SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Incident Operations => Topic started by: Hazmat206 on October 05, 2008, 10:33:56 PM
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does anyone know which 6 mfs appliances attended this evening's fatal house fire in mawsons lakes? i'm guessing salisbury were 2 of them and 332 attended later on...
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331, 332, 321, 329, 301, 303, 206, 2090, Car 31?
any of them and others maybe...who knows......
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1st alarm was 321 and 301 [with car 31 shortly after]
2nd alarm 206, 303, 361
3rd alarm 2090, 371 and 243
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3rd alarm and salisbury cfs not called!!!!! :? :? :?
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yeh???...its well within MFS area....
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OH MY GOD, Scandal!
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Not even the regional spare got to go!!!
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moooo..... now lets get back on topic
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The topic is about who got called - it's relevant to discuss who didn't. So long as it's not whining. A mature discussion is welcome.
On the topic of Salisbury CFS not getting a run...Did the chiefs not sign off on an agreement that said closest most appropriate resource?
At third alarm would it be reasonable that Salisbury CFS fits the bill. A truck from CFS is an appropriate structural resource and may have left a SAMFS station with a truck.
However it is difficult to reverse engineer decisions, the comms people may have made a strategic decision to leave Salisbury CFS out of this one to assist with covering other jobs....
Always two sides to a coin.....
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The topic is about who got called - it's relevant to discuss who didn't. So long as it's not whining. A mature discussion is welcome.
On the topic of Salisbury CFS not getting a run...Did the chiefs not sign off on an agreement that said closest most appropriate resource?
Have the chiefs actually signed off on the "closest & most appropriate?"
Last I heard of it, (about 6 weeks ago) it had still not been signed, and discussions were (still) continuing.... has it been signed since then?
Pip
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I was listening to theis job go down at home, and as the resources were being responded there stations were being backfilled...
Due to therenow being two appliances at Oakden, and the COQ that were happening to cover i would suggest the closest most appropriate response did occur.
Just because its a prospect appliance, does not mean it came from prospect station.
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The topic is about who got called - it's relevant to discuss who didn't. So long as it's not whining. A mature discussion is welcome.
On the topic of Salisbury CFS not getting a run...Did the chiefs not sign off on an agreement that said closest most appropriate resource?
Have the chiefs actually signed off on the "closest & most appropriate?"
Last I heard of it, (about 6 weeks ago) it had still not been signed, and discussions were (still) continuing.... has it been signed since then?
Pip
If im not correct, this relates to CFS and SES?? RE: storm damage and tree downs...
Hopefully it gets signed off, for the good of public.
E.g Treedown at Swamp Road, Uraidla....Closest (quickest responder): Carey gully, Appropriate/Backup (SES): Balhannah
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Good answers.....I'm not sure of the status of any agreement..... :-P
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guess no ones sure...its like federal politics, you only hear of the idea and of the result.
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Yes, zippy Tree downs are a major part of this new ruling but so will everything else.
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:-D :-D :-D some people read to much into comments bad!!
as i have said on other topics we were not in comms when the calls were bad hey i didnt even know about the fire until i read it on here!!
the job got done so all is good (just think about us next time as there will be a next time)
:mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Who cares. Stop with the goddamned "Think of us, we need some fun too" side of things. We are an emergency service not a frigging fun play center.
When will you people get it through you thick heads.
SAMFS already over resource EVERY job they go to, we don't need more of it.
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SAMFS already over resource EVERY job they go to, we don't need more of it.
Im curious.....?
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SAMFS already over resource EVERY job they go to, we don't need more of it.
Im curious.....?
3rd Alarm house fire? It must have been a HUGE house. SAMFS routinely send 2 appliances to Vehicle Fires, as well as half of Wakefield St. to Fire Alarms in multi storey buildings. Its one thing to treat all alarms as working jobs, its another things to turn out trucks merely for the sake of justifying their existence - or so it seems...
Lets not drag this thread off topic with this though. Its just my opinion that both SAMFS and SACFS (Mt. Lofty group are the worst for this, bar none) could look at what they respond and reduce it, with no noticeable impact on fireground performance.
Mind you, a lot of the CFS over response issues are due to multiple stations being responded, and then each station sending as many appliances as they can crew. This is unavoidable without strict brigade level discipline, or appliance specific paging.
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1. Mawson Lakes was a automatic second alarm because there was a person reported and a third based on access difficulties to adjoining properties
2. Lofty Group does not "over resource" we (I) send extra appliances because we (I) know that during the daytime we have brigades that cant get crews together...so its not about over resourcing its about making sure the community receives an adequate level of response during known times of light crewing.
If I have to respond 2 brigades to a job to get 4 or five FF's at the incident then so be it..
Just be careful with throwaway comments when you dont fully understand the situation.
Cheers
Rainer
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...so its not about over resourcing its about making sure the community receives an adequate level of response during known times of light crewing.
If I have to respond 2 brigades to a job to get 4 or five FF's at the incident then so be it..
It's one thing to respond multiple brigades to ensure adequate crew - there is nothing wrong with that, but I'm suggesting that if you want 3 trucks and hence, middle of the day, three brigades are responded, they don't all need to send 2-3 trucks each. Its nothing to do with the response requests and as I said, has more to do with Brigade discipline and individual appliance response.
Just be careful with throwaway comments when you dont fully understand the situation.
Being nice and careful. Just commenting on long running trends over the past few years.
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6739264 may I ask which brigade/group/paid fireservice/SES unit you belong to?
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For sure, Im a member or a reasonably busy CFS Brigade with domestic, commercial and industrial risks, as well as rescue capabilites. I work in the Firefighting Industry and am a member of my not so 'Rescue' local SES that happens to cover most of your Group.
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LOL Riiiight ...thats all that covered then...
Cheers mate
Rainer
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LOL Riiiight ...thats all that covered then...
Cheers mate
Rainer
I can give you both my Drivers License number and Credit Card number if you want as well?
Name/Rank/Serial?
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3rd alarm and salisbury cfs not called!!!!! :? :? :?
Because every time we ask for 1 Salisbury CFS truck we end up with 3, if we ask for 1 send 1, not the 34 and the regional spare !! :x
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LOL Riiiight ...thats all that covered then...
