SA Firefighter
General Discussion => SAAS => Topic started by: ambogirl on January 17, 2011, 11:52:41 AM
-
Does anyone know of any casual PTS positions coming up this year? I heard there is a move to private ambulance companies supposedly happening before june so what is going to happen with SAAS patient transport?
-
A stack of jobs to be advertised shortly is the rumour.
Privates not having as big an impact on SAAS's workload as first anticipated.
-
A bunch of new PTS cars are starting next week covering 24/7 and they are a little stretched for staff to fill the extra shifts. Have heard a rumour that the latest bunch of casuals will be the last ones advertised for in the usual way and that future casuals will be drawn from the Uni ranks. No real substance to this, just something I heard on the road
-
PS, the reason for the extra PTS is so that ESS can be relieved of Cat 6s so that they in turn can take up Cat 4s and some Cat Cs (eventually, maybe 80% of them) so that Emerg can concentrate on Cat A & B.
-
A bunch of new PTS cars are starting next week covering 24/7 and they are a little stretched for staff to fill the extra shifts. Have heard a rumour that the latest bunch of casuals will be the last ones advertised for in the usual way and that future casuals will be drawn from the Uni ranks. No real substance to this, just something I heard on the road
You are right a course started redcently I believe. They are all uni students or graduates who are waiting to start their internship later this year.
-
Why would you just recruit from the uni's, you would know full well you aren't going to have long term employee's from this.
Is there such a thing as a permenant PTS ? Or do you move up to ESS ?
-
Why would you just recruit from the uni's, you would know full well you aren't going to have long term employee's from this.
Is there such a thing as a permenant PTS ? Or do you move up to ESS ?
it's a lazy HR/Recruitment approach. They get a look at the new meat before they graduate, see their work ethic, and then see which ones are worth the offer of a Paramedic Internship
There are long term permanent ATS members currently
-
It's so they can minimize the number of crusty old farts on ATS.
-
It's so they can minimize the number of crusty old farts on ATS.
And for paramedics (old and young) have somewhere to go.
-
Total waste of tax payers' funds since going government. :-P
-
A bunch of new PTS cars are starting next week covering 24/7 and they are a little stretched for staff to fill the extra shifts. Have heard a rumour that the latest bunch of casuals will be the last ones advertised for in the usual way and that future casuals will be drawn from the Uni ranks. No real substance to this, just something I heard on the road
You are right a course started yesterday from what I believe. They are all uni students or graduates who are waiting to start their internship later this year. They are on a temp. 5 month PTS contract. They do a 2 week quick training course only and must work with a qualified Cert. 4 Transport Officer. I had heard the PTS casual recruitment and course, due to start in Late Feb/Early March had been cancelled, but it might be rescheduled later?
does anyone know how far into the degree you need to be before you're eligible to apply for NEPT with SAAS or an equivalent provider?
would a student who has done their first year at flinders (and has consequently been trained to bls level) be eligible?
If so, is it plausible (time-wise) to work as a PTO while you study?
And would experience as a PTO significantly improve the student's employability with SAAS as a paramedic...?
cheers
-
Jayc.
Your talking about 2 different beasts.
Uni doesn't qualify u to do PTS.
-
Just a few observations on the above discussion:
Crusty Old Farts - Employing Non Emergency Services (NES) staff from the Uni ranks does not get rid of the COFs - they will be there until the reaper drives them away in the Big Black Ambulance. COFs and for that matter "Failed and Disaffected Paramedics" (FDPs) give Non Emergency Services a bad name and are universally disliked by the PTS/ESS members who see their part of the job as a valuable resource.
Why recruit Uni students? - Initially it was more of a political move because the students were not securing casual positions through traditional recruitment processes - they did not have the maturity or ability to put their clinical knowledge into practice. Now it looks like the rationale is to save on training time. From memory,the first few Cert IV intakes (Community Studies) were 14 or 16 weeks in the classroom with lots of practical assignments in between.
Being a PTS officer does not increase your chances of getting a paramedic intern job.
