SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: 5271rescue on June 15, 2007, 07:42:40 AM
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At a meeting that the VFBA had here not so long ago and Euan was here he was talking about having a reserve list of city people or those that lived in MFS area who wanted to help CFS.These people would be like the army reserve and would do the training but be located in Adelaide and would come out to large jobs and help...Sounds good idea to me what you all think?
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that is a good idea! especially for the busy areas....have a secondary group of members in the 15min's from station zone (Traffic lights :lol:)
Ive been talking to a CFA member, and he says that members are allowed to respond to any station in the state :-o Would be pretty hard over there, seeing as pagers only work in there "base" region.
further to that...can also have membership at multiple brigades...would be good for people who work close to other CFS brigades.
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There is another thread about this floating around, but I can't seem to find it... So here's a new one! :)
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Well I like the idea of having metro volunteers but (on the assumption that they only really get on strike teams)think that some people who live locally and go on every 2nd job would hate to loose there seat to a non local FF who isn't a frequent member. So in some brigades they might not get much of a run.
the other option is to build accommodation blocks onto stations that out of area members can take shifts in, but i don't really like the chances of that happening.
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Could even have satelite CFS stations located in the Metro area. So that those members can respond to there station, specifically for strike teams to incidents around the urban fringe.
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It will happen!!
Good move for the fire services and for the community we serve.
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It will happen!!
Good move for the fire services and for the community we serve.
Place a fire truck in the SES LHQ's (prefer new locations). The combined volunteers can do the SES responses and backup the CFS during summer.
Oh sorry, that would be a combined volunteer emergency service that is a proper merger, rather than a takeover, wouldn't it :roll:
Yes, I believe this might/maybe happen in future years when the politics are sorted out.
The idea is that the majority of volunteer work in metro & regional centres would be current SES taskings and CFS taskings in country areas.
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I also gather from a meeting that i attened last night that Euan wants to try to set up USAR rescources within the SACFS...
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Good idea but would be very hard...
They wouldnt be much good to urban fringe brigades because of all the extra training they do and amount of fire calls to keep skills up to scratch and i then worry on the other hand sending people who do not turn out on a regular basis to the bigger fires??
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It will happen!!
Good move for the fire services and for the community we serve.
You're right there it will.
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i doubt it would work but could we get 24hour manned stations run purely by vollies?
As you would have in station accommodation then out of area members could be a reality yet stations would need a lot more members on their books.
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I think this would work well and if city people are willing to give up there time do the training and want to help the CFS at large rural jobs then lets give it ago.It may not work for urban brigade's but what if some of these urban brigade's open there books to new members who live 10 Min's away who are willing to help and do the training.These members could become station volunteers who Mann the station on a roster system so as to provide a 24 hr service to the community.Sure we would have to have accommodation at some stations,but what about day time crews that could be on a roster that suites them.may sound silly but it could work if some brigade's where willing to try it and open there membership books. I am well aware of urban brigade's who have closed their books but their brigade still struggle or can't get out the door during the day.
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However the urban brigade would need to have a high enough call rate to make it worthwhile. i wouldn't like to sit in the station doing nothing. Mind you study comes to mind :-P
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I am well aware of urban brigade's who have closed their books but their brigade still struggle or can't get out the door during the day.
Before some brigades can open their books, the CFS will need to change the policy to only train to the minimum SFEC. You could have 200 members on the books but they're not going to be much good if you can't even get the members you have trained up...
However the urban brigade would need to have a high enough call rate to make it worthwhile. i wouldn't like to sit in the station doing nothing. Mind you study comes to mind :-P
There are no brigades that get more than 1-2 calls a day (averaged out), you'd get a lot of study done! :P
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A brigade or group can apply to have its SFEC changed in consultation with the region and SHQ.
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I am sure it would be reasonable to allow a brigade that did 800 calls to upgrade their allowed quotas. otherwise the system wouldn't work.
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It sounds like a feasible option and the concerns raised with the metro CFS crew training would be no different from training a new member. The experience level that they would miss out on like a normal brigade member going to jobs over time would be a concern, which could be easily covered by splitting these members up through strike teams. Similar to what some groups are doing now with composite strike teams with an appliance covered with fire fighters from that group’s brigades.
