SA Firefighter
General Discussion => SA Firefighter General => Topic started by: uniden on August 08, 2007, 08:13:11 PM
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17:46:23 08-08-07 MTG: Weekly test page. Hopefully we will get something done before it''s too late. Keep your chins up and keep working hard!!
This must be about the so called turf war, so says the local SES controller.
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17:46:23 08-08-07 MTG: Weekly test page. Hopefully we will get something done before it''s too late. Keep your chins up and keep working hard!!
This must be about the so called turf war, so says the local SES controller.
:? must be a local thing.
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Rumour has it MFS want to do RCR and fire cover for 30kms from the mount...
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30km's is a long way for RCR :-o....especially when there is already a SES brigade covering RCR in the area about to be expanded into!
if i crashed my car 29km from mt gambier...id like the CLOSEST resource sent to me :) for both fire cover and RCR
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MFS are fulltime down that way MON - FRI on day shift.. IF you crashed your car 29km from the mount, I would hazard a guess that the MFS would get to you first! - and be able to do both Rescue, and Fire cover..
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Fire cover?? The closest and most appropriate resource should be utilised. According to the road crash book, fire cover would always be the closest fire appliance. Be it red or white.
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Fire cover, unlikely, but certainly rescue, there isn't much in the way of rescue down there, so that makes sense they would go that far, times change, this was to be expected, the road crash rescue commitee would have rocks in there head to knock back a fulltime rescue crew over volunteer, got nothing to do with who has done it in the past, or what they are capable of, its just the simple fact they are a fulltime crew.
Lets wait for the bashing session to start......... :roll:
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if it was 30 kms it would be in Millicent rescue area,ses in the mount are very fast out the door,keep in mind MFS only have one day time crew for one appliances,so they would be leaving the area wide open for the retain guys to cover with CFS back up.... As for rescue cover,well there is ses mount/mfs mount/millicent cfs and millicent ses/penola cfs so there are lots of rescue resources down here... Understand that the full time day MFS crew are not happy as they dont get alot of call outs the retain guys are getting most of the action after hours.
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We have to action the job that is occuring. - Not worry bout what "might" happen in the town.. - That is why the retained come in to cover/backup the full timers as they go to a job.
If a Rescue is occuring 30km out of town, I am most certain the fulltime crew would arrive on scene, before another service. - This is getting the quickest service to the scene.. And getting the job done. - Hence, saving lives!..
You cant go " Well that leaves the town un-covered " .. because that is why the retained crew is paged in.. - Someone shouldn't have to die, trapped in their car, just because something "might" happen in town if the truck was to respond.
It has nothing to do with how much 'action' they get.. Thats just a silly statement. They can get to the job quicker, they are a fulltime crew who have every capability to do the job, so let them do it! .. - If you want to respond the other services as backup, then do it, many hands make light work. But it would be stupid not to send a fulltime service when it is only 30 km away compared to 'hoping' a Vol. crew will respond to the page.
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Before MFS get to cocky they need to have consultation with all other services,I can assure you Millicent and both penola CFS have very good RCR skills and do a filtered good job.So the MFS would need to also change their area of responce and just not walk in because they are a full time paid service......Why is it that they want to just take over RCR?? and why is it that its for working hours only????
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The Mount shift is day shift. Fulltime MON - FRI (Excl P/Hols). This means that during these hours a fulltime Fire & Rescue service is available. Any one with 'common sense' can see this means, that during these hours, if you have an accident and require rescue, a fulltime service is available and in close proximity. -So what should we do??... SEND IT!..
No one is saying the Volunteers down that way don't do a good job, but at the end of the day, they are hard working Vollies. Which means you CANNOT gaurentee 100% that the service is available when the pagers drop. However, during day shift hours, MON-FRI you CAN gaurentee that the resource is available 30km away.. So send the bl00dy thing! Even if it is just on the off chance that the Vollies don't get a crew! .. - Im sure people who live down that way would agree, if it was them, or one of their loved ones in the up-turned vehicle, they would want a service to get there, which ever colour the appliance.
-I don't believe a decision has been made in regards to what is going to occur, however "I" believe if the fulltime resource is available, and in close proximity (30 km is close when it comes to those areas and those circumstances), then send it.
No one is getting too cocky Rescue5271, but I think some people on here need to realise that the paid services' aren't just out their to take over Vol. Turf.. They are their to do a job! If it means they beat a Vol brigade to a cutout and have the person extricated before the Vol's arrive, well, so be it. At least that person was in their car half hour less than they had to be. That could be the difference between life and death.. (Like wise if the Vols get there first and have them cutout before the Perm's arrive.. Top stuff.. Job done!)
