SA Firefighter
Technical Discussion => ALL Rescue => Topic started by: Good times on June 20, 2005, 07:41:55 PM
-
Over the years I am sure a lot of you have used various rescue tools, what are your fav's, I have always preferred Holmatro, but have used the others and they all have thier good points, for overall ease of use I prefer Holmatro.
What do you prefer?
-
Hydrolic powered, definately Holmatro, altho don't like the hand swivel which opens and closes the tool.
Fav. Hand tool, definately the Halligan :D (Or Hooligan as some say)
-
Anything so long as it's Holmatro :-D
Personally my favourite is a 3150 combi tool - lot's of RCR purists say it's not up to speed for heavy entrapments, but the things you can do with it are amazing. Light, powerful and very versatile.
(http://www.holmatro-rescue.com/privatedata/picupload/1185/PRODUCT/829/large.jpg)
-
we have just recieved one of these Holmatro Combi-Tools. what sort of restrictions does it have over heavy rescue gear? would you say that for all your "day to day" uses it is up to the task? i have had a play with it but have not used it on a vehicle as yet. seems comfortable to handle tho. :-o
-
You can do a fair bit with it, the cutters are not as good as they don't cross over like a dedicated cutter, but you could do door pops , you remove a roof, but the easiest way is to cut up a car and see what it does.
So what happened to your lucas heavy gear then?
-
I have removed and popped doors, removed the B pillars and thus the side of a car, removed the roof, popped bonnets all with that tool. It is very handy, and can do most things, altho I wouldnt roll up to a Rescue without knowing that some one with a Heavy set is on the way, as it has some limitations.
-
i think we are going to be training tonight with the new tool, so I will get to see what it can do :evil:
The haevy rescue equipment is going back to region to be used as they see fit. we have been told it will be re-issued to a brigade that needs heavy rescue equipment.
I have to say i am impressed by the honda pump that is used with this gear. the weight of it is excellent. again, i will have to wait until we have used it to see what it is like in action.
-
Question, where have you stowed it on the new truck, and where do you keep the PPV fan?
-
RE the tool you will be pleasantly suprised at what this can do. Even though the cutters have some minor limitations you should have no problems doing almost all the rapid intervention work you can imagine.
I have seen this tool pop door locks and hinges, complete side of car removal, roof folds, single side dash role (limited spread) and even a roof removal on very wide C pillars.
As stated below this tool is not intented to work a heavy entrapment but it will do more than you expect. Always have a heavy rescue resource coming and you can make a great start to the job.
-
surely eden hills will still require the heavy rescue gear if it wishes to remain as a road crash rescue resource...
eden hills is listed as primary rescue for eden hills (funnily enough) and bellevue heights, and secondary (default) rescue for blackwood, belair, hawthorndene, coromandel valley, coromandel east, glenalta, cherry gardens, etc....
and to be a road crash resource you must carry;
heavy duty hydraulic cutters
heavy duty hydraulic spreaders
heavy duty hydraulic ram (300mm and 600mm or telescopic)
stabilising equipment
etc....
a qoute from the SA RCR Resource Directory:
"combined cutter/spreader units, referred to as rapid intervention tools or "combi" tools such as those made my holmatro or hurst do not meet the minimum criteria for a rescue response"
so... does this mean that eden hills will be removed from the road crash directory as a rescue response?? i would presume so.
and therefore the question begs to be asked why was the gear supplied?? seems like a waste of time and money to me.
im not having a personal go, im all for new toys and getting the good gear, but i see it as a major issue.
for instance if we have a rescue in coromandel valley and for some reason blackwood cannot roll there rescue, the defualt will go to eden hills (its happened a few times)... and basically (from my personal knowledge... which ill admit isnt completely comprehensive) a combi-tool isnt sufficient equipment to effect rescue of a single entrapment or multiple trapped personseffect rescue. so what happens then? a second default? this time to MFS? if we are still estimating the chance of a persons survival by using the "golden hour" theory, then weve just cut there odds by delaying rescue
my personal thoughts/concern only...
-
Well written Alex,
I think the RCR rescource directory will be re written or editted in this situation as Eden has St Mary's 409 (heavy rescue) down the hill and Blackwood up the hill from them.
