SA Firefighter
General Discussion => SA Firefighter General => Topic started by: Mic10110 on August 30, 2011, 12:13:14 AM
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When does it go live? Who will praise and who will curse?
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When does it go live? Who will praise and who will curse?
Word on the street is the 25th of October. I'm guessing the government will praise, and everyone else will curse?
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From the Chief Officer himself definately 25th October of course unless it is delayed........AGAIN
Next Gen weather forecasting comes online on 26th October
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Dates are not set by the services, that would be coming straight from the ministers office.
Im sure there will always be those who disagree with the system and have a whinge about losing control, ie no more ALERTS calls, no more 'just going for a look' as every dispatch will be as per SOP, no more choosing who comes to back you up [unless its a specialist resource] etc...
But, it will be much better than the system we currently have. Finally CFS will have response data in the CAD.
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Holy smoke Alex are you saying we will be forced into acting like a fire service?! I wait to see how many empire builders will suddenly retire....
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Dates are not set by the services, that would be coming straight from the ministers office.
yes the minister announced 25th Oct a few weeks back. So either it will go live on the 25th and everyone will just make it work, or it will be delayed until it's actually ready. Time will tell which way it goes...
Im sure there will always be those who disagree with the system and have a whinge about losing control, ie no more ALERTS calls, no more 'just going for a look' as every dispatch will be as per SOP, no more choosing who comes to back you up [unless its a specialist resource] etc...
But, it will be much better than the system we currently have. Finally CFS will have response data in the CAD.
no doubt it will be a much better system. I think you're being a bit idealistic (hope you're right but somehow I doubt it) but again we will see...
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SAAS apparently go live on the 20th of September, and SAPOL on the 11th of November.
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Dates are not set by the services, that would be coming straight from the ministers office.
yes the minister announced 25th Oct a few weeks back. So either it will go live on the 25th and everyone will just make it work, or it will be delayed until it's actually ready. Time will tell which way it goes...
Im sure there will always be those who disagree with the system and have a whinge about losing control, ie no more ALERTS calls, no more 'just going for a look' as every dispatch will be as per SOP, no more choosing who comes to back you up [unless its a specialist resource] etc...
But, it will be much better than the system we currently have. Finally CFS will have response data in the CAD.
no doubt it will be a much better system. I think you're being a bit idealistic (hope you're right but somehow I doubt it) but again we will see...
It will be as good as the data that is entered, some brigades and groups won't cope with it as they can't just do what they like, all the responses are based on the agencies SOP's....no argument as that is what your agency has agreed to.
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Im sure there will always be those who disagree with the system and have a whinge about losing control, ie no more ALERTS calls, no more 'just going for a look' as every dispatch will be as per SOP, no more choosing who comes to back you up [unless its a specialist resource] etc...
But, it will be much better than the system we currently have. Finally CFS will have response data in the CAD.
no doubt it will be a much better system. I think you're being a bit idealistic (hope you're right but somehow I doubt it) but again we will see...
nah mate, those points are concrete and endorsed by CFS apparently. No more ALERTS to slow down responses, and no more ALERTS to give any chance to reduce responses. And as stated no more picking and choosing backup, just upgrades of alarm level.
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SAAS apparently go live on the 20th of September, and SAPOL on the 11th of November.
Will there still be a paging website or will that cease to exist?
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They are still using the same pagers, so there will always be someone out there scanning and re-broadcasting.
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Will the pager message format change at all ?
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Looks like it, here is some of the pager messages sent during training.
1929261 08:51:36 04-08-11 ,TALK2,ADL090 ADL2011 ADL202 S1 FISK, EGGY SMELL, 3RD FLOOR km) km)(Part 2 of 2)
1909562 08:51:36 04-08-11 **SACAD TEST - STATION**: *CFSRES INC0022 04/ 08/ 11 08:51 RESPOND HAZ MAT, 99 WAKEFIELD ST ADELAIDE, MAP:ADL 118 H12,(Part 1 of 2)
1909562 10:00:56 04-08-11 ADL202 ADL203 ADL204 ADL206 CMW S1 PRIME WDV243 WDV249, HCL Spill 20l km) km)(Part 2 of 2)
1909562 10:00:59 04-08-11 **SACAD TEST - STATION**: *CFSRES INC0032 04/ 08/ 11 10:00 RESPOND HAZ MAT, 234 PORT RD HINDMARSH, MAP:ADL 117 K 2, ADL090(Part 1 of 2)
1929261 11:16:33 04-08-11 ,TALK2,ADL202 GLO441, xxxxxx km) km) km)(Part 2 of 2)
1929261 11:16:35 04-08-11 **SACAD TEST**: *CFSRES INC0046 04/08/11 11:16 RESPOND STRUCTURE COMMERCIAL, 2 LORRAINE AV MITCHAM, MAP:ADL 142 P 2,(Part 1 of 2)
1909562 11:33:59 04-08-11 ADL2011 ADL2016 BPK451 CMC CPK411 OHH421, km) km) km) km) km)(Part 2 of 2)
1909562 11:34:02 04-08-11 **SACAD TEST - STATION**: *CFSRES INC0051 04/ 08/ 11 11:33 RESPOND STRUCTURE DOMESTIC, 8 SMITH AV HOVE, MAP:ADL 152 F 2,(Part 1 of 2)
If these test messages are anything to go by, it looks like the character count per message has been reduced to around 120, which will result in most messages being split over two or three pages. Also it looks as though the second and third part of the message is now sent first, so the first part of the message will be the last received.
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I believe thats being/been looked at Matty.
Response message will be very similar to current, but will include nearest cross streets.
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SAAS apparently go live on the 20th of September, and SAPOL on the 11th of November.
SACAD is here for SAAS today, some new code and now classed by priority 1,2,3 ect
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KA181 PR: 1 6 MCINTOSH RD KADINA SKD 2 J 5 *Ev:06* D0001 Crtd: 03:32 Disp: 03:32 - SAAS Unit Kadina
what is the *Ev:06* part mean. i assume d0001 is the daily job number and cal recorded times and dispatch times.
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I may be way off, but it seems that they are going to send everything to the pagers, judging on the possible daily incident number. Event number, I presume is the type of medical emergency. I wonder whether the Adelaide Uni Accident research will be on the pagers?
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doesnt look like it, there was a crash at prospect which 2 saas units were called and you couldnt tell weather it was va or not as there was no crash research after it.
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20-09-11 08:30:33 BP71 PR: 2 : 3 CAR MVA 188 MARION RD RICHMOND 129 D 3 *Ev:HCP* D0111 Crtd: 08:29 Disp: 08:30 - SAAS Unit Brooklyn park
found this
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I'm going to take a stab in the dark and suggest that the *EV:XXX* is the case type. Some of the PTS/ESS stuff that has been coming up this morning has TFR in there, so each case type now has a number allocated to it. Taking a lot of learning to read the new data!!
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doesnt look like it, there was a crash at prospect which 2 saas units were called and you couldnt tell weather it was va or not as there was no crash research after it.
Last Road Crash Research page was at 00:04 this morning SAAS told all crews at NetCall that SACAD is live
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It looks like they have dropped the CT(City callsigns as they are now Parkside 71, 81 etc
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Is every incident now put through to the pager?
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Is every incident now put through to the pager?
Some but not all still via radio.
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i also saw mitcham with call sign par50 aswell as the ex city ones.
What is the priorities now? 1-9 ?
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Wasnt Mitcham 50 one of the 11am start SPRINTS? My understanding was that Parkside is going to be a SPRINT/ECP/ex-City station, which would mean that PAR50 would be correct.
I still think it's wrong not to have crews based within the CBD. That extra 3 minutes to get into the city from Parkside could be a difference!
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Once the events are worked out then it will be easier to understand.
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I still think it's wrong not to have crews based within the CBD. That extra 3 minutes to get into the city from Parkside could be a difference!
And the three minutes to get from city to parkside?
Most of those crews spend most of there shift on the road, at hospitals, etc. Not going to make a lot of differance in my eyes.
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Wasnt Mitcham 50 one of the 11am start SPRINTS? My understanding was that Parkside is going to be a SPRINT/ECP/ex-City station, which would mean that PAR50 would be correct.
I still think it's wrong not to have crews based within the CBD. That extra 3 minutes to get into the city from Parkside could be a difference!
PAR50 is the ex Mitcham 50 so yes you are correct.
No different to when we used to run from Unley Centre all those years ago.
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No different to when we used to run from Unley Centre all those years ago.
And how bad were THOSE response times?? I used to take 4 more calls for the same job before a crew arrived off centre :)
Having said that, more crews around now and most are on the road the majority of the time, so it isnt going to be a major issue. Until some Opposition MP gets hold of it.....
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i thought the City station had just moved to North Tce....more undercover parking for up to 3 hours, nice staff to converse with while you wait (as opposed to their southern colleagues) and no pesky firies bitching about where you park :lol:
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The event codes and dispatch priority list is available on the www.sascan.net.au (http://www.sascan.net.au) website.
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The event codes and dispatch priority list is available on the www.sascan.net.au (http://www.sascan.net.au) website.
That's great, thanks. I'm still a bit confused with ESO, it seems to be used a lot for V/A's too.
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Any chance that there will be pager messages from SOT, RTL's, MedSTAR ect?
*side note: I've asked so many questions today, more out of interest.
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Something went wrong somewhere today.
MFS: *CFSRES INC054 20/09/11 17:26,RESPOND RCR,MILLCOWIE RD, CRYSTAL BROOK ,CRYSTAL BROOK MAP 0 0 0 TG074,PERSON CONFIRMED TRAPPED,CAR VERSUS FREIGHT TRAIN,CRYS19 WARN00 PPI501
CR81 PR: 2 MILCOWIE RD CRYSTAL BROOK *Ev:ESO* D0686 Crtd: 17:29 Disp: 17:54
Looking at the SAAS response message, they recieved it in their system at 17:29, but it wasn't dispatched until 17:54.
This was confirmed by the crew when they gave back a Sitrep stating that everyone else had been on scene for about half an hour before them.
Lucky the person in the car wasn't seriously injured.
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20-09-11 18:32:21 Repage:ST181 PR: 2 LONG VALLEY RD STRATHALBYN 251 H 2 *Ev:29* D0723 Crtd: 18:31 Disp: 18:32 - Adelaide Uni Road Accident Research
back up perhaps?
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Something went wrong somewhere today.
MFS: *CFSRES INC054 20/09/11 17:26,RESPOND RCR,MILLCOWIE RD, CRYSTAL BROOK ,CRYSTAL BROOK MAP 0 0 0 TG074,PERSON CONFIRMED TRAPPED,CAR VERSUS FREIGHT TRAIN,CRYS19 WARN00 PPI501
CR81 PR: 2 MILCOWIE RD CRYSTAL BROOK *Ev:ESO* D0686 Crtd: 17:29 Disp: 17:54
Looking at the SAAS response message, they recieved it in their system at 17:29, but it wasn't dispatched until 17:54.
This was confirmed by the crew when they gave back a Sitrep stating that everyone else had been on scene for about half an hour before them.
Lucky the person in the car wasn't seriously injured.
I couldn't believe my ears when they were dispatched half hour later :-o
It would appear that the Road Crash Research pages are back again
Repage:MB181 PR: 2 LONG VALLEY RD STRATHALBYN 251 H 2 *Ev:29* D0726 Crtd: 18:33 Disp: 18:32 - Adelaide Uni Road Accident Research
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I am guessing either the paging system in SAAS CAD doesn't alert them when the job isn't acknowledged, or someone just forgot to chase up that someone was actually going...
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Looks like those paging issues for the Crystal Brook job are going to have further ramifications.
Last night was reported the motorist walked away, but overnight was transferred to Adelaide with serious head injuries......
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on the news, they said an investigation was going to take place
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Yeah heard that at training tonight......
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MFS now doing the Adelaide Uni Research paging??
22-09-11 12:26:04 Repage:MFS: *CFSRES INC044 22/09/11 12:25,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,KING ST,PENNINGTON MAP 92 K 14 TG182,CNR ADDISON RD,APK361 - Adelaide Uni Road Accident Research
22-09-11 12:26:02 Repage:MFS: *CFSRES INC044 22/09/11 12:25,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,KING ST,PENNINGTON MAP 92 K 14 TG182,CNR ADDISON RD,APK361 - Adelaide Uni Road Accident Research
22-09-11 12:25:58 MFS: *CFSRES INC044 22/09/11 12:25,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,KING ST,PENNINGTON MAP 92 K 14 TG182,CNR ADDISON RD,APK361 - MFS Angle Park APK361
22-09-11 12:25:55 MFS: *CFSRES INC044 22/09/11 12:25,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,KING ST,PENNINGTON MAP 92 K 14 TG182,CNR ADDISON RD,APK361 - MFS Angle Park Station
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interesting if SAAS have dropped doing that considering they attend far more MVA's than the fire and rescue services are called to!
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interesting if SAAS have dropped doing that considering they attend far more MVA's than the fire and rescue services are called to!
SAAS and MFS both doing it.
Repage:SA81 PR: 2 MAIN NORTH RD ELIZABETH 52 A14 *Ev:ESO* D0578 Crtd: 14:53 Disp: 14:54 - Adelaide Uni Road Accident Research
Repage:MFS: *CFSRES INC057 22/09/11 13:35,RESPOND Vehicle Accident,STEBONHEATH RD,PENFIELD MAP 51 H 8 TG102,CNR WOMMA RD CAR V TRUCK,DALK19 ELZ339 - Adelaide Uni Road Accident Research
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SEEN THIS A FEW TIMES TODAY.
22-09-11 16:39:43 Repage:MC81 PR: 4 : PANEL BEATER SHOP RENDELSHAM RD MILLICENT *Ev:ESO* D0671 Crtd: 16:33 Disp: 16:39 - Adelaide Uni Road Accident Research
22-09-11 16:39:39 MC81 PR: 4 : PANEL BEATER SHOP RENDELSHAM RD MILLICENT *Ev:ESO* D0671 Crtd: 16:33 Disp: 16:39 - SAAS Unit Millicent
22-09-11 16:26:36 MFS: *CFSRES INC087 22/09/11 16:26,RESPOND COMMERCIAL FIRE,7 SERVICE RD RENDELSHAM RD,MILLICENT MAP 0 0 0 TG231,OLD PANEL BEATER,FIRE IN PARTS CLEANER BOOTH,MILL19 - CFS Millicent Reponse
22-09-11 16:26:34 MFS: *CFSRES INC087 22/09/11 16:26,RESPOND COMMERCIAL FIRE,7 SERVICE RD RENDELSHAM RD,MILLICENT MAP 0 0 0 TG231,OLD PANEL BEATER,FIRE IN PARTS CLEANER BOOTH,MILL19 - CFS Wattle Range Group Officers Response
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I think road accident research paging will soon go back to normal (ie for MVA's) however, the change in system does change a lot. Most ESO's have been V/A's, most likely that Millicent job was an error
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I think road accident research paging will soon go back to normal (ie for MVA's) however, the change in system does change a lot. Most ESO's have been V/A's, most likely that Millicent job was an error
It was actually a fire in a panel beaters workshop :wink:
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From what i see if it comes up with *Ev:ESO* or *Ev:29* on a job for saas it may automatically get sent to Adelaide Uni Road Accident Research?? doesnt matter if it is a rcr or a normal job. can anyone else input?
