SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: Bagyassfirey on January 12, 2009, 03:30:41 PM
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First real nasty Fire day 2 Mora....DONT PANIC PEOPLE :mrgreen:
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Oh OH Oh OH Oh OHHHHH! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Wet stuff on the hot stuff still...even your cars...my car registered 38.4c after 3 hours in the Wakefield Street Sun today. even sitting on the seat was a Hazmat!
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The state is a tinderbox! We're heading for the worst year on record! These are the same conditions that were experienced before Ash Wednesday!
Did I miss anything?
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The state is a tinderbox! We're heading for the worst year on record! These are the same conditions that were experienced before Ash Wednesday!
Did I miss anything?
"We have 14 aircraft and one high capacity 7500 litre chopper that can save the world in minutes"........... :roll:
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The state is a tinderbox! We're heading for the worst year on record! These are the same conditions that were experienced before Ash Wednesday!
Did I miss anything?
"We have 14 aircraft and one high capacity 7500 litre chopper that can save the world in minutes"........... :roll:
lmao Mac, gold......of course...how quickly they forget
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The state is a tinderbox! We're heading for the worst year on record! These are the same conditions that were experienced before Ash Wednesday!
Did I miss anything?
GROUNDHOG DAY! :-D
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Thanks guys! I knew I could rely on a few of ya to brighten my day up!! :-D
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Port lincoln/Tulka looks like its gonna be a big job...
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yea i see they dragged a bomber away from MLR...hold on to ya knickers Tulka...AGAIN!!
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Two Helitaks and the Crane, covering MLR now.
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strike teams coming in from upper EP...Flyn Mite end up in Port Lincoln...Now that would get MLR residents knickers in a knot!
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i see helitak 733 has been responded now.
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yea its nasty by sound of it MFS apliances being responded..
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yea its nasty by sound of it MFS apliances being responded..
So nasty infact, that SAMFS was the first service turned out to it!
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sky crane currently on route...
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what an absolute joke......a moderate sizes fire ( it can't even be called a big fire) and just about all the air assetts in the state are converged on one little bit of real estate.
Yeah yeah, I know its all as a response to Wangarry and the Coroner and all that crap......but u know....if someone else's town in SA burns today..then the same questions are going to be asked and the same barbs will be thrown....it's about time we had a really hard look at what we do with aircraft because this sort of kneejerk response is b/s. 100,000 people live in a bushfire prone zone called the Mt Lofty Ranges than do in a bit of mallee scrub on the outskirts of Pt Lincoln. Poor risk assessment here, imho. Sure...there will be public scrutiny of the decision, and even some tough questions, but it goes with making the tough calls.
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have u ever been to port lincoln mr teddy? seen the industrial area on south side of lincoln which houses the multi million dollar fish farms and the fish factory?
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My cousins house is 1 km north of where the fire is and knowing that area if the wind changes to a S/W or S there will be a huge risk to the public.
I dont think it been too big of an over reaction.
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thank you big al...after all it is The SOUTH AUSTRALIAN Country Fire Service...Not The Mount Lofty Country Fire Service :wink:
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And speaking to a few people involved in the IMT, the fire was "going like a rocket" and crews were struggling to get to it.
FDI at one point was over 100 - difficult conditions to fight any fire in.
Further news reports have indicated that at least 2 houses have been destroyed, along with a Tuna Processing Plant and numerous sheds.
I think sending some extra resources, including aerial resources is well & truly justified.
Pip
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Seen the FDI for lincoln as high as 147 today
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leaving on a strike team at 1830
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Seen the FDI for lincoln as high as 147 today
tis now around 190 at 4:30pm
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Thanks guys! I knew I could rely on a few of ya to brighten my day up!! :-D
Im guessing the boredom of having no call outs today has gotten to you as well Katrina :-P
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yep....been there, worked there....the point is?
saw the vision tonight.....stick by my opinion.....yes it had big flames that attract newscrews....yes fdi blah blah....yes there was a couple of houses and multi million $$ factories (which you might say could have affored something in terms of their own level of self protection) affected.....but the risk to the town?....seriously??.....under a northerly travelling south.....coast line to the east...and a windchange through west to southwest.....u tell me where the danger is please?.....u might even get ur oysters grilled for ur dinner?....thats about it
I knew I'd get the response I did.......my friend has a house there so everything should be sent there....really?....what a level of justification is that?
Yes, we are the South Australian CFS.....and we left the rest of SA, with its ar_se hanging out.....big roll of the dice is all i'm saying
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CFS have made a good call by sending in more aircraft to this fire and its sad to read some of the crap in the Advertiser about our slow responce to this fire and that CFS volunteers need or should be paid....How hard is it in this day and age for the public to come to terms that we still have members of the community who are willing,able and at the drop of a pager tone are able to rush to their aid.
I dont know about anyone else but Robert I am happy that my pager did not go off today in the heat,wind and low R/H it would have been filtered hard to stop any large fast moving grass or forest fire...Lets all stay safe and come home....
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Can see your point Tedster, it was a big call sending most of SA's aerial capability to this fire, but this risk would have been managed by swamping any out breaks here in MLR with strike team after strike team!.