.
Don't for a minute think that the attitude and knowledge of Uni Casuals (good and bad) goes unnoticed on station. Make yourself a pain to your partner (who may be a COF) and the word will get around big time. You may make the internship, but you will be carrying a big question mark on your back from Day 1.
Also, don't think that an internship is the same as a job. Initially only a small percentage of the first graduate groups actually got into SAAS at paramedic level. Questions were asked in parliament as to why SAAS was not employing SA graduates etc etc. It was my understanding at the time that an Internship program would result in the maximum number of graduates being employed by SAAS - at least for 12 months or so. This stopped the "Ministerials" and gave SAAS more breathing room in selecting permanent staff.
The downside of this is that SAAS generally takes the easy way out and tends to offers unsuccessful interns ESS/PTS positions rather than giving them the flick - topping up the Non Emergency COF/FDP gene pool
-
"Also, don't think that an internship is the same as a job. Initially only a small percentage of the first graduate groups actually got into SAAS at paramedic level."
How many graduates got the internship? And how many interns progressed to become paramedics?
And is the internship unique to SA? You've made it sound as though someone with a para degree will have trouble gaining employment here. How does this compare to interstate?>
"Questions were asked in parliament as to why SAAS was not employing SA graduates etc etc."
Why weren't they?
What's the 'veteran' paramedic's view on the graduates applying for these internships? I hope they aren;tautomatically presumed to be incapable of doing a job they've studied for 3 years to do... simply because they haven't had as many birthdays as everyone else, or because they haven't taken the traditional pathway.
"The downside of this is that SAAS generally takes the easy way out and tends to offers unsuccessful interns ESS/PTS positions rather than giving them the flick - topping up the Non Emergency COF/FDP gene pool"
Have the unsuccessful graduates been employed in NEPT on a permanent basis? Does SAAS have a view to try and upgrade these graduates to paramedic level in the future?
-
"
What's the 'veteran' paramedic's view on the graduates applying for these internships? I hope they aren;tautomatically presumed to be incapable of doing a job they've studied for 3 years to do... simply because they haven't had as many birthdays as everyone else,
JayC the answer to this question is easy yes alot of older paramedics think that way
-
the figures aren't as bad as what i thought. as for the stigma though...
while i understand some of these interns may not be up to par, those sorts of generalizations are still unfair.
I wonder if Dr. Grantham's involvement with FUSA will affect the way in which graduates are received by SAAS...?
I agree, the WA model looks good. It'd become clear pretty quickly who works well in a practical sense and who doesn't...
But we do have 500hrs practical placement here, and a lot of your mark comes from practical examination. So as long as you take the candidates with good GPAs, then practical adeptness shouldn't be an issue.
To me the complusory two years of post yr12 work is meaningless. Although I guess they'd need a few years to get their full licence...
edit... what's your experience with students on placement/ para interns been like?
-
the stigma isn't because they're uni trained.
the stigma is because they're all coming out with the attitude that they know everything already - and then they fall over at the first hurdle they get to in a job when you let them go.
granted- they're not all like it, but the majority will speak for the minority.
the best ones are those who've had a life outside of ambulance and have gone back to study and then come out on the road. At least they have the ability to talk to someone without being aggressive, condescending or downright rude! (and that's not even the patients!)
-
the stigma isn't because they're uni trained.
the stigma is because they're all coming out with the attitude that they know everything already - and then they fall over at the first hurdle they get to in a job when you let them go.
granted- they're not all like it, but the majority will speak for the minority.
the best ones are those who've had a life outside of ambulance and have gone back to study and then come out on the road. At least they have the ability to talk to someone without being aggressive, condescending or downright rude! (and that's not even the patients!)
fair enough bored.
I have a lot of respect foir paramedics and for the profession. so i know that personally i'll always approach this career path with a lot of humility.Now especially, after seeing how graduates tend to be perceived, and what's lead to this perception...
cheers
-
Geez BM, who you been working with??? I find the majority of the people I work with pretty decent people, both grads/interns/degree through to diploma. I would think that it is more of a personal behaviour rather then whether or not they entered the service via a grad/intern program.
