SA Firefighter
Equipment => All Equipment discussion => Topic started by: SOCC on February 14, 2006, 12:08:34 PM
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Are groups and brigades putting orders in for all their BA operators with this grant?
Some groups I have spoken to have only ordered 5 or 6 sets, whats with that, its not coming put the annual budget, my group has kitted every operator out, kinda strange not to take full advantage of this chance?
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my group seem to be avoiding the issue completely, and seem to be against PBI completely... i dont understand why, i think they are just being (ummmm)...
really really really pissing me off... especially when ya keep asking captain/looies to follow it up or ask questions at group and nothing happens cos they dont give a scheiße either.. very annoying.
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This is a great opportunity, not sure why Brigades/Groups are not taking full advantage and kitting out every BA wearer. I know our Brigade will be making sure every operator has the PBI gold.
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it astounds me that state wont put there foot down and tell groups to cut the crap... why is it that they put up with vollies trying to run there own private fire service.
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FOR CABA OPERATORS - THERE WILL BE A TRY ON FOR PBI GOLD STRUCTURE GARMENTS AT KIMBA STATION FROM 1700 TO 1800 THURSDAY 16 FEB 2006 R6HQ OPS 14/02/2006 4:27:43 PM
Seems some brigades have acted on it
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it astounds me that state wont put there foot down and tell groups to cut the crap... why is it that they put up with vollies trying to run there own private fire service.
Cause they're vollies and if you get them offside they quit :-D
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Its ur brigade members to put up a fight medevac ! No joke mate, do it quick, or ull miss out !! This could be the real only chance to get PBI gold !! WIHTOUT the brigade paying for it !!
SERIOUSLY give ur officers a talking to, or get some one in HQ to do it.. (Or just order it urself !! Its STUPID if they dont let u get it !!!!
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unfortunately i dont think any officer in my brigade really cares...
i am trying tho'...
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In our Region every BA operator was a letter to their home address advising them of times, dates and venues for the size up, so really the it is up to individual to make the effort and just get it done and the officers are really not in the loop to have a say if it gets done or not.
GO THE PBI GOLD!!
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I'm from a smaller brigade with about 20 BA opperators. I recieved no letter in the mail about PBI gold, and our brigade has only been allocated 2 sets per year.. so.. with 2 sets per year, 20 opperators, and a 5 year lifespan on PBI gold, you do the math.. it doesnt work.
A friend of mine was at our area HQ tonight, and he watched every BA opperator get a suit.. interesting
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hmmm sounds very wrong...
there is absoloutely no reason why all of your BA operators shudnt be getting suited up straight away... make sure yopu question this backburner...
meantime i am making very little progress...
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Mawson Group was one of the first to put it's order in, in fact we had it in by the end of the week the announcement was made. Our PBI for all BA operators arrived last night, that would make it about eight weeks from the Premier making the announcement to arrival of the gear - not bad going really.
Best bit is it didn't cost the brigade a cent :)
C'mon guys push your groups hard if you haven't placed an order yet, the goodwill won't last forever.
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I'm from a smaller brigade with about 20 BA opperators.
I too am from a small Brigade - With 6 BA operators!! We, along with the rest of the Group were fitted out last night. It took all of 10 minutes per person! Not sure if your troubles lie with Group or Region, but get onto it. As stated before, EVERY BA operator should receive the new PBI Gold under the Government 'gift'. God help the person who refused you this PPC when something goes wrong and questions are asked.
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mmm yeah if i dont get issued the gear, and i get burnt... then certain people are going to have certain legal issues...
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So what are you going to do when your gear is a way getting cleaned?
User you gear that meets the Australian Standard
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So what are you going to do when your gear is a way getting cleaned?
User you gear that meets the Australian Standard
nomex doesnt meet the australian standards for sstructural work. not the way CFS issued it without pants liners.
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When does this "free PBI Gold" thingymajig finish? IN a year or two will brigades still be able to get it without it coming from their budget?
What is the blue MFS turnout made of?
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I stand corrected but i think the orders had to be in by the 18th of March. Not exactly sure of the date but was mid march 2006.
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blue MFS gear was nomex.
mid-march? well i guess im screwed.
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You would think they would contact the groups/brigades that have done anything about ordering PBI and ask them why they havent done so?
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but that would be proactive..... :-P
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i think that has happened, several meetings seem to have taken place, unfortunately no-one at group or any brigade reps to group meeting tell ya anything about it.
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I know this has been discussed before, but I thought the Group Officers in Region One decided that PBI was only to be worn to structure fires and alarms. Has anything about this come out in writing or changed recently ??
I found this pic on the promotions unit website of a brigade in Region One at an MVA, just wanted to know where we stand on this now.
(http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~rozmcgowan/photogallery/page11photos/1-teringie-Dsc_7121.jpg)
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brigades and groups will continue to make up there own rules, and then ofcourse there are just the tools whho like to be "cool" and do there own thing...
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Talking to a couple guys at a group in the hills and they said they just wear it to everything now.
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oooooh rebel!
Makes sense to wear it, youve got it so may as well use it. Looks better than the yellow.
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Yeah but it's filtered HOT.... I'd hate to be wearing it while working at an RCR on a hot day let alone at a rural fire...
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You'll probably find that once everyone starts getting it in 6 - 12 months everyone will be using it for everything and anything. Bit like the 'not wearing structure helmets to grass fires thing. ' It wore off after a while
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Bit hard to not wear structur helmet to grassfires when its the only helmet you have... LOL, good policy that one.
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Just remember all it takes is one person to fall over and they believe everyone will.
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mmm
just got a page then saying that we are finally getting sized up. looks like something has finally happened.
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we sized all our BA operators. the problem i have with PBI gold is how they have to be properly washed by Lion. What happens during this time if we get a structural fire? do we wear our old level gear? Whats the deal? apart from that i think it looks ok.
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so medevac do you take all your complaing about the group back
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so medevac do you take all your complaing about the group back
negative - its taken them way too long to organise this. and very little information has been passed to the firefighters.
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You would think they would contact the groups/brigades that have done anything about ordering PBI and ask them why they havent done so?
We're all adults here. Do Regions really need to chase people up on everything - they have done their bit sending the info to groups for dates of sizing etc. 'You can lead the horse to water but you can't make it drink'.
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probie boy, time to grow some brains mate. you've obviously had your head in a hole. every BA operator state wide is supposed to be getting it. (as long as they get sized up and order it)
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point taken.
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let's play nice in the sand pit... :-D
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and the half the state who still have overalls are probally happy in overalls :-D, otherwise I'm sure they would push for a change to two piece ..... what ever style they may be :|
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beats thongs, stubby's and a blue singlet :roll:
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beats thongs, stubby's and a blue singlet :roll:
Unless you're in the pub, of course. :-D
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and an akubra!!!!
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a VB is also good. some of those small country brigades ( the ones in overalls) are classics. I remember at murray bridge we were parked next to one of these brigades. Theres filtered smoke evrywhere, you can't see a thing and one of these guys is on the back of his truck spraying water with a ciggie in his mouth. i thought "like there isn't enough smoke in your lungs already!" legends.
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Thought I was in 'Off Topic' for a minute...
How many members have actually received their PBI from this new order.. / How many members currently have PBI..
I do.
Will be interesting to see how many members out there are in PBI.. ?
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Was informed that orders placed to be paid for out of this gov. "grant" won't be delivered until may/june.
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from what i understand, some brigades have alrady had theres delivered...
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Yep. Some have already been delivered del.
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Quick question to anyone who has had their PBI delivered recently did it come with a flash-hood. Just curious.
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hah - doubt it. why would they go the extra mile?
wudbe great though...
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Negative on the flashhoods, apparently an S.O.P. from an interstate fire service is now floating around that is the basis of the training guidlines for their use. It has some support from Region, now just waiting on HQ final approval apparently.
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In a discussion at brigade level we figured that once sized up it woudnt be another 6-8 months before we recieve the PBI. i dont have my BA now but shoulf have it in 2 months. I believe the logical thing to do is get sized up but everyone has there own opinion. Its rather stupid to have the qualification and no PBI.
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In a discussion at brigade level we figured that once sized up it woudnt be another 6-8 months before we recieve the PBI.
Got measured up just recently and got told 12 weeks to delivery, cant work out why you'd be 6-8 months?
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This is an extract from the Premier's media release.
This upgrade will provide:
Proban Wildland Fire Fighter Personal Protective Clothing for 1,574 fire fighters at a cost of $394,000 by the end of February.
PBI Gold Personal Protective Clothing for 1,230 fire fighters, suited to structural fire fighting, at a cost of $1.556 million, by the end of June.