You can only fight the fires you have and put measures in place for other eventualities and if push came to shove, a recall could of had the aircraft back in Adelaide in two hours
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yea its nasty by sound of it MFS apliances being responded..
So nasty infact, that SAMFS was the first service turned out to it!
Probably because it is MFS area.......
Pip
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i can see your point as well mister teddy...I'm all for not going stupid on resources.......
.....and yes..i'm just a baggy arsed ambo........
....BUT...
.....some of the biggest fires we've had in this state of the last few years have been over there for a reason...and no - I'm not knocking the local firey's!
and western approach road is wide...but will it stop a wind change (as predicted by the the 100% accurate BOM) pushing the front back across it- straight into Lincoln South? (yes - I know it could prob do with a cleanout...but don't know if the coroner would see it that way....... :evil:)
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Mr Teddy, were you the IC for the wangary fire by any chance ?
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LOL
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i think Mister Teddy is trying to highlight the "Tunnel vision" approach to large fires. BUT, it seemed the rest of the state was being managed well.
The CFS needs to be ready for Multiple Large Fires. maybe even TWO or THREE in the same region.
ARE YOU BUSHFIRE READY?
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You attack the fire you have not the one you might have. There are smart people that are fully aware of state resource requirements and risk planning. You know with some peoples attitudes CFS can't win, they either throw too few resources at something or too many. When will people say "good job CFS you made a great decision". If your area is burning and there are bombers sitting on the ground elsewhere I bet you guys say "send more bombers!!!!"
Why do we persist in second guessing a response when we are not part of the decision making process.
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Mr Teddy, were you the IC for the wangary fire by any chance ?
obviously not.....we didnt get that right either :wink:
Its very kind of you guys to take the shots at the guy asking the questions, querying the actions, and questioning the responses, as I said, I did expect it....but please remember that we can stand around patting ourselves on the back and telling ourselves how wonderful we are (or in this case how lucky we were)..... but thats not how u improve your response planning. Asking the hard questions, getting people to justify their actions (with fact, not emotion or heresay)- that drives accountability, which i know is not in the vernacular for most CFS people - its much easier to say.....awww, we're just volunteers we do what we can, when it all gets too hard.
Hopefully we wont get to the point where we stop being able to question decisions openly as a means of stimulating learning and getting "reasoned" discussion. That would be a sad day.
Ahhh froggie....let's leave the poor minions in the dark, unquestioning the actions of those above them, happy in their serfdom to The Man - mate that attitude went out in the 50s. I think if you check the BFF1 OHS Unit and in fact every other piece of Safety related information in the Service...."if you see something you dont like.....speak up" If you view all of the above as review and analysis and questioning, instead of second guessing.....then your glass may become half full.
In another life I worked for a while with Peter Cosgrove.....a pretty smart man when it came to operations and planning, particularly in the nasty stuff. He would always remind his officers at the time - If you can't justify a plan to those that are going to undertake it - then u dont have a plan.....just an order
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Well said mate! And if you believe the Mayor of the town the Skycrane saved the day again :wink:
And when is CFS going to acknowledge officially that they don't have thousands of volunteers? 15000 in one media statement prior to the fire, 11,000 in the report - why not tell the truth?
But Firefrog is right in one area - if everyone keeps bagging your organisation (including members of your own service) then you will always be in the wrong.
It's a fine balancing act between questioning & acknowledging!
The general may have been enlightened but a lot of his peers & subordinates would have questioned that logic (privately of course)& certainly didn't practice it.
Anyway at least the fire got people away from the american stats thread :-D
cheers
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Hear Hear Teddy and Chook!
American Volly's have it much tougher than us....But they still love to go above the call of duty :)
Interesting to note, Water sources for Helitaks were little to none. Even the Crane couldnt touch the Sea. Floating Collar Dams pretty much.
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and yes..i'm just a baggy arsed ambo
Sounds like you need to join the CFS matrix and gain valuable experience as well as good knowledge to help with your SAAS work :-)
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Mister teddy all i want to say is you fight the fire you have, not the one you may get...
One the worst days that fires can occur aircraft are often grounded and become useless, so they used them why they could, what ever happened to a fire being fought by fire trucks and ground crew, you have all become too dependent on the aircraft, one day there will be too many fires and what will you all do, say this is too big for us and go home. pull your heads in.
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Hey Al - is their house ok??
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Yeah they evacuated until late last night but no problems. Scared the crap outta the kids but good wake up call
Hopefully he'll clear his property properly now after seeing that.
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as amended
Mister teddy all I want to say is (that)you fight the fire you have, not the one you may get...
One the worst days that fires can occur aircraft are often grounded and become useless, so they used them whywhen or while they could . What ever happened to a fire being fought by fire trucksappliances and ground crew? You have all become too dependent on the aircraft,; one day there will be too many fires and what will you all do, say this is too big for us and go home? Pull your heads in !
Grammar maketh the argument :evil:
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here's an idea.....what is the criteria for shifting air resources?
Is it $$$risk, is it human risk, is it 1 asset per alarm upgrade, is it whim or personal choice? Is it who can get to the SARC or DSC first? Anyone know?
Maybe, just maybe, if you get caught in a situation like 2005 again, then u could argue that your criteria didnt allow for the situation and can be amended with research and experience, but not that your organisation failed to respond appropriately (assuming u follow your criteria that is).