Also they could help brigades/ groups that are struggling with numbers on active stand-by days.
The suggestion of having them man busy urban fringe brigades during the day I tend to disagree with due to the fact that it would take some time to get them to a decent level of training to cover structure fires and road crash rescue which is the highest amount of jobs those brigades respond to. Also I think if an urban brigade is so busy that it requires full time crew there I say make it paid, I understand we are volunteers but we are not free labour to be exploited. Plus I think they would quickly loose interest sitting around a station all day maybe going to one or two stop calls or nothing as our urban fringe brigades are not super busy.
In closing I think it would be a great idea for some really keen people. As I know my station turns some people away as they live to far away for a decent response time. A good idea! :-D
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Ok,by the sound of it you all think its a good idea?? so next time you see Euan give him your full support for this as its his idea and a very good one.
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Ok,by the sound of it you all think its a good idea?? so next time you see Euan give him your full support for this as its his idea and a very good one.
It's not actually his idea. A proposal was put to the CFS some time ago on this "idea".
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Before some brigades can open their books, the CFS will need to change the policy to only train to the minimum SFEC.
it has been changed, or clarified, it's maximum not minimum (in R1 at least but I presume the same everywhere).
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Geez, lets give the CO some cred for a good plan. Cos after all, its his headon the block if there's a bad plan, why can't he get kudos for a good one for a change :roll: :lol:
I thought the metro thing would be where you basically do a bush fire fighting version of BFF1, and a bit of training, but essentially you're called upon for strike teams on day 4, 5, 6, or whenever it is that we start running out of volunteers as does happens.
Those that say 'but they wouldn't have much experience or training' well none of us can really say we have a huge amount of experience at big fires, thank goodness, and with any luck we never will! So the answer is that you would use the metro based people as fill-ins under guidance and direction wherever needed from people that have experienced some flames - the fifth person on the appliance for example.
Yeah?
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Those that say 'but they wouldn't have much experience or training' well none of us can really say we have a huge amount of experience at big fires, thank goodness, and with any luck we never will! So the answer is that you would use the metro based people as fill-ins under guidance and direction wherever needed from people that have experienced some flames - the fifth person on the appliance for example.
Yeah?
Well, theoretically, if these crews were doing even 10 strike teams every season, that's more fires than many rural CFS brigades do...
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With $1.5 million dollars slashed from the CFS budget I dont think there will be too many training courses this year to put the Metro ones through
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This was on channel seven news to night. Looks like Metro Volunteers will be doing a sort version of the BFF1, 1 day course. It was interesting to listen to.
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My understanding of the system, from Euans report on the news is that it would be only during the fire danger season and for large, campain type incidents. The day to day responding would not change, and when a big one hits, the normal vollies would be initial attack, then as relievers, the city folk would come in for a shift or two. Their training would only be bush fire training ie. BFF1, and i imagine they would need to be working with full members when on the fire ground for supervision/safety purposes.
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It all sounds promising but it'll be interesting to hear how the on going training is carried out after the initial course. Will they form there own groups or train with current brigades etc.
Maybe we could bring back Northfield :lol:.
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They could train the SES metro crews????
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Maybe we could bring back Northfield (Quote)
Yeah and Marion etc as well :-P
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They could train the SES metro crews????
Hmmm, cross-training would be logical...700+ SES volunteers in Central Region (Adelaide metro) already commited & trained as a team of emergency service volunteers & two one-day courses have already been completed at Meadows CFS.
But would we be able to assist on a CFS truck...unlikely given current politics.
This seems madness in politics to me....
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I wonder how this may affect some of the smaller rural brigades that are at present called on to do taskings now.
Some of those brigades have minimal calls during the year now and the task calls are helping them with call out stats.
Every rural Group has a minimal call out brigade and in most cases those brigades in Groups are called on to do the taskings.
Middleton Brigade is an example within the Mundoo Group, even Currency Ck falls in to that area to. Take away their taskings....Wonder what affect that may have...Maybe none, I dont know.
Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree.