Cheers mate
Rainer
Rainer, i bet i know who you initially thought numbers was, i thought too, that guy stuck in the land of the mardi gra's lol ;) but he isnt...
Because every time we ask for 1 Salisbury CFS truck we end up with 3, if we ask for 1 send 1, not the 34 and the regional spare !! angry
cant remember where it says this, cos it doesnt relate to my brigade at all or at least "rarely"....1 24P/34P/Pumper appliance response when responding into MFS area, unless specifically asked over Alerts, Phone or Pager (I.E Grassy in MFS area..obviously a 34)
Primarily, you should definitely keep 1 appliance at your own station 90% of the time for that out of the blue 2nd or 3rd heavy response incident.
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The topic is about who got called - it's relevant to discuss who didn't. So long as it's not whining. A mature discussion is welcome.
On the topic of Salisbury CFS not getting a run...Did the chiefs not sign off on an agreement that said closest most appropriate resource?
Have the chiefs actually signed off on the "closest & most appropriate?"
Last I heard of it, (about 6 weeks ago) it had still not been signed, and discussions were (still) continuing.... has it been signed since then?
Pip
it was signed by the 3 chiefs (CFS/MFS/SES) quite a while ago, and hence yes it is supposedly in effect. I say supposedly as we still have single SES unit responses to life threat situations where they take ages and drive past multiple CFS brigades. But that aside, there is some arguing about the wording (eg. nearest, fastest, closest) currently going on within CFS.
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I think it's the way the "system" is set up - before I left we had numerous jobs that were given to other units based on what is in the system - not on who was the closest appropriate resource. Care factor - not much at least some one went.
On the driving past brigades - again it's the closest appropriate resource - not closest resource!
The comment on taking ages cuts both ways - had to wait up to 1/2 an hour for any fire resource to turn up for jobs this had occured more than once and several times they had to drive past the closest appropriate resource (who were not called), go figure!
Finally there was a job here recently (last week) where the occupants of a car had to wait TEN hours for a response by emergency services! The problem wasn't the system, lack of crews, equipment etc - they were not noticed.
So guys & girls it's not a perfect world, you will always get hick ups - so stop bitching & work towards improving your part of the organisation. After all no ones perfect are they? cheers
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it was signed by the 3 chiefs (CFS/MFS/SES) quite a while ago, and hence yes it is supposedly in effect. I say supposedly as we still have single SES unit responses to life threat situations where they take ages and drive past multiple CFS brigades. But that aside, there is some arguing about the wording (eg. nearest, fastest, closest) currently going on within CFS.
not quite....agreed in principle is I believe the term used....lots of sticking points from all services that still need to be addressed (or the perspective of that particular Service representative re-aligned by his his Chief...lol).
So signed off for implementation, still a ways off
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On the driving past brigades - again it's the closest appropriate resource - not closest resource!
In the case of most CFS brigades that are "being driven past"...they have a chainsaw or two with PPE on there appliances. Hence the CFS brigade is the closest and most appropriate first responder.
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3rd alarm and salisbury cfs not called!!!!! :? :? :?
Because every time we ask for 1 Salisbury CFS truck we end up with 3, if we ask for 1 send 1, not the 34 and the regional spare !! :x
agreed at times there may be an over response from CFS into MFS area, however you also need to remember that CFS operates differently to MFS due to crew having to respond to the station.For example MFS call for assistance from CFS appliance, urban area, first CFS appliance rolls within 4 mins but only has 2 BA, 1 OIC and driver with no BA, 2 mins later CFS roll second appliance once other BA crew arrive at station.once on scene the 4 BA crew become one team and the second truck you have on scene is available to run to another incident should one occur. so yes you have more than 1 CFS appliance however the second appliance is ready to run and has been used to ensure the MFS upgraded incident has the appropriate CFS personal on scene.
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Fair call Zippy - but as I said it's the current despatch system. And how does the "system" know it's an appropriate resource! Not all brigades are equipped or trained for storm damage ops (even cutting up a fallen tree on a road).
Either every CFS brigade is deemed appropriate or none are.
It's the same argument as used in RCR the Green book gives the minimum standard for all, but it's not enforced by all.
And some of you are of the opinion that Storm damge ops is a council job anyway!
As a side issue there is a big debate here about inappropriate response by RFS in one of the local council areas.Basically the local mayor of a town not far from here is in the media saying that the RFS calls all incidents (major) & over responds appliances. The incident mentioned involves a local farmer doing a controlled burn off is rough country, next thing he knows the RFS is there full noise, multiple appliances & crew & somehow a national media organisation gets hold of the story saying " a large bush fire is threatening such & such town".
RFS is investigating, the reason I mention this is a) only got one side of the story - which looks bad fro RFS, b) funding comes from the council - maybe the council is not happy paying out so much money (hidden agenda?), c) that SA is not on it's own with issues like over/under response!
Anyway I'm sure once SACAD is introduced the problems will be solved :wink:
cheers
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3rd alarm and salisbury cfs not called!!!!! :? :? :?
Because every time we ask for 1 Salisbury CFS truck we end up with 3, if we ask for 1 send 1, not the 34 and the regional spare !! :x
agreed at times there may be an over response from CFS into MFS area, however you also need to remember that CFS operates differently to MFS due to crew having to respond to the station.For example MFS call for assistance from CFS appliance, urban area, first CFS appliance rolls within 4 mins but only has 2 BA, 1 OIC and driver with no BA, 2 mins later CFS roll second appliance once other BA crew arrive at station.once on scene the 4 BA crew become one team and the second truck you have on scene is available to run to another incident should one occur. so yes you have more than 1 CFS appliance however the second appliance is ready to run and has been used to ensure the MFS upgraded incident has the appropriate CFS personal on scene.
Sigh, 1 truck, that means 1 truck, not sure what other language you want that in...your just creating parking hassles....if you don't have enough crew to start with don't go, we don't actually count CFS...your a bonus. Next time I respond with my CFS brigade I think I might take all 3 trucks to give the lads a go, if some guys that live further out haven't worn BA in a while I might get them to come along to later, just to give em a go.