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Repage:WY181 PR: 2 100 MCDOUALL STUART AV WHYALLA NORRIE WYA 2 K 2 *Ev:ESO* D0869 Crtd: 19:41 Disp: 19:42 - SAAS Road Crash Research
MFS: *CFSRES INC077 23/09/11 19:38,RESPOND COMMERCIAL FIRE,100 MCDOUALL STUART AV,WHYALLA MAP 0 0 0 TG192,WESTLAND HOTEL. FIRE IN KITCHEN. DEEP FR,YER ON FIRE,WHY529 - MFS Whyalla 529 Response
I reckon the Uni guys would really love to investigate a deep fryer fire :-P
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smae with the pirie job at the smelters lol
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From what i see if it comes up with *Ev:ESO* or *Ev:29* on a job for saas it may automatically get sent to Adelaide Uni Road Accident Research?? doesnt matter if it is a rcr or a normal job. can anyone else input?
ESO means to work with MFS, CFS, SES, SAAS or SAPOL. Usually when a MVA is called in, it comes through to SAPOL or MFS (ESO) or SAAS (Ev 29). Hence the reason they now class all ESO's as MVA's.
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Does anyone know whether RTL's, MPS's ect get pager messages?
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Mind you, maybe we should just be impressed that the response was per SOP!!!
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Does anyone know whether RTL's, MPS's ect get pager messages?
They do get pager messages, but what messages do you mean? As in do they get paged every time a job happens in their region?
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I've noticed the SAAS pager messags have now taken off the Created time stamp. Some of the fall out from Crystal Brook perhaps??
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Does anyone know whether RTL's, MPS's ect get pager messages?
They do get pager messages, but what messages do you mean? As in do they get paged every time a job happens in their region?
yes
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I've noticed the SAAS pager messags have now taken off the Created time stamp. Some of the fall out from Crystal Brook perhaps??
Quite possibly, although their response was that it was straight forward operator error, and had nothing at all to do with the CAD.
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Wonder if some poor operator wil get the blame for SOT to be responded some 30 minutes after initial dispatch for the labourer who fell down the lift well at Henley Beach yesterday morning :-o
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i wouldnt be reading into that too much, quite possible they werent required till then, or any other number of reasons.
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Wonder if some poor operator wil get the blame for SOT to be responded some 30 minutes after initial dispatch for the labourer who fell down the lift well at Henley Beach yesterday morning :-o
Not a nice thing to happen on your first day at work, and suffer a work injury!
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I've noticed the SAAS pager messags have now taken off the Created time stamp. Some of the fall out from Crystal Brook perhaps??
What happened in Crystal Brook?
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I've noticed the SAAS pager messags have now taken off the Created time stamp. Some of the fall out from Crystal Brook perhaps??
What happened in Crystal Brook?
read backwards on this thread
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By the looks of it, all of the Adelaide Uni Road Accident Research paging has ceased to exist.
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Does anyone know whether RTL's, MPS's ect get pager messages?
They do get pager messages, but what messages do you mean? As in do they get paged every time a job happens in their region?
yes
Not quite sure, I know they carry two pagers, a personal one and I assume a regional one. I have seen an RTL look at a pager and comment that a station in his region had a job.
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By the looks of it, all of the Adelaide Uni Road Accident Research paging has ceased to exist.
You would hope with a CAD database now active, they would get more accurate historical data they can manipulate, than from pager messages.
Unless the pager messages were for a different purpose than historical data.
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Road crash Research pagers look like they are back again.
Just a guess, but they perhaps stopped sending them for a bit, until they sorted out the issue of apparently paging RC Research for every job that the fire service were sent to, regardless of whether it was a crash or not!
Pip
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The problem is that the term OTHER EMER (aka ESO) was for house fires and stuff SAPOL came across (as Pip said). However this term is also used on a lot of MVA's, meaning that it is hard to differentiate for the uni students whether it's a VA or a house fire. In turn meaning that OTHER EMERG was being used for MVA. I'm interested that they had these troubles with the new system, yet no worries with the old system.
ps, I'm a big fan of SACAD
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I NOTICED THIS TODAY
04-10-11 12:13:34 Repage:LN1 PR: 2 : @ELIZABETH CITY CENTRE UNK* FROBISHER RD ELIZABETH 51 P15 D0363 Disp: 12:10 Traffic / - Adelaide Uni Road Accident Research
04-10-11 12:13:30 LN1 PR: 2 : @ELIZABETH CITY CENTRE UNK* FROBISHER RD ELIZABETH 51 P15 D0363 Disp: 12:10 Traffic / - SAAS Unit LN1
04-10-11 12:12:47 Repage:G81 PR: 2 : @ELIZABETH CITY CENTRE UNK* FROBISHER RD ELIZABETH 51 P15 D0362 Disp: 12:10 Traffic / - Adelaide Uni Road Accident Research
04-10-11 12:12:43 G81 PR: 2 : @ELIZABETH CITY CENTRE UNK* FROBISHER RD ELIZABETH 51 P15 D0362 Disp: 12:10 Traffic / - SAAS Unit Gawler
04-10-11 12:10:27 Repage:PF71 PR: 2 : @ELIZABETH CITY CENTRE UNK* FROBISHER RD ELIZABETH 51 P15 D0359 Disp: 12:10 Traffic / - Adelaide Uni Road Accident Research
04-10-11 12:10:21 PF71 PR: 2 : @ELIZABETH CITY CENTRE UNK* FROBISHER RD ELIZABETH 51 P15 D0359 Disp: 12:10 Traffic / - SAAS Unit Playford
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So.. go live is just under three weeks away.
Have any groups or brigades received official direction from the CFS about new requirements for resource tracking? SACAD will require appliances statewide to book ack, mobile, arrived and clear of call. Wondering if this info has been disseminated, and if not when it will?
Perhaps something brigades should have been getting into the swing of for the last few months.
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So.. go live is just under three weeks away.
Have any groups or brigades received official direction from the CFS about new requirements for resource tracking? SACAD will require appliances statewide to book ack, mobile, arrived and clear of call. Wondering if this info has been disseminated, and if not when it will?
Perhaps something brigades should have been getting into the swing of for the last few months.
Not a cracker as yet, but what amazes me is ask a MFS officer about SACAD and they know little or nothing about it.
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I wouldn't be surprised by that.
It will make very little difference to MFS crews on the road, as they already use there MCTs to show appropriate status, they simply ask for upgrades of alarm, all dispatches are through comms and are already responded as targeted appliances [unlike simply responding an entire CFS brigade].
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nothing has reached open air in my brigade. doubt anything has yet been released by region let alone HQ...
I dont see how we can operate with changes...with even 3 weeks notice...
My Bet: Postponement again..and again... and again. A government within a government.
Anyone grabbing the BOMS system for setting up in a fire museum? lol
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we havent heard a peep down here (thats far from surprising anyway) believe our group still want us to run our current format where we book ack or mobile with comms then go to group TG for arrival, sitreps uprgrdes etc etc... why we hae to keep that sy.stem has got me as there is no benefit in doing it, i would rather us just work with comms for that and talk to group only if needed.
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Nope, haven't seen anything in my brigade - nothing at the last Group meeting a week ago either.......
Pip
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From what I have been told there will be no point opening the station or going to the local TG as to get anything done or to get further calls you have to do everything through Adelaide Fire...but I only found that out by asking
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Apparentley things are still to be finalised, with some big questions still to be asked and answered!
If you ask the same question to senior officers and staff you get different answers, but dont worry SACAD is the answer.....Im not sure what the question is though!
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So.. go live is just under three weeks away.
Have any groups or brigades received official direction from the CFS about new requirements for resource tracking? SACAD will require appliances statewide to book ack, mobile, arrived and clear of call. Wondering if this info has been disseminated, and if not when it will?
Perhaps something brigades should have been getting into the swing of for the last few months.
you're talking about planning and disseminating of information? in the CFS? you're such a joker Alex!
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05-10-11 11:23:47 SA70 PR: 4 : @RI - (SAAS) 16 TORRENS RD RIVERTON D0275 Disp: 11:23 HEALTH CAR - SAAS Unit Salisbury
What is RI - (SAAS)?
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05-10-11 11:23:47 SA70 PR: 4 : @RI - (SAAS) 16 TORRENS RD RIVERTON D0275 Disp: 11:23 HEALTH CAR - SAAS Unit Salisbury
What is RI - (SAAS)?
It would be Riverton Ambo station. Shared with the CFS at the above address.
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yes it is riverton area station (my friend works there)
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MFS: *CFSRES INC0005 07/10/11 11:30 RESPOND GRASS FIRE, MAIN RD MCLAREN VALE, MAP:ADL 207 A11,TG TALK2, == Alarm level updated to 2 == Alarm level updated to 3, AIRDESK ALDB24P BLEW24 CNOTIFY R1 KYEG42 MCLF34 MCLV24P MCLV34(Part 1 of 2) - MFS SACAD testing
CNOTIFY R1 KYEG42 MCLF34 MCLV24P MCLV34 RNGE24 RNGE34 SEA469 SEAF24 SEAF24P SELL34 WLLG28 WLLG34, , *****SACAD TEST ONLY*****(Part 2 of 2) - MFS SACAD testing
Its Getting Closer Ladies and Gentlemen :-D
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As you will notice is all appliance based now so those stick in the muds that reckon we won't talk to Adelaide Fire will find life very quite, at least responses will follow SOPs for the first time EVER (hopefully)!
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So.. go live is just under three weeks away.
Have any groups or brigades received official direction from the CFS about new requirements for resource tracking? SACAD will require appliances statewide to book ack, mobile, arrived and clear of call. Wondering if this info has been disseminated, and if not when it will?
Perhaps something brigades should have been getting into the swing of for the last few months.
Alex,
This procedure was explained last night at Gum groups pre-fire season operational briefing. Most officers in the group were present and are now aware...
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Alex,
This procedure was explained last night at Gum groups pre-fire season operational briefing. Most officers in the group were present and are now aware...
Who explained this procedure? Was it an official thing from region, or just the group being proactive about it?
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apparently the procedures have been sent to groups, be interesting to see how long it takes to filter down to brigades if at all in some instances, it will mean big changes to procedure for some groups!
Has anyone Hopefully any groups with some very irregular responses for some jobs are able to fix it before it comes online
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I would be interested to know what was explained, as it had better be spot on or the system won't work. I can see brigades still trying to do their own thing as "thats how we have always done it" and nothing will get done about it.
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Alex,
This procedure was explained last night at Gum groups pre-fire season operational briefing. Most officers in the group were present and are now aware...
Who explained this procedure? Was it an official thing from region, or just the group being proactive about it?
It was presented by one of our ROPOs, so yes it was official.
I would be interested to know what was explained, as it had better be spot on or the system won't work. I can see brigades still trying to do their own thing as "thats how we have always done it" and nothing will get done about it.
There is an official CFS presentation which was presented by the ROPO.
I agree with your statement that there are going to be issues, because there are people out there that have the "this is how we have always done it..." mentality.
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SES SHQ have issued a summary document that should be distributed to all volunteers explaining the major changes by SACAD. It will be interesting to see the four (4) status updates being communicated for each Incident to Adelaide Fire.
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Ok so I have found out its rather different to what we do now, and as Bajdas described things have changed also for SES, mainly with the rescue appliances, they must acknowledge the page, book mobile/K1, arrived/K2, available/K3 or K4 and back in station/K5.
If this doesn't happen they could initially get defaulted by not booking mobile and also if they don't book available and they are, then they don't get another job and it will go to the next rescue.
As for the CFS side of things, same as above but for ALL appliances.
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I am wondering why after learning how CAD will run radio wise why we will need to bother opening the station at all, seems a waste of time and resources. They should have just done what CFA did and take all station radios out except for group bases.
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I am wondering why after learning how CAD will run radio wise why we will need to bother opening the station at all, seems a waste of time and resources. They should have just done what CFA did and take all station radios out except for group bases.
OK, so if you take station radios out...for the larger incidents who will do logistics, incident control, planning, crew welfare, paper-war, sitreps to Group Region State, AIIMS, etc, etc....I doubt if you informed Adelaide Fire of a Sitrep they would inform Group immediately. They will record info that might flow to CRIMMSON for review later...but will that help you on the incident ground ?
Personal opinion, volunteers are going to need to review processes so they know when to open the Base for incident control. Then the Base can let Adelaide Fire know of sitreps and leave you to control the incident.
Alarms and small single incident responses, yes let Adelaide Fire do the recording.
Larger incidents you might need help in Incident management. But they wont have local knowledge that is needed in larger incident management.
Not sure if that Incident Management should come from a group base or each brigade..that will be up to the volunteers.
It will be interesting during the first storm or multi-incident event occurs how this will work when services will still be operating two different systems.
*** my personal opinion only ***
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Anything 2nd alarm and above the group base opens, making the group base role more vital than ever !
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Anyone know where to find info on SACAD is there a website at all?
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I wonder who will be the first to forget to go K5?
...... and they won't be the last! :-D
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Anyone know where to find info on SACAD is there a website at all?
If you find something, let us know!
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18:52:28 17-10-11 MAWSON INFO: SACAD LAUNCH RESCHEDULED FOR 28/11/11. OPERATIONAL BULLETIN RE SACAD TO ISSUE SHORTLY.GO. - CFS Mawson Group Info
anyone news on this. Assume it for the whole of cfs not just mawson group.
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Correct!
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Thank god, from what I have seen keeping it in the group is alive and well!!
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Thank god, from what I have seen keeping it in the group is alive and well!!
sometimes its better not to advertise your shortcomings to the wider community..lol
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18:52:28 17-10-11 MAWSON INFO: SACAD LAUNCH RESCHEDULED FOR 28/11/11. OPERATIONAL BULLETIN RE SACAD TO ISSUE SHORTLY.GO. - CFS Mawson Group
No suprise really, and as pumprescue said, closest most appropriate has been thrown out the window purely by the way they have decided to run the system. Although i doubt thats why it is delayed.
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Still haven't received any info on SACAD re procedures etc. :roll:
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IS SACAD PROGRAMMED SO THAT IF RCR OR VEHICLE ACCIDENT IS IN A PAGE IT AUTOMATICALLY GOES TO ADELAIDE UNI ROAD ACCIDENT RESEARCH??
20-10-11 11:33:38 Repage:LYNBOBH 34 P RESPONDING TO VEHICLE ACCIDENTS. LEVILLE 0417 245 128 - Adelaide Uni Road Accident Research
20-10-11 11:33:36 Repage:LYNBOBH 34 P RESPONDING TO VEHICLE ACCIDENTS. LEVILLE 0417 245 128 - Adelaide Uni Road Accident Research
20-10-11 11:33:32 LYNBOBH 34 P RESPONDING TO VEHICLE ACCIDENTS. LEVILLE 0417 245 128 - CFS Barossa Group Officers Response
20-10-11 11:33:32 LYNBOBH 34 P RESPONDING TO VEHICLE ACCIDENTS. LEVILLE 0417 245 128 - CFS Lyndoch Response
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18:52:28 17-10-11 MAWSON INFO: SACAD LAUNCH RESCHEDULED FOR 28/11/11. OPERATIONAL BULLETIN RE SACAD TO ISSUE SHORTLY.GO. - CFS Mawson Group
No suprise really, and as pumprescue said, closest most appropriate has been thrown out the window purely by the way they have decided to run the system. Although i doubt thats why it is delayed.