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It could effect them......but on a big fire.....every...firefighter there is 2 more hands to be used..
I just wish those misplaced firefighters.who have moved home for many reasons.like work etc.that cant join local CFS Stations due to closed books...could be utilised.....as they already are experienced ppl
I'm Backkkkkk....LOL
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Closed booked now there is one problem that needs to be removed,that way city people could join as seasonal firefighters and still have access to training and team work
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the courses run at meadows were a basic familiarisation with fire appliances and had a few units from bff1 and suppress wildfire. the idea was that when ses are providing logistical support they would havemore of and idea about fire fighting and where not to be IE deadman zone,etc i think it is a great idea if the ses are willing to help go for it.
matt
my opinion only
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the courses run at meadows were a basic familiarisation with fire appliances and had a few units from bff1 and suppress wildfire. the idea was that when ses are providing logistical support they would havemore of and idea about fire fighting and where not to be IE deadman zone,etc i think it is a great idea if the ses are willing to help go for it.
matt
my opinion only
I know of a few metro SES members who are now also members of a CFS brigade (be it Ops or active brigade). A few more are now considering the dual membership.
If you can't do it within the existing organisation restraints, then a volunteer will do it themselves...
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Comments removed - to be forwarded through the proper channels!
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Pixie, do you have a better idea to address the lack of interest in strike teams? There were fires last season where strike teams were considered for region 3 fires and interstate, but were canned due to lack of interest.
The metro cfs volunteers seems like a viable option to me. Or maybe hire some more seasonal firies like the NPWS do? They can then be used almost exclusively for strike teams etc, but this would cost quite a few dollars though.
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Pixie, I wouldn't be verbally "bashing" the Cheif Officer of the service you are apart of, on such a public forum..
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The lack of interest for interstate fires is probably unfounded as i know many volunteers weren't asked and i had the time available to go. (but mabey not the experience)
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Comments removed - to be forwarded through the proper channels!
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MFS firefighters do/are trained to fight bushfires, it is part of their ongoing training. But sending too many of them away is not an option as MFS in Adelaide doesnt have the numbers to spare.Hence all the ongoing recruiting.
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Comments removed - to be forwarded through the proper channels!
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I am just making my opinion heard, I will "verbaly bash" whoever I need to if it is in relation to any possible saftey hazards!! Can you honestly tell me that you would be happy having a firefighter on your truck who has had just one days training?? Im sorry, but I am not a big fan of baby sitting!!
I am sure there would be much better options, like not telling fireys NO when they ask to be put on an Appliance for a strike team?? how avbout training the MFS guys to fight bushfires, and then current cfs guys who can't spare a couple of days could then mnaby do shifts around the MFS station??
just MY OPINION
Pixie
I was always led to believe the internet is a form of media. This, being in the very public eye, could be considered a very active form of media. - You may want to go over a few policies/rules, particularly Section 22 (The old Red21)- in regards to what you say in the public arena. (High and low ranking members of all services read this, I can bet your bottom dollar Ministers & Chiefs Aids read this stuff, along with Commanders, Regional/District Officers, and everyone else).. - They may be "YOUR" views, however, you could land yourself in some rather hot water..
- I'm only letting you know as a friendly reminder.. - There are people on this forum who have stated they have gone through this in the past.. - Remember, whether you like what is going on or not, you are meant to be supportive of the service you represent. There are ways of putting forward what could be considered as rather disgruntled views, however publically bashing the Chief, and other services, is not the way to go about it. - And im not saying you may not have cause, im just saying I don't believe you are going about it the right way.
Tactful means are the way to go. . . -And remember, we are all here to do one job.. Save Lives.
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The coments might land him/her in the scheiße but it wont help the brigade either.
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It's alright, his brigade is already screwed anyway.
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From what I have seen so far in the debate on metro fighters some interesting points have been raised. I have allows been of the opinion that action speaks louder than words. Being a Brigade on the edge of a rural city with it very own MFS area means that all those wonderfull potential CFS volunteers have a choice of being a member of SES or no emergency service. Over the last year I have been slowly gaining volunteers from this city even though it is about 60 km away. These volunteers dare I be so bold are more active and more keen those that live my town to see the service grow. I just wish I can expand more into the regional city. I have conducted training with SES in the past and found that they are more than ready to help the CFS where ever they can. Maybe the answers in having lay some where in the middle having a support brigade that can transport the members to where they need to be and a kindred brigade that can provide them with and maintain their skills.
but then again these are my thoughts and opinions
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So has the CO actually come up with a public outline of how he wants to do this.