If you have a logical and needs driven plan and it doesnt work, well then the plan was wrong. If you don't have a plan and it doesnt work.....then the organisation is wrong
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and yes..i'm just a baggy arsed ambo
Sounds like you need to join the CFS matrix and gain valuable experience as well as good knowledge to help with your SAAS work :-)
lol
had my fireman experience - still got the T shirt to prove it.....
Politics in SAAS is much easier to deal with.....and don't get me started on the ego's!!
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Incident controller > Regional Duty officer > DSC > SARC > Air Desk > BOBS YOUR UNCLE.
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Incident controller > Regional Duty officer > DSC > SARC > Air Desk > BOBS YOUR UNCLE.
SNIP AND A TUCK, NOW BOB'S YOUR AUNTY :-D
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poor bob, bob bob bob!
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The Ash Wednesday fire of 1983, a huge dust storm was also sweeping across Adelaide, which would have grounded a lot of aircraft had we had the aerial resources we have now.
Before we get lost in the media hype of "lets all hail the Skycrane" I and every other brigade within cooee of Mt Lofty Ranges were working our absolute butts off, trying to save what we could with the resources we had. I was working as OIC of a Bedford appliance from Gomersal, and the crackle of the VHF radio was the same all over.....HELP HELP MAYDAY we're out of water, not to mention the numerous burnovers that occurred made for chilling listening!!
The sight of 30-40 cement mixers all lined up in a row along Strathalbyn Rd, and refilling us with water, and unfortunately stones(which rendered many appliances useless I must add) after filling up goes to show we cannot control the situation all the time.
Sadly we have lost many volunteers, and are nowhere near the strength service we once were, due to a variety of reasons.
When Stuart Ellis was still CO we had almsot 18,000 volunteers, now its under 10,000 :-o
The Port Lincoln fires so close to the city say one thing, that there has not been enough hazard reduction done by DEH and others to reduce the fuel load to prevent a high intensity fire from impacting the town.
In the 2000/01 Blue Mountains fires the fuel loads in a lot of the areas we worked in were 40-50 tonnes per hectare...what hope have us as crews got of controlling that, and the conditions were similar to Port Lincoln.
We will have another NASTY fire yet, the question is when!
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Last official figures I saw was almost 16,000 members (but not 16,000 firefighters)
As for the 18,000 members previously, many of them were ladies auxiliary - who did catering and fundraising...with most brigades around the state having many auxiliary members.
A big clean up of membership records was done several years ago and the numbers dropped from around 18,000, to somewhere around 15,000. At the time the cleanup was done, the actual number of people on the ground didn't really change much....they just removed names of people who were residing in the cemetery, the local nursing home, some other state etc etc.....
So when the CFS now talk of around 16,000 members, and around 11,000 firefighters. The rest are Ops Support and cadets. Although this is not a good indicator if available resources, as many Ops Support people are radio operators, IMT personnel etc, who are actively and directly participating in the firefighting effort....
As for cleaning up properties - over 75% of the land burnt in the Proper Bay fire was PRIVATE land...not DEH. And having been in the exact area only two days before this fire, there were many many business owners and householders who had certainly not grasped the bushfire ready message, and had done nothing to prepare their properties against fire
Despite what some high profile locals have said in the media, it is not the Native vegetation Act that stops people from cutting the grass on their properties!!
Pip
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Anyone here actually go to the lincoln fire????
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I was on lincoln 34p the first CFS appliance on the fire ground and as far as i see it the response from lincoln base was very fast with the first appliance out the door within minutes of the page...I would like to thanks all the guys that took the time and came over on strike teams, if it wasn't for you guys lincoln would probably no longer exist. Also without the air assets we had we would have been in big trouble...with the combined efforts of SAMFS, DEH, SES, CFS appliances and air assetts we managed to save A LOT of lives, houses and sheds on tuesday so thanks guys
:)
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yea mate i was on the R4 strike team..ya did a awsum job in trying conditions :-)
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yea its nasty by sound of it MFS apliances being responded..
So nasty infact, that SAMFS was the first service turned out to it!
Probably because it is MFS area.......
Pip
That was exactly what I was trying to imply...
i think Mister Teddy is trying to highlight the "Tunnel vision" approach to large fires. BUT, it seemed the rest of the state was being managed well.
The CFS needs to be ready for Multiple Large Fires. maybe even TWO or THREE in the same region.
ARE YOU BUSHFIRE READY?
The CFS will never be ready for multiple large fires in the state. There are just not enough resources. The '05 fires were pushing the boundaries of the CFS's capabilities with only two major fires. If there had been any other fires of a large size (Had Mt. Bold not been knocked down earlier in the day for example) it would well have been game over for the MLR.
Mister teddy all i want to say is you fight the fire you have, not the one you may get...
One the worst days that fires can occur aircraft are often grounded and become useless, so they used them why they could, what ever happened to a fire being fought by fire trucks and ground crew, you have all become too dependent on the aircraft, one day there will be too many fires and what will you all do, say this is too big for us and go home. pull your heads in.
Stop posting drunk mate. :wink:
The age old saying "Fight the fire you have, not the one you might have" is great, to a point, but at the same time we still need to keep in mind the risks we have to cover. This is the same concept behind not turning out every truck in your station to every nonsense call, just because you can.