Some will change for the better. If task is beyond 30 mins drive from SES Unit, job to the nearest fire response.
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IS SACAD PROGRAMMED SO THAT IF RCR OR VEHICLE ACCIDENT IS IN A PAGE IT AUTOMATICALLY GOES TO ADELAIDE UNI ROAD ACCIDENT RESEARCH??
20-10-11 11:33:38 Repage:LYNBOBH 34 P RESPONDING TO VEHICLE ACCIDENTS. LEVILLE 0417 245 128 - Adelaide Uni Road Accident Research
20-10-11 11:33:36 Repage:LYNBOBH 34 P RESPONDING TO VEHICLE ACCIDENTS. LEVILLE 0417 245 128 - Adelaide Uni Road Accident Research
20-10-11 11:33:32 LYNBOBH 34 P RESPONDING TO VEHICLE ACCIDENTS. LEVILLE 0417 245 128 - CFS Barossa Group Officers Response
20-10-11 11:33:32 LYNBOBH 34 P RESPONDING TO VEHICLE ACCIDENTS. LEVILLE 0417 245 128 - CFS Lyndoch Response
It's SAAS that have setup the repage to the ARU guys. There is some difficulties in getting every MVA sent from CAD to then re-page, so they are now using a variety of key words. You will notice that RCR also sends anything with the word aircraft to them as well.
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So with word of industrial action from SAAS and the old group tribalism alive and well (we can't possibly send the nearest most appropriate rescourse because that would mean asking for the next group to help or god forbid the MFS) in the safecom version, it seems the mega millions has been wasted. So me thinks SACAD won't fix it.....
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So with word of industrial action from SAAS and the old group tribalism alive and well (we can't possibly send the nearest most appropriate rescourse because that would mean asking for the next group to help or god forbid the MFS) in the safecom version, it seems the mega millions has been wasted. So me thinks SACAD won't fix it.....
NNNOOOOOOOOOO.......Don't say that.....Don't ever say that...SACAD will fix everything....All Hail SACAD!! :-D
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Isn't today the day SACAD goes live for MFS, CFS & SES?
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Isn't today the day SACAD goes live for MFS, CFS & SES?
Yep, and politicans speak the truth without spin, and we stop referring to sports people as heroes.
:-o
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I think a simple no would have sufficed
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Isn't today the day SACAD goes live for MFS, CFS & SES?
Extended to the 28th
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thats 28th of Nov
From coac minutes is mentions some issues with that came about during testing and operational bulletin on using sacad that is in draft.
Better they fix the problems now they when live. Too many projects go live with she'll be right, we can fix that while in production.
Though the bit about getting the how to use bit before go live could be handy ;)
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thats 28th of Nov
Right in Fire Danger Season.
Why dont we wait till Feb 17th instead? You know, when we have a good chance of a major fire happening!
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Right in Fire Danger Season.
Why dont we wait till Feb 17th instead? You know, when we have a good chance of a major fire happening!
Tinme of year doesn't matter at all really. As long as the issues are ironed out prior to go-live.
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There was an email sent out on Monday from Malim Watts re issues and some valid points as to why the roll over is extended.
Better to extend and get it right than have a half baked response system working at half capacity.
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Have spent a bit more time finding out some facts, here is what I learnt
1)Every appliance must give status updates, so Ack page, mobile (but not arrived for some retarded reason) and clear of call/available on scene to run via Adelaide Fire, no exceptions - if you don't no more calls or you might be defaulted.
2) All responses will be done as per SOP's - no more Bob nipping down in the ute and you will upgrade to 1st,2nd,3rd, 4th alarm not "can I have jim and bob 24" Specialist appliances excepted.
3) Alerts will only be rung if no acknowledgment of page in 6 mins, but if you haven't booked mobile in 12 you will be defaulted.
4) Delay is for valid reasons to make sure all data is correct.
5) Group tribalism is ALIVE AND WELL !!!
6) the program itself is fantastic, but only as good as the data that WE input
7) Go live can happen at anytime, its no worse than the system we have
8) Give it a chance, and check your data through the group and region, my own needing tweeking.
Finally none of this is secret, you just have to ask.
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dont have to book arrived, have to agree with you there pump that is a tad tarded, one would think it woul dbe handy as a welfare check type of thing?
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Nope apparently not, you will do everything but arrive...strange mob we volunteer for!
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Prob since the group manages once the job is running and with sacad not being deployed to the groups, yet? prob not of much use.
it's hard enough getting through to AF during multiple incidents to ack mobile.
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there should be absolutly no need for groups DO's or bases to be involved for incidents that have not been upgraded,, as a Group officer why get out of bed or stop what you are doing for small jobs.
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Is there a sey time that it will go live or will it happen any moment
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1)Every appliance must give status updates, so Ack page, mobile (but not arrived for some retarded reason) and clear of call/available on scene to run via Adelaide Fire, no exceptions - if you don't no more calls or you might be defaulted.
I would have thought arrival is one of the most important status'. Maybe someone dosen't want a statistic on how long it takes to arrive?
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I think the CFS goons chose to do that so they can have 1 last little thing to hang onto as being under local control rather than go through comms. Your right though, keep masking the problems, although CAD will expose a lot of people, those stations with multiple appliances will have to get them on the road now rather than just mask over it with the 2nd and 3rd appliances rarely turning a wheel.
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I think the CFS goons chose to do that so they can have 1 last little thing to hang onto as being under local control rather than go through comms. Your right though, keep masking the problems, although CAD will expose a lot of people, those stations with multiple appliances will have to get them on the road now rather than just mask over it with the 2nd and 3rd appliances rarely turning a wheel.
And meanwhile the stations that can crew those second trucks can't respond them because SACAD will respond neighbouring brigades first...
The issue of arrival messages is a complicated one. Unless Adelaide Fire are willing to take comms for all incidents, (and they'd need to be properly resourced for that), local stations / group bases are still going to open for comms, and that means using a local talkgroup. You can't realistically expect trucks to switch back to the regional talkgroup to notify of their arrival, nor can you expect them to stay on the regional talkgroup until they arrive, so the only sane choice is to leave arrival notifications until Adelaide Fire can take comms for all incidents...
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SACAD is about resource tracking. Adelaide Fire don't want to know we have arrived, we have already booked mobile. Once mobile they are hardly going to task/divert an appliance to a different job. It is assumed that if you book mobile you will get to the job. Once job complete, book available so AF can re-task if necessary.
PS: I hate the word assme, but it's all I could think of to put in that sentence that would make sense :wink:
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Once mobile they are hardly going to task/divert an appliance to a different job. It is assumed that if you book mobile you will get to the job. Once job complete, book available so AF can re-task if necessary.
Ah, but if you've booked arrived, then SACAD lists you as at the location of the incident, so if you book available again and a second job occurs nearby you can be sent as the closest available resource... That's the theory anyway...
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So what is so hard about giving your status as K2?
If every other status is sent - K1 > mobile to incident, -XXX-, K3 > at incident but available to respond, K4 > mobile, K5 > at home station........ every other status has been entered?
I think someone dosen't want to have an official log of how long it takes to get to an incident?
SACAD is about resource tracking. Adelaide Fire don't want to know we have arrived, we have already booked mobile.
...... "SACAD is about resource tracking" - spot on
...... "Adelaide fire don't want to know we have arrived" - Possibly not but SACAD does (or should) ....so the resource tracking has already gone out the window!
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adelaide fire dont want or need sitreps, and how hard is it to pop up and say blah blah 24 is k2, why would u need to change to your local TG from going mobile to arriving??
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The guys I spoke to in comms said in their training it was taught that All services would be giving all status updates, then in the last week or so that changed after CFS had a meeting with their people and voted not to tell comms when they arrive....weird
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Once mobile they are hardly going to task/divert an appliance to a different job. It is assumed that if you book mobile you will get to the job. Once job complete, book available so AF can re-task if necessary.
Ah, but if you've booked arrived, then SACAD lists you as at the location of the incident, so if you book available again and a second job occurs nearby you can be sent as the closest available resource... That's the theory anyway...
SACAD already knows our location...It sent us there in the first place!
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Posted on: Today at 02:50:32 PMPosted by: mengcfs
Quote from: CFS_Firey on Today at 11:52:52 AM
Quote from: mengcfs on Today at 11:26:40 AM
Once mobile they are hardly going to task/divert an appliance to a different job. It is assumed that if you book mobile you will get to the job. Once job complete, book available so AF can re-task if necessary.
Ah, but if you've booked arrived, then SACAD lists you as at the location of the incident, so if you book available again and a second job occurs nearby you can be sent as the closest available resource... That's the theory anyway...
SACAD already knows our location...It sent us there in the first place!
You aren't getting it! SACAD does not know - WHEN YOU HAVE REACHED YOUR INCIDENT DESTINATION therefore it does not show when or most importantly if you have arrived. It shows you are going to your destination (K1), It shows when you can leave to further respond (K3), It shows you have left your destination/are mobile (K4) and it shows when you have come home (K5)
Arriving at the incident is as important as being mobile towards it or being able to respond to something else.
What I am getting at is that the system is only as good as the inputs put into it. If across the board there is a standard response and procedure to follow, then why does the CFS have to do it different to everyone if a STANDARD is trying to be met/implemented.
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there are many points of view on what SACAD is, was, should be or could be
At this stage, MFS and CFS dont use SACAD and Adelaide Fire as an Incident Control function, merely as a resource allocation and partial tracking (without AVL). As others have said, once u are on the way, Adelaide Fire and SACAD dont care when u get there, now what u are doing....only when u are finished and available for another job.
The Incident Controller or other attending appliances to your job ARE the ones who care about when u arrive (along with what u see), so it is the right decision in this case, with the way we currently run Adel Fire and SACAD, to be on a operational freq for everything after leaving the shed I believe.
Whoever said they dont need to leave Adel Fire to their local TG between rolling and arriving?....seriously?....<shakes head>.....for me its when u get all the real information. AF on a busy day is a zoo.... the least amount of time on there the better for mine....start finish, thats enough until we get an MDT
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CFS are not booking K3 at scenes.
They are only ack-ing, booking mobile [K1] and clear of call [k4/k5].
Note, before booking clear of call, you must be back in your own area, or close enough to be an effective response to it; ie, burnside 24 booking clear of call when they are still at Mt Barker would be innapropriate. As the responses in the CAD works on zones and pre-designated station response orders to those zones, not the appliances last known location.
It will not work to 'just pick the closest resource' until AVL and basic MDTs are implemented by CFS.... when that comes around i can just imagine all the fully crewed CFS appliances on 'driver training' in the CBD just waiting for a fire alarm, lmao.
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Appliance GRN radio on Regional TG Portable GRN on local talkgroup or vice versa, wow look u can talk to both.
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Hopefully SOP's will state absolutely every truck offline moment needs to be logged with AF...
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If Adelaide Fire took all operational calls regards vehicle movement, how many extra paid $$$ staff would the UFU be after in MFS ComCen....goodbye budget for anything else.
As well, you would loose local knowledge to manage the incident scene and resources.
** personal opinion only **
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You wouldn't lose anything, as no one is there now, there aren't to many comms only people left, and those that are left are getting to retirement age.
We are one of the only fire services left that still do comms through the local station, so its not a new idea, we are just slow to change and stuck in the mud.
Also Bajdas, who's to say they haven't already got the staff :wink:
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*
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You wouldn't lose anything, as no one is there now, there aren't to many comms only people left, and those that are left are getting to retirement age.
I wouldnt be so quick to make that assumption.....there are plenty in the Brigades and Groups I know of or have worked with
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I know there are plenty of ops brigades, and like the victorian set up they are vital for escalating jobs, but I am talking about the bin fire at 3am, why do we need to open the station, and why should a group duty officer need to do it either. Only reason we don't use Adelaide Fire is we talk to much !!
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I would prefer Up to 10 FTE positions per shift in Comms (Be it mixed fireys and mixed civvies), compared to some of the bad projects/money spending by SAFECOM (encompassing all three services).
Having a full allotment of trained comms staff of that amount, would mean better SLA adherence and the ability to take communications on regional talkgroups for Level 1 Incidents (Level 2: GCC/Level 3: RCC) (Just an Idea)
CFA uses radio protocols that CFS should mix with our current ones. And from random listening to VicFire channels, using the protocols by volly appliances is well done.
9 CFA Radio Procedures (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma3dVqqQYTA#ws)
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Doing some CRIIMSON training the other night, and I noticed that there is now an "arrival" option on the drop down list on the summary screen (the main one).
Now it may have always been there and I only noticed due to this current discussion, or it could be new ready for this.
If so, could be interesting, because I'm pretty sure there aren't too many brigades who have CRIIMSON trained radio operators to enter an arrival message. Unless the radio operator happens to be part of the group IMT as well.
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Doing some CRIIMSON training the other night, and I noticed that there is now an "arrival" option on the drop down list on the summary screen (the main one).
Now it may have always been there and I only noticed due to this current discussion, or it could be new ready for this.
If so, could be interesting, because I'm pretty sure there aren't too many brigades who have CRIIMSON trained radio operators to enter an arrival message. Unless the radio operator happens to be part of the group IMT as well.
Always been there. CRIIMSON does not push information to SACAD though.
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CFA uses radio protocols that CFS should mix with our current ones. And from random listening to VicFire channels, using the protocols by volly appliances is well done.
interesting....according to the clip the use of standard Pro-words helps to save time and ensures that there is no confusion when operasting with other agencies.....and yet
Acknowledge is used when every other agency in the world that talks on a radio uses Roger,
and every message is apparantly read back in its entirity by the Comms Op....negating any time saved using pro-words - so not necessary and just a waste of prescious (radio) time
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Posted on: Yesterday at 12:38:33 AMPosted by: Zippy
I would prefer Up to 10 FTE positions per shift in Comms (Be it mixed fireys and mixed civvies), compared to some of the bad projects/money spending by SAFECOM (encompassing all three services).
Having a full allotment of trained comms staff of that amount, would mean better SLA adherence and the ability to take communications on regional talkgroups for Level 1 Incidents (Level 2: GCC/Level 3: RCC) (Just an Idea)
CFA uses radio protocols that CFS should mix with our current ones. And from random listening to VicFire channels, using the protocols by volly appliances is well done.
9 CFA Radio Procedures
Don't you guys follow something like this now when you do your radio comms?
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Hmmmm... lots of negativity about group comms getting involved early & taking the response & arrival messages & passing them on to Adelaide Fire.
Personally, I think it a Good Thing, but requires Groups to be rather organised.
Picture this for Regions 1 & 2 especially...
1 x AdFire dispatcher for each regional TG.
1st alarm grassy on an FDI>50 day response is 4 appliances (4 stations)
All 4 (or more) appliances need to send acknowledge, responding & arrival messages.
They will be trying to do this at about the same time as each other.
Escalate it to 4rd alarm because the responding appliances can see Big Smoke.
Now there are 16+ appliances (plus tankers & Group cars) all simultaneously trying to acknowledge, respond and arrive on the single Regional TG to a single AdFire dispatcher...
Now, light a second fire.
Another 4+ appliances trying to do same. On the same TG.
Hellooooo... congestion. :-(
Now, what happens when, due to congested TG, some of those appliances miss their ack or resp targets & are deemed to have defaulted ?
