided not to follow the process will be on there own! (Which happened last year!).
Finally it is the responsibility of SAPOL to arrange & conduct Land searches in this & every other state in Australia - in this state Star group is the section that controls the above. So if you think that the way SA conducts land searches then the matter needs to be bought to their attention :wink:
Sorry about the long reply but training & Landsearch in particular is a passion of mine, so the more I can help this state become more professional in this area before I go the happier I will be :-D (not saying that we aren't, but we can always do better!)
cheers
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Just a question , with no intended implying behind it , why wouldn't the local CFS's Athelstone,Montacute,Cherryville and Norton Summit ,who must be very familiar with the park as they border on it, have been one of the first responders ? .Their knowledge of the terrain ,access tracks and having suitable vehicles close at hand , i would have thought , would of had them amongst the first called!
Cheers Jaff
Fully agree, along with Eastern Suburbs SES which is the local Unit.
I would assume though that if you have too many people (eg 5 SES units & 2 CFS brigades @ 10 people each = 70 volunteers + DEH + SAPOL + SAAS + paid staff), it is damn hard to keep track of who is doing what to prevent the 'hurry, hurry, wait while we find you a job' syndrome.
Which I think (or hope) is the reason why some metro SES Units were not deployed & were held in case fresh crews were required at dawn.
In seriousness though, how many of the Brigades mentioned have been bushwalking & have had some search or map reading/navigation training ?
PS. Majority of the metro SES crews have local knowledge the parks and reserves in the Adelaide Hills. Search training and bush walking has been conducted in the parks.
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Police only called for assistance once their 2 choppers come up empty handed...
Montacute & NS were called pretty much straight away and Cherryville were requested by CFS members but not sure if they rolled to it..
I would assume though that if you have too many people (eg 5 SES units & 2 CFS brigades @ 10 people each = 70 volunteers + DEH + SAPOL + SAAS + paid staff), it is damn hard to keep track of who is doing what to prevent the 'hurry, hurry, wait while we find you a job' syndrome.
STAR had it run really well
17 search teams in total, all deployed within an hour, which is roughly one deployed every three minutes...
My team arrived and was sent out within 10 or so minutes, very different to the usual hurry up and wait, so it was very well planned and tracked
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STAR had it run really well
17 search teams in total, all deployed within an hour, which is roughly one deployed every three minutes...
My team arrived and was sent out within 10 or so minutes, very different to the usual hurry up and wait, so it was very well planned and tracked
17 search teams of 6 people per team = 107 searchers on the ground. Not bad for volunteers that get accused of being 'toooo slow' :wink: :roll:
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...why wouldn't the local CFS's ... have been one of the first responders ?
Why take resources offline for things that they are not trained to do? Perhaps tap personnel for their local knowledge but thats about it. Its not a Fire Service job, let the SES have some fun :)
As for sesroadcrashrescue, you're idiot mate. Use your head from time to time - it does come in handy.
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All I can say well done to all - Objectives achieved, everyone (well almost everyone :wink: ) is happy. No bad publicity - great job!
cheers
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The kids actually walked to the edge of the park, and went for help at the nearest house...which happened to be a CFS member, who was at the search..lucky his wife was home! :-)
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Can i ask what is actauly taught in a land search course? i may be ignorant but when looking for somone/thing as long as it is done in a ordered, calm and measuarble pattern won't that work?
thanks
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Yep - Done the course not the slightest bit of rocket science. Basic Map reading compass work or GPS and walk in a line.
Bit more expertise required to coordinate the whole thing but not hard.....
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Definitely not Rocket science but very easy to stuff it up!
Searchers & the people they are looking for have been lost due to simple mistakes.
And there is far more than walking in a line - its like me saying "fire fighting is easy put water on to fire easy"
However its not a hard course by a long way and the new one is easier - however it takes a lot of discipline so that important clues are not missed or destroyed!
And working out the time frame for survival, search areas, resources can get complicated.
In areas that don't have SES units or those who are CFS rescue should at least do the Landsearch course & have at least someone qualified to land search team leader.
Cheers
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Chook ,what are the sort of clues, that could be over looked or corrupted ,by inexperienced search crews in a public space like Morialta? Again this is not a stir or a shot ,just curiosity about something that on face value appears to be a fairly simple logistical scenario. Hence why im just a baggy arsed firefighter?
Cheers Jaff
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Maybe those with a problem should ring the MFS comms centre and ask why they responded the said CFS brigades?