Times are changing, response areas are changing, and some people are going to have to get over it.
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There was an article in the 08/08/2007 issue of The Border Watch about this topic :-)
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Mt Gambier MFS has no plans to force the issue over RCR reponses. They will continue to respond to incidents despatched by MFS comms.
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Um it's not the MFS getting too cocky, they don't decide it's the road crash rescue commitee. I don't know about 30K's but it is definitely time they were recognised as a road crash resource.
And yeh full time can get a pump/rescue truck out the door without having to wait for crew or going short of crew so they should do it, case closed.
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Aren't Gambier MFS already in the book as second rescue for the Mount??? Which would mean they are recognised as a heavy rescue resource!!!
But have to agree would be better turnout for MVA's in the district with the full time day crew.
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Let me clear up a few misconceptions.
Aren't Gambier MFS already in the book as second rescue for the Mount??? Which would mean they are recognised as a heavy rescue resource!!!
But have to agree would be better turnout for MVA's in the district with the full time day crew.
Yes Mt Gambier MFS are secondary rescue for Mt Gambier and surrounding districts, ie Compton,Wandilo,Allendale, Port MacDonnell, Yahl etc etc. But they do not carry all of the Heavy Gear that some MFS appliances do, like heavy duty spreaders, Rams and good scene lighting.
Rumour has it MFS want to do RCR and fire cover for 30kms from the mount...
Rumours are exactly that rumours! Dont believe anything until it happens.
As far as not getting a lot of calls during the day. There were 6 responses yesterday, yes two were at night.
for the MFS Before MFS get to cocky they need to have consultation with all other services,I can assure you Millicent and both penola CFS have very good RCR skills and do a filtered good job.So the MFS would need to also change their area of responce and just not walk in because they are a full time paid service......Why is it that they want to just take over RCR?? and why is it that its for working hours only????
MFS arent even secondary resuce into areas around Penola or Millicent, only support to Mt Gambier SES rescue response area.
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I'd prefer the SES to cut me out because i can have a chutney and cheese sandwich while i wait! I doubt the culinary skills of the Metros come close! :-)
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I guess watch this space,,,,,,
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I'd prefer the SES to cut me out because i can have a chutney and cheese sandwich while i wait! I doubt the culinary skills of the Metros come close! :-)
You will have to await until your discharge from hospital, don't want to comprimise that surgery ;)
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hmmm i havent bothered reading half of what has been said, but here we go anyway...
a permanent fire service dayshift was put in the mount to cover the towns identified risks... so why would you send them way out of district when there is already a competent SES crew available to do so, thus leaving the township covered?
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** personal opinion only **
If a MFS crew is at station, then use them. Has a group of emergency service organisations, we must provide the best service for the community.
Currently MFS & SES both roll for RCR incidents. MFS for fire cover & SES for rescue. At the incident I am sure both crews pitch in to help each other get the job done. So it is happening NOW.
Any change in work practices will affect volunteers because some join for the rush & excitement of rescue. But that is for the organisation to work on retaining the volunteer so they feel useful. No one likes constant calls for 'tree down' & nothing else. :|
But what happens at 5:00pm when the MFS fulltime crew go home ? The RCR Directory currently states that the SES have the equipment/training/crew, then why go to MFS retained crew after normal working hours !!
The current RCR system is setup on areas for the 24x7 coverage. It does not allow for MFS to be dispatched between 0800 to 1700 Monday to Friday, and then SES for the rest. Maybe this will/might change in the future.
At the moment, the person answering the telephone call from a person requesting assistance at a vehicle accident, has a lot to remember and process (I have done this as a volunteer answering 132500). I would not want the operator to look at a clock at (eg what happens at 1650 on a Tuesday) to determine which crew to dispatch.
As stated, both MFS & SES respond now.
But this potential change, like Seaford, needs to be handled properly so that volunteers stay as a resource for the community and feel useful. Time for serious work on volunteer retention.
** personal opinion only **
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hmmm i havent bothered reading half of what has been said, but here we go anyway...
a permanent fire service dayshift was put in the mount to cover the towns identified risks... so why would you send them way out of district when there is already a competent SES crew available to do so, thus leaving the township covered?
Quite honestly mack, becuase unfortunately volunteers can't gaurentee a crew.