I think someone somewhere is auditing what's where and what's need! Whether this is a formal or informal process I'm not too sure, but envisage some more changes around alot of areas as SAFECOMM is assessing things!
-
As for my Favorite RCR tool. I love a Halligan/Hooligan tool! It's a great resource for a ff not only at road crashesd, but at structure fires. I used one to gain access through the curtain roller door at the Mitcham Shopping Centre fire after the MFS disc saw failed (as it has a fibro/diamond cutting disc for concrete on it!)
-
coro arent a road crash brigade but my favourite tool is the halligan (im sure most ppl love it), ive used it at training to pop car boots and doors, takes quite a bit of muscle and fiddling though, also havge used it to make extra space whilst looking for car batteries to isolate.
and whilst we have goe through the theory of forcing entry into a house with one, i havent had the chance to put it to use yet
-
Well, if the R/R Directory remains the same, (as in obligations, etc.) I would almost definately expect Eden Hills to be removed as heavy rescue response. As obviously, they don't carry the gear. ( Correct me if wrong steveg)
Secondly, re: A rescue in corro. If Blackwood dont respond, i guess it MAY fall on 409, altho,...could be 439. Nearest CFS rescue brigades are probably either Meadows Rescue, or maybe burnside...???
surely eden hills will still require the heavy rescue gear if it wishes to remain as a road crash rescue resource...
eden hills is listed as primary rescue for eden hills (funnily enough) and bellevue heights, and secondary (default) rescue for blackwood, belair, hawthorndene, coromandel valley, coromandel east, glenalta, cherry gardens, etc....
and to be a road crash resource you must carry;
heavy duty hydraulic cutters
heavy duty hydraulic spreaders
heavy duty hydraulic ram (300mm and 600mm or telescopic)
stabilising equipment
etc....
a qoute from the SA RCR Resource Directory:
"combined cutter/spreader units, referred to as rapid intervention tools or "combi" tools such as those made my holmatro or hurst do not meet the minimum criteria for a rescue response"
so... does this mean that eden hills will be removed from the road crash directory as a rescue response?? i would presume so.
and therefore the question begs to be asked why was the gear supplied?? seems like a waste of time and money to me.
im not having a personal go, im all for new toys and getting the good gear, but i see it as a major issue.
for instance if we have a rescue in coromandel valley and for some reason blackwood cannot roll there rescue, the defualt will go to eden hills (its happened a few times)... and basically (from my personal knowledge... which ill admit isnt completely comprehensive) a combi-tool isnt sufficient equipment to effect rescue of a single entrapment or multiple trapped personseffect rescue. so what happens then? a second default? this time to MFS? if we are still estimating the chance of a persons survival by using the "golden hour" theory, then weve just cut there odds by delaying rescue
my personal thoughts/concern only...
-
Well, if the R/R Directory remains the same, (as in obligations, etc.) I would almost definately expect Eden Hills to be removed as heavy rescue response. As obviously, they don't carry the gear. ( Correct me if wrong steveg)
eden hills will fail to qualify as a rescue resource full stop, not just a heavy rescue. therefore rescue should no longer be there role anywhere, this is why i dont understand the logic behind purchasing the new equipment!!!
the funds that were spent on this rescue tool that technically should never be used could have been spent on the auxillary pump eden need.
in regards to default rescue for coro, without eden hills i should think it would fall to either st marys MFS or stirling CFS
-
409 or 439 (Christies) I'd say if it was west of coro station. I can't see the MFS saying no they won't respond to a RCR in CFS area, it's really a duty of care situation.
When I was a Yankalilla in 1993 we called for MFS assistance with a rescue at Myponga Beach, grader rollover from bridge and had to call for heavier rescue equipment. Response time was a bit long, but they still got there and did the job. It was 204 from the City then in the pod format!
-
No question, MFS will go anywhere they are asked to, it doesn't make sense to send Meadows or Burnside, that would be negligent due to response times, MFS will always have a rescue available, somewhere, and if worse comes to worse, get Eden Hills on the way, there is nothing that says you can't start a rescue with a combi tool, you just can't go on your own, all they would have to do is ask the responding rescue appliance their ETA, and is its not within reason, start getting to work?
Just what I think is logical.
-
definitely makes sense tio start getting to work with the combi tool, but im just saying,, i cant understand the reasoning behind the purchase of it.