Answer: respond some MORE appliances. ON THE SAME TG... :-o
Then, when a fire has become huge, and the Regional TG is choked solid handling major incident stuff, another job comes in - respond rubbish bin fire... now some poor bunny is trying to cut into high level incident management traffic 3 times to report ack, resp & arr.
IF they can get air-time, I predict they'll be about as welcome as pork at a Bar Mitzvah. :roll:
Methinks The Plan sucketh. Mightily.
No disputing that AdFire need to track resources.
I don't think individual appliances on the Regional TG is the best way to do it. It doesn't scale up from small incidents very well at all.
Better for Group comms to handle appliance traffic & pass messages by phone or aggregation to AdFire ( Oodnawoopwoop34, Blackhole24 and Louisville34 responding INC123. Out.) The short delay is undesirable, but better than causing AdFire comms melt-down before an incident has time to get properly disorganised.
Ideal would be some form of data transfer - pager message / email / instant message / facebook - at least until we get in-cab terminals anyway. (I think they're budgeted for sometime in the 29th century.)
As for the new response zones & lists - so far, I likes them.
We are off at one corner of our group, bordering 2 other groups.
Already we are responding with them across boundaries where previously,
response would have been kept in-group. Both ways. This is a Good Thing. :-D
cheers
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FYI SACAD DOCUMENTATION NOW FOUND ON CFS WEBSITE MEMBERS ONLY SECTION.
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FYI SACAD DOCUMENTATION NOW FOUND ON CFS WEBSITE MEMBERS ONLY SECTION.
and the caps lock key is found just above the left shift key on most keyboards :)
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I don't agree at all Alan, the part where it all falls down is the bit from initial response to the base opening, so what was going to happen, which has now been squashed, is doing the normal run of the mill stuff and then opening the base for actual going jobs.
But we will be stuck in the 19th century and be one the ONLY fire services in the country still doing it all through the local station.
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some interesting reading.
Confused by this
The Adelaide Fire operator will take the appliance “out of service”
for 60 minutes and then notify the CFS Regional Coordinator of the
default and “out of service status”.
The 60 minute timer on SACAD triggers the Adelaide Fire operator to
call the CFS Regional Coordinator to advise the appliance/s is still
out of service (and unable to respond to any other incidents) and they
will remain out of service until Adelaide Fire is advised otherwise.
Is it saying that the 60min default is not automatically reset to available and that we need to advise AF that we can be undefaulted?
Also the bit about 14's not being responded except if is the only resource or a customised response plans exist could prove interesting
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Is it saying that the 60min default is not automatically reset to available and that we need to advise AF that we can be undefaulted?
During those 60mins it will not be considered for response. At 60mins it prompts Adelaide Fire to chase you up via region. If the brigade contacts Adelaide Fire and says it is available before then it will be booked back on.
Also the bit about 14's not being responded except if is the only resource or a customised response plans exist could prove interesting
This is not quite accurate.
QRVs are actually the only appliances not reccomended for response. Light Tankers are still in response plans, but the system will give preference to reponding a heavy tanker.
ie; for an urban event the system will give preference to responding;
1/pumper
then 2/heavy tanker with pumper attribute [24p or 34p]
then 3/heavy tanker [24 or 34]
then 4/light tanker [14]
for a rual event type they system will give preference to responding;
1/heavy tanker
then 2/heavy tanker with pumper attribute
then 3/light tanker [14]
then 4/ pumper
So if a heavy tanker is available in the appropriate backup beat, it will get turned out before a light tanker. Lets remember a 14, or now a light tanker, does not actually constitute an appliance per CFS standards of response. Hope that clears it up.
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For those who can't access the CFS members only site.
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Thanks Alex.
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Wondering where the Ops Brigades, Air Ops brigade, things like the Region 2 OSV fit in to all of this.......
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Reading it, its like they started off hard then went a bit soft "you must upgrade via alarm ,but you can then ask for 3 trucks but you can't ask for them by name"
Did they not study CAD and realise it only upgrades via alarm level and to put individual trucks in there means naming them !
Also it states it is mandatory for every appliance to tell Adelaide Fire they have acknowledged, booked mobile and available. Then it says you can call Adelaide Fire on the phone and give them a list, or the Group Duty Officer can book mobile and available on your behalf. Why, just do it yourself, then Adelaide Fire can know that you are actually mobile, not the Group Duty Officer hoping that you really are.
Too soft I think.
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FYI SACAD DOCUMENTATION NOW FOUND ON CFS WEBSITE MEMBERS ONLY SECTION.
and the caps lock key is found just above the left shift key on most keyboards :)
Just wanted to get the attention of the speculators that the final document is out and now they can get back to work on there paid jobs :P
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An example of AF and Large grassy in MFS area is happening now. Interesting listening.
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At least with SACAD they can just do the upgrades and not have to worry about who, what, when and where and getting permission from 17 different people.
Having said that, the on scene performance by the red trucks sitrep and working the fire is VERY ordinary!
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Also its interesting talking to several groups, some are happy to do all comms through AF and think that's how it should be, others who are very much in the metro hills face area will just phone through every time a truck acknowledges, goes mobile and gets back in station. I did say to them you are insane I have better things to do, but you know how it is, gotta hang on to the last bastions of power and control !
Then there is the region who don't want a bar of it as its just Adelaide interfering!
What will your Group/Brigade do, mine plans to have every appliance do its own updates etc.
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Fingers crossed my local group will take on a professional approach...
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So with just a couple of days to go until they flick the big switch what is your thoughts. Hopefully by now most people should have read the briefing or attended an Ops Update where the changes were explained.
Personally I can see my own brigade becoming busier, looking at the response data and where we will be going it seems that the EMA boundaries have now been widened.
There is also some fairly interesting backup beat data that brings in appliances from 20km's away whilst trucks 5km's away are ignored, but all that stuff can be sorted out after we go live so I am not overly concerned.
We could also see an increase in default calls as the CAD picks the second appliance from a station, but it cannot be crewed, resulting in the next nearest tanker being paged. That could be fun during the FDS when we start to get a few large rural jobs and appliances being defaulted all over the place.
I think overall it will be a good thing and I am looking forward to it. Does anyone know what time it will kick off ? I know SAAS went live at 0300.
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I had a read of the SACAD Documentation and its going to be quite interesting to say the least especially once summer kicks into high gear next month when the fire season really gets rolling
There is a good chance that brigades with a low call out rate will become abit busier if incidents are close by or the closest brigade cant get a crew and are defaulted
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I think its great that we finally have a system that makes everyone accountable and follow SOP's like an ACTUAL fire brigade. I can't understand why some groups want to do all the talking for the trucks, making a lot of work for themselves.
I think the 6 and 6 default time is to long for some areas and not long enough for others. I don't agree that AF should have to ring alerts at both default times either, if you can't advise them in that time then to bad. Really isn't hard, every captain has a radio, and so does every truck, and 99.9% of people have mobile phones.
What I can see happening now that its appliance based not station based is a lot more defaulting to make up the response, and in a few years that stats will start to show up those not getting the second or third trucks out the door and we might start finding trucks not being replaced or equipment moved around, eg so and so tanker not getting out the door so its moved, or so and so 24 is due to be replaced but they can never get it out the door.
This might be a good thing or a bad thing, but it will stop the stupid scenario's of brigades that can never get the second truck out getting it replaced with a brand new one when others who get all their trucks out get stuck with old snot boxes.
Those brigades that don't manage crews and don't manage their recruiting etc might be in strife.
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were in the best place we've been for years, never fail to get a truck out, 35 members, full rcr, tonnes of drivers, 2/3 of our available ba, bit more work and we'll be even better
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I heard that the default times were six minutes for pager acknowledgement, and then ten minutes after the pager acknowledgement to get the truck on the road. So you have up to sixteen minutes to respond, and then the alerts is called.
That is if you use the full six minutes to acknowledge, i.e. if the Captain or a Group Duty Officer acknowledges the page straight away, then that starts the mobile timer and you then have ten minutes to get on the road, this applies for both appliances in the same station if you have two trucks on the same pager message. So some brigades might be getting defaulted after ten minutes, others after sixteen, it depends on how your brigade or group does the pager acknowledge.
So I think you're right PR, there will be a number of defaults for the second appliance from one station, which means brigades from further away getting a run.
I also heard that the actual cut-over will take place Monday night.
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hmmm i had heard 6 and 12, and thought those times were from time of page. Hopefullya quiet night monday night otherwise if its busy they may not cut it over???
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6 to acknowledge page then second lot of 6 to book mobile
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Hold on to your hats ladies and gentleman theres only 3 days left until the almighty SACAD comes online :mrgreen:
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hmmm i had heard 6 and 12, and thought those times were from time of page. Hopefullya quiet night monday night otherwise if its busy they may not cut it over???
It would have to be pretty drastic weather or similar for the cutover to not be done. Even if there is a major job happening i would expect it to still go ahead, may just delay an hour or two. There is a lot of pressure to get it on with that deadline.
Not sure exact time you can expect to see SACAD dispatching, multiple incident procedure will begin at some point on the night shift of 28/11 and dispatching will still be conducted by BOMS, and then with a bit of luck it should be all sorted by the early hours of the 29th.
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You might be holding onto your hat there for a while Rob, could take months for your pager to go off with a sacad response :-P :-D
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hmmm i had heard 6 and 12, and thought those times were from time of page. Hopefullya quiet night monday night otherwise if its busy they may not cut it over???
It would have to be pretty drastic weather or similar for the cutover to not be done. Even if there is a major job happening i would expect it to still go ahead, may just delay an hour or two. There is a lot of pressure to get it on with that deadline.
Not sure exact time you can expect to see SACAD dispatching, multiple incident procedure will begin at some point on the night shift of 28/11 and dispatching will still be conducted by BOMS, and then with a bit of luck it should be all sorted by the early hours of the 29th.
Sounds good Alex.
From the looks of some of the test responses there are some Fubar ones happening so i expect there to be a few grievances lodged, but give it time and it will be good i reckon
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So with just a couple of days to go until they flick the big switch what is your thoughts.
Hugely relieved.
the missus is getting on my back about a heap of stuff that needs
repairing around the house. Since SACAD will fix everything... :-D
Thanks for the implementation docco Alex. I see it permits acknowledge &
available calls to go via telephone, so that may help to ease regional TG
congestion on big/multiple incident periods (provided the phone can be
answered...) Roll on in-cab data terminals.
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It will be worse Alan, as you won't get through on the phone and get defaulted....and one's like Sturt Group and the like are putting pressure on the GO's to do a lot of ringing, but then again I guess it masks the fact that trucks really aren't getting on the road, they can just say they are !
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\\ Roll on in-cab data terminals.
Ive been peddling the idea of smartphones in all appliances.
Instant GPS for AVL [vehicle location] and whack in an app to make it receive events, generate maps and directions and send status updates... could even do voice requests.
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\\ Roll on in-cab data terminals.
Ive been peddling the idea of smartphones in all appliances.
Instant GPS for AVL [vehicle location] and whack in an app to make it receive events, generate maps and directions and send status updates... could even do voice requests.
Be alright till in a signal deadspot
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The MCT/MDT's have just as many black spots, if not more.
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so a half arsed work around instead of what should be expected in a Fire appliance?.....thought we were trying to get away from short cuts and bandaid fixes??
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\\ Roll on in-cab data terminals.
Ive been peddling the idea of smartphones in all appliances.
Instant GPS for AVL [vehicle location] and whack in an app to make it receive events, generate maps and directions and send status updates... could even do voice requests.
A system based on APRS was also mentioned to some people about 12 months ago. Got no interest from hierarchy.
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Not much gets any interest from hierarchy!
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what time is it expected to go live?
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what time is it expected to go live?
Last I heard was some time late tomorrow (Monday) night. When, will be dependent on how busy the various services are.
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we got told we have to have someone at the station between 23.00 mon night to 23.00 tues night incase the pagers dont go off, they will ring the station.
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That's a bit extreme, more than 1 way to set the pagers off!!
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In todays time of phone diversions / mobile phones, that seems to be very weird. Would have thought that would be handled at a group or even regional level if it is actually required.
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Go live is planned for midnight tonight (Tuesday morning), should take about 3 or 4 hours.
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Or not......watch this space
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Page just went out from Renmark Mets saying go live has been delayed another 48 hours.
:roll:
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Email from the SACAD implementation team this morning (Monday) advises implementation held over for 48 hours, due to concerns for weather conditions, particularly on Tuesday.
At this stage due to occur Wednesday night......
Pip
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Who cares about the weather....
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I think you will find they don't dare put it to air if there is any chance of a fire breaking out - if the SAAS experience is anything to go by.
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I think you will find they don't dare put it to air if there is any chance of a fire breaking out - if the SAAS experience is anything to go by.
Makes you wonder how much faith the cheifs have in the software and there data, when they are cancelling based on a fireban or two...
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For info from R2 HQ: SACAD transition scheduled for 00:00hrs 29/11/11 has been postponed by 48 hours and rescheduled for 00:00hrs thursday 01/12/2011. :roll:
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For info from R2 HQ: SACAD transition scheduled for 00:00hrs 29/11/11 has been postponed by 48 hours and rescheduled for 00:00hrs thursday 01/12/2011. :roll:
Whilst technically wrong (the time of 00:00 does not actually exist, it goes from 23:59 to 00:01 for 2 minutes) this is saying that the transition was meant to happen midnight monday night / tuesday morning and now pushed to midnight wednesday night / thursday morning.
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Having seen some of the efforts with data collection I to would have no faith in it.....we shall see what happens Thursday morning.
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well, it's Thursday morning, & so far the sky hasn't fallen nor the world ended.
However, my lawn still needs mowing, and the floors vacuuming.
So I therefore declare SACAD to be an abject failure.
:-D
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well, it's Thursday morning, & so far the sky hasn't fallen nor the world ended.
However, my lawn still needs mowing, and the floors vacuuming.
So I therefore declare SACAD to be an abject failure.
:-D
04:31:00 *CFSRES INC0999 01/12/11 04:31 RESPOND HOUSEHOLD DUTIES, ALAN J'S PLACE,MAP:ADL 999 Z72 ,TG 586, :AIRDESK LAWNMOWER VACUUM :
Hmm, looks like they were sent.......didnt they arrive??
:-D
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well, it's Thursday morning, & so far the sky hasn't fallen nor the world ended.
However, my lawn still needs mowing, and the floors vacuuming.
So I therefore declare SACAD to be an abject failure.
:-D
04:31:00 *CFSRES INC0999 01/12/11 04:31 RESPOND HOUSEHOLD DUTIES, ALAN J'S PLACE,MAP:ADL 999 Z72 ,TG 586, :AIRDESK LAWNMOWER VACUUM :
Hmm, looks like they were sent.......didnt they arrive??
:-D
so assuming they were sent.....no mobile call, no arrival call....but no default to the next suitable resource....SACAD still fails
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well, it's Thursday morning, & so far the sky hasn't fallen nor the world ended.
However, my lawn still needs mowing, and the floors vacuuming.
So I therefore declare SACAD to be an abject failure.
:-D
04:31:00 *CFSRES INC0999 01/12/11 04:31 RESPOND HOUSEHOLD DUTIES, ALAN J'S PLACE,MAP:ADL 999 Z72 ,TG 586, :AIRDESK LAWNMOWER VACUUM :
Hmm, looks like they were sent.......didnt they arrive??