-As I have clearly stated before.. I'm not commenting on their (SES/CFS)'s abilities or competencies, but if a paid service is 10 mins away, and can GAURENTEE a response, then send them to the people trapped in their car. - We have to consider the emergency at hand, if their isnt a job goin in town, however 3 people require cutting out of their mangled car 10 mins away, then send the resource to them!.. If a job comes up in town, either send the retained crew or once the truck is clear send them back..
It would be an identical situation if the crash happend outside the station, the truck is technically tied up, so response to another call would occur just as if they were 10 mins down the road at a cutout.
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whats with the sandwich jokes comon guys its getting old tea and coffee is now help your self cause i dont make your lunch nor do any other ses members
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I guess it is getting old,SES do a great job and they do more work than people know...
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i know as a ses meber myself i work my backside off help the cfs in big fires and that the cfs and mfs work just as hard when we call them but there is alot more work the ses do then people think
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Hi guys, been reading posts on here for some time & after reading this topic thought I'd better comment. First sesrescue rescue5271 had already said what a great job we do so don't get so defensive, Second I was at a conference where this(Mets taking over RCR) was mentioned by their Unit Manager & everyone there told him it is not a done deal & as was mentioned in previous posts there is a process that must be followed, Third bajdas from what was said at the conference they were planning on attending incidents as rescuers & paging their retained as fire cover - ergo after hours the retained guys would have a truck with a full RCR kit (normal retained trucks don't- combitools don't meet the standard) be trained & as you may very well know the number and types of tasks impact our budgets. So eventhough it sounds like a great idea in Adelaide, I would be concerned if I was the UM @ the Mount. Finally recent experience up here has shown that just because you are paid does not guarantee full crews (Retained), remember you need 3 rescuers plus fire cover for RCR. So If it was a full time 24 hr a day seven days a week service fine, but as its not leave it be.
Anyway those are my thoughts cheers
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The reference to the Paid response from the Mount, was in regards to the staffed day shift crew. - Which unless tied at another job/unavailable, is gaurenteed.
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Yep understand that & on the surface it makes sense. However fully equipped RCR resources are expensive to equip & train so in this era of cost cutting & avoiding duplication it doesn't make take too much imagination to see what is the next step. Having recently taken over a unit which @ the time did not and could not meet the standard, I among others seriously considered handing over RCR to the local MFS brigade (retained)so I have no issues with Mets doing RCR not until you look at other issues - lack of crews, priorities etc. So back to the Mount,Day time no dramas if in town What happens at night? Why use SES if a fully equipped Red truck is sitting in the shed? What happens if the day crew is already committed to other tasks? Use retained How many retained are at the Mount? Is the cap going to be increased? Use SES - Will local SES members stay if they know they are only playing second fiddle to payed emergency services & only at night and on weekends? Will SAFECOM ensure SES local equipment levels are maintained if they are not being utilized? I'm not sure that many people outside of SES RCR units realise we have gone through a lot of pain in the last few years to lift the bar so to speak in training & equipment. All members of RCR teams must do the new national competency course for RCR & we must resit for assessment every three years. And before anyone mentions the logbooks as someone who did the course on logbooks its not as simple as it sounds. Also every unit in East region has been audited against the standard and obviously any deficiencies must be rectified. So considering all of the above, Why would a unit who only conducts RCR operations when others can't- bother? Remember the reason vollies do emergency service work is not tied to pay levels & for most of us it costs us a lot more than non vollies realise ( including the minister & CEO's). So I understand why the guys in the Mount are a tad nervous & what looks like a simple solution on the surface has some implications which may turn around and bite if not carefully thought through. Cheers Chook
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You raise some valid points, and im not disagreeing with any of them.. - Not speaking for any one else, but my own opinion was that if their was an incident requiring rescue, within 30 km of the mount, and the fulltime crew was available, that it was my opinion they should be tasked.. (Along with which ever vol. agency covers that area also).
Only because they are there, they are available, and even if it was only day time mon to fri, a truck enroute is exactly that..! And those few mins saved can make a big difference.
Obvioulsy things would need to be worked out during the other times, as you stated, and that is where it would probably revert back to the local agencies who are probably slightly closer than that 30 km from the mount.
I don't think the 'second fiddle' issue would be too bad, as they would still be responded initially, but with the perm. truck tasked also (just ensuring a response).
Again, this only solves an issue for mon - fri during the day, and only if they are available, but at least during those times, if the system I mentioned above was in place, at least a truck would be going.
Im not sure how that would effect the agreement with the town coverage, I would assume it would go to retained till they were back in town?.. But who knows, they may have to stay and cover the town?.. Not entirely sure how it works down there.. My suggestion was just that if the Rescue was available, then it may as well be sent, as it is atleast getting a resource enroute while waiting for the vol. agencies who were paged.