Who is this 'you' you're talking about? Personally I hate having the aircraft around - it ruins the fun, although there are a number of people, mianly the general public, who think the aircraft are gods gift to firefighting (Thanks a lot media dept.) but to tar all of 'us' with that brush, is more than a little rough.
As far as the decisions made to move air support on the day, one would hope that the decisions were made based on what would be best operationally as well as what could still cover the areas of risk around the state. I'm sure that there was no external pressure, no bias and no political game playing at all, especially not only a few days after the anniversary of the '05 Lincoln Incident... none at all...
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Sarcasm detector just made a BEEP noise :-D
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Stop posting drunk mate. :wink:
The age old saying "Fight the fire you have, not the one you might have" is great, to a point, but at the same time we still need to keep in mind the risks we have to cover. This is the same concept behind not turning out every truck in your station to every nonsense call, just because you can.
Who is this 'you' you're talking about? Personally I hate having the aircraft around - it ruins the fun, although there are a number of people, mianly the general public, who think the aircraft are gods gift to firefighting (Thanks a lot media dept.) but to tar all of 'us' with that brush, is more than a little rough.
As far as the decisions made to move air support on the day, one would hope that the decisions were made based on what would be best operationally as well as what could still cover the areas of risk around the state. I'm sure that there was no external pressure, no bias and no political game playing at all, especially not only a few days after the anniversary of the '05 Lincoln Incident... none at all...
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Having aircraft around ruins the fun?????? What the???? What fun are u talking about???
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Mister teddy all i want to say is you fight the fire you have, not the one you may get...
One the worst days that fires can occur aircraft are often grounded and become useless,
so they used them why they could, what ever happened to a fire being fought by fire trucks and ground crew, you have all become too dependent on the aircraft, one day
there will be too many fires and what will you all do, say this is too big for us and
go home. pull your heads in.
Ahhhh soooo Big Bronto...
You arguing that the Pt Lincoln people were being too dependant upon the extra
aircraft & should have stuck to their appliances....
That's a brave call !!! :wink:
"fight the fire you have, not the one you might get" is only true if you are
on a local fireground, & even then not fully. From BFF1, remember the word
"Exposures"...
Goes hand-in-hand with the word "Risk".
The further up the food-chain, the wider & larger the risks. And exposures.
Doubtless SARC consulted their risk matrix & decided the near-certainty of
catastrophe by not redeploying, outweighed the mere possibility of Bad Things
happening if they did. Tough call, but probably the right one on the day.
At least in the Hills, with all brigades on active stand-by, there are enough
appliances around to give us a fair chance of whacking out-breaks while they
are small.
Irrespective of aircraft redeployments, we were all very lucky last Tuesday.
cheers
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Air support has come a long way since it was introducted in Australia we should be thankful that we have it and its always good to see it over head when we need it. CFS made a good call sending more aircraft to this fire and I stand by that. It has been said over and over again deal with the fire you have at hand and if one other does pop up you then deal with that. I am sure that CFS did have some plan's in place just in case something else did pop up I know down here we can always call on for help from CFA with aircraft if needed.
The other thing to remember what did we use to do in the past when we had no aircraft?? We used fire appliances....and we still do when air support is not around....
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No Mr Julian i was saying that if another fire popped up some where else god help us if it is the mt lofty ranges how will we do it the people there would have just handle it, do the job and do what they can.
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Nowadays, when brigades are on active standby anyway, we in the MLR have
probably got the best chance of containing ignition of anywhere in the
state through sheer weight of numbers. What are we looking at.... maybe
30% of all CFS brigades concentrated into 5% of SA land-mass ?
Actually wasn't disagreeing with you Mr Bronto. Just pointing out that
your choice of argument could be used against you. ;-)
cheers
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The use of aircraft at fires are only a part of the total responce, and after going to a workshop on working with aircraft the CFS will tell you that they are there to support the on ground work that we do as firey's. After being to fires where aircraft have and have not been responded the use of aircraft just to act as air observers can be very beneficial with aiding in the containment of that fire.
From working in various parts of the states Regions 6 has a large area of the state to cover arguably not as big as Region 4, and the number of personal they have available to them is not that great compared to regions 1 and 2. With the location of the tuna processing plants and other associated industry being on the fringe of the city these company's provide significant income for the city not to mention employment. As was mentioned eralier the risk matrix needs to be taken into consideration which could of allowed the redeployment of the aircraft to Lincoln. If Brigades in the both Regions 1 and 2 were on active or passive stand by this maybe interpreted as being an alternative to having aircraft stationed in these regions.
After seeing what occurred at Lincoln I would say the use of aircraft was a reasonable call as the fire did threaten both industrial and residential areas.
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Having aircraft around ruins the fun?????? What the???? What fun are u talking about???
Tongue firmly in cheek mate.
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ahh no worries numbers :-)
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what an absolute joke......a moderate sizes fire ( it can't even be called a big fire) and just about all the air assetts in the state are converged on one little bit of real estate.