Well, we haven't seen the Proban yet but the PBI does look promising!
See here for more info
http://www.ministers.sa.gov.au/minister.asp?mId=3&pId=6&iHealth=0&sId=5931
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ALL CABA OPERATORS AND INTENDING OPERATORS BE AT CUMMINS STATION TUES. 14 MARCH 2000HRS FOR SIZING NEW PBI GOLD. R6 BSO R6HQ OPS 7/03/2006 1:44:57 PM
Mmmmmmmmm. Thought the 'gift' was for BA wearers - As is, now on TAS, otherwise Brigades would fit out all members. Although reading the post again, it may mean that the 'intended' operators might be going for a look to see what all the new gear is about for when the group purchases some for them after they complete their course. :? I guess we will never know :|
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Our group did the right thing they went out and bought the new cabd members the PBI gear but I would like to know will we get rembursed for what we paid out before the offer came along??? Our group was the first in region five to get the new gear and I think there is only one other group that have bought it?
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I suppose theres no harm in people getting sized up, at least the brigade would know what size to get them when they become BA operators.
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There will be no reimbursement of costs for those that already have PBI.
The grand plan is that you will get measured up prior to attending your BA course (Those that haven't yet done one). Then you will get your PBI when you pass the course, with your certificate.
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The grand plan is that you will get measured up prior to attending your BA course (Those that haven't yet done one). Then you will get your PBI when you pass the course, with your certificate.
Yeah right :lol:
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I see,so if a brigade does a RCR course do they get RCR gear once they have done the course???
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Our group did the right thing they went out and bought the new cabd members the PBI gear but I would like to know will we get rembursed for what we paid out before the offer came along??? Our group was the first in region five to get the new gear and I think there is only one other group that have bought it?
dont qoute me, but i think mt barker got reimbursed
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Why did CFS and MFS get the same colour of PBI when all the time we have been "yellow or blue" The black PBI would have looked good, that'd be more suitable for MFS seeing as black attracts sun. I know they got different striping, but seeing as the MFS are traditionally a darker colour, why not black gold PBI?
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not only would black affect general visibility a bit, but also imagine how much hotter it would get... and heat already seems to be some kind of issue...
CFS and MFS have the same colour... PBI, but CFS has yellow reflective stripes whereas Mets have gone with orange...
i dont personally see any reason for MFS and CFS uniforms to be too diff.
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Isnt the color of it (fawn) its natural color?? And by keeping it that color you save $$ as you dont have to dye it.
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I know black affects heat, thats why it would go to MFS who were blue which is dark and bad for visibilty anyway. Wasnt saying they should go different, but they always have been, just thinking out loud why they have now gone the same.
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wouldnt the colour be gold...
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no, its more of a khaki. Still prefer the black though...
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Good to see some common sense with the same colour PPE (saves tax payer dollars, ensures consistency and at the end of the day the user of the fire service doesn't give a toss :-D)
More standardisation to come - I hope, the days of being different because we are different services (who deliver the same service) is a complete load of crap, its an old mans tradition and a complete waste of money - time to move forward standing side by side and making the most of the $$$$$ available :lol:
As for black - the times are changing, it's great to see fire services world wide going for lighter colours - greater visibility, greater safety and of course easier to detect when dirty, hence needs a clean
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wouldnt the colour be gold...
as in PBI gold... (its called sarcasm)
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I know, replying with a hint of sarcasm along with the colour debate.
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There will be no reimbursement of costs for those that already have PBI.
The grand plan is that you will get measured up prior to attending your BA course (Those that haven't yet done one). Then you will get your PBI when you pass the course, with your certificate.
Ive heard quite the opposite... I have heard of a brigade being re-imbursed for the PBI they purchased before the grant...
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We should be able to choose.. personally I think a lilac or other purple shade would match my eyes.. and I think we should choose our reflective stripes too.. I think green and blue.. perhaps a matchin handbag aswell..
I think it's good that CFS and Mets are the same. The public get confused enough with the two different truck colours.. I like the fawn colour too.
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well said!
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just a bit of information from the inside,
ALL NEW ba operators will be fitted on the Saturday of a Full course, a rep frome lion will be at stc to mesure them up at lunch time.
unsure who is paying for it.
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We should be able to choose.. personally I think a lilac or other purple shade would match my eyes.. and I think we should choose our reflective stripes too.. I think green and blue.. perhaps a matchin handbag aswell..
I think it's good that CFS and Mets are the same. The public get confused enough with the two different truck colours.. I like the fawn colour too.
Only diff. is MEts have Pink stripes, we have the yellow..
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just a bit of information from the inside,
ALL NEW ba operators will be fitted on the Saturday of a Full course, a rep frome lion will be at stc to mesure them up at lunch time.
unsure who is paying for it.
Will they be handing out flash hoods too.... :P
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Did you know that you can always tell a man (or woman) by the colour of their stripes :lol: :-P
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hahahaha :lol: :mrgreen:
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Did you know that you can always tell a man (or woman) by the colour of their stripes :lol: :-P
ahh.. major mental blank.. whats that from ?
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I'd be happy with a Scania with yellow rather than pink stripes ;) - but thats slightly off topic... All of my brigade's BA operators was measured up last year, and we still haven't been sent any more PBI Gold :(
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Thats ok if you are going to STC to do the course but what about the people that go to local T.C and do the course????
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Way off topic here, but everyone says MFS have pink stripes, I always saw it as orange. :-P
CFS firey, how ocme they measured up your entire brigade, thought it would just be BA ops.
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Sorry, I meant all the BA operators.. its changed now...
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No worries :wink:
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Has anyone heard how Lion are going filling the order? Did hear they were hoping to have it all distributed by the end of June.
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havnet heard anything at all since cize up... other than we are being supplied a flash hood with it, and group are getting us all structural gloves... big thumbs up.
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Has anyone heard how Lion are going filling the order? Did hear they were hoping to have it all distributed by the end of June.
Was On A Course Not Long Ago & They Were Running A BA Course & Overheard The Lion Rep Mention That It Should Be Out By The End Of June As Well. Will Wait & See.
As For Structural Gloves We Have Been Told That Our Normal Gloves Are Fine. Flash Hoods I Am Unsure On.
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'Normal Gloves' I asume you mean the Pacific (i think?) leather gloves? It is specifically written on the sheet that comes with the gloves. "Not to be used for internal structural attack' or words to that extent.
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Flash Hoods I Am Unsure On.
im pretty sure i read somewhere that evryones PBI comes with a flashhood.... not just our groups.
this may sound stupid but, hopefully those flashhoods come with some training...
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i think there's a video you have to watch. Pretty lame i know but better than nothing
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I know this has been discussed elsewhere, but how can you go wrong with a flashood? Apart from thinking you can use compartment techniques because you have a flashood, the worst you could do is put it on back to front and walk into a wall...
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i can think of many other issues... ive seen ppl attempt several differant ways of wearing them LOL :mrgreen:
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hehe, that could make for an amusing discussion... "How to injure yourself with a flashood"... something for the humour zone? :P :)
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'Normal Gloves' I asume you mean the Pacific (i think?) leather gloves? It is specifically written on the sheet that comes with the gloves. "Not to be used for internal structural attack' or words to that extent.
Thats The Gloves. We Will Have To See What Happens.
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Flash Hoods I Am Unsure On.
im pretty sure i read somewhere that evryones PBI comes with a flashhood.... not just our groups.
this may sound stupid but, hopefully those flashhoods come with some training...
Our brigade got flash hoods with the PBI
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When did they get them? If they came all together this may be a good sign...
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bout a month ago.
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Best training with a flash hood - it's just another piece of PPE - it doesn't make you invincible or unburnable!
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I wonder if those issued with PBI before the grant will get flashhoods as well :?
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Ye sure ............
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Actually there is a procedure for putting on a flashood, you should be putting it on your head first then put your jacket on so the at the long part that comes down to your shoulders actually is covered in by the jacket. You then roll the bit that sits on your head back so that it sits on the top of the back of the jacket.
I've probably made it sound more difficult than it is but I trained our guys in the procedure in about 15 mins, the video runs about 10 mins and then we had slides with the correct procedures and washing and handling instructions.
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^^exactly my point^^
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Well if there is to be a cut in the CFS budget may be Nomex will come back on the shelf..... :mrgreen:
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hah LMFAO
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:-D :-D :-D
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Is SA the only fire service in AUS to have PBI with its fire services?