:-D
so assuming they were sent.....no mobile call, no arrival call....but no default to the next suitable resource....SACAD still fails
I don't think a "..next suitable response.." exists to this type of incident. Some things are best left alone & walk away shaking the head. :roll:
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First clear example of how the system works if acknowledgement/mobile isnt done.
MFS: *CFSRES INC0185 01/12/11 22:22 RESPOND GRASS FIRE, PORT ST GLADSTONE,MAP:SGL 1 H11,TG 066, ==FIRE IN THE CREEK OPPOSITE 92 GLADSTONE ST :AIRDESK GLAD34 GRGT24 :
12 minutes later... MFS: *CFSRES INC0185 01/12/11 22:33 RESPOND GRASS FIRE, PORT ST GLADSTONE,MAP:SGL 1 H11,TG 066, ==FIRE IN THE CREEK OPPOSITE 92 GLADSTONE ST ==INITIAL ALARM UNITS FAIL TO ACK :AIRDESK CALT24 LAUR34 :
6 mins later... MFS: STOP FOR INC185 (all except Gladstone)
20mins later... MFS: CALT24 - STOP FOR INC185 (to Caltowie)
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The sooner folks get used to it the better!
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A bit of additional time trying to chase them up as thy had been out to multiple similar minor incidents over the past short while. Those attempts were unsuccessful so out went the default only to receive a radio MSG shortly after from Gladstone that they were on scene.
Do yourselves, your neighboring brigades and Adelaide Fire a solid and don't forget those acknowledgements and mobile messages.
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Do yourselves, your neighboring brigades and Adelaide Fire a solid and don't forget those acknowledgements and mobile messages.
Am thinking that "peer pressure" will assist with brigades complying over time..!?!?!? (i.e defaulting brigades getting dispatched but shortly after getting a stop with start to annoy (ahem, to put it politely) neighbouring brigades..!?!?!?)
Cheers
Shane
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The acknowledgement of the pager message, and the mobile message are no change to what we are (supposed) to have been doing for the last couple of years.
Perhaps SACAD is better at showing up those who haven't been complying over the last few years.......
Pip
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Just noticed it appears SES has a separate system to MFS/CFS, their incident numbers appear to be on their own (ie at 1040, SES Inc 0002 just dispatched for a building impact, yet the MFS dispatch is on 0023 for the same job.....)
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Just noticed it appears SES has a separate system to MFS/CFS, their incident numbers appear to be on their own (ie at 1040, SES Inc 0002 just dispatched for a building impact, yet the MFS dispatch is on 0023 for the same job.....)
They get a 'ses event' we get a 'fire event'......
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Just noticed it appears SES has a separate system to MFS/CFS, their incident numbers appear to be on their own (ie at 1040, SES Inc 0002 just dispatched for a building impact, yet the MFS dispatch is on 0023 for the same job.....)
They get a 'ses event' we get a 'fire event'......
Even more confusing, when SES get a RCR call then they get an MFS/CFS Inc No. but when SES roll with MFS in metro area each get a different Inc No.for the same task plus now SES do not get told which or if a MFS appliance is responded to the same job.
All very confusing with possible duplicate numbers appearing if SES get busy with storm tasks and if CFS gives assistance with storm jobs and get allocated a different number it would make it very hard to compare and cross check work done.
OldOne.
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As per SACAD a 2nd alarm grass fire gets the response of a BWC. How does this work for some groups like Western Eyre that don't have it. Do they just use the trucks they have or wait longer for a BWC
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You are able to request specific appliances, or types of appliances (I know, I did it on Saturday, and got what I asked for).
What did Western Eyre do beforehand if they needed a BWC? If they need one on the second alarm, I am sure if they ask for it, the closest one would be responded.
SACAD has some issues, which will be worked out, but I wish people would stop thinking of it as the big bad wolf that will stop the planet spinning.
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I have found it a lot quicker and easier to actually ask for a 2nd alarm etc rather than list of trucks which pretty much defeats the purpose of CAD and all those beat lists we submitted.
If there is no tanker to send then there isn't one in the beat list.
Trouble with CFS is the made the training information so wishy washy and soft that its now causing hassle. They need to say NO this is how it is, deal with it, this the data you submitted, deal with it.
The only thing I don't like is the change to the callsigns, I asked the guys at Adelaide Fire and they are in the same boat, just call the truck what it is.
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42 makes sense. Thats a bulk water carrier, heaps of them, no differences. (Gets us beyond the whole BWC9 BWC13 ordeal)
Meanwhile there are only 2 or 3 actual "28" appliances.
I'm in a brigade that has X number of appliances, but SACAD says we have one more, and that's a 28.
therefore, all excess 28's should be deleted of the system and the dual purpose appliances (normally a 34P) should be 34P tagged with hazmat capability.
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They just simply need to be their callsign with either a H or an R next to them so AF know whats what, simply really?
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Do CFS bulk water carriers have '42' written on the side of them?
Nope.... callsigns need standardising and simplification.
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so what is the preferred callsign for rescues and hazmats? Whats on the appliance or the 19 or 28 callsign?
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Do CFS bulk water carriers have '42' written on the side of them?
Nope.... callsigns need standardising and simplification.
Blurgsville BW13 or Knorksville BW26 is pretty standardised to me. This tells me where the BWC belongs to, the fact it IS a BWC, and how many litres of water it can hold. Surprisingly, our tanker call signs (Aldgate 24, Rendalsham 34) etc do the same.....
I think non sprcific Hazmat appliances (such as a 24/34 that carries the Hazmat gear for that response) should use it's normal appliance call sign when responding to non hazmat jobs, and adopt the call sign of Blarneystone Hazmat (preferably not Blarneystone, but the brigade name) when responding to a Hazmat job, as a Hazmat resource. If the AF operator does not know what a BW is, or a Hazmat, not only should they not be seconded to Comms, I would suggest they should not even be allowed to pull on a uniform at all.
I realise that this whole concept may be a bit too simple and easy to understand, so it would never be used.
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Flame trees you seem to misunderstand. Callsigns in CAD need standardization and need to fall in line with CFS call signs.
My point is the call sign in CAD should be the actual appliance callsign. There's no need for a work around of dual callsigns. If the appliance is a stand alone HAZMAT it's a 28, it its a 34p with HAZMAT then it's CAD call sign should read 34p.
Al, In the mean time it would help if people come up on radio using the call signs they are dispatched with.
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MFS: *CFSRES INC0050 07/12/11 10:59 RESPOND VEHICLE FIRE INC LPG, STURT HWY BLANCHETOWN,MAP:C/211 54,TG 205, :BLAN34 SWAN34 WAIKPUMP
truck at weigh bridge west of town
BLAN: *CFSRES: MORE CREW REQUIRED RESPOND BLANCHETOWN STN 07-12-11 11:04
MFS: *CFSRES INC0050 07/12/11 10:59 RESPOND VEHICLE FIRE INC LPG, STURT HWY BLANCHETOWN,MAP:C/211 54,TG 205, ==WAIK19 RESPOND DEFAULT, SWANREACH DID NOT ACKNOWLEDGE :WAIK19
Lets take a look at Waikerie's actual resources, as right now, its waikerie Pumper and Blanchetown 34 Mobile to the incident.
WaikeriePUMP = 2000L Water. 4 BA.
Waikerie19 = Rescue/Hazmat/BA/Lighting/etc. No Water.
Waikerie24 = 2000L Water.
Waikerie14 = 450L Water.
From that assessment, all that Waikerie19 can offer to a Vehicle fire is bums on seats + extra BA. No additional water.
Dependant on the onsite water reticulation and the scale of the fire...would it be better to send Waikerie 24 as the backup appliance to a vehicle fire instead of the 19.
Again a case of questionable input of data.
There i think needs to be a clear way of seeing which appliance carries only water, or carrys water AND specialist equipment, or only specialist equipment.
19 CFS Rescue Vehicle (Standalone Rescue)
28 CFS Hazmat Vehicle (Standalone Hazmat)
42 BWC 4000L Plus
Everything else should be (or include the above 3 in plain english terms):
Pumper
Pumper-Tanker (34P, 24P)
Tanker (34, 24)
Light Tanker (14, QRV)
E.g Strathalbyn Pumper-Tanker 1, Pumper-Tanker 2, Light Tanker
An ideal situation would be to see SACAD with 95-100% reasonable data, so that minimal rework will ever have to be done on a very shitty day.
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And then lets throw some more issues in
Logistics vehicles
The Region 1 pod
The Region 2 OSV (Command Bus) or staging trailer (this can operate stand alone from a vehicle)
The Region 3 hook truck
Region 5's command bus
State Ops have their own vehicle
I'm sure most of the Ops Brigades have their own command cars as well (I'm pretty sure Regions 1,2,5 and 6 all have some). Command cars are easy enough, but what about the specialist vehicles...where do they fit into it all?
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And then lets throw some more issues in
Logistics vehicles
The Region 1 pod
The Region 2 OSV (Command Bus) or staging trailer (this can operate stand alone from a vehicle)
The Region 3 hook truck
Region 5's command bus
State Ops have their own vehicle
I'm sure most of the Ops Brigades have their own command cars as well (I'm pretty sure Regions 1,2,5 and 6 all have some). Command cars are easy enough, but what about the specialist vehicles...where do they fit into it all?
They are all in the system and can be attached to jobs.
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MFS: *CFSRES INC0062 07/12/11 12:48 RESPOND VEHICLE FIRE INC LPG, : @HOMESTEAD - MOUNT TIMOTHY (PARRAKIE) 1274 GARRA SOUTH RD PARRAKIE,MAP:C/103 54,TG 204, ==HEADER ON FIRE MOUNT TIMOTHY PROPERTY, 1 PADDOCK BEHIND HOUSE ==(Part 1 of 2)
Alarm level updated to 3 == Alarm level updated to 2 ==2ND ALARM RESPOND AS DEFAULT FOR TINTY34 :CMBE24 JABK34 PRLL24 R3 PATTEN :(Part 2 of 2.
What's the story here.....Second alarm, third alarm???
There was a previous page sent to update to level 2. Has the operator just used the same response page and forgotten to delete the "Alarm level updated to 2"?
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Can't delete it, its automatic.
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Thaks for the info on the alarm updates.
Also, this one came to my pager as
MAP:C/102 54,TG 201, ==EAST OF THE NETHERTON EXCHANGE :AIRDESK CNPN19 NETH24 :
This is the complete message from the pager site, so obviously it wasn't sent over two pages.
MFS: *CFSRES INC0084 07/12/11 15:02 RESPOND GRASS FIRE, LADARA BORE RD NETHERTON,MAP:C/102 54,TG 201, ==EAST OF THE NETHERTON EXCHANGE :AIRDESK CNPN19 NETH24 :
An issue with my individual pager prehaps???
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It's just you haha ;)
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Interesting in remote areas, I guess these 2 are the nearest as per SACAD:
22:34:33 11-12-11 MFS: *CFSRES INC0092 11/12/11 22:34 RESPOND VEHICLE FIRE INC LPG, LOT 227 GILES ST COOBER PEDY,MAP:CPD 1 K14,TG 073, ==CAR ON FIRE NEXT TO HOUSE FROM SAPOL :COOB34 MRLA34 : -- CFS Marla Response
22:34:31 11-12-11 MFS: *CFSRES INC0092 11/12/11 22:34 RESPOND VEHICLE FIRE INC LPG, LOT 227 GILES ST COOBER PEDY,MAP:CPD 1 K14,TG 073, ==CAR ON FIRE NEXT TO HOUSE FROM SAPOL :COOB34 MRLA34 : -- CFS Coober Pedy Response
but Marla is 230km from Coober Pedy:
22:37:13 11-12-11 FROM PHIL R4 STOP FOR CALL -- CFS Marla Response
not really practical to respond both on initial page (despite SOPs).
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am guessing that this will be in the issues pile to be fixed along with the hundreds of others
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Interesting in remote areas, I guess these 2 are the nearest as per SACAD:
22:34:33 11-12-11 MFS: *CFSRES INC0092 11/12/11 22:34 RESPOND VEHICLE FIRE INC LPG, LOT 227 GILES ST COOBER PEDY,MAP:CPD 1 K14,TG 073, ==CAR ON FIRE NEXT TO HOUSE FROM SAPOL :COOB34 MRLA34 : -- CFS Marla Response
22:34:31 11-12-11 MFS: *CFSRES INC0092 11/12/11 22:34 RESPOND VEHICLE FIRE INC LPG, LOT 227 GILES ST COOBER PEDY,MAP:CPD 1 K14,TG 073, ==CAR ON FIRE NEXT TO HOUSE FROM SAPOL :COOB34 MRLA34 : -- CFS Coober Pedy Response
but Marla is 230km from Coober Pedy:
22:37:13 11-12-11 FROM PHIL R4 STOP FOR CALL -- CFS Marla Response
not really practical to respond both on initial page (despite SOPs).
But if SOP's call for it, and remember the Brigades / Groups / Regions drew up the response plans, why wouldnt the response be done. Yeah, it's 230 kms away, but I am sure if it was a semi on fire, Coober Pedy would like to know they will have some back up at some time.
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Google says 2 hours minimum before backup arrives on scene.
Coober Pedy and Roxby Downs should be treated just like Whyalla. Isolated.
2 tankers and a BWC seems a bit light on for Coober...
It'd be worth making the brigade retained, with at least 3 tankers supported by a 13000L BWC.
Any one or two truck that goes out of town for a long distance RCR. There would always be two trucks back home.
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Google says 2 hours minimum before backup arrives on scene.
Coober Pedy and Roxby Downs should be treated just like Whyalla. Isolated.
2 tankers and a BWC seems a bit light on for Coober...
It'd be worth making the brigade retained, with at least 3 tankers supported by a 13000L BWC.
Any one or two truck that goes out of town for a long distance RCR. There would always be two trucks back home.
From my understanding, Cooper Pedy is basically empty during summer. So how would they mann that many trucks ?
With the distance in SA maybe it just needs to be accepted you cant have a truck everytime.
**personal opinion only**
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It'd be worth making the brigade retained
Bhaaaaaa
Please tell my you are joking or have been at Christmas drinks.
51 calls last year 2010-2011.
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Hey, it works for Moonta, Kapunda, Peterborough, Wallaroo, Loxton etc
But no seriously would be a complete waste of time, the retained stations we have can't get crew let alone opening a new one !
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With the distance in SA maybe it just needs to be accepted you cant have a truck everytime.
yeah it's what I meant by not really practical in this case to follow the SOP. If Marla is 2hr drive + get mobile time then might as well not have them on the initial page and if Coober Pedy arrive and find they need help then call Marla, it will only add 10-15mins (guess) which isn't going to make a lot of difference I wouldn't have thought in this case.
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MFS: *CFSRES INC0040 13/12/11 14:46 RESPOND ROAD CRASH RESCUE P1 68 PRINCES HWY MENINGIE MAP:SMN 1 J 4,CALLER: ==4 CARS. OUTSIDE SWAN FARM MACHINERY :MEN29 MENG34P :
SES did not arrive at this job (as rescue). They weren't defaulted either?
3 possible scenarios;
a: They acknowledged and then did not respond.
b: Meningie CFS (34P) is in the system as a dual response rescue.
c: The system didn't work.