Yeah yeah, I know its all as a response to Wangarry and the Coroner and all that crap......but u know....if someone else's town in SA burns today..then the same questions are going to be asked and the same barbs will be thrown....it's about time we had a really hard look at what we do with aircraft because this sort of kneejerk response is b/s. 100,000 people live in a bushfire prone zone called the Mt Lofty Ranges than do in a bit of mallee scrub on the outskirts of Pt Lincoln. Poor risk assessment here, imho. Sure...there will be public scrutiny of the decision, and even some tough questions, but it goes with making the tough calls.
Maybe something to do with the millions (dollar wise) in assets threatened/ lost.. ?
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what an absolute joke......a moderate sizes fire ( it can't even be called a big fire) and just about all the air assetts in the state are converged on one little bit of real estate.
Yeah yeah, I know its all as a response to Wangarry and the Coroner and all that crap......but u know....if someone else's town in SA burns today..then the same questions are going to be asked and the same barbs will be thrown....it's about time we had a really hard look at what we do with aircraft because this sort of kneejerk response is b/s. 100,000 people live in a bushfire prone zone called the Mt Lofty Ranges than do in a bit of mallee scrub on the outskirts of Pt Lincoln. Poor risk assessment here, imho. Sure...there will be public scrutiny of the decision, and even some tough questions, but it goes with making the tough calls.
Maybe something to do with the millions (dollar wise) in assets threatened/ lost.. ?
So will an inquest on the MFS's handling of this fire occur? I believe it was MFS area going by the initial page, they were responded 1st up by themselves (even though it was a scheiße of a day)?
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Let's keep this discussion well away from speculation on any investigation or inquiry.
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Maybe something to do with the millions (dollar wise) in assets threatened/ lost.. ?
and hence the knockon effect to YOUR insurance premiums in the future....
[sings]the leg bone is connected to the...health department, the health department is connected to.....medicare...medicare is connected to the...government....the government gets it's cash from....Us mob.....us mob pay insurance to the .......CORPORATE PPUSSYCATS.....the corporate pussycats have mates in the .....Government.....the government is connected to the....TAX OFFICE.....[\sings]
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At least we didnt have Black Tuesday II due to all 3 fire fighting agencies working together with farmers and most likely council workers to prevent it from doing more damage than it had already done
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Yes i'm sure all the farmers in their utes with their garden hoses really helped :-P :-D
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ease up big al dont stir us farmers up... :wink:
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Yes i'm sure all the farmers in their utes with their garden hoses really helped :-P :-D
mmm..let me think back to when i was on the farm in WA many moons ago....in the shearing shed and watch a lightning strike start a stubble fire - down tools....in the trucks - out there in 2 mins...fire out and back to the shearing...only to have the local firey's turn up 30 mins later looking for a fire........
no...you're right.......farmers and their hoses really are worthless......
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to right matrix...there would be numerous of call outs a year that brigades spend time driving around lookin 4 a fire cos us farmers have gone in put it out n gone home again before they can slide their strides on a leave the shed :-D
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Not saying they're not a help worked with them many times, was just a comment aimed more at the Pt lincoln fire. :-)
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hhmmm well i saw quite a few "farmers units" at Pt Lincoln so not exactly sure what ur trying to get at...
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:roll: Sheesh never mind too hard, and people take it to heart to much.
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looks like they are throwing everything at a grass fire @ bridgwater...are we going to say thats over resourcing i don think so......
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No just Lofty group procedure :-D
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Sounds like its contained anyway, downgrading some crews to P2
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nice long trips for some brigades.....meanwhile everything East of Verdun (resources) untouched.
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bahahahahaha 1 ha burnt...talk about a traffic jam. end of arguement about over rescourcing. :lol:
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800 Sqm, 80 FF's, that's 10SQM each.
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lol :wink: and the fixed wings n helitaks n the sky crane dropped where??? i think the point has been made.
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On a different note I have noticed that some Group Officer / Brigades are encouraging active stand by or passive stand by. I alway thought that it would be best to tell the BC if you are available on days of fire bans. The way that some Brigades / Groups choose the stand by is what I can sense is pretty ad hoc. As one page indicated that no need for standby in Group X when the neighbouring Group Y wants stand by.
Can some one please tell me what is the thinking and rational behind this?
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Some brigades and groups only go on stand by when the FDI hits above 50.
This way you might have some people leave work later in the day, most fireban days the FDI reach 50 after lunch.
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i think the group ur talking about (para) only goes on standby when FDI is above 60 or 70....anything below 60 isnt that serious enough to spend hours at the station.
My brigade does it when the temperature is above 40c. just to avoid spending ages in the sun by containing it faster.
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I've only ever known active standbys to fire up at FDI's above 50, but at the same time on days that aren't looking so good, its nothing to have 5-10 people hanging around the station.
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800 Sqm, 80 FF's, that's 10SQM each.
a wet sack and a rake for each FF - who needs appliances.....
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I've only ever known active standbys to fire up at FDI's above 50, but at the same time on days that aren't looking so good, its nothing to have 5-10 people hanging around the station.
If this is related to FDI then some pastoral / near pastoral and beyond the black stump brigades would be on standby for 3/4 of the year. Where I live it is not uncommon for the FDI to be above 50 even on days of 30. Mind you saltbush does burn without assistance.