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well i think just found out why my PBI hasnt arrived yet...
at the last brigade meeting we found out that group had told region that we didnt want the PBI and they had to keep it until they gave us some paper work detailing where it could be used at what incidents, and the cleaning procedure, apparently they also said we didnt want it due to the cleaning costs being forced on the group...
its amazing how the group can say "WE" dont want it, when none of the brigades have ever been consulted...
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funny how thing keep repeating isnt it... what have we said in most other threads about consultation!
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im just extremely peeved that there is never any consultation with brigades (or at least the consultation never makes it back to the people in the brigade that matter... THE FIREFIGHTERS!!!) before thee decisions are made.
besides im under the impression that even if there is no documentation at regional level, that there was some at state level, and surely that has more weight behind it anyway...
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Its simple! Wear it to everything bar a grassfire, or an MVA on a hot day!
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PF, I think SA was the first state to introduce it, but other states are now getting it also.
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Sounds like a common thing in your group medevac????
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hahaha lack of communication - no filtered!!!
gotta love it though
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Its simple! Wear it to everything bar a grassfire, or an MVA on a hot day!
doesnt sound like we'll be wearing it to anything :|
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send it all back get the green stuff.............
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Ohh medevac you seem so young and keen ( i like that )
Having been an all sides before group, brigade management and the best place firefighter. You should have been told why you are not getting the PBI. Sounds like it is not geeting back from group/brigade management to you.
At group the decision would have been made by the GO and brigade reps, they might have had some good reasons( i don't know the facts) but it could be as simples as a budget issue ( hey don't all jump up and down over this, money makes too many decisions )if your group has X amount of PBI to clean each year and budgets are tight, where is the money coming from, what do you cut back on ???
Ask at your next brigade meeting why, it is your right to question or just go and ask your captain or if you see your GO just ask him why. The easiest think is to sit back and have a go at the system, sometimes you win if you question
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^^Tight budget?? Medevac is in Sturt group, i don't think they've ever heard the words tight budget before.... :lol:
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:-D
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But but but, the CFS PBI Gold instruction manual has alll the cleaning instructions and a 'Reccomendation' to use the Lion washing service.
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Now I have it on good advice that if CFA get PDI gold that they can take the gear to a local dry cleaner and he can do the job as long as he follow's the instructions.......Now why can't we do that??? I would say someone did not read the fine print of the contract???
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Maybe if it gets filtered up they dont want to shell out another 2 grand, dunno just thoughts.
Recomendation? Is hat a recomendation wink wink or a recomendation as in do as you wish.
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Be very clear that the CFS PBI care instructions include laundering by the wearer. No one is making you return the gear to Lion.
But think about it. You have a $1300 set of gear and you want to wash it yourself and risk damage. I would prefer to pay the very small amount of cash and have the brigades gear professionally washed, inspected and re-certified. That way you know the gear is good to go.
We are not talking much money per year to have your gear sent to Lion.
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firefrog that is fine but keep in mind that brigade's in the country are having problems just getting a loan set of gear while there PBI gear is away......
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@ - fire03rescue
and your telling me that everyone in your brigade and the rest of the group are happy with the decision? perhaps the reason our budget is too "tight" to get the gear laundered, is because money is being spent on extra equipment outside of standard approved stowage?
very little information makes it from group to brigade reps to brigade meeting...
it doesnt matter anyway.
to put it simply the group is sacrificing firefighter safety.
ask your captain
kind of hard when your captain says he wasnt listening properly, because its a matter that didnt really 'bother' him.
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besides ive had my whinge on here about his topic before anyway. as has been said by myself and others, it doesnt help anything.
my original post was purely to say id worked out why my gear hadnt arrived ;)
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Tight budget?? Medevac is in Sturt group, i don't think they've ever heard the words tight budget before
Gee weren't Sturt Group also the one group in the state that flat out refused to change to GRN paging, yes they might be progressive in some areas but other times they seem very ignorant.
Their reaction to PBI wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that one of the DGO's runs a Fire and Rescue supply company that has sold more Nomex to brigades than anyone else in this state.
Medevac - I feel for you bro, chin up and keep fighting the good fight.
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Well here we are in July and still no PBI in my group. Despite ordering it in may. I am starting to wonder if we will ever get it!!!
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Well here we are in July and still no PBI in my group. Despite ordering it in may. I am starting to wonder if we will ever get it!!!
LOL I Know Of A Group That Has Had The Stuff Since The 2005 Show & It Still Hasnt Been Issued.
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Well the gear must be on the way, our group got it's order and issued it on Friday.
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We received our second batch last week, all of our BA operators have it now. Good to see it comes with a flashhood as well, no info on the hood though.
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We had to watch the video of how to use the flash hoods. Pretty intense put them on before your jacket and put the opening on the front .lol
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you would be amazed how many wierd ways I have seen hoods put on! I always laugh when people try to tuck them in after putting the jacket on first.
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Common Sense Doesnt Apply To Us.
I Mean Common Sense People. Put On Flash Hood, Put On Jacket So That The Bottom Of The Hood In In Your Jacket Hence Protecting You Better.
I Saw Someone Put It On Backwards It Was Funny Though.
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No. Face mask on, helmet on, collar up, flash hood stretches over the helmet and velcros to the top of the turn out coat.
Seriously, how many ways are there to put the damn thing on ?
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Hooray, got ours tonight.
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and you're still alive! :P
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There are cobwebs between my ears. Although they may have always been there...
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likewise, I can see some fun being had with the velcro naame tags!
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All I want is a name tag run with A. filtered, I.N.Competent etc etc.
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well sounds like we are finally getting PBI...
but with very strange restrictions.
so; my question is....
what restrictions do other brigades/groups have on its use? personally i would like to see it used for everything with the exception of wildfires.... (with obvious common sense being used on hot days re; MVAs)
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well sounds like we are finally getting PBI...
but with very strange restrictions.
so; my question is....
what restrictions do other brigades/groups have on its use? personally i would like to see it used for everything with the exception of wildfires.... (with obvious common sense being used on hot days re; MVAs)
People in our brigade tends to wear it to everything bar grassfires/wildfire. Though there are still the occasional idiots who wear it anyway, despite the heat...
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The article in the latest volunteer says anything but grass/rural type fires
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Still Waiting...
They Had Issued Me With Some Loan Nomex Gear Until Mine Arrives.
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The article in the latest volunteer says anything but grass/rural type fires
mmmmm i read that..... the group seem to be making up there own rules though.
cheers...
anyone else have strange conditions to comply with?
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The article in the latest volunteer says anything but grass/rural type fires
Thats what standards the PPC complies with but is that the CFS policy :? Haven't seen anything in writing to Brigades or Groups.
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The article in the latest volunteer says anything but grass/rural type fires
mmmmm i read that..... the group seem to be making up there own rules though.
cheers...
anyone else have strange conditions to comply with?
True as posted in the PBI Gold thread our group's conditions are structure fires/private/fixed alarms or anything with a domestic response and thats it :-P
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In early 2006, the Country Fire Service (CFS)received funding to roll out the new PBI Gold structural firefighting garments and to provide wildland garments to replace older style clothing that is no longer fit for purpose.
By the end of July 2006, more than 1,400 sets of structural garments and 494 sets of wildland garments had been received and distributed to brigades, with some additional garments still to be delivered.
Also being delivered are 1,500 flash hoods to complement the structural garments.
Delivery of these items will result in every currently competent CABA wearer being issued with the latest quality protective clothing to improve fire fighter safety.
Standards for PPE
This table provides a quick guide to assist in determining what may be used in various circumstances.
All PPE used in CFS must be certified as compliant with the appropriate standard.
STANDARD ITEM MAY BE USED IN
AS1801 Type 3 Wildland Helmet All areas except internal structural firefighting
AS2161.6 Type 1 Wildland Glove Wildland firefighting
AS2161.6 Type 2 or 3 Structural Glove All areas
AS4067 Structural Helmet All areas
AS4821 Type 1 Wildland Boot Wildland firefighting (Includes Taipan elastic sided boot)
AS4821 Type 2 Structural Boot All areas
AS4824 Wildland Garment All areas except internal structural firefighting
EN467 Structural Garment All areas except Wildland
firefighting (Lion PBI Gold)
This was extracted from the latest volunteer - for info. Make sure you have a look at the article in the volunteer!
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1909144 20:21:37 24-10-06 CABA OPERATORS YOUR BAGS FOR YOUR PBI GOLD ARE IN YOUR LOCKERS - AS ARE NEW VISORS FOR STRUCTURAL HELMETS - UNLESS A PAGE SPECIFICALLY SAYS STRUCTURE FIRE YELLOW IS TO BE WORN - PBI CARRIED IN BAG - CAPTAIN
So have Brigades/Groups seen anything official from Region/State regarding the usage of PBI gold or just what has been published in the Volunteer.