I do think life experience is important though.
-
A bit of wavy history (others more in the know feel free to correct my GOF memory)
Cannot remember the exact numbers, but the first few groups of grads were about 16-20 per graduating class. There was no such thing as an internship and the idea was that graduates would apply for jobs using traditional practices. Successful applicants were only going to spend something like 12 weeks in training before becoming paramedics
Something like 2-4 people got accepted from one of the initial groups and an irate parent who had forked out many thousands in uni fees went to their parliamentarian. The initial number of successful job seekers was inflated somewhat to the Press and parliament by offering some of the unsuccessful applicants ATS jobs. After this, SAAS management rethought the whole process and the end result was the development of the Internship (initially 12 months??) which was then further stretched out to include the NES components.
What's the 'veteran' paramedic's view on the graduates applying for these internships? I hope they aren;tautomatically presumed to be incapable of doing a job they've studied for 3 years to do... simply because they haven't had as many birthdays as everyone else,
Yep - that is pretty much the view - just the same as it is for any graduate in any profession. Uni does not teach you how to do a job, it just gives you a truckload of generic knowledge. In every profession you have to empty the bedpans and clean up the lab before they award you the Nobel Prize
There is a great scene in "Nurse Jackie" where she tells her graduate nurse to put her finger on a dressing on the neck of a trauma victim. "But you always treat me like a child - I want to do something important", says the Newbie.
Nurse Jackie tells her to take her finger away from the dressing, which dramatically shoots off under the pressure of an arterial bleed. Nurse Jackie: "See, it IS important"
-
Bugger off knackers....it's not about being nice- it's about being competent.
....And no....I don't care that you can tell me how knowledge of Sgarbossa's criteria can make young better clinician if you sit there for 25 mins trying to diagnose the infarction while the patient quietly wanders toward the light at the end of the tunnel.
-
sadly you're both right
The sad fact is that the Flinders degree does not prepare the graduate to be a paramedic on graduation (nor in FU's defence do many of the degrees around the place). It does a pretty average job of preparing a kid out of school for a job in SA Health
In my not so humble opinion (for those that know me) - there are very few professions where you can't do what you studied for once you finish. There is a degree ('scuse the pun) of cynicism from staff when it come to new grads..... many of their forebears are to blame for this with their non fragrant manure beliefs. Having said that, I watch new Grads all the time opting out of the little stuff, the not so glamorous and the dirty, thankless stuff. I don't think its a new phenomina, its just that in the days when we used to do that, we had some old fossil kicking our can earlier in the piece.....these days they just arrive at the can kicking rotation later in life and fuller of their own filtered liquid waste and importance.
It's up to the profession to sort out a meaningful career education profile and make sure they get better value for the money the Govt spends (in HECS). Sadly while its only CAA having a say on the end product, its unlikely to improve. Having a highly educated but poorly skilled and poorly utilised workforce that earns a shiteload of $$ isnt really in anyones interests....... most of all the patients who could do with a hand occasionally.
-
In my not so humble opinion (for those that know me) - there are very few professions where you can't do what you studied for once you finish.
Is this right? don;t you mean Can?
-
In my not so humble opinion (for those that know me) - there are very few professions where you can't do what you studied for once you finish.
Is this right? don;t you mean Can?
Umm....yes it's right.... There are very very few professions where you can not be employed in that profession the day after you graduate. Medicine and Pharmacy are the only ones I can think of.
When u finish Nursing, you are able to be employed next day as a Nurse. Same as for Engineer, Accountant, Lawyer (with a few restrictions), any other of the Para-Medical streams (OT, Physio, Radiographer etc). Its just that some Ambulance Services (and Ambulance folks)can't get their head around the concept, CAA hasnt made Universities accountable for their product AND no-one has told the students whats expected of them AND made them accountable either.