1908870 18:47:58 03-03-08 MFS: *CFSRES INC052 03/03/08 18:47,RESPOND Rescue Search,NORTON SUMMIT RD,NORTON SUMMIT MAP 121 B 4 TG126,BACK SES TO RESCUE AT RV CENTRE P2,NORT00
This page looks like the SES asked for the CFS?
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Not taken as a shot Jaff, I will give you some examples:-
1) we tracked & found an at risk old woman by firstly following her foot prints & then later a blood trail on reeds (the first clue was dismissed by a less experienced team!).
2) we were trying to find a weapon used in a murder - however the foot prints left be the alledged murderer were contaminated by the initial response - further the scent trail couldn't be followed by the dog.
3) followed & located another alledged murderers camp by following footprints and some discreet questioning by the SAPOL officer attached to our team lead to the apprehension of the individual.
4) During one training course one team actually found $70 in a very public place!
I could sight others but I think you get the picture.
You would be surprised what individuals leave behind, when we conduct the course we show the students what to look for & how to discount old/nonrelevant clues.
And I have unfortunately marked students as NYC if they can't remain focused, contaminate incident scenes or are not physically capable. However there is a place for the non qualified - mixed in with competent persons. More eyes the better!
And I'm not saying every team placed in the field are "Guru's" but they do have the competency and hopefully the new course will remove some of the "nice to know" & there will be more practical exercises to re-enforce the core skills.
Anyway Jaff thanks for the interest, honestly it's refreshing that someone is actually interested in something we do that doesn't involve power tools :-D
And I actually conducted a basic intro to Landsearch for CFS people & they were good (found all of the chockies :wink: ) So hopefully your service will allow our service to train you guys if you see a need & our service will let us do it!
Again thanks Jaff cheers
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I would imagine the same basic principles are applied to both land search and not destroying evidence in a fire/mva incident.
You don't park you truck on the area of origin, nor do you remove all debris from the scene of a major accident, so why would it be any different from a land search?
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Yes you are right, but it is more than that (however your fire investigators would know what I'm talking about). Its searching for clues & using them to establish whether the target (or thing), is or was in the area you are searching.
Those who were ever in the Army would recognise some of the training as a scaled down version of patroling & tracking. Whats the old saying? seeing the wood for the trees? And its not just looking either its using all of the senses (believe it or not), using the training provided & experience.
Its also about being physically and mentally prepared, having the right equipment etc.
I guess I can't really say any more (& sadly can't attach the learners guide :-( ). So I guess a look at the AEM on Landsearch will help.
Anyway I hope thats answered some of your questions. cheers
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Thanks chook , the search scenario is obviouly not just a logistical problem.
But hey chook wouldnt every problem be better solved with power tools :-D
Cheers Jaff
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Yep your not wrong :-D
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Hi All, I have produced a new compilation video from the Adelaide TV News.
The TV footage covering "080304 Morialta search 04 Mar08" from Tuesday night's
news. Both SES and CFS members attended.
The video is a 21.3 MB file in Divx (mpeg4) format and runs about 4:53
minutes. The Web download location for the file is ftp://video:[email protected] and pick the file to FTP.
It is also available for viewing on YouTube at
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=eniEpzthCNg
Over the 4 news feeds it looks like both SES and CFS received about equal coverage but some reporters still do not know who is who with their voice overs. !
Cheers
Arno.
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Yep seemed pretty balanced to me - it was obviously the end of the search, explains why there was such a large gang of people around (100 searchers wow!)
Nice one mate
cheers
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pardon my ignorance toward land search jobs etc... but given the initial call was just before 3, Norwood patrols had a forward command established on scene shortly after 3, STAR Group & helicopter around 4pm....
Is it really necessary for an SES unit to respond under lights and sirens to this job after 8pm?
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pardon my ignorance toward land search jobs etc... but given the initial call was just before 3, Norwood patrols had a forward command established on scene shortly after 3, STAR Group & helicopter around 4pm....
Is it really necessary for an SES unit to respond under lights and sirens to this job after 8pm?
Good question in hindsight, but as each SES unit was contacted individually to responded they may not know the history of the event and maybe have been told to respond P1 or P2 with no other details except location to report to. also first crews rolled about 1630 hours.
Arno.
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Is it really necessary for an SES unit to respond under lights and sirens to this job after 8pm?
Of course. Where else would they get their jollies for the week?
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You are starting to turn rather nasty numbers - Is something wrong?
And in all honesty you blokes do they same thing - lights/ sirens in a Hino that can't get over 80!