Some Brigades have had the stuff for a while now - what are you wearing it too?
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Still haven't seen anything official... I wear it to anything where BA may have to be worn... (So basically anything but rural jobs....)
What happens if you get injured fighting a structure fire in your yellows when you have PBI Gold? Would that be considered the same as doing a rescue with no gloves on?
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Still haven't seen anything official... I wear it to anything where BA may have to be worn... (So basically anything but rural jobs....)
So that would include RCR's and MVA's?
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So that would include RCR's and MVA's?
Affirmative.
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I don't have it as I haven't done BA yet but our brigade uses it for everything where BA might be used as well.
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Even if youve done BA it still takes a while to get...
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Well I Am Coming Up To 5 Or 6 Months Now Still Waiting Since I Have Done BA, However With That Being Said I Found Out What The Cause Was & It Was CFS, But I Won't Say Who It Was.
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Well I Am Coming Up To 5 Or 6 Months Now Still Waiting Since I Have Done BA, However With That Being Said I Found Out What The Cause Was & It Was CFS, But I Won't Say Who It Was.
Get Prizi to stir them up :-D
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A member from my brigade went and done Ba the other weekend and he was told there was no time frame for when he would get his PBI gold as they had to get all the MFS fitted out first.
Why is it only one person can for you in PBI gold its not tht hard to messure you up if thats what they call it.
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Its a pain cause its hard to find ANY gear in my size, let alone get something temporary for the time until my PBI gold comes in. Unfortunately what comes off the trauma teddies isn't actually Nomex, or I could almost borrow that!
One of our other guys did BA 9 months ago, rumour had it that Lion didn't have his sizing. Apparently they do, there's just a massive demand for the gear!
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I Heard There Was A Delay Because The Purchase Orders Sat On Someones Desk & Was Not Signed Off.
So Instead Of Lion Getting An Order Of 12-24 Operators After 1-2 Courses There Got About 12 Courses So Approx 144 So Thats A Container Load. So The Last I Heard Was That The Stuff Has Been Ordered & Is Being Shipped From NZ.
Was Expected To Be Here This Month, But Now That Its Fire Season And Near Xmas So As To Weather It Gets Off The Docks Thats Another Story. It Will Most Likely Sit There Until Feb.
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Can't comment on the status or manufacturing location of specific orders but I do know that Lion are manufacturing South Aussie PBI Gold in Australia.
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Noticed MFS have the same striping as us in the latest batch they were given :wink:
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You mean the same colour striping?
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some of my guys are waiting for their PBI, after completing their BA course several weeks ago
The official word I received through my Group, from the Region, was that the hold up was due to a supply problem with the material....and that the material was in a shipping container, and had recently landed at the docks......
They were hoping to have the gear out by Christmas....not sure if this is going to happen or not (I haven't had an update yet...!)
Pip
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Come on its the CFS/Government when do you get anything at the time you are told you will?
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Lion are a private company :-D
Pip
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That makes it a private company taking the government for a ride. if there was another company that made PBI I bet lion would have filled all the orders by now.
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I believe Sturt group has some PBI sitting around, they can sell that :-P
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^^LMAO
might as well... its not really any use to the FFs in that group out on the job.
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You mean the same colour striping?
Yes that is what I meant :-D
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How come they have same coloured striping as us, unless its just replacement sets while theyre orange gear gets cleaned.
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Maybe they didn't like being the pink ones :P
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Maybe they didn't like being the pink ones :P
hmm thats understandable
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:-D :-D :-D :lol:
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i believe that MFS were issued with two sets of PBI so they shouldn't have replacement sets? Maybe they want something cfs has got for once. :-D :-D :-D
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I doubt it.
Probably a surplus of the yellow striped gear.
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Only some MFS firies have 2 sets of PBI at the moment. A second set issue is being rolled out gradually.
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There is a group with only 5 brigades in it,with 70 sets of it they have'nt issued to members yet :-o
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They say the paid staff are there to help the vollies.
SO WHY ARENT THEY HELPING THEM???
Surely they would know about the situation by now.
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they must be too confused as to who to help....
the Vollie GOs dotn wantit, the vollie FFs want it but cant get past the GOs....
and noone will go outside the group for fear of stirring up too much shiite and making a name for themself.....
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I can't believe this situation has been allowed to occur. Seems culpable to me.
Would the coroner or Work Safe SA prosecute a GO if someone was injured or worse, from a lack of protection when it should have been supplied????
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and noone will go outside the group for fear of stirring up too much shiite and making a name for themself.....
I dont want to stir scheiße here but seriously grow up...its your safety! Take it to the minister if you have to.
How would you feel if one of your fellow firies was killed or burned because of the lack of PPE. I realise we used to use nomex but there was a change for a reason.
Sorry to step on some toes but you cant sit on your donkey any longer! If someone has taken it higher then good on em and why the hell arent those higher people doing something to fix it!
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:wink:
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If your GO wont action it, you have evry right to go over their heads to Region. They are obliged to action it. Easiest way - fill in a hazard identification form - they will then have to deal with it.
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Come on Medevac, you like to talk the talk
Bring it up with your brigade reps, get the ball rolling.
Everyone has a voice at meetings. I can't work out why you have not got the gear yet.
Or do your officers ignore you
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Come on Medevac, you like to talk the talk
Bring it up with your brigade reps, get the ball rolling.
Everyone has a voice at meetings. I can't work out why you have not got the gear yet.
Or do your officers ignore you
there may be a reason they ignore him (going by his posts to this forum!). A group is not run by the GO but by the group management committee, made up of all group officers and captains (even in Sturt group). I'm sure they have their reasons (I don't know what they are but then again I'm not in that group).
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Yeah well it was the state government that allocated the money for this stuff to be purchased so it is not up to a snotty nosed group officer to hold back on it. He didnt filtered buy it. The vollies deserve the clothing.
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Medevac from reading your posts for some time I think you know more about the reasons behind this and just choosing to ignore them.
The Sturt Group has carried out a risk assessment on the Nomex uniform for using it as intended. However no risk assessment has been carried out on the PBI gold gear by anyone for use at anything. This may be one of the reasons Sturt Group hasn't issued it. A risk assessment is meant to be done on just about everything these days but hasn't been done on the PBI uniform. Perhaps if you turn you attention more to the fact the state/region hasn't issued the Sturt group with the requested safety and operational documentation you may get somewhere.
The Sturt Group isn't afraid to lead. I think you will find when the Sturt Group (then Mitcham Hills) went for two piece uniforms it wasn't towing the CFSHQ line who were all for cotton overalls. Sturt Group didn't tow the line on appliance design producing some appliances that are arguably better then their CFS issued replacements 20 years later. It didn't tow the line on rescue gear bypassing CFSHQ to give Blackwood the gear they needed.
OK you don't look as hip and cool as a Mt Lofty fire fighter passed out from heat stress while wearing PBI at a strike team, but there is logic and principle behind this.
While I suspect you know all this already if you don't you should talk to your Captain or Lieutenant that attend the monthly group meetings as I suspect this gets brought up every single time.
*edit to remove reference to BWD*
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Good post
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Well you dont wear PBI at strike teams do you?? You shouldnt be. The CFS has made the decision to buy the PBI and they take the responsibility for it. As for the appliances, what did Belair get as a new truck?? A 34P. times do change.
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very in formative post hicksflat14
But any one who wears PBI for any longer than needed is stupid and wearing it to a bushfire is stupid.
If Sturt group leads the way what is leading buy using Nomex at structure fires? Ok they might have come out with two piece and some good appliances.
Why has MFS gone to PBI and most FF I have spoken to much prefer PBI for structure work.
Lastly if this group is holding back PBI couldn't it be given to groups who have allowed it's use?
Might i suggest shifting this to members only
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fire03rescue -
i have been trying to get the ball rolling for the past 12 months at least. you would not believe the number of times this has been brought up with brigade reps for the group meetings, but alas they do not really care, neither does the brigade OH/S rep.
hicks flat 14 -
firstly, nice to see a sturt group officer/brigade officer having there input (also i didnt think duplicate accounts were allowed?)...
so tell us, what is the real reason sturt group dont want to issue PBI? forget the stories about risk assesments and SOPs, you know for a fact that it offers a higher level of protection for the firies at structure jobs (which is its sole purpose in CFS). All the group is doing is putting firies at more risk than necessary.
also i am interested... why would a mt lofty firie be wearing his PBI to a strike team? perhaps you need to actually work out what CFS is using this PPE for.
not to worry though hicksflat - im actually in the process of a formal letter to region re the PBI , so it will all probly go a bit faster from here on. we can only hope :wink: or perhaps the use of the local messenger would be good? sturt group seem to have used that to effectively stir up scheiße in the past?
another point, the last appliance that sturt group custom built seems to have been a fizzer in my eyes and plagued with issues however minor they may have been, the last time i saw the CAFS appliance at a grassfire it took the crew an extraordinary amount of time to begin attacking the fire and there progress was very slow, because they couldnt get there proportions right. but yes it is a great mop up appliance, perhaps it can be kept for that purpose. i do however believe the old Belair pumper and Eden pumper (shame to hear that thing is rusting away) and Coro 24P are probly amongst the finest builds in the CFS fleet....
anyway i dont want to turn this into a sturt group 'bagging' excercise.
ath - that comment was great mate.. made me laugh.