:-)
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My thoughts exactly, if managed well dispatching the fulltime crew makes sense. Just going from past experience - things are never managed well & there is definitely some "history" down there, when this issue was raised at the conference, I didn't think it was a bad idea, until all of those issues I mentioned previously came up. And then it was quietly mentioned about something that happened in the past - couldn't find out what exactly or when (you know these things can go on for years in country towns & no one knows what started it or why). Up here we work well with the Mets (we even take turns on who is going to baby sit the scene until the towies show up), but in the past there has been some bad blood; usually caused by strong personalities, lack of understanding of how each other works & yes a bit of empire building. As I have said previously I was considering handing the RCR role over to our local MFS brigade, until we did the SWOT analysis (strengths, weaknesses, outcomes, threats) & the problems outway-ed the benefits. So I guess that all of those things need to be considered,open & honest communication with all of those involved & then proper detailed planning initiated prior to any change. As an aside this process needs to be conducted for all of the emergency services, in all areas of the state as a matter of urgency. As things currently stand there isn't a clear plan & those things that were promised when SAFECOM was formed (reduced duplication, clear direction etc) just hasn't occurred. For example if you read the Green book (RCR directory) it states that combitools do not meet the standard, yet my backup unit according to the directory is the local MFS (which I don't have a problem with)- but they don't meet the equipment standard. So when I need back up or default the page I call the closest SES unit which is against what the directory states - could be a source of conflict? These are the issues that need to be dealt with in a holistic way prior to any change down the Mount or anywhere else for that matter. Sorry for the long reply, just there has been too many knee jerk reactions in the past, which we all pay for eventually. - chook
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MESSAGE ONLY : , SCANIA IS NOW SETUP AS A RESCUE AND IS NOW 709, EVERYBODY WILL NEED TO FAMILIARISE THEMSELVES, LOCKERS HAVE BEEN CHANGED AROUND TO FIT EXTRA GEAR, ISUZU IS NOW 701, WOODY MFS Mt Gambier Response
So will this upset a few in the orange apple cart? Or did they work everything out in the mount?
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Really nothing has changed. SES are still primiary rescue MFS have just upgraded to the gear they are meant to have as secondary rescue. Fairly important considering the population of the area and the coverage area of the SES.
Quite likely that more than one MVA can occur at the same time, or multiple entrapments which has happenned before.
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Gambier SES is now also doing RCR cover into Victoria due to a unit taking a break due to low numbers...........
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How does the response procedure work or brigades/ units that respond over the border?
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Similar to Broken Hill SES covering a northern part of SA.
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How does the response procedure work or brigades/ units that respond over the border?
Jump in the truck and drive over the border. haha
GRN works for about 50km? over the border.
Basically a call will come in either to vic fire or whoever ses use and they will respond whoever is setup in their CAD system. So im guessing mt gambier is setup for a bit of vic.
Donovans CFS also dual respond with Nelson CFA due to low numbers in Nelson. Not sure if this is done via VicFire or through a local setup.
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ok thanks
so is it like i ring vicfire who ring Adelaide fire or can vicfire trigger SAGRN pagers
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Vicfire would direct all calls through MFS comms for paging to CFS and SES units.
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Vicfire will call our alerts here in Naracoorte and they will ask us to page XZY brigade and what ever the job is,our group has a very close working relationship with CFA.Naracoorte rescue will now go into Victoria up to 50/60 kms for RCR cover due to low numbers of SES at Edenhope,we are able to talk to local groups and Vicfire on VHF.Works well but sometimes CAD gets it wrong and I have had a VICFIRE member call me at home to see whos area it is ,,, Cad can and still does get it wrong CFA now have in place a system where we are able to make sure its updated every few months via the CFA regional office.....
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Is the system broekn - No
Have there been issues of no response from SES - No
have MFS had more than one job at once (including an RCR) - Yes
Should the two services work together to provide the best service to the community - Yes
Does the RCRRD allow for 1st and 2nd rescue to cover shortfalls, two incidents, other commitments - Yes
need for change - NONE
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Well said mate, just come home from another meeting where this was mentioned - nothing is going to change was the very loud message. For those who keep bring this up - build a bridge! There is no need to change, there is no desire to change (by most anyway), so instead learn to work together, respect each other & stop this crap!
That applies to all sides.
said enough cheers
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Yeah, well said oz fire. If there are 2 services working together well then we shouldn't try to interfere. they do a great job, leave them be.