No wonder we have trouble being taken seriously when we are doing our CFS duties.
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Fair call Zippy - but as I said it's the current despatch system. And how does the "system" know it's an appropriate resource! Not all brigades are equipped or trained for storm damage ops (even cutting up a fallen tree on a road).
Either every CFS brigade is deemed appropriate or none are.
It's the same argument as used in RCR the Green book gives the minimum standard for all, but it's not enforced by all.
might be time for a Pink book for Severe Weather incidents ;)
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3rd alarm and salisbury cfs not called!!!!! :? :? :?
Because every time we ask for 1 Salisbury CFS truck we end up with 3, if we ask for 1 send 1, not the 34 and the regional spare !! :x
agreed at times there may be an over response from CFS into MFS area, however you also need to remember that CFS operates differently to MFS due to crew having to respond to the station.For example MFS call for assistance from CFS appliance, urban area, first CFS appliance rolls within 4 mins but only has 2 BA, 1 OIC and driver with no BA, 2 mins later CFS roll second appliance once other BA crew arrive at station.once on scene the 4 BA crew become one team and the second truck you have on scene is available to run to another incident should one occur. so yes you have more than 1 CFS appliance however the second appliance is ready to run and has been used to ensure the MFS upgraded incident has the appropriate CFS personal on scene.
Sigh, 1 truck, that means 1 truck, not sure what other language you want that in...your just creating parking hassles....if you don't have enough crew to start with don't go, we don't actually count CFS...your a bonus. Next time I respond with my CFS brigade I think I might take all 3 trucks to give the lads a go, if some guys that live further out haven't worn BA in a while I might get them to come along to later, just to give em a go.
No wonder we have trouble being taken seriously when we are doing our CFS duties.
completely agree with you about that.
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3rd alarm and salisbury cfs not called!!!!! :? :? :?
Because every time we ask for 1 Salisbury CFS truck we end up with 3, if we ask for 1 send 1, not the 34 and the regional spare !! :x
agreed at times there may be an over response from CFS into MFS area, however you also need to remember that CFS operates differently to MFS due to crew having to respond to the station.For example MFS call for assistance from CFS appliance, urban area, first CFS appliance rolls within 4 mins but only has 2 BA, 1 OIC and driver with no BA, 2 mins later CFS roll second appliance once other BA crew arrive at station.once on scene the 4 BA crew become one team and the second truck you have on scene is available to run to another incident should one occur. so yes you have more than 1 CFS appliance however the second appliance is ready to run and has been used to ensure the MFS upgraded incident has the appropriate CFS personal on scene.
Sigh, 1 truck, that means 1 truck, not sure what other language you want that in...your just creating parking hassles....if you don't have enough crew to start with don't go, we don't actually count CFS...your a bonus. Next time I respond with my CFS brigade I think I might take all 3 trucks to give the lads a go, if some guys that live further out haven't worn BA in a while I might get them to come along to later, just to give em a go.
No wonder we have trouble being taken seriously when we are doing our CFS duties.
Where on the page does it say 1 truck? I thought when CFS are paged they are paging the brigade? So if the likes of Mt barker get paged for a house fire and MTBK19 comes up they only should send 1 truck to it?? So youre with Salisbury MFS then?
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3rd alarm and salisbury cfs not called!!!!! :? :? :?
Because every time we ask for 1 Salisbury CFS truck we end up with 3, if we ask for 1 send 1, not the 34 and the regional spare !! :x
agreed at times there may be an over response from CFS into MFS area, however you also need to remember that CFS operates differently to MFS due to crew having to respond to the station.For example MFS call for assistance from CFS appliance, urban area, first CFS appliance rolls within 4 mins but only has 2 BA, 1 OIC and driver with no BA, 2 mins later CFS roll second appliance once other BA crew arrive at station.once on scene the 4 BA crew become one team and the second truck you have on scene is available to run to another incident should one occur. so yes you have more than 1 CFS appliance however the second appliance is ready to run and has been used to ensure the MFS upgraded incident has the appropriate CFS personal on scene.
Sigh, 1 truck, that means 1 truck, not sure what other language you want that in...your just creating parking hassles....if you don't have enough crew to start with don't go, we don't actually count CFS...your a bonus. Next time I respond with my CFS brigade I think I might take all 3 trucks to give the lads a go, if some guys that live further out haven't worn BA in a while I might get them to come along to later, just to give em a go.
No wonder we have trouble being taken seriously when we are doing our CFS duties.
Where on the page does it say 1 truck? I thought when CFS are paged they are paging the brigade? So if the likes of Mt barker get paged for a house fire and MTBK19 comes up they only should send 1 truck to it?? So youre with Salisbury MFS then?
Last time I checked, Barker don't often get paged to assist MFS.
-His point (which is quite clear), is if X CFS brigade is paged to asssit MFS at a House Fire.. - Dont roll with 2 BA on one truck, then 5 mins later bring the 34 with another BA operator, then the Spare with 2 operators 15 mins later.. - WAIT a couple of mins till all 4 BA get there, and send the one truck.
If you only get 2 BA, send the one truck (as requested), if more rock up 10 mins later, too bad, you missed the call..
No need to dump the "house".. EG.(Don't Respond every appliance into MFS area, in 5 min intervals with the crew who arrive 15 mins into the job).. - Quite frankly, if it keeps happening, you might find the requests will cease..
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Or we just don't worry about it Zippy ( I know you were only kidding :wink:)! If the service introduces another book, SOP, instruction (whatever :-D)- it will just be ignored by those who think they know better.
Have to agree with SA fire, I was always under the impression that brigades/ units were paged & if there was a special requirement provided by that particular brigade/ unit then it would be identified e.g.boat, floatation pump etc.
Having said that I also agree with the comment on vehicles clogging up the parking area/scene & if a particular brigade/ unit is not the first response & can't provide a full crew then they should stay in the shed.
It looks totally unproffessional to have multitudes of vehicles around a scene just because "everyone wants to be there".
Finally everyone (well almost everyone) sticks their boot into Adelaide fire (I know I have :oops:) but imagine how inefficient it would be trying to second guess every task (i.e are they the closest?, should I put only one truck?, if I get this wrong they will bag me on that filtered forum :wink: ).