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Hmm, as an outsider, would the reluctance to allow PBI Gold into Sturt Group have anything to do with the business interests of one of their deputies?
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10:12:48 30-01-07 FROM STURT DEPUTY 2 PBI GOLD HAS BEEN DELIVERED TO YOUR STATION THIS MORNING FOR DISTRIBUTION - LAUNDRY BAGS AND LABELS HAVE BEEN SUPPLIED - SOME NAME TAGS ARE MISSING
This message didn't go to a Brigade - who's playing funny buggers? :evil:
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was at the station and there are lots of white bags from Lion with names on them...
something must be actually happening. might hang onto that letter for a little while.....
PROGRESS!!!!!
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Wow, my pager capcode list said it went to Group officers response (single address). Will have to check that one. looks like it is all starting to happen! :wink:
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My pdw came up with a hit to Sturt Group Officers response code also. Gee maybe all our comments on SAFF had some clout?
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Well this issue is now dead. The structural gloves the group was waiting on came in and now the structural uniform (with gloves and hood) is going out. (Even I believe without state supplying a risk assessment on the gear). But before you all soil your PBI pants here is a reply to some questions/comments. (damn browser wouldn't let me post last night)
Hmm, as an outsider, would the reluctance to allow PBI Gold into Sturt Group have anything to do with the business interests of one of their deputies?
That is such a stupid question. Not rolling out PBI has not lead to the purchase of any extra nomex and never will. Even if PBI was issued, Nomex will still be required for all members for everything other then internal structural so the issue and replacement is exactly the same.
Also I think you will find that business interest is a supplier of PBI gold as well. I could be wrong here (perhaps fire03rescue can clear this up) but I don't think nomex production is a going concern of the business interest as it has been spun off.
But any speculation that the Sturt group management is making a decision base on such a consideration is offencive. (not to mention stupid as there is no logic behind it)
Medevac:
firstly, nice to see a sturt group officer/brigade officer having there input (also i didn't think duplicate accounts were allowed?)...
wrong I just listen to the feedback that comes from group and read the minutes. You may like to try getting some info from sources other then SAFF some time. In reference to your question about duplicate accounts, people in the past have asked if I was you. So if I'm not you then this isn't a duplicate.
you know for a fact that it offers a higher level of protection for the firies at structure jobs (which is its sole purpose in CFS)
do I?
Higher level of protection against what?
A wall falling on you - no
Getting disorientated and running out of air - no
Getting heat stroke and flailing - no,indeed worse falling through a floor - no
falling off a ladder or roof - no
the only thing it may provide you better protection against is externally generated heat and last I looked on the appliance we had hose lines for that kind of thing.
Also you could run the line that why is CFSHQ issuing proban grass fire uniforms when you would know for a fact nomex offers a "higher level of protection" to use your words. (I actually think CFSHQ may have back flipped on this and may go for nomex for grass fire uniforms as it wears better and therefor has lower life costs)
All the group is doing is putting firies at more risk than necessary.
No the line is the same as it has ever been if you don't feel you have the equipment or training to do a task safely then don't do it. You can be injured and die in nomex you can be injured and die in PBI. There is a wide spectrum of risks many of them larger then externally generated heat.
There is a massive technical argument here over vent and enter vs compartment tactics. Ill leave that for now other then say that personally I believe that vent then enter is the safest option for firefighters. I know you compartment blokes will do your nar nar but just think what do you do in the compartment if someone his/her DSU. The big red button gets hit and the place is vented.
also i am interested... why would a mt lofty firie be wearing his PBI to a strike team?
Who said it was a male? In this case both genders were involved.
Anyway you ask them. (and this was a strike team they sent to Mt Gambier) but you see them at other grass fires wearing it as was photographed by the Advertiser a few months back. Not that Lofty fire fighters are the only ones.
not to worry though hicksflat - I'm actually in the process of a formal letter to region re the PBI
I hope you were going to asking them to provide the Sturt group with the simple documentation the group has been asking for, for the last 6 months or so.
the last appliance that sturt group custom built seems to have been a fizzer
Well I don't think the Sturt group had the same control on this project as it had on past builds. But my opinion parallels yours on this topic.
i do however believe the old Belair pumper and Eden pumper (shame to hear that thing is rusting away) and Coro 24P are probly amongst the finest builds in the CFS fleet....
Indeed they are but so are Blackwood rescue, Belair tanker and eden24 on which coro24P is based. They are all very fit appliances so even if you factor in one appliance that may or may not have lived up to expectations its still a good hit miss ratio. Good appliances are very complex platforms and it is very hard to get them right.
bittenyakka:
If Sturt group leads the way what is leading buy using Nomex at structure fires?
Well that was just a general comment that the Sturt group changes where the need is identified. Secondly you seem to make out that the uniform is the be all and end all of structural fire fighting. It simply is not; well not for people who actually fight structure fires and not just sit in the bottom of hot shipping containers.
At the end of the day things are as they ever have been. If you don't feel its safe to do something with the equipment and training you have then don't do it. Even with PBI gold you cant go into everything and cant save everyone. It doesn't make you invincible.
cloaks of invincibility are for D&D playing nerds with 8 sided dice.
Why has MFS gone to PBI and most FF I have spoken to much prefer PBI for structure work.
That is a fanboy comment. You say most which suggest not all, which shows the diversity in the topic. I think you will find that the Sturt group offices talk to far far more MFS firefighters then yourself. So they know the issues involved with this gear both for and against. Secondly pointing at another service and saying "they have it" isn't a full justification.
There are services that would prefer to wear something other then PBI for structural. And indeed there are better uniforms for specific purposes.
The issue is getting a uniform that matches the risks, tactics and budget of the service.
That aside I believe the Sturt group has said as soon as state/region answers some questions about its use and maintenance it would distribute the gear to fire fighters. If it is such a great uniform then there should be no problem for region/state providing the documentation that the Sturt group requested both the risk assessment (that needs to be filled out with every bit of new equipment or modification) or the operational procedure/ guide lines right? Well if its so easy and so necessary (as CFSHQ makes it out to be) their sure taking their time.
Ath:
Well you dont wear PBI at strike teams do you?? You shouldnt be. The CFS has made the decision to buy the PBI and they take the responsibility for it. As for the appliances, what did Belair get as a new truck?? A 34P. times do change.
Well I don't wear PBI gold on strike teams. But some others aren't as selective wearing it to everything and anything including grass fires and strike teams (you don't need to look to hard to see it happening). No one is questioning why group officers don't enforce CFSHQ policy on not wearing it to grass fires.
The fact is this whole PBI topic is a fan boy issue. "I want it as the people who get paid and I urn to be wear it"
I think some would question that it was a CFS decision to buy PBI gold. I think it was as much a CFS decision to buy PBI gold as it was to buy the GRN. These decisions get made by people who don't fight fires. Which is what some people in particular medevac overlook. the decision to not hand it out is made by people who fight fires. No one could dispute that those on the Sturt group management committee are highly respected and proficient firefighters and have only got there after decades of dedication. They were elected to there positions by the members of the group. Where as the person that made the decision to buy PBI gold has who knows what experience if any and was elected by no one.
Times do change but not necessarily or the better.
Gee maybe all our comments on SAFF had some clout?
Take your hand off your nozzle.
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wow you have a lot to say for somone that has been on this forum for about 5 minutes. Anyone else you want to have a crack at?
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Hicksflat great comments and you have cleared a lot of crap up, I am not sure who can and can't sell PBI gold.
But I think you will find that the business you are talking about might ( not 100%) would had an intrest in the gloves and hoods, like other business.
So I am not sure why the conflict of intrest keeps coming up.
I think you will find the the GROUP votes on issues not one person.
I have worked with these people before and I have confidence it what they do and do for their group.
At the end of the day if issues are some much of a concern talk to your captain or speak to the group officers for some answers and you might get the same kind of respons the one on this forum.