Mind you after the Bridgewater fire I wonder how many truck and crews I can get to one of our 20 sq m fires of burning grass
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If this is related to FDI then some pastoral / near pastoral and beyond the black stump brigades would be on standby for 3/4 of the year. Where I live it is not uncommon for the FDI to be above 50 even on days of 30. Mind you saltbush does burn without assistance.
Mind you after the Bridgewater fire I wonder how many truck and crews I can get to one of our 20 sq m fires of burning grass
Its all about knowing your local area. My local area can go like the clappers even in relatively mild conditions.
So after the Bridgewater fire, how many fire trucks does it take to stamp out a cigarette butt?
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looks like they are throwing everything at a grass fire @ bridgwater...are we going to say thats over resourcing i don think so......
Not necessarily over-resourcing [i wasn't there, so can't comment] but it certainly left a few holes.... ie both piccadilly & upper sturt appliances going? Why leave those stations empty for a fire over the hills and away? maybe the CFS need to do some move ups... ie a sturt group appliance to upper sturt & a summertown appliance to piccadilly... hmmmm ill try not to get ahead of myself.[just my opinion]
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On a different note I have noticed that some Group Officer / Brigades are encouraging active stand by or passive stand by.
Isn't the CFS on 'passive standby' 24/7?
Our area we go to active standby when local conditions get the FDI above 50.
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when you can see a nice big dark grey cloud of smoke billowing up in the middle of a highly populated area. Send any truck you get crew for and then release them ASAP which was pretty much the way things happened.
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Today was a great day for response gaps in an area the Mt. Lofty area. As long as no one mentions the gaps left by having 3 RCR resources tied up at the one job, or emptying a whole group for a scrubby while overlooking closer resources external to Lofty or East Torrens group...
;)
Now, someone said something about not posting drunk...?
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Cheers Numbers *finishes Beer oclock with a draught*
(http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6447413,00.jpg)
Just me or does that look like a massive Esky!
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That my friend, is an AWESOME esky. Hot chicks, and no doubt its full of cans of Bundy and coke, and maybe some Double Blacks for our lady friends!
Ahh, life is tough.
Cheers Zippy!
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Today was a great day for response gaps in an area the Mt. Lofty area. As long as no one mentions the gaps left by having 3 RCR resources tied up at the one job, or emptying a whole group for a scrubby while overlooking closer resources external to Lofty or East Torrens group...
;)
Now, someone said something about not posting drunk...?
Initial page to Norton Summit car rollover was Norton Summit brigade (fire) and Athelstone (rescue) as vehicle was down a extremely steep hill, on its side in a precarious position, Summertown (fire) and Stirling (rescue) were also dispatched.
Burnside rescue are apparentley auto dispatched by Lofty group as back up to Stirling who lately, have had crewing problems.
Both Norton Summit and Summertown brigades are the closest fire cover and Athelstone and Stirling are the closest rescue brigades, I think, thoughts?
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I think burnside was the closest rescue brigade in distance, and probably road speed aswell. Athelstone have a fair bit against them, ie long road routes and slower bendy roads.
Stirling would have indefinitely helped with possible Rope rescue if it was any steeper.
In regards to quickest road route, if a brigade has access to 100km/h roads...and makes them 10mins drive from the incident, and is physically further away. Meanwhile the other brigade has access to majority 70km/h roads, physically closer...maybe 12-15mins away. The quickest responding route is probably the best choice.
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Initial page to Norton Summit car rollover was Norton Summit brigade (fire) and Athelstone (rescue) as vehicle was down a extremely steep hill, on its side in a precarious position, Summertown (fire) and Stirling (rescue) were also dispatched.
Burnside rescue are apparentley auto dispatched by Lofty group as back up to Stirling who lately, have had crewing problems.
Both Norton Summit and Summertown brigades are the closest fire cover and Athelstone and Stirling are the closest rescue brigades, I think, thoughts?
Nothing terribly wrong with the response, I'm just not a big fan of having such a large gap in rescue coverage, especially when not all resources may be required.
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Initial page to Norton Summit car rollover was Norton Summit brigade (fire) and Athelstone (rescue) as vehicle was down a extremely steep hill, on its side in a precarious position, Summertown (fire) and Stirling (rescue) were also dispatched.
Burnside rescue are apparentley auto dispatched by Lofty group as back up to Stirling who lately, have had crewing problems.
Both Norton Summit and Summertown brigades are the closest fire cover and Athelstone and Stirling are the closest rescue brigades, I think, thoughts?
Nothing terribly wrong with the response, I'm just not a big fan of having such a large gap in rescue coverage, especially when not all resources may be required.
Ahmen!
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So how do you fix this? other than buying more rescue gear?
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releasing of resources not being utilised ;)
make less people do more work...which they might like? who knows?
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So how do you fix this? other than buying more rescue gear?
The best option, but the least viable is to stow a rapid intervention kit of combitool/ram etc (the basics) on a second vehicle in the brigade. This allows the provision of a rescue response if the Rescue appliance is ever tied up. Its something the should be strongly considered especially with the CFS push to move away from stand alone Rescue appliances. Some brigades already have this setup currently and from what I've been told it has paid off.
releasing of resources not being utilised ;)
make less people do more work...which they might like? who knows?