I have heard that brigades in urban fringe would accept members from the city as one way and the other way is where there are a large number of older/refurb 24s sitting in a warehouse and the metrosCFS (as opposed to mets) would get an SMS to respond?
What ever happens there must be something done very quickly because training and organising these crew will take a good chunk of the time left before FDS.
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What ever happens there must be something done very quickly because training and organising these crew will take a good chunk of the time left before FDS.
I don't think anyone has ever suggested it will be happening within the next 12 months. There has been no money allocated in the budget for this program and as far as I can tell it is all still a dream in the mind of a couple of people in Waymouth Street.
If it it happens the earliest we would see anyone on the fireground would be late 2008 early 2009.
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Got to love the Waymouth Street dreamers.........
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What ever happens there must be something done very quickly because training and organising these crew will take a good chunk of the time left before FDS.
I don't think anyone has ever suggested it will be happening within the next 12 months. There has been no money allocated in the budget for this program and as far as I can tell it is all still a dream in the mind of a couple of people in Waymouth Street.
If it it happens the earliest we would see anyone on the fireground would be late 2008 early 2009.
Recruiting has already started in certain areas.
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They can come and mop up my fires, so I can get my troops home and rested. Saves having to respond strike teams to mop up, taking resources and precious few available FF's out of area.
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What ever happens there must be something done very quickly because training and organising these crew will take a good chunk of the time left before FDS.
I don't think anyone has ever suggested it will be happening within the next 12 months. There has been no money allocated in the budget for this program and as far as I can tell it is all still a dream in the mind of a couple of people in Waymouth Street.
If it it happens the earliest we would see anyone on the fireground would be late 2008 early 2009.
Recruiting has already started in certain areas.
Thanks
where are they recruiting this first lot from?
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With all the news articles about the CFS on TV and radio do you think anyone will want to join now????
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They can come and mop up my fires, so I can get my troops home and rested. Saves having to respond strike teams to mop up, taking resources and precious few available FF's out of area.
Makes good sense. Certainly that's how RFS used us blow-ins at Arcadia & probably other places. Their folks went back to earning a living & did first response in the area while we blacked out. From the PoV of a hose-dragger, it seemed to work well.
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But if you need the 2nd responders crew, why is it that some CFS Brigades will not let you join unless you are within 5 mins response time :?
Surely it does not matter if the person has 15 mins travel time, because the 1st responders have already left. They will be for a shift change or blacking out, or traffic control, or maintenance.
Difficult to keep the volunteer enthusiastic when they do not get many jobs, but at least they still help the community.
** My thoughts only. Please correct me if I my information is wrong **
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Because of the cap placed on membership by CFS HQ, with the SFEC's, my brigade is very strict with the area's we recruit from because of this. If we had the ability to take on 10 or so people without affecting our SFEC numbers we would probably take people from out of area. But we have a responsability to get the truck out quickly, so can't afford to take on people out of area.
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As I have said before the so called CAP can be removed and it is not enforced its manily a brigade rule in some urban brigade's...They are the one's that can cap or not cap ......If you want to get a cap on membership removed there is a way of doing it by asking for a change in the SFEC for your brigade or group..... It would be fair to see that a number of brigade's would have more members if this was removed
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But if you need the 2nd responders crew, why is it that some CFS Brigades will not let you join unless you are within 5 mins response time :?
Given that the majority of vols are employed, & in outer-metro areas tend to be employed down in the 'burbs, it can take a full SFEC (funded) list of 1st-response members to get a minimum crew together in the required time - out the door in 4 or 6 minutes or whatever. Their real need is for more first-response people. For 2nd-response,,, well, there's the rest of the existing membership list straggling in late to fill that quota. Why would a brigade with 'full' membership "waste" their discretionary $$ on people who merely duplicate what they've already got?