Seriously think about how many jobs go right & what the ultimate aim is - if too many trucks is the problem or certain brigades are not getting enough jobs, maybe you are over resourced? By the way if you get a chance have a look at the latest report on volunteering it's an interesting read. And on that happy note - cheers
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i would think the CFS Promotions website has to be the best Resource Directory around! (Pip, Ashes...would be good to have a section to search by suburb for the nearest of something eg. cudlee creek PPV Fan Two finds: Lobethal and gumeracha)
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Maybe for CFS but not every service - no disrepsect Pip it's a great site!
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it was signed by the 3 chiefs (CFS/MFS/SES) quite a while ago, and hence yes it is supposedly in effect. I say supposedly as we still have single SES unit responses to life threat situations where they take ages and drive past multiple CFS brigades. But that aside, there is some arguing about the wording (eg. nearest, fastest, closest) currently going on within CFS.
not quite....agreed in principle is I believe the term used....lots of sticking points from all services that still need to be addressed (or the perspective of that particular Service representative re-aligned by his his Chief...lol).
So signed off for implementation, still a ways off
well responses in BOMS were changed based on it and CRD notification of issue forms are lodged based on it
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Ok. Can I try to make this really easy for everyone involved?
There are a couple of different scenarios being discussed here and they need to be separated. Its more about commonsense than a hard and fast rule.
First of all, lets say there is a House Fire on the border of Mt. Barker and Littlehapton. Its the middle of the day. We all know Mt. Barker can get crews for at least two trucks, Littlehampton are good, but not a certainty. In this case, I would immediately turn out the Pump and 24P from Mt. Barker, as they both carry CABA, and would have enough operators. When Littlehampton arrive in their 24P and 24 if they get enough crew, that makes 4 trucks total on the fire ground. This ain't bad for a volunteer service. Depending on the fire, you would even query Littlehampton 24.
Ok, so nothing wrong with that. CFS turning out into CFS area. Brigades turning out more than one truck. Questionable crewing, daytime, etc etc etc.
Now for the Salisbury example, if SAMFS already have multiple resources assigned, they are not asking for the help of the CFS (Oh CFS COME SAVE US) its more of a courtesy than anything else. Much like the wacky responses for Seafood and Morphett Vale and MFS that sent 6 Trucks to a Rubbish fire, because the CFS boys took it upon themselves to unleash every truck in the station.
Use your head! Its not hard. If you are turning out into MFS area to a job of THEIRS, chances are they have it in hand at the moment, and you're backup or a courtesy. You don't need to rush out the door and then have the 'rest' of your BA crew come 15 minutes later. As RescueHazmat and others have already said in this thread, just relax and think.
As I was trying to suggest earlier in the thread as well, its in places like Mt. Lofty group that get 9 trucks to a small shed fire, block the road and look like a bunch of ******* because people don't think about whats been turned out, whats at the job already and whats needed. Got the 12 at the job and the 24P is crewed 10mins later? ASK if its needed. Need another resource? Try to get it from a Brigade already assigned rather than get another whole brigade and 100 trucks turned out.
People bang on about being Professional Volunteers, but as soon as the pagers go off, its like their brain melts and it turns into a Dads Army filtered with a billion trucks in a street doing nothing just so 'everyone gets a go'
MOD Note - Try to choose language that does not cause offence to anyone.
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I have never agreed with numbers more than this occasion.
We are talking about responding to MFS area. Not just CFS jobs. It happens all to often out north, being in both services, it does embarass me. Those that have been involved in EMA brigades for years will know that its 1 truck unless directed otherwise.
You send 1 truck, perhaps ring comms and say, hey look, we have another crew, do you want it? you will more than likely get told no, but stay around the area as you might get used for other jobs.
It just look very cowboyish to rock up with everything you can muster. Just remember, you are not the one's upgrading the job, MFS are. Sending all 3 trucks turns what would perhaps be a 2 and a half alarm job to 4th alarm, without it being asked for.
Stop doing it, your not helping.
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Fair call Zippy - but as I said it's the current despatch system. And how does the "system" know it's an appropriate resource!
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Either every CFS brigade is deemed appropriate or none are.
that's what a computer-based dispatch system is for! (different response types, different capabilities etc)
I should have known you'd pop up again as soon as I mentioned those letters SES. Try to understand this is not about having a go at SES volunteers or about turning everything into some kind of CFS vs SES thing. It's about public safety being compromised because a much closer appropriate 'resource' is not being responded to some incident types (I'm thinking of the Adelaide Hills area but gather it happens elsewhere too).
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Fair call Zippy - but as I said it's the current despatch system. And how does the "system" know it's an appropriate resource!
In theory callsigns, ie 19, 00, 20, 29, 42, 28 etc...
maybe time to introduce one for CFS brigades with storm damage stowage, or just add 20 to them as well...
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Ok. Can I try to make this really easy for everyone involved?
Mr numbers you're doing fine talking about MFS area but when you get stuck into lofty group again you're heading off on the wrong track. And Rainer already explained why (I wouldn't have justified anything if I was him by the way, he is answerable to the group management and up the chain, not you, but anyway).
I am curious though why you say having too many (by your judgement of 'too many', were you there?) trucks on scene looks 'retarded'? to whom? I've never heard of any member of the public complain about too many trucks turning up to fight a fire.
you are in danger of sounding like one of those people that bang on about fire trucks should be red not white, or should be mercs instead of mazdas or whatever, at every opportunity because that's their opinion and they have a bee in their bonnet about it and are unable to see any other points of view. Those sort of people are not taken seriously you know.
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Mr numbers you're doing fine talking about MFS area but when you get stuck into lofty group again you're heading off on the wrong track. And Rainer already explained why (I wouldn't have justified anything if I was him by the way, he is answerable to the group management and up the chain, not you, but anyway).
I am simply using some of the more recent jobs that Mt. lofty group have attended to highlight what happens when Brigades turnout everything that they can without taking into account what is really need/already assigned to the job. I was not having a go at anyone, nor questioning the abilities of the IC. The only reason I'm specifically talking about Mt. Lofty is because they seem to always do it. Other groups are guilty of it as well, don't worry...