This is the other (cheaper) option. Using the above response for example, if Burnside are turning out to cover a lack of crew with Stirling, then they should be stopped as soon as Stirling is on the road and can confirm the have sufficient rescue operators. If things are going to be a protracted incident then you need to look at rescue CoQ.
And less people make for a far more efficient fireground anyhow, I'd rather 4 on a truck anyday!
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when you can see a nice big dark grey cloud of smoke billowing up in the middle of a highly populated area. Send any truck you get crew for and then release them ASAP which was pretty much the way things happened.
I have a little sympathy for the Incident Controller in this event, at least initially....
Report from the Bombers as they were airborne heading to the incident was, "smoke showing and building". Having been to an incident in that area 2 years ago. it's a pretty untidy area in terms of terrain, scrub and houses all mixed together. So asking to get a lot, wasnt too bad. What was interesting was to see some of the very average response times from some Brigades (considering the weather). The Helitacks were turned out early (considering they were at Mt Crawford) and the Aircrane from Brukunga was turned off early by the AAS. Considering its a 20 mins to get airborne option, it wouldn't have even engaged. Also interesting, Burnside turning themselves out again (before they're paged) for the second time in a few days. Maybe its time someone introduced them to mr pager, not mr scanner.
As for RCR resources, agree, bad management, but its compounded by a bad selection of vehicles used to stow RCR gear on in Lofty Group in general. Most of them are front running appliances to any job. Makes it difficult to "not" send them just to cover RCR.
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Maybe its time someone introduced them to mr pager, not mr scanner.
in a way, they only manually turned themselves out to 'active standby'...UNTIL the MFS page came out. Pretty much we shouldnt respond until somebody else pages your brigade. So eg...MFS: or BRDG: ALDGATE RESPOND ASSIST BRIDGEWATER bla bla...before that, active standby can be initiated i think.
That strategy works well i believe, gets ya trucks out on the road within 1 minute of the page, rather than 6.
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Also interesting, Burnside turning themselves out again (before they're paged) for the second time in a few days. Maybe its time someone introduced them to mr pager, not mr scanner.
As for RCR resources, agree, bad management, but its compounded by a bad selection of vehicles used to stow RCR gear on in Lofty Group in general. Most of them are front running appliances to any job. Makes it difficult to "not" send them just to cover RCR.
In Burnsides defence, I don't think they hit the road until the GO requested them and their tanker. As far as I'm concerned, if you have a crew at the station and you hear that you have been requested, no use waiting for the page - especially when you have a looong drive up the hill ;)
Lofty Group's RCR stowage isn't really that bad compared to most groups. Of the three front running trucks with RCR gear on them, two have just Rapid Intervention gear and then you have the stand alone Rescue. When compared to somewhere like Heysen group with both rescue resources being on front running trucks after Barker had their stand alone Rescue stolen, its not as bad as it could be.
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So how do you fix this? other than buying more rescue gear?
Athesltones vehicle with RCR gear was already on scene? Stirling &/or Burnside respond a differant vehicle [ ie there 24] just with operators... no need for multipel sets when theres only one entrapmnent in one vehicle.
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Do stirling and barker have a RIV set aswell as their standard RCR gear?
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Yes full RCR on rescue and RIV on pumper.
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So how do you fix this? other than buying more rescue gear?
This is the other (cheaper) option. Using the above response for example, if Burnside are turning out to cover a lack of crew with Stirling, then they should be stopped as soon as Stirling is on the road and can confirm the have sufficient rescue operators.
Interesting point. have come across this scenario before (not in a rescue situation though) where my brigade have been sent as a default brigade, then when the inital brigade got mobile been given a stop. Interesting situation, do we then stop a resource that is now a closer rescource (after being on the road for 5 mins driving towards the incident) when there is yet no truck on scene at the job??
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Keep the resource that will arrive soonist coming. more than likely it will be the default brigade, Stop the Inital brigade.
Interesting to note, athelstone took 11mins to mobilise, thats defaultable at the 6 or 7 minute mark. ahwell...
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Request for Stirling and Summertown backup came within 5 mins of initial page to job, by the sounds of it!
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I think brigades need to start being more self critical and aware that they are taking longer than 4 min and hence be more willing to self default.
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Athesltones vehicle with RCR gear was already on scene? Stirling &/or Burnside respond a differant vehicle [ ie there 24] just with operators... no need for multipel sets when theres only one entrapmnent in one vehicle.
There is a need for multiple Resuce appliances when they carry differnt gear. As the job was on a steep hill, as Jaff pointed out, then it would be entirely appropriate for Stirling to be turned out for their Rope Rescue capabilities. You should well know that there is a huge difference when it comes to rescue stowage around the state. All Rescue brigades have the minimum, but above and beyond that, who knows?
Do stirling and barker have a RIV set aswell as their standard RCR gear?
Further to what bittenyakka has said, I don't think Mt. Barker do.
Interesting point. have come across this scenario before (not in a rescue situation though) where my brigade have been sent as a default brigade, then when the inital brigade got mobile been given a stop. Interesting situation, do we then stop a resource that is now a closer rescource (after being on the road for 5 mins driving towards the incident) when there is yet no truck on scene at the job??