Fair dinkum if I didn't know better I would have sworn some one in orange stole your big red truck when you were are kid! As I say to my guys "when you are perfect criticise others"
As I said in the other post "We are here to stay - get used to it!"
cheers
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You may be here to stay so we will deal with it.... But responding blues and two's when not required is only increasing the risk not only to the crew but also the public thus being around to stay is greatly reduced when you crash responding P1 and it's not required.... not even police went lights and sirens...
and AGAIN....
today to a building impact, SES already had 2 units on scene, MFS were still on scene (and had been for 45 minutes), CFS had been and gone home... The car wasn't going anywhere, ambo's had dealt with any injuries, SAPOL on scene.... NO MORE A LIFE THREAT.... yet an SES commodore is still going lights/sirens through a red light to the same job now 45 minutes old... Is this really required???
What's it going to take to risk manage when lights / sirens are required, or is it going to be a human life to turn around and say WHOOPS!
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Mate I don't have any of the facts, if it is a marked Commodore it is filtered payed staff. Did you get the number? Have you informed your senior officer of the incident? Have you submitted a grievance report?
Do you have all of the facts?
If you have good on you - let the system deal with it!
If not do us a favour - do the paperwork then the facts will be gathered & if what you say is true then this individual will be dealt with!
Before this alledged tosser does kill someone!
Otherwise this is just another example of interservice bitchin
Have a quiet day!
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not inerservice bitchin because i know we all do it sometimes within our services, how often do CFS "Duty Officers" respond P1 to inidents they arn't required at or just to make them "feel important".
But this isn't the first time this driver has done something like this... I've seen him driving P1 up the parade norwood again lights & sirens, hamming down with rain, midday so significant foot traffic, massive risk yet still doing it to none other than... yes a tree down! (on private property no life risk, it's already fallen!)
Can I ask though what training SES receive at a volly & staff level to drive & under what circumstance a P1 is authorised?
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Its covered under SOP's, we definitely cover it during the RCR course & from memory its covered in General Rescue.Don't know about payed staff however for every task type there is an instruction which covers level of response, priority etc.
If this individual has been seen by your good self doing this before, have you reported it? Because if what you say is true, then this person needs to be dealt with. Sadly I'm not in the metro area and am not part of the association (& not gifted with ESP :wink: ) I can't do sweet fa about it!
So my question still stands what have you done? As I said it needs to be addressed.
I'm sorry about accusing you of being one of the SES bashers! (Its been a bad week as far as Emergency Services go :wink: )
cheers
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Chooky, I was having a dig at the crew that decided to go P1 when it was not necessary, as I would to any SACFS, SAMFS or other emergency service crew. Its nothing personal, and I know that you guys are here to stay - a sad fact in many Urban areas ;)
You're the one who seems to have touchy issues this week. Relax mate, stop taking the discussions here to heart. There are morons in all services and I am happy to criticize them, regardless of uniform colour.
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Its covered under SOP's, we definitely cover it during the RCR course & from memory its covered in General Rescue.Don't know about payed staff however for every task type there is an instruction which covers level of response, priority etc.
If this individual has been seen by your good self doing this before, have you reported it? Because if what you say is true, then this person needs to be dealt with. Sadly I'm not in the metro area and am not part of the association (& not gifted with ESP :wink: ) I can't do sweet fa about it!
So my question still stands what have you done? As I said it needs to be addressed.
I'm sorry about accusing you of being one of the SES bashers! (Its been a bad week as far as Emergency Services go :wink: )
cheers
I think you'll find Mr.K is in a position where something could definately be done about it!..
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perhaps those who don't do much emergency responding feel they need the practice?!
lets be serious - after 8 years of being a paramedic - belting down a road at speed feeling tough because you're in a car with a lightbar and siren doesn't make you a hero!
At the end of the day, I want to get home to my wife and kids, and I certainly don't want to be standing in front of the coroner telling them why I was driving like a D I C K when I hit nanna jones belting around a blind corner because I thought I was on a racetrack!
SAAS's current system of telephone triage has a fall back mechanism that means that if there is for any reason the calltaker is "unable to assess" - then it defaults to Category 2. 99% of these cases are because the caller speaks little english, was drunk and unable to talk properly, accidentally set off their medical alarm as they walked out the door, rang 000 by accident after they sat on their home phone or the 2 yr old dialled it..... and a thousand variants on this!
add to this the people who've worked out that if they say the magic words- they get an ambulance on a cat 2 as well...and over 50% of our work is BS lights and sirens jobs!
my point? Lights and sirens isn't fun......it's a bit of an annoyance to be honest.......not to mention risky!
life is far too valuable to kill or injure someone....or yourself for the sake of a fallen tree or a car which has gone into a building an hour ago...
peace out!