It might have stopped all this??
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Well thank you you answered all my questions.
would it be possible to share some of the sturt groups reservations?
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Mr 14 you need to take some of the comments on this group with a grain of salt.
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10:12:48 30-01-07 FROM STURT DEPUTY 2 PBI GOLD HAS BEEN DELIVERED TO YOUR STATION THIS MORNING FOR DISTRIBUTION - LAUNDRY BAGS AND LABELS HAVE BEEN SUPPLIED - SOME NAME TAGS ARE MISSING
This message didn't go to a Brigade - who's playing funny buggers? :evil:
1909056 10:42:03 30-01-07 PBI GOLD AT STATION. WILL BE ISSUED FRI PLS DO NOT TAKE BEFOREHAND FROM EDEN EQUIPMENT
Well the word has got out
AT LAST
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hicksflat - that is a very interesting post
you still have explained very little behind the actual reasoning of the group and why they were so reluctant to issue it, other than paperwork. and judging by your post they have supposedly recieved there gloves and are now issuing it without the said paperwork anyway? so i guess the delay was pointless then, as the gloves only took a week after they got off there asses and sized firies up for them...
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you know for a fact that it offers a higher level of protection for the firies at structure jobs (which is its sole purpose in CFS)
do I?
the protection offered by PBI over nomex is superior in its ability to protect from radiant heat and also the firies gettin steamed... the gear also has a number of little nice bits n pieces that help to cover your filtered, including a collar that doesnt flip flop around and is actually high enough to cover your whole neck and thumb hooks to actually help protect your wrists properly!!! but you should know this as i get the impression that your a paid firie (or at least wish you were) and possibly wear it regularly.
short of walking around in some kind of futuristic bubble i am not sure what would protect you from a falling wall, or falling through the floor or off a ladder... so perhaps stop coming up with rubbish to try to make yourself sound intelligent as it just gives the opposite effect.
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All the group is doing is putting firies at more risk than necessary.
No the line is the same as it has ever been if you don't feel you have the equipment or training to do a task safely then don't do it. You can be injured and die in nomex you can be injured and die in PBI. There is a wide spectrum of risks many of them larger then externally generated heat.
firies are at more risk than necessary in nomex than PBI at structure fires. this point is obvious. whether you are inside a structure or just doign a surround and drown the gear offers a higher level of protection from the radiant heat, and also covers all parts of your body properly.
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also i am interested... why would a mt lofty firie be wearing his PBI to a strike team?
Who said it was a male? In this case both genders were involved.
Anyway you ask them. (and this was a strike team they sent to Mt Gambier) but you see them at other grass fires wearing it as was photographed by the Advertiser a few months back. Not that Lofty fire fighters are the only ones.
Have to admit i dont particularly care what the lofty group are doing and fail to see how much the efforts of the so called "MFS-wannabes" and posers really matters, as i have no interest in wearing it to any call other than structure related which is why it has been supplied.
Also I think you will find that business interest is a supplier of PBI gold as well
the business i believe you are referring to has nothing to do with PBI, nor did it get the CFS tender for flashhoods (i believe).... perhaps they are supplying the gloves to the group, i dont know.
Not rolling out PBI has not lead to the purchase of any extra nomex and never will
so the large stockpile of nomex came from where??? sure wasnt bought to go straight on any hooks at stations... id say it definitely lead to more nomex being bought :wink:
Also you could run the line that why is CFSHQ issuing proban grass fire uniforms when you would know for a fact nomex offers a "higher level of protection" to use your words. (I actually think CFSHQ may have back flipped on this and may go for nomex for grass fire uniforms as it wears better and therefor has lower life costs)
the nomex treatment may be superior to the Proban treatment, however the nomex gear in use currently by CFS does not conform to australian standards, whereas the proban does.
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not to worry though hicksflat - I'm actually in the process of a formal letter to region re the PBI
I hope you were going to asking them to provide the Sturt group with the simple documentation the group has been asking for, for the last 6 months or so.
actually it was gonna be more along the lines of why has my personal issue gear been sitting in the sturt store rooms for the past 4 or so months, please explain. the gear doesnt belong to the group in any way so why have they been holding onto it, the group store is just a central delivery point for LION apparel.
Well this issue is now dead
I fail to see how the issue is now dead...
@ ATH
The fact is this whole PBI topic is a fan boy issue. "I want it as the people who get paid and I urn to be wear it"
actualyl mate ATH does get paid to wear it.... but you know that cos your a long time reader first time poster? (or poser???)
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Anyone hear a whip crack :-o :lol:
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my brigade only has Proban and PBI and you only get nomex if you are waiting for BA
Are you guys saying that we should be issued with nomex for things like MVA even if we are not BA?
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no
hicksflat and myself are refering to nomex, becasue the whole of sturt group BA or not, wear it for everything at the moment.
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last volunteer had a table showing PBI to be used for everything except rural.
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thanks That's what I thought PBI for everything but rural.
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last volunteer had a table showing PBI to be used for everything except rural.
that wasnt an SOP or anything though.... just a guide of what it is approved for.
it would be downright stupid to wear it to a prang on a 40degree day (or even a 22degree day ;) )
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The table in the volunteer is what standards PBI is approved for - it doesn't mean you can wear it to everything. Check with your Region as it seems each region has a different view on the wearing of PBI gold :roll:
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OK there are a fair number of follow ups to my follow up. So here goes in no specific order replies to those that justify a reply.
would it be possible to share some of the sturt groups reservations
Well I'm sure that each person in the Sturt group management committee had their own specific take on it. But the consensus of the elected committee was to hold off on it. So really the explanation doesn't need to go much further than that. Should members of that group have any questions about why or which way their elected captain voted on the topic should be directed to that captain who would know the full story.
There would have been multiple lengthy discussions covering many many points so really I'm only speculating here on why they took the point of view they did from what I hear.
Firstly there may have been consideration that there has been NO suggestion that the current uniform used by the Sturt group (nomex) has not performed adequately in training and operation. To my knowledge within the Sturt group there has been no injuries or near misses (or even suggestion there of) have been made that the current nomex was inadequate in anyway at anytime. So the urgency of getting it out there may have been tagged reasonably low and it was better to have the full story on the use, operation and management of the uniform BEFORE rolling it out. As seen in the latest posts on SAFF you lot after having the uniform for 6 months or so are still arguing over what you should or should not wear it too.
Indeed mengcfs suggested "Check with your Region as it seems each region has a different view on the wearing of PBI gold" to which the Sturt group did in writing and did not get a reply. The more cynical in the Sturt group management may have considered the issuing of the uniform more politically then operationally based. We all remember Mike Rann in front of two koalas (the choppers) with two fire fighters (one male, one female) announcing this to the public just before the election right (before there had even been and announcement or significant discussion inside the CFS). I believe there is still question of this uniform got a critical assessment and the thumbs up by any of the state technical committees.
Secondly without a flash hood and structural gloves the PBI provides minimal extra protection. I believe the Sturt group lobbied very hard on both of these points. Indeed all the external heat issues logged with the nomex uniform (mainly from the compartment course) would not have been mitigated by the material or cut of the PBI. Indeed these issues continued after PBI was introduced (to the compartment course). So the thinking of the Sturt group may have been that without the complete package (PBI, gloves, hood) you are getting minimal extra protection against external heat. One hold up may have been getting approval, sizing, tender and supply of this additional PPE to obtain the protection PBI claims to have against external heat sources.
Medevac buying riggers gloves for personal use in the garden from banner backwood may take a week or so to do. But to obtain the correct glove for structural fire fighting takes time. You need to get a number of gloves from different suppliers. Then these demo models need to go to the brigades for comment. Lets say one week at each station there is 5 weeks there. Then you need to collate the feedback and have consensus from the management committee on the best glove considering cost. Then you need to get sizing pairs and size everyone up. Lets say another week at each station. Then you may need to put out a tender for the supply of the selected glove. Then the gloves may need to be shipped in then there is Christmas. Then people may have other things to do like combat large fires. To say it only takes a week is just foolish. If it did only take a week you would probably be on here complaining about how the Sturt group didn't give brigades a say and how they selected the wrong glove and it cost too much. (Which you will probably do anyway)
Thirdly groups have had it drummed in to them the purchase or modification of equipment has to have an adequate risk assessment, completed, accepted and filed. The group may have believe it was following policy by awaiting this paper work on what is front line life critical PPE. Seems odd that the state would buy $4M of the stuff without doing the mandatory paper work groups need to do for something much less or life critical doesn't it? (Like if someone in the heat on an election just announced it for spin). Some of you will continue to run the line "(whine) but state said it was good". Safety is everyones responsibility.