I am curious though why you say having too many (by your judgement of 'too many', were you there?) trucks on scene looks 'retarded'? to whom? I've never heard of any member of the public complain about too many trucks turning up to fight a fire.
I am a strong believer in getting the job done with the minimum of fuss and in the fastest time possible. I don't really care who 'gets a go' or who gets their fun for the week. I know that house fires are exciting and not all that common in certain areas of the state, but if you can't knock a house over with 4 pumps max, you need to reassess your basic skillset. There is simply no need to fill the street with trucks, when you have 99% of people not doing anything. I'll happily admit I'm wrong if it can be shown that EVERY person off EVERY truck is being put to good use. As soon as that is not the case, you have too many people - send them home.
I have been to MANY jobs that I believe have been over resourced both with the CFS and not. A parking lot for firetrucks just looks stupid and unprofessional if they are not all being used. This is REGARDLESS of the Service.
As for the general public, I have often heard "Whats on fire?" "XYZ" "OH? Why so many trucks?" for jobs, from structures to grass. It all comes down to public perception. If they see 2 trucks getting stuck in and the boys working their ring off, they think "Wow, look at those brave men" if they see 10 trucks and everyone standing doing nothing then we fall into the Dads Army category.
you are in danger of sounding like one of those people that bang on about fire trucks should be red not white, or should be mercs instead of mazdas or whatever, at every opportunity because that's their opinion and they have a bee in their bonnet about it and are unable to see any other points of view. Those sort of people are not taken seriously you know.
For the record, Red looks better and both Mercs and Mazdas look retarded as fire trucks. ;)
Mate, I post on this site. Do you really think I believe I'm taken seriously? Or that I care in the slightest?
Edit: Spelllling
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Numbers, +6 Kudos.
Minimum fuss and fast time is good, attempting to get it right at each job is what we should be aiming for. As an incident controller if you believe youve got nearly enough resources on scene, ask for every oncoming appliance to downgrade to priority 2, rather than stop called, so more time can be had to assess.
and too right about merc's and mazda's....and for my record...Red with white (CFA) is my preference ;).
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Honey....The kids are fighting with their cousins again! :-D
Somewhere in a groups SOP I think it says "if its good enough for one truck, its good enough for all", lets party!
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I have been to MANY jobs that I believe have been over resourced both with the CFS and not.
ok so the reason why you think it looks 'retarded' is you like to see the minimum number possible present and everyone working flat out. I think you'll just have to accept that not everyone is going to agree with you!
Mate, I post on this site. Do you really think I believe I'm taken seriously? Or that I care in the slightest?
yep fraid so! ;) you post here far too often and far too passionately for someone who doesn't
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I agree that only one appliance should be sent to MFS area. As per SOP 7.1 the CFS is complimentary to SAMFS response so it doesn't matter if you never go.
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Mr Darius, its got stuff all to do with CFS/SES - personally I don't give a toss which service does what. If you don't believe me read a very early post around one service for SA in which I agreed with Numbers (in theory anyway) that there should be one service. Or that brigades could raise there own unit.
What I am saying is when it comes to appropriate resource, how would anyone outside of your local CFS group know what would be the resource.
If you read back through this thread - SES was used as an example.
However when the shoe is on the other foot - i.e SAMFS is the closest resource but don't get called & we have to wait half an hour or more for a half crewed CFS truck (which has driven past another brigade shed to get to the location), some of you guys go into denial. And the CFS house needs a good tidy up itself before throwing rocks at others glass houses.
Finally "And Rainer already explained why (I wouldn't have justified anything if I was him by the way, he is answerable to the group management and up the chain, not you, but anyway)." this seemed a wierd comment to make to a fellow member of the service that votes its officers in & prides itself on being made up of community members & remember Numbers pays ESL like everyone else (including me) so why aren't we entitled to ask questions? Especially when it involves a potential waste of those limited dollars? Remember everytime you start a truck, turn on a GRN or a light your budget is being spent!
So mate remember when you don your Yellow Nomex (or PBI Gold) & drive your trucks to a scene (whether they be White or Red) you are serving the community & we are intitled to the best, most efficient, most professional & cost effective service you can provide.
Great response by the way Numbers :-D totally agree
cheers
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Interesting topic....In my group, we have a rule, the primary brigade can respond 2 trucks, and the back up responds 1 unless told otherwise. Makes for a far more manageble incident. Stops alot of this sending everything business. Leaves something in the station for further calls.
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Honey....The kids are fighting with their cousins again! :-D
I think some people on this forum have done a little more than 'fight' with their cousins ;)
ok so the reason why you think it looks 'retarded' is you like to see the minimum number possible present and everyone working flat out. I think you'll just have to accept that not everyone is going to agree with you!
I understand that people disagree, I just don't see how you can advocate having more people at an emergency than you need. Incident scenes are already cramped and overcrowded without having people who are doing nothing getting in the way. And don't let me tell you that i think 6 on a truck is too many ;)
Mate, I post on this site. Do you really think I believe I'm taken seriously? Or that I care in the slightest?
yep fraid so! ;) you post here far too often and far too passionately for someone who doesn't
Haha, either that, or I don't mind getting people stirred up nor take anything seriously at all...
Mr Darius, its got stuff all to do with CFS/SES - personally I don't give a toss which service does what...
What I am saying is when it comes to appropriate resource, how would anyone outside of your local CFS group know what would be the resource.
However when the shoe is on the other foot ... some of you guys go into denial. And the CFS house needs a good tidy up itself before throwing rocks at others glass houses.
You're dead right chook. We whine about the most appropriate resource, but when it comes down to it, I don't know who has a chainsaw around here, ourside of my group. Untill that information is taken down, and stored, then we can be sure of one thing, the SES HAS got a chainsaw. Thus if a tree falls down, according to the current information, they are the most appropriate reource. Its the same with CFS Brigades and PPVs/Powersaws etc...
And don't get me started on people throwing mud whilst covered in it themselves.
Interesting topic....In my group, we have a rule, the primary brigade can respond 2 trucks, and the back up responds 1 unless told otherwise. Makes for a far more manageble incident. Stops alot of this sending everything business. Leaves something in the station for further calls.