Your thoughts....
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MFS: *CFSRES INC0040 13/12/11 14:46 RESPOND ROAD CRASH RESCUE P1 68 PRINCES HWY MENINGIE MAP:SMN 1 J 4,CALLER: ==4 CARS. OUTSIDE SWAN FARM MACHINERY :MEN29 MENG34P :
SES did not arrive at this job (as rescue). They weren't defaulted either?
3 possible scenarios;
a: They acknowledged and then did not respond.
b: Meningie CFS (34P) is in the system as a dual response rescue.
c: The system didn't work.
Your thoughts....
I'll take option c.
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MFS: *CFSRES INC0040 13/12/11 14:46 RESPOND ROAD CRASH RESCUE P1 68 PRINCES HWY MENINGIE MAP:SMN 1 J 4,CALLER: ==4 CARS. OUTSIDE SWAN FARM MACHINERY :MEN29 MENG34P :
SES did not arrive at this job (as rescue). They weren't defaulted either?
3 possible scenarios;
a: They acknowledged and then did not respond.
b: Meningie CFS (34P) is in the system as a dual response rescue.
c: The system didn't work.
Your thoughts....
I'd say A
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Alex if it was option A then clearly Option C also occurred.
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Alex if it was option A then clearly Option C also occurred.
True.
However, option B is unlikely to have occured.
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Are ses on sacad yet?
Do they get defaulted when responded via AF? Is it an issue since intercad isn't online yet.
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Are ses on sacad yet?
Do they get defaulted when responded via AF? Is it an issue since intercad isn't online yet.
Adelaide Fire process normal 'day to day' SES calls.
It is only during a mutil-incident event (eg storm) that volunteers assist processing call receipt & dispatch.
I do not believe SES SCC has been converted to SACAD (could be wrong though).
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MFS: *CFSRES INC0040 13/12/11 14:46 RESPOND ROAD CRASH RESCUE P1 68 PRINCES HWY MENINGIE MAP:SMN 1 J 4,CALLER: ==4 CARS. OUTSIDE SWAN FARM MACHINERY :MEN29 MENG34P :
SES did not arrive at this job (as rescue). They weren't defaulted either?
3 possible scenarios;
a: They acknowledged and then did not respond.
b: Meningie CFS (34P) is in the system as a dual response rescue.
c: The system didn't work.
Your thoughts....
I thought Meningie SES handed the RCR role to CFS months ago....
Personal opinion only
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Still talk but there is no official signed off green book adjustment,like a lot of arrangments at local level, nothing is official.
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OK people.
They were paged at 1447, booked mobile at 1447 and booked clear at 1453.
Are you trying to tell us something Alex? LOL
Meningie CFS do carry rescue stowage. Rescue has not been 'handed over' to CFS -that is still in the process...hopefully rectified within weeks.
I guess it takes something bad to happen for all this to be fixed quickly. In the meantime, CFS will continue to pick up the rescue slack in the area. The system will only be truly tested if Meningie CFS cannot respond as 'rescue'.
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A few SES units seemed to self respond during todays storm event. SES SCC was open, wonder how that all went with SCC dispatching work, and if AF went to dispatch if that resource had been tasked by SCC??
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A few SES units seemed to self respond during todays storm event. SES SCC was open, wonder how that all went with SCC dispatching work, and if AF went to dispatch if that resource had been tasked by SCC??
We all know what a positive and a negative equal... When two systems collide who do we call...captain planet...
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the only SES appliances Adelaide Fire will book offline are the 91's as they are rescue, as for the rest they will keep being paged for jobs
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All will go to MFS ComCen in the future.... UFU won....bugger
ETA July 2012
In the meantime we will keep going with the dicky Access database.
** personal opinion only **
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Then we really will see CAD go into meltdown.....
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Then we really will see CAD go into meltdown.....
Not if a decent multiple incident procedure is put in place for all 3 services covered by the safecom comcen.
Almost every member that comes in contact with a GRN radio or appliance leadership should become well versed in multiple incident procedures.
You could send every priority 2 job as a pager message to a Group Duty Officer/Base for local resource assignment... that's an option that'd take the strain off Adelaide Fire.
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It will never be a SAFECOM commcen whilst all 3 services want to do the same thing 10 different ways rather than allow the commcen to run it the most efficient way.
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Isn't one of the reasons behind SACAD is to send closest resources?I have people from brigades asking me why they weren't responded when they were closer to ones responded & have the same/similar resources? They also were available
E.G:
MFS: *CFSRES INC0034 26/12/11 12:01 RESPOND STRUCTURE DOMESTIC, 4 MARSH AV GAWLER SOUTH,MAP:ADL 23 J11,TG 182, :DALK24 ELZ331 GAW359 :
Concordia & Roseworthy are both closer than Elizabeth
MFS: *CFSRES INC0142 24/12/11 21:18 RESPOND STRUCTURE DOMESTIC, 2A BRIGHT TCE GAWLER EAST,MAP:ADL 23 Q 7,TG 182, ==CHISTMAS LIGHTS ON OUTSIDE OF HOUSE SMOLDERING :DALK24 ELZ331 GAW359 : - MFS Elizabeth Turnout
A day or so before, Concordia, Roseworthy & Gawler were called to a private alarm in Gawler East, same area as above, so what's the difference?
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Same as this:
MFS: *CFSRES INC0023 26/12/11 09:01 RESPOND STRUCTURE DOMESTIC, 7 SUNSHINE PL BLAKEVIEW,MAP:ADL 42 K13,TG 102, ==SMALL FAT FIRE IN OVEN :DALK19 ELZ331 ELZ339 GAW359 :
Same job in MFS area doesnt attract as many appliances? Looking at some of the responses since sacad started similar jobs seem to attract all sorts of different responses. SACAD not the be all and end all? Either that or a lot of the data is extremely varied dependant on location.
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Lodge a written grievance to Gary Bau. In time SACAD will be good but it will take time to get all the info and responses correct in the system.
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Since SACAD came in never seen so many 2nd alarm jobs ever!
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Lodge a written grievance to Gary Bau. In time SACAD will be good but it will take time to get all the info and responses correct in the system.
I suppose its up to the individual brigade to lodge the grievance, but the response does seem a bit excessive, even if it is CFS area. But if its anything like pre-sacad issues forms, it will just fall on deaf ears.
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Just remember the responses are nothing to do with the people in Adelaide Fire, each agency has set up its own responses using brigade and group response plans, all Adelaide Fire do is hit send.
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I know it's not comms fault, but i was hoping they could shed some light on these issues
MFS: *CFSRES INC0013 27/12/11 04:56 RESPOND GRASS FIRE, ANGLE VALE RD/ANDREWS RD MUNNO PARA DOWNS,MAP:ADL 32 B 9,TG 102, ==2 TO 3METERS ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD :AIRDESK DALK24 ELZ331 GWLR34 : - MFS Elizabeth 331
Gawler River?
03:10:48 27-12-11 MFS: *CFSRES INC0010 27/12/11 03:10 RESPOND RUBBISH OR WASTE, LYNTON TCE/MARINER LANE SEAFORD,MAP:ADL 205 L 1,TG 182, ==unknown fire at this vacinity :CDN431 SEA469 SEAF24 : - MFS Christie Downs Turnout
3 appliances to a rubbish fire?
02:37:15 27-12-11 MFS: *CFSRES INC0007 27/12/11 02:36 RESPOND STRUCTURE DOMESTIC, REDBANKS RD WILLASTON,MAP:ADL 23 H 2,TG 182, == CALLER IS WAITING AT ROUNDABOUT ON DAWKINS AVE :DALK19 ELZ331 GAW359 : - MFS Gawler Turnout
Again, Roseworthy 5kms or 5 minutes away, Dalkeith & Elizabeth 10 - 20kms away. Doesn't make sense
I just hope these issues get sorted out, don't need to be over resourcing incidents & think it makes more sense in sending closest resources than whatever they decide now!
I thought SACAD was going to fix things :-P
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STRL INFO: FROM DGO 3 STOP FOR CALL.... SACAD ERROR. 27/12/2011 16:21:27 - CFS Stirling Info :roll:
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Just remember the responses are nothing to do with the people in Adelaide Fire, each agency has set up its own responses using brigade and group response plans, all Adelaide Fire do is hit send.
So who's done the responses for the EMA areas (such as those examples above)?
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Just remember the responses are nothing to do with the people in Adelaide Fire, each agency has set up its own responses using brigade and group response plans, all Adelaide Fire do is hit send.
So who's done the responses for the EMA areas (such as those examples above)?
I'm pretty sure those brigades wouldnt have put that sort of response down? I did notice some really bizarre responses early on in SACAD like CFS going to out of the ordinary places where available MFS appliances would be closer?
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STRL INFO: FROM DGO 3 STOP FOR CALL.... SACAD ERROR. 27/12/2011 16:21:27 - CFS Stirling Info :roll:
yeah well I don't think the good old stirling to stirling north (or ironbank to iron knob, myponga to mypolonga etc etc) is a sacad error as such, it happened under BOMS too, it's just straight-forward operator error.
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G.I.G.O the printouts of the response changes, borders and mutual response plans were full of errors when we saw them last year....looks like the PS data input retards didnt/couldnt interpret the information submitted
If you're waiting for it to be error free??..... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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The input retards are above group....lets just draw a discreet veil over that one...
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Interesting that this job, with all the appliances that were called, never went to second alarm or third alarm?
MFS: *CFSRES INC0037 04/01/12 12:14 RESPOND GRASS FIRE, : @WOOLUNDUNGA SEC 55 WILMINGTON RD WOOLUNDUNGA,MAP:C/435 53,TG 068, == WOOLUNDUNGA
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There probably isn't one, and as you can see there were several 14's added, which is classed as a specialist resource, and some parks trucks, which screw with upgrading.
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Should have been.......
MFS: *CFSRES INC0037 04/01/12 12:14 RESPOND GRASS FIRE, : @WOOLUNDUNGA SEC 55 WILMINGTON RD WOOLUNDUNGA,MAP:C/435 53,TG 068, == WOOLUNDUNGA == Alarm upgraded to SHITTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!
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10-01-12 14:07:57 MFS: *CFSRES INC0051 10/01/12 14:07 RESPOND FIRE ALARM, : @BLACKWOOD HOSPITAL #148/002 13 LAFFERS RD BELAIR,MAP:ADL 143 B14,TG 146, ==INPUT DESC - FIP ALARM :BELR34P BKWD24 BKWD34 GLO441 R1 HASTIE : - MFS GlenOsmond Station
i would have thought St Marys would be closer to Belair than Glen Osmond?
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It all depends what back up beat is used. Which again is NOTHING to do with Adelaide Fire.
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10-01-12 14:07:57 MFS: *CFSRES INC0051 10/01/12 14:07 RESPOND FIRE ALARM, : @BLACKWOOD HOSPITAL #148/002 13 LAFFERS RD BELAIR,MAP:ADL 143 B14,TG 146, ==INPUT DESC - FIP ALARM :BELR34P BKWD24 BKWD34 GLO441 R1 HASTIE : - MFS GlenOsmond Station
i would have thought St Marys would be closer to Belair than Glen Osmond?
Eden Hills (certainly) and Coromandel Valley (probably) closer than both of them, and nowhere near the MFS/CFS border- anyone noticing the crossover is weighted one way?? SACAD thou art a pratt - but maybe you are part of a plan
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And if we want to be a bit more pendantic, unless I missed something, Blackwood doesn't have a 34 anymore.......?
Pip
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They have a 34P.
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Add that to the 4000 issues forms existant...
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CFS are constantly updating unit call signs so hopefully that should be fixed soon... Same issue in a number of areas.
Re the hospital alarm it boils down to the size of the ESZs being inappropriate and an EMA plan being put on for an area that never use to be EMA. Glen osmond have been to a number of jobs uP there since SACAD started.
Personally I'd like to know why the regional duty officer needs to know about fire alarms.
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With regards to the regional duty officer thing could it be because of the number off appliances tagged on the response therefore it thinks its a 2nd alarm job?
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With the regional duty officer and fire alarms that might be because it had 2 alarm on the page.
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Yeah pretty sure its triggered by the number of appliances...
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MFS: *CFSRES INC0062 12/01/12 17:53 RESPOND GRASS FIRE, STUART HWY NO SUBURB,,TG 073, ==RING COOBER PEDY SAPOL,86725056,120 KM STH,NEAR MIRACARDA TWIN STATION :AIRDESK COOB19 MRLA34 : - CFS Marla Response
MFS:TAKE A STOP FOR CALL 062 ,GLENDAMBO WILL BE RESPONDED INSTEAD - CFS Marla Response
MFS: *CFSRES INC0062 12/01/12 17:53 RESPOND GRASS FIRE, STUART HWY NO SUBURB,,TG 073, ==RING COOBER PEDY SAPOL,86725056,120 KM STH,NEAR MIRACARDA TWIN STATION :COOB19 GLAD34 : CFS Gladstone Response
MFS: STOP FOR CALL - CFS Gladstone Response
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The system will never work, it cant, they are all screwed for thinking it wiil. The whole state cannot run the same way there are so many different areas that need special thought. Sacad is a huge backwards step for the country fire service. We need the old alerts system where the brigade took the alarm call and SOC assisted with the response. Local uknowledge and a spot on response every time. These clowns are taking the decision making away from the locals and f**k**g it up completely.
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The system will never work, it cant, they are all screwed for thinking it wiil. The whole state cannot run the same way there are so many different areas that need special thought. Sacad is a huge backwards step for the country fire service. We need the old alerts system where the brigade took the alarm call and SOC assisted with the response. Local uknowledge and a spot on response every time. These clowns are taking the decision making away from the locals and f**k**g it up completely.
Seems to be working pretty alright I woulda thought...
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One thing's for sure, we have never seen so many 2nd, 3rd or even 4th alarms in such a short time.
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One thing's for sure, we have never seen so many 2nd, 3rd or even 4th alarms in such a short time.
The responses have always been greater alarms, CFS has just never labelled them as such.
It makes it extremely easy for units to just pop up on radio and say "transmit second alarm" much better than the old system of listing off brigades.
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I'm not sure who programmed what into SACAD but if you ask me, some of the teething issues might require some wisdom teeth being removed.
Of late, I have seen some rather interesting appliance/station responses and movements to firecalls!
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The system will never work, it cant, they are all screwed for thinking it wiil. The whole state cannot run the same way there are so many different areas that need special thought. Sacad is a huge backwards step for the country fire service. We need the old alerts system where the brigade took the alarm call and SOC assisted with the response. Local uknowledge and a spot on response every time. These clowns are taking the decision making away from the locals and f**k**g it up completely.
Yeah because it worked heaps well before, just need to tweak some responses and get the boffins to listen and adjust things.
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I'm not sure who programmed what into SACAD but if you ask me, some of the teething issues might require some wisdom teeth being removed.
Of late, I have seen some rather interesting appliance/station responses and movements to firecalls!
Depends which agency you are talking about.
For CFS though, it starts with the SOPs which most people seem unfamiliar with and station sequences and response zones were signed off on by groups, regions and state.
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Posted on: Today at 09:58:43 AMPosted by: Alex
Quote from: flyonthewall on Today at 08:41:39 AM
I'm not sure who programmed what into SACAD but if you ask me, some of the teething issues might require some wisdom teeth being removed.