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Can I ask though what training SES receive at a volly & staff level to drive & under what circumstance a P1 is authorised?
volly - same as CFS i vollies i believe ;)
staff - same as ambos i believe...
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Stefan KIRKMOE
The people in the "Big Red" fire trucks requested the P1 for SES after they had arrived........ as the building was about to collapse ...apparently.......... but apparently not once SES arrived.. Go Figure.....
You will also find that it was a direction from the Regional SES Commander to respond P1 to the Search, who was on-site with the police forward commander........
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At this time I can think of four SES paid staff who like the lights/siren switch in the metro area. I can also think of three plus metro volunteer Units who are slowly changing, but still like lights/sirens often.
Not sure how to deal with the issue when the volunteer who comments is accused of criticising an officer and then some volunteers follow the example given.
Still do not understand why so many paid staff in all services have lights/sirens on their cars when they are logistics/training/operations/group/regional/media/etc staff...where is the life threat any of them respond to ??
Also, why do they all need a GRN radio ? Majority can use the work paid for mobile telephone for their communication needs.
Give them magnetic base red/blue lights for fire ground use but save the money for better buildings.
....I feel better now that is off my chest.... :wink:
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At this time I can think of four SES paid staff who like the lights/siren switch in the metro area. I can also think of three plus metro volunteer Units who are slowly changing, but still like lights/sirens often.
Not sure how to deal with the issue when the volunteer who comments is accused of criticising an officer and then some volunteers follow the example given.
Still do not understand why so many paid staff in all services have lights/sirens on their cars when they are logistics/training/operations/group/regional/media/etc staff...where is the life threat any of them respond to ??
Also, why do they all need a GRN radio ? Majority can use the work paid for mobile telephone for their communication needs.
Give them magnetic base red/blue lights for fire ground use but save the money for better buildings.
....I feel better now that is off my chest.... :wink:
Andrew , agree that too much non essential P1 driving is done, for a multitude of reasons.
Disagree with the suggestion that the paid staff cars dont need lights, sirens and GRN radios. If we went down that road ,the cars would essentialy be civilian cars and then not suitable for any of the taskings that they are asked to do.
The paid staff in CFS have their roles changed as incidents arise ,they maybe working on a state based training module in the morning and by the afternoon be kilometers away helping manage a going incident in a lot of different capacities, they like us on the way to the incident would want to be kept up to date with current situations.
It may seem like a waste of money having all these vehicles equipped with the P1 kit, but these vehicles like our appliances are more than one dimensional and will always need the capacity to respond to any given task.
Sill we could always get rid of all the staff cars and make them use taxis, complete with non english speaking lost driver :-D.
Cheers Jaff
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pardon my ignorance toward land search jobs etc... but given the initial call was just before 3, Norwood patrols had a forward command established on scene shortly after 3, STAR Group & helicopter around 4pm....
Is it really necessary for an SES unit to respond under lights and sirens to this job after 8pm?
The reason for the P1 response to this task is that the SES were called with a couple of hours of daylight left..
STAR co-ordinators requested that incoming crews came P1 as to get them searching before loss of light.
Our call came in at 1900, so by the time crews got organised and on the road it was 1915ish if not later, arrival of 1940ish, so an hour of light to do some good work in.
As for the building impact job, no idea why P1 45 mins later was necessary...
Probably shouldve ready MATTY's reply before posting, nothing like some good old redundancy
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i'm still confused as to how a P1 response will aid in getting crews out quicker...especially in this situation.
Studies (sorry - don't have any online references for this!) conducted in the last 5 years have shown that on an average 8 minute emergency response time - other vehicles who respond without P1 arrive not less that 2 minutes later on average. Granted - there will be times such as peak hour (or peak 15 mins for adelaide) when it makes a difference, but in the bigger scheme of things, is putting staff at risk in order to save 2-5 mins in these situations really worth it?
Let's couple that with the Govt's planned changes to WorkCover, and ask ourselves if it's really worth it?
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Agreed
We do have to ask if its worth it
As this page will well make u ask..
18:26:50 08-03-08 MFS: *CFSRES INC076 08/03/08 18:26,RESPOND Rescue Animal,24 WEHL ST N,MT GAMBIER MAP 0 0 0 TG195,DOG STUCK IN FENCE - PRIORITY 1,MTG701 MFS Mt Gambier Response
Curious, anyone know why P1?