I like the sound of that, clears up 110% of the overcrowding issues. As long as the lines of communication are open and being used.
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Prior to the change of CRD from CFS to Adelaide Fire, the closest & most appropriate resource was being dispatched to trees down within my area, and surrounding areas.
In all cases it was CFS, as SES was at least half an hour's drive way in all directions. The data was there, and being used to dispatch the nearest & most appropriate resource.
The CRD function went across to Adelaide Fire, and suddenly all that response data was gone, and we have the problem of waiting for an hour an half, or more for a single SES person, in a private vehicle to attend, having passed two or three CFS stations along the way, when the CFS crew is 6 minutes away...
No over resourcing there...just under resourcing.... :-(
Pip
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Interesting topic....In my group, we have a rule, the primary brigade can respond 2 trucks, and the back up responds 1 unless told otherwise. Makes for a far more manageble incident. Stops alot of this sending everything business. Leaves something in the station for further calls.
Thats right, it's been that way ever since I can remember. The only time we send two trucks to another area automatically is our 14 to a rural fire in the FDS. It goes because it is not classed as an appliance (as per the SOP's it takes two QAV / 14's to equal one appliance) and too often if we are requested into MFS area for a grassy it is because they can't get to it so our 14 is ideal.
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Yeah i fully understand how overcrowding looks crap. And have been asked why when we rock up to a job to be swamped by lofty trucks. :-D
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Interesting topic....In my group, we have a rule, the primary brigade can respond 2 trucks, and the back up responds 1 unless told otherwise. Makes for a far more manageble incident. Stops alot of this sending everything business. Leaves something in the station for further calls.
As Matt and Darren have said, it does work extremely well.. Including the response of the 14's. Happy Valley and M/Vale 14's have been extremely handy in fighting some rather large fires in the past!..
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Ok Pip that is in your area - so what happened to the data? And if the problem is not enough units close enough then there is a possible solution :wink:
Trouble is everyone goes on about a lack of this & a lack of that in such an area. So most peoples solution is throw more resources at the CFS!
But on other occasions you can have a Volvo/ Isuzu appliance, a 14, a 34/34p, a 91 unit, a 31/41 unit plus 2 ambulances & several patrol cars at a single vehicle MVA with no entrapment. And of recent times a group car & a commanders car as well!
And if you look at some of the media coverage of recent SAMFS & CFS responses, there are vehicles all over the place.
Finally going back to the start of this thread, it was all about a tragic house fire which was in a MFS area & the question was asked "Why wasn't CFS invited?" (paraphrased)- quite simple the OIC didn't need them! I could imagine the carry on (from some members of this forum) if I asked the same question about not being asked by CFS to participate in some of their operations (where our particular skills were required e.g. boat, landsearch etc). And I have seen what happens to the local SAMFS guys when they have asked the same question.
I agree the system is not perfect & I know SES has a lot of work to do in managing some of the issues within the service. I'm not really sure what direction (if any) the services are going, but from where I sit most of this is storm in a tea cup stuff(at least you guys have pagers!)& all it's really about is learning to play together & to utilise all of the resources properly (& not worrying about who owns them - after all they all belong to the tax payer).
Maybe Numbers is right one emergency service for SA is the way to go :-D
cheers
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all it's really about is learning to play together & to utilise all of the resources properly
My point exactly.
Pip
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all it's really about is learning to play together & to utilise all of the resources properly
My point exactly.
Pip
Its all about looking after your own backyard first too :wink:
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3rd alarm and salisbury cfs not called!!!!! :? :? :?
Because every time we ask for 1 Salisbury CFS truck we end up with 3, if we ask for 1 send 1, not the 34 and the regional spare !! :x
so pumprescue you did not answer the question are you stationed at station 32??
as i beleave you are missing something here!!!!
as most calls we get going into mfs area we only send 1(ONE) TRUCK
if its a going job we have been asked a number of times - hungry jacks fire, brahma logde house fire to name a few , the station officer has thanked us for the help.
and finally if it is mfs area and we are the only truck going we send what we see fitting!!!
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and finally if it is mfs area and we are the only truck going we send what we see fitting!!!
That would explain the two appliances to an MVA in MFS area last night, I was wondering what prompted that.
How do you know if MFS are going or not though ?? You cannot rely on the page as quit often you will be only one on the initial page but another MFS appliance will be added to the job shortly after.
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if its just SLSB19 to a MVA in MFS area, it sounds logical to send a Rescue and Fire appliance (hence 24P/34)
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Not when its in MFS area..
Do you think MFS respond CFS into their area, and not turn out their own trucks, on the hope that CFS will crew?
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yeah you got a point there, 202 (in maybe oakdens area) was also enroute to the MVA it sounded.
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facts people- Salisbury CFS were being turned out all night on Wednesday by themselves due to 2 domestic fires in Elizabeth (ps no chg of quarters, just CFS response)and yes Salisbury CFS rolled two trucks out the door to a MVA into MFS area as they were the only responders, no other MFS appliances were dispatched.And guess what, the job was done and done well!!!
To be honest i dont understand this whole thread, Salisbury CFS do over 450 calls a year so it is not in their interest to drum up extra calls or even dispatch more trucks than necessary due to the busy nature of the brigade. There will always be a minority of people that play the "what about us" card but I would suggest that is not the feelings of the total brigade.
As far as I am concerned if the pager goes of trucks will roll out the door as deemed appropriate at the time by the OIC. if that response is deemed to be inappropriate by MFS in MFS area speak to someone of rank, ask questions give people the chance to learn if mistakes are made, dont just bitch on an internet forum where nothing will get done to address an issue if it is there.
and yes, i am a very proud member of Salisbury CFS
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yeah you got a point there, 202 (in maybe oakdens area) was also enroute to the MVA it sounded.
Speaking to someone from Salisbury, the only MFS appliance that attended was Oakden 301 only to drop off some more adsorbent, and then they left.
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Not when its in MFS area..
Do you think MFS respond CFS into their area, and not turn out their own trucks, on the hope that CFS will crew?