Of late, I have seen some rather interesting appliance/station responses and movements to firecalls!
Depends which agency you are talking about.
For CFS though, it starts with the SOPs which most people seem unfamiliar with and station sequences and response zones were signed off on by groups, regions and state.
I am talking about both agencies, but mainly,
... CFS getting responded to calls well within MFS area prior to local MFS station.
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Where is that happening?
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Perhaps cfs are the closest resource because the local station is tied up at another call?
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Posted on: Today at 11:16:43 AMPosted by: Alan (Big Al)
Perhaps cfs are the closest resource because the local station is tied up at another call?
No, the MFS truck was sitting in station.
.......Ask me how I know.
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SACAD seems to be working alright although i can pinpoint only 1 issue without blowing it out of proportion
1 and only issue: Brigades 10 or more minutes away being dispatched to an incident when there are closer appliances like just down the road or 3-5 minutes away
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Depends how the beats have been set up, the areas seem to be too big.
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SACAD seems to be working alright although i can pinpoint only 1 issue without blowing it out of proportion
1 and only issue: Brigades 10 or more minutes away being dispatched to an incident when there are closer appliances like just down the road or 3-5 minutes away
Then Put in the paperwork to change the ESZ size/shape and station sequence.
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Posted on: Today at 11:16:43 AMPosted by: Alan (Big Al)
Perhaps cfs are the closest resource because the local station is tied up at another call?
No, the MFS truck was sitting in station.
.......Ask me how I know.
How Do........ Nope sorry dont really care all that much to want to know.
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lol, i must say, i like the sacad countdown tab now
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Posted by: Alan (Big Al)
Quote from: flyonthewall on Today at 11:39:57 AM
Quote
Posted on: Today at 11:16:43 AMPosted by: Alan (Big Al)
Perhaps cfs are the closest resource because the local station is tied up at another call?
No, the MFS truck was sitting in station.
.......Ask me how I know.
How Do........ Nope sorry dont really care all that much to want to know.
Yeah, Yeah .... whatever :-P
Ironic that the actual CFS appliance responded wasn't actually from the closest CFS station to the incident.
Along with the appliances that were responded (from MFS) there were another 2 CFS appliances (all in urban fringe areas ie. BA qualified operators) that could have been sent that were much closer.
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Clearly banging on about it here isn't going to get you anywhere! Report it and try to get it fixed for next time :wink:
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Posted on: Yesterday at 09:35:09 PMPosted by: vandog
Clearly banging on about it here isn't going to get you anywhere! Report it and try to get it fixed for next time
Already in the process....
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The system will never work, it cant, they are all screwed for thinking it wiil. The whole state cannot run the same way there are so many different areas that need special thought. Sacad is a huge backwards step for the country fire service. We need the old alerts system where the brigade took the alarm call and SOC assisted with the response. Local uknowledge and a spot on response every time. These clowns are taking the decision making away from the locals and f**k**g it up completely.
Attitudes like this are the exact problem.
The locals have f**ked it up plenty of times all on their lonesome, so dont try and blame SACAD now. Alerts only worked in some location, and only some of the times. I can recall seeing more than 1 job paged out by AF with the notation of no answer on Alerts.
SOC was gone a long time ago, so perhaps move out of the dinosaur thinking, and accept we are actually the CFS, a state run organisation, and not the local cowboy run EFS. Big hint, look at the signs on the doors.
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I'm just interested (this is more on the SAAS side of SACAD) will the Adelaide Uni Road Accident Research pagers resume or does that cause to many issues?
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The Road crash research pagers are still coming out - on both ambo & Adelaide fire pagers. But it would appear with ambo pager messages, that it depends on what the tag at the end of the message says, as to whether a Road Crash Rescue page comes out....and results in jobs that are not road crashes being notified......
Pip
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Are you sure, they must be displayed privately because not seen them displayed over the urgmsg.net site in ages. Thanks anyway
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Are you sure, they must be displayed privately because not seen them displayed over the urgmsg.net site in ages. Thanks anyway
You mean these?
Repage:CD181 PR: 2 - EYRE HWY YALATA D0596 Disp: 18:04 OTHER EMERG - SAAS Road Crash Research
Depends which site you look at as to what appears on it.
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What you see on various websites is not every pager message that comes out..... it all depends on the filter that has been set up by the person running the site.....
Pip
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May I ask what website that was safireservice? Cheers
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The SAAS research pages are displayed on this feed:
http://paging1.sacfs.org/public.php (http://paging1.sacfs.org/public.php)
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Thanks Pip, safireservice and fire000, much appreciated.
:-D
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**SACAD TEST**MFS: *CFSRES INC0098 23/01/12 08:48 RESPOND OPEN DOORS ALARM LEVEL 1 : STATION 4 0 MAP:C/583 54,TG 068, : : *****SACAD TEST ONLY*****
Seems like they are making some progress with the ability to open doors, and the Alarm Level function.
However they still can't get it right, 1ST ALARM :P
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Im sure there will always be those who disagree with the system and have a whinge about losing control, ie no more ALERTS calls, no more 'just going for a look' as every dispatch will be as per SOP, no more choosing who comes to back you up [unless its a specialist resource] etc...
But, it will be much better than the system we currently have. Finally CFS will have response data in the CAD.
no doubt it will be a much better system. I think you're being a bit idealistic (hope you're right but somehow I doubt it) but again we will see...
it's been over 2 months now since SACAD went live, has it delivered as promised?
from the AF comms point of view have ALERTS calls changed?
personally I don't see initial responses that much different than before (ignoring teething problems and things like the dopey crap in pager messages that needs to be fixed, eg. remove all that Alarm level stuff and just show the latest). But something it hasn't fixed is enforcing the "closest most appropriate" thing, I still see some groups continue to respond their entire group (listing brigades by name) before any closer neighbours.
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Im sure there will always be those who disagree with the system and have a whinge about losing control, ie no more ALERTS calls, no more 'just going for a look' as every dispatch will be as per SOP, no more choosing who comes to back you up [unless its a specialist resource] etc...
But, it will be much better than the system we currently have. Finally CFS will have response data in the CAD.
no doubt it will be a much better system. I think you're being a bit idealistic (hope you're right but somehow I doubt it) but again we will see...
it's been over 2 months now since SACAD went live, has it delivered as promised?
from the AF comms point of view have ALERTS calls changed?
personally I don't see initial responses that much different than before (ignoring teething problems and things like the dopey crap in pager messages that needs to be fixed, eg. remove all that Alarm level stuff and just show the latest). But something it hasn't fixed is enforcing the "closest most appropriate" thing, I still see some groups continue to respond their entire group (listing brigades by name) before any closer neighbours.
BUT...is that a SACAD issue, or groups not playing by the rules and doing their own thing?? I think more the latter than a SACAD issue.
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Definately is a culture thing, and needs to be dismantled by staff.
Starting with GOMPS, they should be removed, and replaced with Beat/ERZ Response plans (Containing data from sacad that is appropriate resource based + extra stuff that is normally seen in todays GOMPS)....Why you say? Group response boundaries are null and void now. Group officers are now pretty much assisting other groups officers when jobs get big (aside from imt/strike teams)... Groups exist for administrative purposes only.
GCC's are about the only meaningful representative physical component of a group. If a job lands in any of the associated beats, and it escalates..bam the job is run from the GCC.
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CAD program works fine, data in it is slightly dodgy, and you will never get rid of the keep it in the group mentality. One big thing it is exposing is how poorly staffed the CFS is with volunteers. So many defaults, I wouldn't be surprised if in the next few years we start to see trucks being taken off brigades, or large appliances replaced with 14's or QRV's. No point having all these trucks if we can't crew them.
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CAD program works fine, data in it is slightly dodgy, and you will never get rid of the keep it in the group mentality. One big thing it is exposing is how poorly staffed the CFS is with volunteers. So many defaults, I wouldn't be surprised if in the next few years we start to see trucks being taken off brigades, or large appliances replaced with 14's or QRV's. No point having all these trucks if we can't crew them.
actually, trucks are allocated on the basis of risk vs assets (not perfectly, but its not too bad on average) - NOT on the number of people you have sitting in the station
You can always backfill with people if you have some spare seats. I'd much rather have 3 people in my truck and be used appropriately until we get a 4th, than perpetually sit 3 abreast in my next to useless QAV, waiting for a real appliance to turn up
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I am aware of why and how trucks are allocated, but what about if you only ever get 3 full stop, why do you need the second truck, oh look we have risk, we have trucks, but no one to man them and haven't for years!!! Yeah good way to run the service....
I have solid written facts that show that despite recruitment campaigns etc that several brigades still aren't getting more than 1 truck out the door with 2 or 3 people. A volunteer of the highest rank told me recently that he knows that but that the trucks in his group that collect dust all year are there for the big one and he can get crews from the city within 30 mins. Well that's ok then isn't it...we argue about lack of funding but waste the money we have....
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02-02-12 14:42:03 Mundoo Info: As directed by the R1 Commander we are NOT to use K-Codes under any circumstances. Please use correct GRN communication proceedures. Mundoo Group. - CFS Mundoo Group Info
Still waiting for a valid reason (except "its procedure") as to why using codes is a bad idea. They are very easy to learn, and use very intermittently.
Seems like region are promoting lengthy voice transmission.
I know the default answer is, when they retire, but when can we just become one service with MFS...
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02-02-12 14:42:03 Mundoo Info: As directed by the R1 Commander we are NOT to use K-Codes under any circumstances. Please use correct GRN communication proceedures. Mundoo Group. - CFS Mundoo Group Info
Still waiting for a valid reason (except "its procedure") as to why using codes is a bad idea. They are very easy to learn, and use very intermittently.
Seems like region are promoting lengthy voice transmission.
I know the default answer is, when they retire, but when can we just become one service with MFS...
because we cant get plain language right most of the time....god knows what it would look like if we asked some people to use codes.
Honestly, the K codes are crap anyway and an anachronism of the 50s/60s. If you think MFS comms procedures saves time, you arent listening to the lengthy alarm messages I do.
Want a solution.....3 simple letters (and a word)..... (Quality) MDT - not the version the MFS have that most taxi companies rejected. Save building 1 MFS and 2 CFS trucks each year for the next 5 and spend the $$ on quality comms outfits and be done with it.
negat K.....ok?
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Personally i think region must be getting pretty bored up there to be whining about appliances using K-Codes and calling their appliances 19 or pump19. Case in point one brigade the other day calling their appliance 24P instead of 19. Adelaide Fire than having to spend the next minute clarifying if that appliance was actually a 19 or 24P. Why not just leave it be until its fixed in CAD then directed to all brigades by STATE as to what their appliance callsign is.
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Because region don't worry about important things as they have knowledge on those issues.
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i think you may find that Regions are getting it dropped down on them to enforce this stuff....and as we know, the brown smelly stuff rolls downhill. I doubt its a personal crusade of any one particular Regional Commander.
It may be one of the straws that is weighing down the camel, that I have referred to in another post
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So how come no other region is bothering with it?
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Cos there busy puttin the wet stuff on the hot stuff.
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So how come no other region is bothering with it?
are you sure they are not?....or are they just doing it a different way?
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CFS micro managing the small issues and ignoring the big issues since 1976...,
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MT has it in one.... CAD was always going to be a pain without MDT's.
As for K codes, at least the CFS is giving clear direction. SES has been told they can use either (for RCR response), creating a giant mush of differing process across the state.
I believe there has been a lot of discussion at by the group officers about some of the issues CAD has created. Including appliance callsigns and response data.
It sounds like a few changes/trials may be happening soon to to help impove things. The one's im aware of are:
- resource depletion exemptions (allowing 2 trucks from one station to be responded)
- Callsigns shall be as marked on the vehicles. A '_R' or '_H' (or something like that) might be added to define the required function.
There are others apparently but we have not been made aware of them.
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They need to add more beats, we went from 12 to 5, if they won't go to street network than that might help a lot, I don't agree about removing no depletion, should have left it and those that can get 2 trucks out can get it removed. Then again it will just highlight the issue more and cause a lot of defaulting, CFS might actually take note when AF advise them if all the trucks out of service through lack if crew.
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They need to add more beats, we went from 12 to 5, if they won't go to street network than that might help a lot, I don't agree about removing no depletion, should have left it and those that can get 2 trucks out can get it removed. Then again it will just highlight the issue more and cause a lot of defaulting, CFS might actually take note when AF advise them if all the trucks out of service through lack if crew.
more clarity..... you've reminded me of a few things that were said!
- a trial of street network (I think it will be in the test database for comparison)
- No depletion will be set by default, request for exemptions will be allowed.
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Sooo how many Brigades are responding a different appliance to a job than the one on the page from A fire??
I just witnessed a brigade have their 24 responded and rolled out the door in the 34P :roll:
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Sooo how many Brigades are responding a different appliance to a job than the one on the page from A fire??
I just witnessed a brigade have their 24 responded and rolled out the door in the 34P :roll:
We had adelaide fire tell our 14 to stand down even after it was requested through AF by the captain :D
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You can respond any appliance out of your brigade that the OIC deem neccessary to a fire, as i believe CFS went with a call rotation for appliances for jobs, hence one grass fire job may pull our 34 but very next call it will pull our 19 (please someone correct me if i am wrong) so we quite often have responded our 34 to calls that only our 19 have been tagged for. As for why they did this i have no idea??
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pretty sure that we will always take the appropriate appliance to a job regardless of what some tosspot computer program says. If the system cant cope with that..... best we start looking for another system
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^Like^
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Again, nothing wrong with the system, just the data put into it....and Al your right, CFS chose that...
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All fair and valid points, but when this brigade rolls it's 34p with RCR gear on it instead of the paged 24 doesn't it technically render the rescue gear offline. Therefore SACAD will respond the next closest RCR appliance if there is a job inside that RCR appliance beat?
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All fair and valid points, but when this brigade rolls it's 34p with RCR gear on it instead of the paged 24 doesn't it technically render the rescue gear offline. Therefore SACAD will respond the next closest RCR appliance if there is a job inside that RCR appliance beat?
Yep bang on.
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why would the means of carrying the equipment render the equipment offline? So long as it gets all the equipment to the job safely, can complete the task appropriately and perform to the same standard who gives a rats toss what or which of the designed for the task CFS vehicles is used (remembering there are several Brigades that use a 34P as their primary RCR vehicle)
This is what happens when we concentrate on names, numbers, callsigns, units, resources blah blah blah instead of "the service we provide". The only question that needs to be asked is "Is it an appropriate vehicle to be used for this response" and unless their 34P is unique in the fleet, it is. If their 24 was down for a repair or maintenance and because of that stupid SACAD responds another Brigade that is 10s of kms away, then again.....the system is broke. It's a digital solution (1 or 0, black or white) to an analogue problem.
Sounds like it's more a case of trying to point score against a neighboring Brigade......THIS is one of the bigger issues in the CFS today IMNSHO
Not sure I've heard anything sillier on here for a while
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Not at all just happened to be in the town when they turned out and was curious as to where they were off to! I think you missed the point mr Teddy!! My point being they were turning out to a grass fire and took their "19" appliance which in SACAD than took their RCR gear offline! When SACAD was explained to us we were told to read ur pager carefully and respond the appliance listed....just because you don't agree doesn't make it stupid!!