Fourthly the group may have been considering racking and storage options in the station for the proper stowage. Some issues may have been identified with the strength of the current hanging hooks and how to have easy access to two sets of uniforms without having trip hazards such as crew bags all over the place.
Fifthly, some may have considered a uniform just that. Not one person has this and another person has that. Nomex is currently used across the board in the Sturt group. This simplifies equipment management and a conformity among members. (I know your all going to have a shot at this and I agree this would not be a particularly strong argument)
Sixthly, the group may have been waiting on further info from state on how cleaning, repair, annual inspection and replacement would be funded. Why would a group accept an extra cost with no extra funding particularly in light of the first point that the PPE currently in service was adequate.
Seventh the group may have been after more info generally from state on maintenance and management (other then the washing instructions on the
label) of the uniform and SOP on its use.
So generally the Sturt group may have felt state was excessively hasty giving out equipment (if they even had a choice) without addressing the issues that are involved in what is a very important bit of equipment. But thats all speculation based on what I hear back from Sturt management meetings. I also hear that other than flash hoods and gloves (gloves decided on by the group and purchased from the groups funds) state has not addressed any of the above. So now that the gear has been given out I would assume that the captains voted to distribute the gear anyway. Why that was I don't know. So personally there is better justification on not handing it out then why they eventually chose to do so. But I can tell you one thing it would have had nothing to do with posts on SAFF.
This holds off parallels that of other CFSHQ roll outs that the Sturt group has held off on until it was done properly or things further clarified. So don't think the PBI was the first or last instance of this. I think the word for it is prudent.
I hope that give some insight (rightly or wrongly) of only some of the issues that may have been involved for those people who asked "why".
Now on to you medevac.
I was going to grab your quote about buying the group line and how the group officers are proud of me but you edited it out before I grabbed it.
On the first point maybe I used some critical assessment of my own. Not just jumping on the PBI gold fanboy group think line that bought Mike Ranns election spin line (I hope you ended up voting for him). Can you cry "But I want it now" any more like a child?
I don't recall saying that I agreed or disagreed with the groups line on this (but you probably read between the lines correctly). I do support a groups right to make such a decision. I think without groups and people at the coal face making decisions, the CFS, its members and the community would be much worse off.
On the second point I can only hope that my colleagues at any point on the chain of command are proud of me (well probably not for posting on a forum). I would have thought it was something everyone would aspire to (having people be proud of them not the posting on a forum part). I would like to think my commitment was respected by those within the CFS and the hundreds of people I assist every year who don't even know me. Like anyone I make mistakes but over all I'm proud of the work I do and hope to be able to do it for as long as I can. I believe the Sturt group should be proud of its progressive approach on may fronts. So their is a lot to be proud of.
the protection offered by PBI over nomex is superior in its ability to protect from radiant heat and also the firies gettin steamed...
You know because you read it on the box right? And that it may well be but as pointed out there are many risks other then radiant heat. Ive had no problem with the neck line on the nomex that would be solved with the PBI cut. But hoods may solve what issue there is; be it with the PBI or the nomex.
but you should know this as i get the impression that your a paid firie (or at least wish you were) and possibly wear it regularly.
I don't know if thats a complement or not. Either way you know the Sturt group catch phase. (If I remember correctly from back in the day) "Professionalism is a state of mind not a rate of pay" or something like that.
short of walking around in some kind of futuristic bubble i am not sure what would protect you from...
Indeed look at the risks (and the injury stats) and look at the extra protection the PBI provides. For the extra cost and extra risk of internally generated heat injuries I don't think it stacks up. But thats a point of contention.
firies are at more risk than necessary in nomex than PBI at structure
fires
Once again because you read it on the box right? or was is Mr Rann's press release? Look at the stats more fire fighters are treated for and put at risk by internally generated heat/heatstroke. Something that the pbi gold gear is notorious for increasing not decreasing. I think you even admit it.
it would be downright stupid to wear it to a prang on a 40degree day (or even a 22degree day Wink )
Oh yes there you go admitting that internally generated heat is worse in PBI then the nomex and I know that more people are treated for heat stroke from internal heat then that of burns from external heat. So why would anyone make a major problem worse? So I refute you risk claim, based on that you are looking at only the flame risk not all the risks.
so the large stockpile of nomex came from where??? sure wasn't bought to go straight on any hooks at stations... id say it definitely lead to more nomex being bought
What do you call a stockpile? There is a surprisingly high turn over of the stuff involved when your talking about looking after some 120 fire fighters, plus the need to have different sizes in stock. etc. So any group probably has a fair bit in storage as involved with running any group equipment store.
The purchase to which you may be referring had nothing to do with the PBI issue. Remember you will still have nomex when you get PBI and you will/should be wearing the nomex to 80% of calls. PBI IS NOT A REPLACEMENT TO NOMEX it is a supplement. So if you'd say it definitely led to the purchase Id say your definitely wrong and need to improve your logical assessment and critical thought process. If that purchase didn't take place you would most likely be going back to wearing proban and kicking up a stink about it on SAFF.
the nomex treatment may be superior to the Proban treatment
good thing the Sturt group has and issues nomex then isn't it?
however the nomex gear in use currently by CFS does not conform to australian standards
Neither does your house, your car or just about anything you own.
Standards change every couple of years and some times yearly. Just because its not to the current standard doesn't mean it needs to be chucked. More generally just because something improves doesn't make the previous thing is defective. Also note there is a difference between meeting the current standard, tested to the current standard and certified to the current standard. My understanding is that the current Nomex is only not to the standard as it doesn't have the two tone reflective striping and the manufacturer wasn't ISO9000 certified at the time. Anything other than that is all to do with certification paperwork and test requirements. But as mentioned in the previous post CFSHQ is likely to head the nomex direction. Its just a matter of certification taking place (which may have happened by now).
why has my personal issue gear been sitting in the sturt store rooms
Its not your personal gear its the property of the state. It was measured up for you, but its not yours and its not to be used as you see fit. Like any CFS equipment it is to be used when appropriate, in accordance with State, Group and Brigade guidelines. The why question is answered above.
I fail to see how the issue is now dead...
I don't know what you are getting at here. If this means, how this issue was dealt with is going to determine your vote at the next brigade election then you have the right to do so.
actualyl mate ATH does get paid to wear it.... but you know that cos your a long time reader first time poster?
Yes I know that ath is retained MFS at Mt Gambier. I don't know if he is still a CFS member at compton? If he is, does he have 3 sets of PBI?
As to a couple of questions from other people
Anyone hear a whip crack
I cant tell over the sound of medevac's banjo emanating from the valley.
Are you guys saying that we should be issued with nomex for things like MVA even if we are not BA?
Yes. Better protection, more comfortable and (from what ive been
hearing) cheaper in the long term as it wares better (at least in frequent responder brigades)
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Quick Run Medevac
CORO INFO - PBI GOLD IS IN THE STATION PLEASE DO NOT TAKE UNTIL ISSUED AND SIGNED FOR, THOSE WHO HAVE RECENTLY COMPLETED BA NEED TO BE RESIZED AND SENT TO R1 FOR ORDERING- CORO LT1 :lol:
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very interesting post there hicksflat, with some very interesting points... i still believe the group has gone along the wrong lines, although you are obviously happy with the way PBI has been handled. you obviously know who i am and dislike me, but i have no idea who you are.... i will however be looking to find the most offensive person in the group and im sure it will be you :wink:
fire03rescue - that is extremely mature, im sure you will be the first in line at blackwood when they give it out friday. i however have no idea when i will actually be able to get a chance to organise mine.
anyway, this will be my last post re; PBI. although im keen to read everyone elses posts.
Medevac
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Ohh Medevac, I allready have my PBI Gold and I have used it.
You are so close but so far.
Next time I see you at a fire I will say hello to you !!
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When you look at it, sturt group don't go to that many going structure fires maybe thats why there was a lack of near misses related to heat and burns at structure fires. Our group attends alot and have had several near misses due to the nomex and lack of flash hoods, 3 that come to mind are someone burnt their knee entering a house fire when the carpet melted to their leg, even though there was no fire in that room. A firefighter burnt their neck from embers falling down the collar and someone burnt their cheek from radiant heat. All would have been avoided with the current gear.
Therefor our group have been pushing for better structural turnout gear and all firefighters have structure gloves and flash hoods.
We also have recently had someone get slight burns to the lower leg even though they had PBI on due to CFS not having structure boots and the heat from the ground radiating up the pants.
Not that i am saying PBI was the best answer but thats not my choice, atleast it's safer for offensive structure fire fighting.