-
If you call for them, fair enough, they wont say no, but they may not be first response.
Any way.... back to peoples favourite Rescue Tool! :wink:
-
You're right about MFS responding anywhere, I believe they sent 204 to an animal rescue near Williamstown a couple of months ago at the request of the local brigade.
As far as rescue tools go, Morphett Vale is not a rescue brigade so we don't have much exposure to hydraulic rescue gear, we do however carry a Dewalt 18 volt reciprocating saw kit which we have used a number of times at training to demolish cars. We use the cars in training but it would be unlikely we would perform any sort of extrication duties at a job (MFS respond to all our rescues), we do however use it all the time at car fires to cut the locking mechanism on the bonnet and at structure fires for making quick access through gates or roller doors etc, not quite as good as a quick cut saw but it gets the job done.
-
I was at a group meeting approximately 12 months ago with an RO there. The discussion came up about combi tools and rescues. We were told that brigades with combi tools can respond to rescues in there area and do the work but a heavy rescue brigade must also be responded.
-
I was at a group meeting approximately 12 months ago with an RO there. The discussion came up about combi tools and rescues. We were told that brigades with combi tools can respond to rescues in there area and do the work but a heavy rescue brigade must also be responded.
thankyou...
this is exactly what i have been trying to say only in a differant way, the heavy rescue ahs to be responded becasue it would be the road crash resource for the area.
-
I thought that was a known fact. :?
-
As far as RCR goes - despite all of our opinions, thoughts and assumptions, it is reassuring to know that when a call is made that one of the dispatch bodies will refer to the RCRRD (Road Crash Rescue Resource Directory) and ensure that the appropriate resource is responded.
As for making changes - that is done at a Regional level and where a change will effect another service sign off is required by all services - a little over the top and time consuming, however it has previous prevented the domination by any one service. Deciding who responds, was in the last update a combination of local knowledge, ground truthing and computer modeling - very effective. Once a change is made, the CRD centre are notified immediately to allow their electronic dispatch databases to immediately reflect the change - due to cost though the printed versions are only updated every couple of years.
Now my favorite rescue tool - a shunt/break knife - introduced to SA by FARA from the eastern states and sensational at allowing easy access through locked doors without doing the unnecessary damage created by hooligan tools,jemmy bars and sledge hammers - basically you tap it past the lock, recessing the locking mechanism/bolt back into the lock body and then open the door - can also be used on windows and alike - not a good option though for the roller doors in the Mitcham Shopping centre though :wink:
-
We Were given the choice of losing the rescue gear altogether, or keeping the equipment that we now have. it has been proven that this gear will do %95 of the work we need to do.
As fas as responding to rescue jobs, we should always have a heavy rescue appliance on route as well.
Most of our members are also maintaining their rescue training, so in the event that blackwood are unable to respond a crew, or are short crewed, we will still be able to do the rescue with their equipment.
-
Why were u given to option to loose the HVY, and or get the Rapid?
Was it decided that its just not needed, or some one just decided they didnt want you having it? Or did you guys not want it ?
-
It is my understanding that we were going to lose rescue altogether, as there was other brigades that needed the heavy gear more than us. after much debate at all levels, the compromise was reached that we would be issued the R.I.G. or nothing at all.
the gear is capable of most things we do at the moment anyway, as has been proven. As far as responding to rescue jobs, there will always be a Heavy rescue appliance\crew on the way as well. That could be blackwood, and or 409 or any other Heavy rescue brigade as needed.
GT- you asked about where it has been stowed, The drivers side full height locker is designed for rescue gear.
the PPV fan is in the drivers side middle locker ( above the wheel).
-
Well, at least you got R.I.V instead of loosing it all together.
Has it been used in anger yet ?............. or still waiting for the pager to drop on that one :-)
-
Nah, havent used it yet. Patience is a virtue.... :x
-
it probably never will be used in anger... heavy rescue at St. MArys and Blackwood. 2 minutes away in either direction...
-
Either way - good to see Eden maintaining rescue equipment!
It wasn't that many years ago (well maybe 10+) that Belair also carried Rescue equipment, which was sent to KI - no replacement offered. Interesting now though, although very unfortunately, that the majority of serious accidents in the Sturt Group area have occurred in the Belair response area!