To keep it well and truly on topic - great motivation for a brand new qualifed Paramedic....stuck in a PTS/ESS truck with a bitter and twisted old Ambo, full of woe about the organisation and how it wasnt like that it was in their day. No wonder they look down on them and don't listen to them....the good info is buried under layers of b/s.
As an aside.....as a Cert IV unpaid type Ambo Occifer :-D ...... finish the exam one day, full crew the next day (and possibly in charge of a Cert II)
-
Similar in the IT industry as well.
A fresh graduate will not be allowed to take full control of a companies network. They would be started on the help desk phone or maintenance with supervision.
Everyone needs experience which the tertiary institutions do not seem to provide.
-
Oh ok Teddy I was a bit lost on the previous conversation about how degrees teach you facts and the the ability to learn more often than the ability to do a certain task in certain situations.
mine was a classic case of this
Do you think that the Way qualifications these days are seeming to become more important due to liability issues is distorting the way new members and staff are being treated and or the new staff's expectations of the job and role?
-
Similar in the IT industry as well.
A fresh graduate will not be allowed to take full control of a companies network. They would be started on the help desk phone or maintenance with supervision.
Everyone needs experience which the tertiary institutions do not seem to provide.
absolutely - and neither should anyone fresh into any industry with no experience be stepping straight into those roles.
from a practical perspective it's dangerous, and from a business perspective it could cost you a lot of money in both lost productivity and lost clients because of it!
I can't think of one single industry off the top of my head where you can walk in and instantly walk the walk and talk the talk.....
Tradies spend 4 years as an apprentice for a reason!
-
Being an orderly springs to mind :P 2 days training and off you go!
I must admit, all this talk makes me nervous. I am trying to do as much as is humanly possible to get as much experience in the field before I graduate (at the detriment to other things in my life):
A) So I can hopefully improve my chances of getting an Internship
and B) (more importantly) So that when I finish and I do get an internship I feel more confident in my other skills (communication, driving, SAAS procedures etc) so that I can focus on making sure I can get my Paramedic practice upto scratch.
However I still kind of think I am gonna be looked at as a filtered Graduate who has no idea about anything. There is nothing more I can do to make sure I am better prepared, so how can that be a poor reflection on me? Its kind of like hating someone as soon as you meet them because they barrack for a different footy team than you do.
-
Tradies spend 4 years as an apprentice for a reason!
Cos their training is steeped in folklore and history, propped up by union ressistance to change...sound familiar?
The good news is that their training is at least competency based....ie they dont finish till they can do it, which was my point.....just make the universities turn out competent graduates. For those that read the paper....the Govt has recently made changes to the trades and apprentice act....if they are competent before their time, they finish early - it will never catch on in tertairy education, they would lose too much money
-
No- the reputation is there because all these kids who have gotten high scores at school to get into one of the more popular degree programs have no idea how to:
1) keep their mouth shut at the appropriate times, and learn the line between assertion and aggression
2) admit that they are wrong or don't know
3) keep an open mind....the one method you are taught at uni isn't necessarily the only method
4) learn by working diligently and hard
5) understandthat they've just spent 3 years at uni learning all this stuff and only now are they going to start to learn how to be a paramedic.
6) understand that learning points 1,2+3 concurrently and interchangeably takes time.
-
:-o
-
Being an orderly springs to mind :P 2 days training and off you go!
I must admit, all this talk makes me nervous. I am trying to do as much as is humanly possible to get as much experience in the field before I graduate (at the detriment to other things in my life):
A) So I can hopefully improve my chances of getting an Internship
and B) (more importantly) So that when I finish and I do get an internship I feel more confident in my other skills (communication, driving, SAAS procedures etc) so that I can focus on making sure I can get my Paramedic practice upto scratch.
However I still kind of think I am gonna be looked at as a filtered Graduate who has no idea about anything. There is nothing more I can do to make sure I am better prepared, so how can that be a poor reflection on me? Its kind of like hating someone as soon as you meet them because they barrack for a different footy team than you do.
I am not in the ambulance industry, but have taken TAFE/Uni students into their first jobs in IT.