How do you know that a quick phone call wasnt made to the CFS station saying "hang around fella's, a lot of our resources committed"? Listening to the jobs going down they were on the road pretty much straight away after the page.
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yeah you got a point there, 202 (in maybe oakdens area) was also enroute to the MVA it sounded.
Speaking to someone from Salisbury, the only MFS appliance that attended was Oakden 301 only to drop off some more adsorbent, and then they left.
Ah, well i overheard they were having MCT problems EG showing which area an appliance is in....202 was rolling to the MVA, but Salisbury stop called them. (Since 202 is Rescue)
Job done, good work.
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202 is not rescue,albeit it has the resources, it's a second pumper. 204 is the rescue
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202 is actually 209...but for dispatching purposes it had to be 202 to not conflict with 204 ;)
and ive heard its becoming 339 anyway...hence the New volvo becoming either 201 or 202...
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Dare I ask, is it so hard to query other resources that have been responded?
Numerous times, I have looked at the pager, to see only our brigade going to something out of area/should be multiple resources. Upon calling Adelaide Fire, I have asked what else is going and they are able t fill me in...
ITS
NOT
THAT
HARD.
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Exactly.
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Wow a lot of defensive people on here. In a normal world going by the EMA agreement, you are to send ONLY the truck asked for. In unusual or busy times you still send the one truck and ASK if more are required. The issue is sending trucks willy nilly, when NOT asked for...yes they might say thanks, but it makes the job so much harder, especailly when comms don't know your sending 2 or 3 trucks that haven't been asked for.
THATS the issue here....
Moving along.
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202 is actually 209...but for dispatching purposes it had to be 202 to not conflict with 204
and ive heard its becoming 339 anyway...hence the New volvo becoming either 201 or 202...
If/when it becomes 339, will elizabeth become a 3 appliance station or a pumper be diverted somewhere else?
[edit: fixed quoting]
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facts people- Salisbury CFS were being turned out all night on Wednesday by themselves due to 2 domestic fires in Elizabeth (ps no chg of quarters, just CFS response)and yes Salisbury CFS rolled two trucks out the door to a MVA into MFS area as they were the only responders, no other MFS appliances were dispatched.And guess what, the job was done and done well!!!
To be honest i dont understand this whole thread, Salisbury CFS do over 450 calls a year so it is not in their interest to drum up extra calls or even dispatch more trucks than necessary due to the busy nature of the brigade. There will always be a minority of people that play the "what about us" card but I would suggest that is not the feelings of the total brigade.
As far as I am concerned if the pager goes of trucks will roll out the door as deemed appropriate at the time by the OIC. if that response is deemed to be inappropriate by MFS in MFS area speak to someone of rank, ask questions give people the chance to learn if mistakes are made, dont just bitch on an internet forum where nothing will get done to address an issue if it is there.
and yes, i am a very proud member of Salisbury CFS
well said grant!!!
btw we missed you at the 3 calls tonight?
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Meanwhile back to the house fire :-P
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Meanwhile back to the house fire :-P
Go home ....its a car park! :lol:
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Okay just so we all remember we are a voluntary fire service... we are not full time paid. Yes we do an awesome job but we should be glad we don't get called out, less call outs means less fires.
We are here to serve the community not to debate how the MFS conduct their business... and to those whom want more and more work for their brigade, don't its just over resourcing jobs, and using up precious funds.
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Hey cool, fun and interesting discussion (some of it going around in circles so fast I've got dizzy reading this thread) but hey I like it (then again I like stirring myself and a few of ya have got it down to a fine art)
Numbers there are certain wicked and evil things about ya that I really like!!!
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Be careful - very careful! :-D
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Stirring..!?!?!.. No one here stirs the pot Katrina..
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If the responses are all approved and pre organised etc like you say then why does only 1 appliance come up on 150 and the rest go stealth? Like a house fire months ago out there when the duty officer said don't come up on 150 to the second truck and the regional spare and the tanker and Dalkeith hazmat...
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that sounds nuff nuff..
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Numbers there are certain wicked and evil things about ya that I really like!!!
sounds like a wierd kinda messed up dating site... your in Numbers.... :wink:
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Go Numbers! or checkout the latest member: "1328691"
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Go Numbers! or checkout the latest member: "1328691"
Maybe he could change his profile name to "Numbers" :wink:
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:roll:
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As I was trying to suggest earlier in the thread as well, its in places like Mt. Lofty group that get 9 trucks to a small shed fire, block the road and look like a bunch of retards because people don't think about whats been turned out, whats at the job already and whats needed. Got the 12 at the job and the 24P is crewed 10mins later? ASK if its needed. Need another resource? Try to get it from a Brigade already assigned rather than get another whole brigade and 100 trucks turned out.
Got an example !!
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Vehicle Fire/RCR, 2 Car , Crafers on Freeway. during 1st quarter of 08 i think.
Stirling Pump, 12, Rescue, Tanker (20mins between first and last)
Aldgate 12
Burnside Pumper
Piccadilly 24
Glen Osmond 441
Lofty duty officer
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So guessing, looking at this example.
Freeway: 1st problem exacty location? Leawood Gardens, Mt.Osmond, Stirling Etc.
BOMS does not help the system eg: Will respond Stirling and Aldgate automatically to any job to the Mt. Osmond Overpass, Burnside and Glen Osmond up to the Crafers interchange.
Is the fire on the up or on the down.
Can't explain the Lofty Duty Officer response but.
I was under the understanding that Piccadilly did not want to respond to the freeway this was the discussion I had with their Captain earlier in the year.
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Location: Near Crafers interchange...paged as "unknown specific location"
I was under the understanding that Piccadilly did not want to respond to the freeway this was the discussion I had with their Captain earlier in the year.
I believe there is mixed feeligs about this in there brigade...probably not the appropriate appliance in there possession for doing so i would think. When Piccadilly 24 gets replaced, i assume responding to the freeway will be re-visited.
When it comes down to it, when Stirling and Aldgate both have a bad day with crewing, The Stirling-Tunnels section of the freeway is Piccadilly's area.
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Play nice in the sand pit kids. And please don't use language or terms that demean others.
If you have please edit your posts.