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why would the means of carrying the equipment render the equipment offline? So long as it gets all the equipment to the job safely, can complete the task appropriately and perform to the same standard who gives a rats toss what or which of the designed for the task CFS vehicles is used (remembering there are several Brigades that use a 34P as their primary RCR vehicle)
This is what happens when we concentrate on names, numbers, callsigns, units, resources blah blah blah instead of "the service we provide". The only question that needs to be asked is "Is it an appropriate vehicle to be used for this response" and unless their 34P is unique in the fleet, it is. If their 24 was down for a repair or maintenance and because of that stupid SACAD responds another Brigade that is 10s of kms away, then again.....the system is broke. It's a digital solution (1 or 0, black or white) to an analogue problem.
Sounds like it's more a case of trying to point score against a neighboring Brigade......THIS is one of the bigger issues in the CFS today IMNSHO
Not sure I've heard anything sillier on here for a while
spoken like someone who has never had to try and manage resources frm an IMT perspective. Also the whole reason SACAD has so many issues...too many brigades / groups ignoring the agreed rules and still just doing their own thing. Until that stops we will never lose the Dad's Army image.
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Couldn't agree more flame trees
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We were advised that QRV's & 14's would not be counted as resources under SACAD unless the GOMP had been submitted, and incorporated into the SACAD data.
I was advised that had occurred for my Group...but alas, the wrong appliance is responded under SACAD to particular incidents - in the case of my area, it is often more appropriate for a QRV or 14 to be responded in the first instance, to a reported rural fire (as per the agreed GOMP with our Group)
So while brigades need to do the right thing, and follow procedures, the data has not been correctly updated in SACAD - meaning SACAD gives you one version of events, which is completely opposite to what the Group has agreed (and most often what is the sensible, and most appropriate thing to do in the circumstances!)
Pip
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spoken like someone who has never had to try and manage resources frm an IMT perspective.
The day IMT management becomes the standard by which we manage ourselves is the day we can close the sheds....
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I think you missed the point mr Teddy!! My point being they were turning out to a grass fire and took their "19" appliance which in SACAD than took their RCR gear offline!
yes I did miss your point, I concede that....because u didnt make it (no mention of the 34P to a grassfire in the original)....yes, taking your RCR appliance and equipment to a grassfire when u have a 24 in the shed would, on the surface of it, appear silly.
I stand by the remainder of my points
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Until that stops we will never lose the Dad's Army image.
one of the things that makes me cringe at campaign fires is having interstate teams experience our IMTs.....Dad's Army has nothing on them....anachronistic and out of touch - just an embarrassment. Very few of them are worth the cost of the toner on the mountains of paperwork they produce. One of the tasks for our better career staff should be all IMT functions after t+2 hrs (note that would require a change in recruitment). If IMT is as critical as people seem to think they are (and my jury is out on that), then lets get one good one and train them properly, and manage them appropriately.
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There seems to be a breakdown between brigades and Adelaide Fire....gee that wouldn't be the CFS paid staff....noooo couldn't be!?
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Why is it before SACAD came online somne groups were given an operational update evening by an RO which included all GP's DGO's Capt's Lt's and Snr's yet other groups were not given this... One would think that if your are going to do this you do it properly and give your little presentation to all groups not just heres the book read it
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How about just following the system put in place and then lodging the grieviances through the appropriate channels to rectify or adjust the necessary requirements and until then, just do what is asked.
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Because as per usual even our regional staff are making up rules as they go, if they can't get it right then how are we supposed to!
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We were told that you can now name the appliances you wish to be responded again, instead of making everything a second alarm when you only want one extra appliance.
Has this info made it's way to the AF operators PR ?
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See I think u shouldn't be able to name the appliances u want it should just be the number of appliances u require otherwise it will just breed old habits of some groups responding only their own appliances instead of closer ones.
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Totally agree with Big Al. Has there ever been the thought of trialing the CFA "Make" system???
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Posted on: Today at 12:41:19 PMPosted by: mattb
We were told that you can now name the appliances you wish to be responded again, instead of making everything a second alarm when you only want one extra appliance.
Has this info made it's way to the AF operators PR ?
....Why do the AF operators need to know this for? If you need a second truck , why can't you just ask for one? The only reason you would need to ask for a particular truck would be for specialist purposes, wouldn't it? Does it really matter who turns up otherwise?
...... Me thinks that each brigade has been doing it's own thing for years and now everyone is being put on the same page, it's a bit difficult to change so there's some pants poo'ing going on!
Me also thinks some of you guys are making it a bit more difficult than it really is.
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because fly...the way it has been working to get an extra appliance to help with traffic control at a scene, the system makes it a Second Alarm and that usually gives you 2 appliances, not always what you want or need.
It might be that the road that the closest response will be coming down is blocked for 2 or 3 Kms, and you actually want the traffic control on the other side of the incident anyway, so the Brigade 2nd or 3rd closest is BEST situated to respond to what you need for the Incident.
Closest, like biggest, is not always best
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Call the police then :-P
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Call the police then :-P
hahahaha....you are one funny farker....lol :wink:
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Posted on: Today at 06:49:32 AMPosted by: misterteddy
because fly...the way it has been working to get an extra appliance to help with traffic control at a scene, the system makes it a Second Alarm and that usually gives you 2 appliances, not always what you want or need.
It might be that the road that the closest response will be coming down is blocked for 2 or 3 Kms, and you actually want the traffic control on the other side of the incident anyway, so the Brigade 2nd or 3rd closest is BEST situated to respond to what you need for the Incident.
Closest, like biggest, is not always best
"Adelaide fire we require another appliance to respond for traffic control at XXXX. Can you respond XXXX and get them to talk to me on XXXXX"
Comms should be doing what you ask for. The system should not be making decisions if you have otherwise asked.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
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If a single appliance is required for a specific role this can be done.
It's the idiots coming up on air for grass, house etc fires and listing a whole bunch of appliances that is being refused. This is where alarm levels are to be used.
Matt, simple answer is no.
If brigades ESZs and station preference lists are wrong then change them, don't try to change the way the system is run.
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yeah....so don't you blokes on the run doing the job try and change the admin system will you....coz thats just not on
Dog this is Tail.....wag, out
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AGAIN nothing wrong with system, just the data in it, fix that and it will work.
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AGAIN nothing wrong with system, just the data in it, fix that and it will work.
Getting it fixed is a problem in itself.
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There is your answer
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Our example was a grass fire where we needed one more appliance. We called AF on the phone and asked them to respond one more Heavy Tanker, operator said no you can't have one, you have to have a full second alarm (two trucks + BWC). We said no - we don't need all that just one truck.
After some discussion the operator still wouldn't send one truck, so we spoke with the Comm's Officer, who said he would help us out and just turn out one truck this time, but he had to call it a 'specialist resource' to do it.
Not exactly a speedy and efficient system if you want one extra vehicle.
In future we will just push the button on our Alpha decoder to turn ou the next appliance - at least we know we can get the page sent immediately without having to jump through hoops.
I heard an MFS officer have a similar argument on 150 one night. He asked for one truck and got told no, you will get a second alarm. The argument went on for a bit until he said ok - you send the second alarm, now put a stop on all the other trucks and just keep one appliance coming.
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They are only doing what they are taught, might be nice if CFS management weren't such a bunch of clowns and made up rules as they went but not pass them on.
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How hard is all of this?
Can the CFS grow up and become a real fire service? Lets hope so. Lets use the Alarm Response SOP like we are meant to. If you don't need the resources then just put a stop on them. If you need a specific specialist resource, just call for it. It's not hard.
If people are open and embrace the new system, rather than just trying to smash the old square peg in the new round hole, we might actually move forward. Anyone remember all the crying and sob stories about the wrong trucks being responded to calls in a certain brigades area and people wanting SACAD to fix the issue? Now SACAD IS fixing the issue and consequently it's opened up a number of large glaring holes in people's perfect little empires and people don't like it.
Grow up, and get with the times.
1) If you have a grievance, as has been said before, LODGE THE FORMS. Of course there will be teething problems.
2) If you're trying to do something the "good old way" and it's not working - LEARN how to operate under the new system before you whinge about it. If it's still not working as intended, see point 1.
3) Yes, CFS shot themselves in the foot and are continuing to shoot themselves in the feet and legs by feeding everybody different information. Once the hierarchy sort that mess out, and people put in their grievance forms, we might actually see SACAD working as intended.
4) It's not hard.
Totally agree with Big Al. Has there ever been the thought of trialing the CFA "Make" system???
Have you thought about working for SACFS HQ? Yep, lets trial an outdated system that is inferior in every way to the Greater Alarm Response Procedure - Sounds like you're perfect HQ material ;)
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Well said Mr No's.
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I get the feeling these problems are mostly effecting region 1 and part region 2 as the brigades are soooo close. Doesn't seem to be a problem as the distances to respond get greater as the second alarm response is what is required anyway.
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How hard is all of this?
Can the CFS grow up and become a real fire service? Lets hope so. Lets use the Alarm Response SOP like we are meant to. If you don't need the resources then just put a stop on them. If you need a specific specialist resource, just call for it. It's not hard.
If people are open and embrace the new system, rather than just trying to smash the old square peg in the new round hole, we might actually move forward. Anyone remember all the crying and sob stories about the wrong trucks being responded to calls in a certain brigades area and people wanting SACAD to fix the issue? Now SACAD IS fixing the issue and consequently it's opened up a number of large glaring holes in people's perfect little empires and people don't like it.
Grow up, and get with the times.
1) If you have a grievance, as has been said before, LODGE THE FORMS. Of course there will be teething problems.
2) If you're trying to do something the "good old way" and it's not working - LEARN how to operate under the new system before you whinge about it. If it's still not working as intended, see point 1.
3) Yes, CFS shot themselves in the foot and are continuing to shoot themselves in the feet and legs by feeding everybody different information. Once the hierarchy sort that mess out, and people put in their grievance forms, we might actually see SACAD working as intended.
4) It's not hard.
Totally agree with Big Al. Has there ever been the thought of trialing the CFA "Make" system???
Have you thought about working for SACFS HQ? Yep, lets trial an outdated system that is inferior in every way to the Greater Alarm Response Procedure - Sounds like you're perfect HQ material ;)
Haha Mr No.
And no. Would prefer to work for an American fire department and kill myself in a Flash.
You are right, Greater alarm is far more superior, but the business model that unfortunately majority of volunteers have run by is more closer aligned to "Make"...naming specific appliances and/or brigades. Meanwhile the COSO/SOP handbook is more closer aligned to Greater Alarm. Right there is two Left hands shaking hands.
Now that we're here, in the now. Looks like some of those groups are doing better. and... "LEARN how to operate under the new system before you whinge about it." is about how perfect a rsponse can be to a whinging volunteer.
There are still some dodgy ones out there nearby...
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MFS: *CFSRES INC0094 23/02/12 18:28 RESPOND STRUCTURE SHED, 1 RAILWAY CRES EVANSTON,MAP:ADL 33 F 3,TG 182, ==TYRES ON FIRE BY SHED :DALK34P R ELZ339 GAW359 :
So it looks like the 19 has finally been dropped.
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MFS: *CFSRES INC0094 23/02/12 18:28 RESPOND STRUCTURE SHED, 1 RAILWAY CRES EVANSTON,MAP:ADL 33 F 3,TG 182, ==TYRES ON FIRE BY SHED :DALK34P R ELZ339 GAW359 :
So it looks like the 19 has finally been dropped.
Thank goodness!
Will erase a lot of confusion for CFS vols and staff, and Adelaide Fire ops.
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Shame we gotta find this out on here...
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Shame we gotta find this out on here...
Honestly its not that big of a deal and pretty easy when your pgaer goes off to go oh look they changed it oh well
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Known of this change for a couple of weeks. Info should have been distributed about 2 weeks ago?
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So, is it only the "19" that has been changed to "R" or are there changes that havn't filtered down to the 'worker-bee' level?
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In the 'Members Only' area on the CFS website there is a SACAD section with references to the issues and current status.
Attached is February's update
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All the MFS style appliance types have been changed to reflect what is written on the side of the trucks. The request has come down from AF and up from the vols.
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So, is it only the "19" that has been changed to "R" or are there changes that havn't filtered down to the 'worker-bee' level?
28 has been replaced with H, ie ATHL 24P H
42 with BWC
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MFS: *CFSRES INC0123 24/02/12 19:04 RESPOND HAZMAT, : ORLANDO WINES 1916 BAROSSA VALLEY WAY
ROWLAND FLAT,MAP:C/179C 54,TG 096, == FORKLIFT HAS PENETRATED BUILDING, ACETYLENE GAS LEAKING
== NURI WINDS ENE 17-24KPH :DALK HAZ :
CFS Dalkeith response
SACAD has done bugger all to improve responses. No Tanunda MFS to this job and they are just up the road.
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maybe it doesnt pull them because they havent got a "9" truck??
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Shame we gotta find this out on here...
We were told 2 Group Meetings ago, so your GO's and Captains would have known.
But it wont impede our business, just improve it, so I don't see that it is necessary to pass it on to all FF's.
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Shame we gotta find this out on here...
We were told 2 Group Meetings ago, so your GO's and Captains would have known.
But it wont impede our business, just improve it, so I don't see that it is necessary to pass it on to all FF's.
So the naming conventions for appliance types has changed and you don't see it as necessary to pass it on to the people who are riding the trucks and using the radios?
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Hi all - long time. Interested to read that after all of the BS of changing call signs to 9's (to fit in with the paid fire & rescue service) it doesn't really matter? Well there you go :-) As a side note I met with the local NSW Fire & Rescue units (Penrith & Regentville) as part of work - all rather youngish & nice people (guys & girls). I did notice on their pumpers that they are all rescue? - except the skyjet thingy! And that afternoon there they were at a major loading dock fire (not ours thank goodness).
Oh well take care & bye 4 now
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MFS: *CFSRES INC0095 25/02/12 17:50 RESPOND GRASS FIRE, WOMMA RD/HEASLIP RD PENFIELD,MAP:ADL 40 L15,TG 102, :AIRDESK ELZ331 ELZ339 SAL321 VIRG24 VIRG34P R : - MFS Salisbury SAL321
Yep, lets just deplete 2 MFS areas for less than a square metre! Go SACAD.
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Total fire ban day, would happen under any system, every fire starts small.
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seeing as its cfs area though and closer to dalkieth wouldnt or shouldnt it pull dalkieth instead of salisbury??
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seeing as its cfs area though and closer to dalkieth wouldnt or shouldnt it pull dalkieth instead of salisbury??
Thats the magic of SACAD, you never know what youre going to get. Ive seen at least 5 differing response for that location, for info its a roundabout. Concrete it i say, they seem to get a few calls there. The caller must have made it sound pretty bad?
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Total Fire Ban, closest four trucks per the beats programmed by CFS. Plus EMA area so it puts on a fifth truck which the system forces to be an MFS appliance.
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seeing as its cfs area though and closer to dalkieth wouldnt or shouldnt it pull dalkieth instead of salisbury??
Thats the magic of SACAD, you never know what youre going to get. Ive seen at least 5 differing response for that location, for info its a roundabout. Concrete it i say, they seem to get a few calls there. The caller must have made it sound pretty bad?
It's a fireban, imagine the scheiße the operator would get in if he/she didn't do it, a CFS goon would have complained either way.
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Well if thats what it pulled for that job then so be it, thanks pump and Alex