I will always treat a new employee with caution, no matter if their resume details a lot of practical experience or none. The potential to close the business for a day because they typed the wrong command on a keyboard or flicked the wrong switch is huge. Too big a risk.
That is why computer rooms are locked.
I assume the same potential to kill, make injuries worse or cause stress to relatives/passerbys/public in a Ambulance environment.
In IT, many times you will be employed on a contract basis first before given full-time employment.
I watch and give basic tasks for the first few weeks to the newbie (grunt is a nickname I use).
When I see the grunt do the basics well, they get more opportunities & trust.
The most dangerous grunt is the one who walks in & goes straight to the server keyboard to see what is happening. Because they know everything because Uni taught them. They normally do not get full-time employment offer and sometimes the contract is shortened.
This bypasses procedures (look at the network/server monitoring system first, read the procedures/memory jogger manual & talk to the HelpDesk staff for background on business impact).
You will be treated with caution when you first start. But if you can do the job & ask questions, caution will disappear quickly has trust develops & you become a team with your co-workers.
-
Have to agree with Boardy - both with apprentices & uni graduates - recent experiences with both have high lighted all of those comments. In fact we just lost an apprentice because of those things (wanted to do the good stuff without learning) & I gained a position at a new location over the far more qualified uni guys due to 1)extensive practical experience 2)the ability to actually listen to people!
And while it is true that in most industries you would theoretically move straight into your chosen profession upon graduation just like Andrew said the reality is you are closely watched & supervised (sometimes for years) prior to be left to fly solo!
And whilst I agree that this is disheartening for those who do put in the effort & some of it is based on the ideas of cranky old B******ds who just wont change with the times (eg why is the apprentice the only one who cleans up the workshop? -Well that's the way it was in my day!) until the education system can guarantee that the new graduates can really do the tasks in practice rather than just theory I'm not sure how this can change? In a way it is sad for the professions & sad for the new entries as well but that is just the way it is! Finally having changed jobs/ sites numerous times its not just new entries who face a 'testing" period :wink: I have never walked into a new worksite, unit, squadron or company & have been welcomed with open arms & given the keys to everything. Human nature I guess!
-
Does anyone know of any casual PTS positions coming up this year? I heard there is a move to private ambulance companies supposedly happening before june so what is going to happen with SAAS patient transport?
Wow - hasn't the thread changed somewhat since the initial question :-D
Don't ya just love forums - just like having a conversation in the front bar after work.
-
That's the thing about this forum, it'll end up heading into one of 4 directions:
1) how bad/dodgy private PTS companies are
2) how bad Paramedic grads are
3) how slack the SES are
4) CFS using K-Codes
:P
-
you mean - there's forums in this World-Wide-Web that don't slag, sling mud, hang $hit on other users or generally just start bad rumours?
...how boring!
-
From today's news letter
"recent review of the Ambulance Cover Terms and Conditions has resulted in some changes to the conditions; the main one being with regard to non-emergency ambulance transport. The subscriber will not have to pay for the cost of non-emergency ambulance transport if:
• the service is provided by SA Ambulance Service (SAAS), or
• the ambulance transport originates in another State or Territory and is provided by a recognised interstate ambulance service, or
for a transport service originating in South Australia, if:
• SAAS directs or requests another person to provide non-emergency ambulance transport,"
-
simply closing a loophole so they can't get stung by one of the privates- again...
-
As a long time subscriber, SAAS should recognise their subscribers for their continued support and not take advantage of them. It also pays part there of your wages as well. Victoria, NSW and other states recognise the support of long time subscriber. Why not SAAS? And the PTS clause about other person doing PTS is about filtered time as this service is slipping back into old habits. But not give the work to that small volunteer group. :-)
-
From today's staff news letter
"recent review of the Ambulance Cover Terms and Conditions has resulted in some changes to the conditions; the main one being with regard to non-emergency ambulance transport. The subscriber will not have to pay for the cost of non-emergency ambulance transport if:
• the service is provided by SA Ambulance Service (SAAS), or
• the ambulance transport originates in another State or Territory and is provided by a recognised interstate ambulance service, or
for a transport service originating in South Australia, if:
• SAAS directs or requests another person to provide non-emergency ambulance transport,"
Last line sounds interesting. Sceptic in me would say its sounds like SAAS/Health is paving the way for outsourcing some of its PTS work just like Ambulance Victoria and now NSW Ambulance does?