Of course, if a brigade is way short of its SFEC funded strength and with little prospect of additional 1st-responder recruitment, then out-of-area members might be valuable in keeping the brigade viable as a group reserve for strike teams & etc. At least until local recruiting conditions change for the better.
In any event, I think the CFS may need to revise its minimum 1st response crew size - responding more brigades to jobs to ensure enough hands & feet arrive, especially during B/H. The requirement that a working crew must all arrive in the one vehicle from the one station is pen-pushing neatness rather than a real-world essential. As proven by the number of composite crews on strike teams over the last 2 summers. Don MacArthur's push for standard trucks & training enables just this. Plus, a stop-call on excess responders is easier & quicker to arrange than default turn-outs - as stated clearly by the RCR MoU. Better outcome for the public too.
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...I think the CFS may need to revise its minimum 1st response crew size...
What is the recommended minimum crew size before a CFS truck roles ?
Genuine curiosity because I have seen & heard different numbers.
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What is the recommended minimum crew size before a CFS truck roles ?
Genuine curiosity because I have seen & heard different numbers.
I understand it is 4. But I have not confirmed this recently from the COSO/SOP folder. It's a sensible number - operating a truck with less than that is hard yakka. But I see no problem with say, 3 appliances turning up from 3 brigades with only three bods per truck, forming into two crews & operating just two of the appliances. The third is a handy source of extra water & hardware, and a useful traffic calming device.
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Most groups have 4 as a minimum but some do have three.If you are an EMA brigade then 4, which at least 2 must be BA is the criteria when going into MFS area.
You need 4 really as two are BA, and the Driver/Pump Operator is doubling as an ECO then you have one who is OIC or Incident Controller,so 4 to maintain a safe work environment at a job.
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Most groups have 4 as a minimum but some do have three.
Is that number a local decision ?
Or is it (as I have been told but not researched) a CFSHQ COSO/SOP?
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When you take a look at it the formation of a Metro CFS station would actually be a good thing cause people who are interested in joining the CFS but live within Adelaide City limits too far from any volunteer station can sign up and be apart of the metro station :-)
Its really tempting for CFS vollies who plan to move to Adelaide and still wanna be involved with the CFS :-D
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You'd be the Captain in a week Rob !
:mrgreen:
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Moving to Adelaide is really tempting :wink: although im gonna wait and see what happens down my way first :-)
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You'd be the Captain in a week Rob !
:mrgreen:
Just make sure you have your pager on you :-P
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Yeah i would have my pager on me at all times as well as a GRN radio in my car :-D
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Most groups have 4 as a minimum but some do have three.
Is that number a local decision ?
Or is it (as I have been told but not researched) a CFSHQ COSO/SOP?
I'm pretty sure the SOP's say a minimum crew for an appliance is 4, however it also defines an appliance as having > 2000litres (?) so QAV's, 14s 12, etc don't have a minimum....
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i have heard 4 for 24's and 2 for 14s
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Doesnt the first responding appliance have to be a minimum of a 2.2 appliance with a crew of 4?
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That makes it a little difficult if you only have a 14 appliance..... :-D
Pip
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I'm pretty sure the SOP's say a minimum crew for an appliance is 4, however it also defines an appliance as having > 2000litres (?) so QAV's, 14s 12, etc don't have a minimum....
Hmmm. must be time to drop 100L out of the 24 & call it a QAV. :roll:
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The minimum crew for QAV's is either 2 or 4 people pending on if its a 2 door or 4 door 4WD
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are you guys drifting just a little bit off topic?
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Salisbury CFS have got the ball rolling.
16:06:08 19-08-07 BFF RESERVES TRAINING TOMORROW NIGHT AT 1915 HRS FROM LT1
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Doesnt the first responding appliance have to be a minimum of a 2.2 appliance with a crew of 4?
Per SOP a minimum crew is 4. An appliance is a 24 or larger type appliance (presumably they consider a type 2 larger then...).
Pip, the SOPs say that two QAVs or 14s constitute one appliance... but i guess if all youve got is a 14 youd be dual responded (hopefully) anyway.