By all means make your point but do it using constructive well constructed sentences. You make yourself look fairly average when certain terms are thrown around. Think about it.....
There are better ways to make a point....
Now back to the topic.
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Got an example !!
Ok, Capt. Crankypants, have a look at nearly *ANY* of Mt. Lofty groups working structure fires over the past few years. A large number of them have turned into a truck parking lot on the road outside the fire. This is usually only caused by Brigades self responding every truck they can, when there is no need to.
No need to go blowing up about it, I'm not having a go at anyone, just trying to suggest to people that we can do things better and in a more professional manner. Next time you go to that MVA up the road with your 12, does the 24 really need to come to?
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Piccadilly's response for the freeway is that we go if the pager goes and don;t if it doesn't. Sometimes we get the gig and other times it is Aldgate and know one knows why. :-D
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You go if the pager goes, and you don't if it doesn't?... - Guess thats a good thing..
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Keep it friendly - talk the issue not the person. Don't get personal please.
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You go if the pager goes, and you don't if it doesn't?... - Guess thats a good thing..
Unlike various other brigades all around the state, who respond to calls even if they haven't been called.....!
Pip
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I was under the understanding that Piccadilly did not want to respond to the
When it comes down to it, when Stirling and Aldgate both have a bad day with crewing, The Stirling-Tunnels section of the freeway is Piccadilly's area.
Piccadilly's response for the freeway is that we go if the pager goes and don;t if it doesn't. Sometimes we get the gig and other times it is Aldgate and know one knows why. :-D
From my understanding with the group response plan and I can be corrected if I am wrong is that Aldgate are responded to the freeway to assist Stirling in "Rescue Operations" as R1 approved the SFEC variation for Aldgate to do RCR with Rapid Intervention. This variation was approved a long time prior to me joining this group from region 3.
I have mixed feelings about this also but if it has been approved well then it is approved.
Got an example !!
Ok, Capt. Crankypants, have a look at nearly *ANY* of Mt. Lofty groups working structure fires over the past few years. A large number of them have turned into a truck parking lot on the road outside the fire. This is usually only caused by Brigades self responding every truck they can, when there is no need to.
No need to go blowing up about it, I'm not having a go at anyone, just trying to suggest to people that we can do things better and in a more professional manner. Next time you go to that MVA up the road with your 12, does the 24 really need to come to?
I do agree with you, for a person who came from a different region who is trying to grasp why we need 8 appliances to attend a tree fire on a cold wet night is crazy. But trying to argue the point with the group which I have done has not caused change.
The biggest problem in this group is "EGO". So from this I can't control what the group does but can only control what my brigade does.
Any yes a 2 MVA in Upper Sturt if available both my appliances will be responded from my brigade , don't know for you but for a 2 lane road which travels 8563 cars over it daily seems to me to be a big risk. Especially when one SAPOL car with 1 officer will be on scene and ask for assistance in Traffic Control as he is the only patrol on in the area.
[EDIT: Fixed quoting]
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Any yes a 2 MVA in Upper Sturt if available both my appliances will be responded from my brigade , don't know for you but for a 2 lane road which travels 8563 cars over it daily seems to me to be a big risk. Especially when one SAPOL car with 1 officer will be on scene and ask for assistance in Traffic Control as he is the only patrol on in the area.
Yep! 3 Appliances (2 Fire, 1 Rescue) is sufficient for a Road Crash and isnt overkill in areas outside of Metropolitan Adelaide. Its nearly the most appropriate thing to do. As explained, the difference between Metro and country is SAPOL resourcing.
Glad we're starting to read the same page of the book :)
The biggest problem in this group is "EGO". So from this I can't control what the group does but can only control what my brigade does.
theres always going to be a element of ego around the place, everywhere....its hard to fight, but as long as you stand up for what you think is right when you think its a rediculous situation..your right and there wrong.
Group system is scheiße....its a Administrative system, not a Response system.
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You go if the pager goes, and you don't if it doesn't?... - Guess thats a good thing..
Unlike various other brigades all around the state, who respond to calls even if they haven't been called.....!
Pip
Isn't that what this thread has turned into? (And im referring to its early stages, not the latter)..
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Just as we say that Lofty group send 97 appliances to a burnoff out of control.
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Just as we say that Lofty group send 97 appliances to a burnoff out of control.
Remove the 9 and you'd be more accurate.
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When it could be done by 4 brigades. or with the ones that aren't in lofty group but are closer.
EDIT: put in the correct language
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when it could be done my 4 or the ones that aren't in lofty group but are closer
Keh? speaka englies?
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When it could be done by 4 brigades. or with the ones that aren't in lofty group but are closer.
EDIT: put in the correct language
Since we obviously decided to talk about specific examples... id love to know which brigades are closer to wilpena tce, aldgate, than aldgate, stirling & bridgewater who attended...
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Yeh that job was fine, i am making a general comment about quiet a few jobs over the past couple of years.
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if were being general then mate... then yep, im constantly frustrated.
the world can be burning down just over the other side of the hill... but nope. thats another groups area, they empty all there stations before they'll call us ;)
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Yeh that job was fine, i am making a general comment about quiet a few jobs over the past couple of years.
Don't forget, its not just about who is close, but who is close and competent!
;)
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Don't forget, its not just about who is close, but who is close and competent!
;)
Lofty group :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
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Lofty group :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
As much as it would be great to only turn out SAMFS from 20 and SACFS from Mt. Barker for everything in the hills, it just can't be so!
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if were being general then mate... then yep, im constantly frustrated.
the world can be burning down just over the other side of the hill... but nope. thats another groups area, they empty all there stations before they'll call us ;)
Can't be many group boundary brigades who don't have that particular gripe...
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Yeh that job was fine, i am making a general comment about quiet a few jobs over the past couple of years.
Don't forget, its not just about who is close, but who is close and competent!
;)
Often competency comes with practice, and it's a bit hard to practice when you're not called. Catch 22 anyone?
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Yeh that job was fine, i am making a general comment about quiet a few jobs over the past couple of years.
Don't forget, its not just about who is close, but who is close and competent!
;)
Often competency comes with practice, and it's a bit hard to practice when you're not called. Catch 22 anyone?
Exactly !!