The positive side - rescue, heavy surrounds Belair and the Sturt Group - Blackwood, Stirling, St Marys, Burnside, Adelaide and down south Meadows.
Its reassuring to know that if you are fortunate enough to live in the Adelaide Hills that we are surrounded by Rescue Equipment and competent trained operators!!!! If only this was the case across the state.
-
Alex, clearly you have a problem with us carrying this gear. I personally believe that regardless of wether it gets used once a week or once every 2 years, it is a good thing to have.I wonder, Would your opinion be the same if a person were pinned in their seat and bleeding out, on the main road, when there is a freight train going past, slowing blackwoods responce by several minutes?409 is frequently out on jobs, and from there the next appliance is some while away? With this gear, we can provide rapid rescue from most situations, knowing that there will always be a heavy rescue appliance coming to back us up, even if it is ten minutes away.
As a service, it is our job to protect the community, and I reckon that anything we can use to help in this role is a good thing.
-
Thats absoloutly right steve. Even down to the point of crew, all it needs it Blackwood to have a day when there is no crew around, and you are it, untill either Saint Mary's (If they are home) or elsewhere arrive...
-
Alex, clearly you have a problem with us carrying this gear. I personally believe that regardless of wether it gets used once a week or once every 2 years, it is a good thing to have.I wonder, Would your opinion be the same if a person were pinned in their seat and bleeding out, on the main road, when there is a freight train going past, slowing blackwoods responce by several minutes?409 is frequently out on jobs, and from there the next appliance is some while away? With this gear, we can provide rapid rescue from most situations, knowing that there will always be a heavy rescue appliance coming to back us up, even if it is ten minutes away.
As a service, it is our job to protect the community, and I reckon that anything we can use to help in this role is a good thing.
i dont know if you just havent been reading my posts... or chose to ignore them.
neway... i have no problem with you guys carrying the gear!!!!!
my problem is that you are no longer a rescue brigade because of the gear that has been changed over to, and also the fact that you wanted money for an auxillary pump..
all my comments have been supporting you guys saying you should have kept HEAVY RESCUE!!!!
-
Alex, I apologise. We have misinterpreted some of your posts, and appreciate your support. We agree that we should have kept the heavy rescue, however we were not given the choice of keeping it. The R.I.G was the best we could hope for.
this is not the place to get into the Auxillary Pump, being a discussion forum aimed at vehicle rescue.
Anyway, i have to say, having used the R.I.G. on a vehicle the other night, it seems like a really good bit of gear. lighter to use, the pump weighs bugger-all, and for Popping doors, cutting pillars and such its just fine.
-
After using various tools, both styles, makes and brands, I have to say the ONLY one 'complaint' as such, with that Holmatro set, and most of there sets, are the Hand/wrist swivel lever... (EG, some sets have a thumb lever, you turn each way, holmatro's set u are holding the level, and swivel it left or right)
I found, and only on a couple of occasions, when popping doors or cutting pillars at a higher level - EG - waist, to shoulder height, that you would inadvertanly open or close the hydrolics in movement of the tool.. Example, lifting the tool to nearly shoulder height to cut the top of a pillar, or pop the door that is caught between the roof and crushed pillar, as you are getting into position, because you are supporting the weight in both arms, the swivel occasionally opend or closed.. One reason, when using tools with the thumb switch, were more benificial, as this didnt happen.. Altho, then you find the times you have the tool in the right spot, and you cant reach the lever with your thumb.......... :roll:
** Waiting for the day, rescue tools work via Mind Control :lol: 8-) **
-
I have not experienced it as a problem yet, but i can definately see the potential for problems with the twist lever. I dont know why they went away from the Lucas gear, which had the thumb wheel right round the handle, so it oculd be reached no matter the angle you were on. plus the holmatro twist handle seems to be made from a heavy plastic, as opposed to aluminium or steel. dont know how firefighter-proof that will be? any ideas?
-
If you are new to Holmatro it won't take long to become a convert Lucas is a relatively new addition to CFS and imo is not as user friendly as Holmatro.
The current series of Holmatro is easy and quick to couple up and is very easy to use. I personally don't find the Lucas thumb lever easy to use but the holmatro style is great.
In the end these are not design flaws on either side but come down to user preference. Often the gear you first use becomes your favourite.