I am confused (nothing unusual).
Does this mean if my Dad is transported from a hospital to a home by a non-SAAS PTS that the home has organised, his Ambulance Insurance will not cover the cost ?
Even if we have no say in who provides the service ?
-
best bet wait until it comes out in black and white policy and not read into it on this forum.
-
I am confused (nothing unusual).
Does this mean if my Dad is transported from a hospital to a home by a non-SAAS PTS that the home has organised, his Ambulance Insurance will not cover the cost ?
Even if we have no say in who provides the service ?
If he is SAAS subscriber & the home chooses to use another PTS, correct.
Might depend on whether the home has a clause in their contract stating that
they do not use SAAS, and/or whether he has made it clear in writing that SAAS
is his only acceptable PTS provider. If there's no such clause in the home's
contract, and he has advised them in writing, he might be able to reject the
bill. Especially if he were in no fit state to recognise that the PTS wasn't
SAAS, & refuse the transfer.
If his ambulance cover is a benefit of a general health insurance fund, the
criteria is usually that the ambulance/PTS transfer be required on medical
grounds, in which case the fund probably doesn't care which PTS provides the
service. Cheaper ones preferred...
HTH
-
Might depend on whether the home has a clause in their contract stating that
they do not use SAAS, and/or whether he has made it clear in writing that SAAS
is his only acceptable PTS provider.
Every NH patient that I have ever met has an information book with all relevant medical/personal/contact details - including ambulance cover number. If that was there, I would say the NH would be obliged to use SAAS as their transport provider - regardless of NH preference.
-
The nursing home is obliged to do what is best for their resident. If they are covered by the ambulance fund, and SAAS can get them to their appointment on time and exercise patient care, then great.
But if they can't make it, why couldn't SAPS transport, get the patient to their destination sooner, and not have them miss their appointment and get booted from the clinic.
FYI,
A nursing home would never allow a patient to be transported by a private AS and then be charged personally for the service, nor would the private ambulance service bill the patient...
-
But if they can't make it, why couldn't SAPS transport, get the patient to their destination sooner, and not have them miss their appointment and get booted from the clinic.
And what's wrong with IMS?
Oh that's right....it's been a while.....time for you to start banging the Paramedical Services drum again.........
Seriously- we're not that interested in a bit of free marketing for your employer.......perhaps kudos for trying but it got boring a long time ago! Give it up!
-
Good to see the forum return to it's roots, private companies slagging each other off.
-
Bored Matrix seems to like to bag almost all, with one obvious omission...
-
Bored Matrix seems to like to bag almost all, with one obvious omission...
Lol.
Nope...I've had my thing to say about IMS as well in the past if you'd care to hunt back through.
-
yeh....I'm happy to stick up for Boredy.....he does slag everyone equally :lol:
-
Lol...thanks for the vote of confidence....I think! :evil:
Although I don't think i've had crack at you yet have I?
:-P
-
I like to think that thats because of the incredibly high standard of clinical care we provide......but it could also be because of the photos of you with the goat that I have...who knows :lol:
-
Lol....nah that's already out.....annoyed too many people when I was out bush for that to stay hidden!
Maybe I'm too balanced and fair in the targets of my criticism?
Time to put a stop to that i think......
-
I am not quite sure but it seems BoredMatrix is the FIRST one to CARE that one particular company is not targeted on here. To the outsider it would seem some paramedics expert comments on the forum are slightly tainted by commercial interests?
But kudos to those who discredit all rival volunteer and commercial operators in the interest of covert promotion of their own commercial interests...