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I have to agree that I believe PBI to be a superior element of PPE compared to L3 Nomex. - (When referring to offensive / defensive structural firefighting).. When it comes to undertaking Road Crash Rescue, the last thing I would want to be wearing is a full kit of PBI..
I almost find myself scratching at the walls when I hear of people wearing it on rural strike teams and the like.. Obviously some un-educated decisions were made that day! .. (But if once at the scene, they were tasked to undertake asset protection or structural firefighting, that would be a perfect time to have the gear).. But how many sets of gear will crews end up having to take? (Thats another topic on its own)..
I know everyone will have their own preferences.. My *personal* opinion, and going on my *personal* experience, I would choose PBI (with structural gloves, boots and flashood), over Nomex with L3 liner..(including S/gloves, hood and boots also). But that is just my personal opinion and everyone is entitled to their own..
I must admit, seeing crews at a job with a mix match of turnout gear looks less professional, but we have to have a happy medium.. & if the crews undertaking certain duties are wearing PPE which will better protect them, then i'm not too fussed how they look, as long as they are properly protected.
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I'm Just Happy I Final Got Mine After A Year. Came With The Flash Hood, However The Name Tag Was MIA.
From What I Heard A Bunch Of Guys Who Got There Gear In The Last Batch Also Missed Out On There Name Tags. Anyone Know What's Going On.
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My brigade has just recently recieved a batch of name tags for there PBI gear.
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I feel sorry for you guys that have to push issues like PBI gold with your dinosaur Captains and LT's that just worry about scrub fires. If you got B.A. operators no questions should be asked, they need it. The majority of jobs my brigade attends are structure fires and M.V.A.'s. The old level three pants just dont cut it at some hot jobs.
As for the wearing of PBI gold we wear it to any job's that the appliance we have goes for urban jobs. I know its probably not the best thing for R.C.R but we have had it before when we are cleaning up at a prang and get responded to a structure fire. MFS wear it for both types of jobs no problems. In Summer if we go to one of these job's i just put my level 1 gear in a bag in a locker just in case. We are not allowed to wear it to rural jobs i saw one guy from a neighbouring brigade and thought what a tool!
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Well i did BA at the start of May. Place you put bets on how long it will take to get to me. the instructors thought 6 weeks yet i'm not holding my breath.
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I'm betting not before the start of the near financial year - at least....
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Have 1 in our brigade that has been waiting nearly 7 months.
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Have 1 in our brigade that has been waiting nearly 7 months.
Chase it up, thats B/S !
- Bitten, have you been sized up? .. 6 weeks would sound about fair if you have been sized up..
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Have 1 in our brigade that has been waiting nearly 7 months.
Chase it up, thats B/S !
Have done: Answer is it's coming...
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Have 1 in our brigade that has been waiting nearly 7 months.
Chase it up, thats B/S !
Have done: Answer is it's coming...
Thats what we are kept being told!!!!
One of our members was sized up initally when orders were taken,when pbi was first introduced & he is still waiting for his set.
Every time we inquire about it the answer is the same!
IT'S COMING!!!!!
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- Bitten, have you been sized up? .. 6 weeks would sound about fair if you have been sized up..
Got sized up on the course
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Wish they would make up their mind as to what to wear it to and what not to wear it to,it's strange how each region is differant in telling its Volunteers what jobs you can wear it too...tell me how many people would where PBI gold to a MVA on a hot 35 day or better still coming back from a fixed alarm are paged onto a scrub fire and your in PBI gold. If they want us to wear it then there needs to be uniformed rules on what jobs to wear it to across the state and not regions making up there own rules.
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if you are paged to a grass fire go to it if you can quickly put it out do so or go home and change if it is a strike team job.
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Why not provide work-shirts that can be used at MVA's and grass fires with PBI pants? :evil:
On the other hand, who doesn't want to wear PBI Gold doing traffic control at an MVA on a 2 degree day in the pouring rain? :wink:
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Well at a mva the other night one of our members was complaining about the heat of structure helmets and all we were doing was sweeping up spillage.
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Well at a mva the other night one of our members was complaining about the heat of structure helmets and all we were doing was sweeping up spillage.
Tell him to harden the (insert word here) up. :wink:
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Now I've heard it all my helmet is to heavy!
Tell him/her to ask to be put in the radio room or making sandwhiches! :evil:
All this PBI gold stuff is easy i wear mine to structures and MVA's as our RCR gear is on our urban appliance and we have been called to a structure a few times straight after an MVA. Carry my Level 3 nomex with me in a bag just in case during summer and vice versa if going to a rural job. Bit of a pain but hey I'm covered what ever we are going to.
We asked about the level one work shirts a while ago and it fell on deaf ears! Just in case we did get caught out on our urban applaince and had to help out our rural appliances or neighbouring brigades. I'm guessing the cost of more gear?
See how you go with your group CFS_Firey
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Have 1 in our brigade that has been waiting nearly 7 months.
Chase it up, thats B/S !
Made a slight mistake not 7 months, more like 11 now.
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Now I've heard it all my helmet is to heavy!
Tell him/her to ask to be put in the radio room or making sandwhiches! :evil:
All this PBI gold stuff is easy i wear mine to structures and MVA's as our RCR gear is on our urban appliance and we have been called to a structure a few times straight after an MVA. Carry my Level 3 nomex with me in a bag just in case during summer and vice versa if going to a rural job. Bit of a pain but hey I'm covered what ever we are going to.
We asked about the level one work shirts a while ago and it fell on deaf ears! Just in case we did get caught out on our urban applaince and had to help out our rural appliances or neighbouring brigades. I'm guessing the cost of more gear?
See how you go with your group CFS_Firey
It would actually work out cheaper in the end, PBI and a shirt vs, another full set of turnouts, makes sense, oh hang about, forgot what service we were in for a sec..... :-D
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Would PBI and a shirt be for bushfires? I find the Proban is fine for that especially in blackberry ridden hills. :-)
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Would PBI and a shirt be for bushfires? I find the Proban is fine for that especially in blackberry ridden hills. :-)
PBI + Shirt is all SAMFS wear... It seems to work for them...
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I might be wrong but Do MFS go in to REAL goat country Where their trucks are not ment to go? :?
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I might be wrong but Do MFS go in to REAL goat country Where their trucks are not ment to go? :?
They would when they have 4WD appliances... The Pumpers aren't supposed to leave the road though...
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I was only suggesting the shirts if you got caught out returning from an urban job and had to respond to a rural. I think our current rural gear is fine its light and easy to work in.
MFS do have 4x4 appliances 14's (ROSA) Mitsubishi Canters
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Have 1 in our brigade that has been waiting nearly 7 months.
Chase it up, thats B/S !
Made a slight mistake not 7 months, more like 11 now.
Go to your briagde equip officer, if that doesn't get you an answer, go to Group, then to region.. - 11 months waiting for the gear is- ... Excuse the french.. Cr@p !
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11 months is nothing i know of three people that have been waiting for over 14 months now and ba opperators are pretty scarce at thier brigade
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Have they just sat their waiting, or have they been proactive and actually chased up why it has taken that long?
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Your not alone
There is still quite a few still waiting for there PBI.
Wayne
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SO does any one know whats happerning up to 5 months now?
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keep actively pursuing for its delivery through your brigade management committee and Group Equipment Officer.
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one of our members got there in 1 month another got his in 17 days while another is still waiting after 16 months not sure how they run. Have heard a lot that got it through the grant thing from the state have not received them as they have lost there orders????? not sure how true that statement is.
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Im doing BA course this weekend....place your bets in please :-D
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Any news anyone? still haven't heard anything
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Medium Regular is well in stock ;)
Its the larger sizes taking ages :|
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Where did you hear that?
The guys in my brigade who are waiting on medium / average size are still waiting!!
Pip
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ive sent you an email/PM pip, and for the rest of the audience...contacting your region HQ is pretty much the thing to do every now and then to remind them, i think.
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so are the people waiting ages short/fat, tall/skinny, tall/fat, etc???
reasons i heard were that the "odd" sizes werent as easy to supply....
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so are the people waiting ages short/fat, tall/skinny, tall/fat, etc???
reasons i heard were that the "odd" sizes werent as easy to supply....
Then I will be waiting a while I think, I completed my BA course this weekend just gone. I got sized up for Short-Extra Small, and I was not the only one on my course to have odd sizes, there were a couple of shorties, and a couple of tallies.
Any one want to take bets?
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i believe a lot of people who have been Sized very recently are having better chances reciving PBI sooner. So another way to making things go faster is getting Sized AGAIN, every 3 months :wink:.