-
Having been a RARTO/RCRTO I been exposed to Holmatro, Hurst and Lucas gear and found they really are much of a muchness between all of them. I started with some really old Holmatro Series 1 gear at Yankalilla, which was classed as Heavy Rescue Gear and used to have to just use a hand pump until we got the petrol pump in about 1993.
I'd have to say though that I've found the weight balance of the Holmatro gear to be about right, with most of the tools giving an equal weight in both hands in most working positions. The Hurst Spreaders I've found to be a bit awkward with the tool handle thumb switch combination and they are a bit short from butt to tip.
I'd like to see all services go to a standard supply though so gears is easily interchangable at incidents and we could end up with a significant reserve of equipment in the state for replacement during time of service and repair!
-
aint that the truth, about having a standard that we all stick with.
I have to agree about ease of coupling with the holmatro, no twist-lock on the couplings will prove to be a godsend when its 2am and pouring with rain.
balance is good on the RIG, when coupled to the pump. weight is also good for prolonged use.
Dont know for sure, but dont the Mets all carry Holmatro gear? i have also heard a whisper that all their appliances carry RIG. Anybody know for sure?
-
All MFS General Purpose Pumpers carry rapid intervention (Holmatro combi tool).
-
do you know if they get a lot of use out of them, or do they usually get booted when HR appliance arrives?
I imagine they would also use them a lot for other things, forced entry etc??
-
MFS do use them allot - as you know it's a quick and easy tool and often by just popping a door they can allow SAAS entry and patient removal.
Also good as a primary entry tool (the original reason given when they were put on each pump several years ago when questioned by the RCRSC = Road Crash Rescue Steering Committee).
Although as with any tool only as good as the operator, their competency and the task at hand - they tried both a combi tool and a disc cutter at Mitcham shopping centre fire and ultimately all forced entries were gained with either a hooligan tool or jemmy bar! Although they did use them extremely successfully at the shopping centre fires down Findon way to gain entry!
-
I have heard of many a times when RIV gear has popped a door etc, prior to HR arrival.
Also, the RIV sets come in useful, when the HR arrives, and needs a second tool set, with the second HR a number of mins away.
-
Back on favourite rescue gear - I have only used Holmatro and Hurst at STC. We have always used Lucas (old gear was Fag Lucas - new gear is Lucas) and I guess we just love what we have :-) I understand the Hurst is excellent but seemed very cumbersome and heavy. Didn't like Holmatro seemed lightweight and cumbersome, also couldn't get used to not having no thumb control.
-
Re
when there is a freight train going past, slowing blackwoods responce by several minutes?409
This is not a problem, we would go up Edgecumbe Pde then go down Coromandel Pde. When we come out of East Tce we have a clear look at the train line, just clearing things up.
PS I like Eden's new appliance
-
unless you were going specifically to east tce, you'd probly go up hewitt ave to get to main rd anyway to avoid the stop sign though, wouldnt you?
-
Yes, we do go up hewitt ave.
-
I remember our old hurst gear. By no means do i claim it to be the best gear out there.
We had a combi tool, which got used at pretty much every accident we went to....
Short and long ram. I have to say i like the feet on the hurst rams a lot better. Dont slide anywhere near as easily.
and a set of heavy spreaders...... Now you could only use this thing for about 5 minutes (cause it was so HEAVY) and was always recommended to have someone assisting so you could extend that time out a bit.
as well as cutters of course - but they were very rarely used.
Not the easiest gear to use by far, but i think one of the more fuctional sets ive seen....
and lets not forget the hooligan tool :-D
-
My votes still with the halligan tool.. (Or hooligan, as some say... :-P )
Nothing beats it.. :-)
-
I would have to say holmatro has my vote.
The open and close mechanism actually requires a reasonable force to operate, it doesn't just move around whenever you move the tool so its not really an issue.
-
I gues it would come down to servicing and care of the tools as to how well they are maintained.
-
Well, we had cause to use the Holmatro Combi-tool the other day. :-)
we had a car run up the back of a truck, and get wedged in such a wau we had to cut the A pillar to serarate th evehicles ( NO injuries).
we were all really pleased with the flexibility of the tool, not to mention the light weight of the pump and tool combined.
Needless to say, really pleased with the gear, am happy to use it again.