I think the difference is having a brigade tagged as auto dual response incase there are crewing issues, compared to having a brigade default and then get on the road. Of course if you default, and then you can get mobile 2 minutes later, perhaps put a stop on the default brigade, but too often you see brigade defaulting and then turning out 15 minutes later...
Request for Stirling and Summertown backup came within 5 mins of initial page to job, by the sounds of it!
Its a pity that the pages didnt go out for another 20 minutes!
I think brigades need to start being more self critical and aware that they are taking longer than 4 min and hence be more willing to self default.
Yes. At the end of the day, we are providing a service to the community, that often requires a time critical response. If we can't do it then we need to pass it on fast to the next brigade. Ofcourse things are different outside of the MLR urban interface where you have 100 brigades per town.
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Barker would have a minimal rcr kit in there 34P i would believe.
Lobethal have a set on Rescue and can have a set on there 24P anytime...
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Barker would have a minimal rcr kit in there 34P i would believe.
Lobethal have a set on Rescue and can have a set on there 24P anytime...
They 'can' have a set? As for Barker, I recall seeing their combitool happily stowed on the pumper. Unless they have another one?
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yeah, they had it on 24P for the Grand Prix thingy... not sure if its a permanant feature.
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Athesltones vehicle with RCR gear was already on scene? Stirling &/or Burnside respond a differant vehicle [ ie there 24] just with operators... no need for multipel sets when theres only one entrapmnent in one vehicle.
There is a need for multiple Resuce appliances when they carry differnt gear. As the job was on a steep hill, as Jaff pointed out, then it would be entirely appropriate for Stirling to be turned out for their Rope Rescue capabilities. You should well know that there is a huge difference when it comes to rescue stowage around the state. All Rescue brigades have the minimum, but above and beyond that, who knows?
Indeed, however looking beyond this specific circumstance, responding operators only is a feaseable way of reducing the amount of rescue vehicles being displaced.
If Stirling responded to this job as a rope rescue resource, then that is an entirely differant matter of course.
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hhmmm gotten bit of topic..
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Maybe its time someone introduced them to mr pager, not mr scanner.
in a way, they only manually turned themselves out to 'active standby'...UNTIL the MFS page came out. Pretty much we shouldnt respond until somebody else pages your brigade. So eg...MFS: or BRDG: ALDGATE RESPOND ASSIST BRIDGEWATER bla bla...before that, active standby can be initiated i think.
That strategy works well i believe, gets ya trucks out on the road within 1 minute of the page, rather than 6.
Can't speak for the Bridgewater job, but Burnside did not self respond to the Norton Summit one. They were requested by the (Mt Lofty) GDO and initiated the response from there.
Lets not forget there are ways to respond a brigade to an incident that don't involve the pager, and sometimes the pager isn't the best option.
Also, just for interests sake, Google Maps tells us:
Burnside - Norton Summit: 11.9 km – about 17 mins
Stirling - Norton Summit: 12.1 km – about 19 mins
Athelstone - Norton Summit: 14.2 km – about 21 mins
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bahahahahaha 1 ha burnt...talk about a traffic jam. end of augment about over resourcing. :lol:
Interesting article in this weeks Courier...
The Courier Opinion
Thursday, January 22, 2009
Timely fire warning
As far as fire seasons go, the Hills is at the pointy end of this one.
The temperatures are picking up, and so are the winds, and the
forecasters are predicting plenty of hot and gusty conditions in
coming weeks.
Water restrictions are biting household gardens and it's becoming
harder to find lush green shelter belts around homes.
Two fires this week showed how quickly a spark can catch hold in dry
vegetation and threaten homes.
One in Bridgewater was ignited by an angle grinder and burnt through
the front yards of two homes and jumped the road to burn sections of
the front yards of another three houses.
The other fire was the fault of a spark from a passing train that
raced through a well kept buffer belt of slashed grass to burn out
the backyard of one house and threaten several others.
In a matter of minutes a tiny flame erupted into something monstrous
and it took a hard and fast response from the CFS to stop it in its
tracks.
Notably it took carefully aimed loads of foam mixture from two water
bombers to take the sting out of the fires so volunteers could get
close enough to finish them off.
One neighbor told The Courier he was amazed when one drop effectively
put out half the fire and significantly reduced the radiant heat
beating down the street.
Water bombers are proving to be invaluable firefighting tools,
helping communities contain damage and save assets.
In steep terrain, as evident at the Bridgewater fire, aerial attacks
can mean the difference between a small incident and a big fire out
of the reach of ground crews.
But water bombers don't put out fires.
The Hills still rely on its CFS volunteers to manage the fire ground,
direct the bombers, put strategies in place and then hang around for
hours afterwards to black everything out and prevent flare-ups.
Fire is reported in the region most days now and every time their
pagers go off a group of people give up their time to keep the rest
of the community safe.
The least that community can do in return is to reduce the amount of
preventable fires happening, and be prepared themselves.
Don't use angle grinders, welders and cutting tools on total fire ban
days without a permit. It's illegal.
Think twice about mowing and slashing on high risk days, keep your
machinery in good condition and keep decent firefighting equipment
nearby if you have to use machinery and tools.
The Hills are tinder dry at the moment and it doesn't take much to
start a bushfire.
The Courier [Permanent link to this item] [Opinion home] [Courier home].
Don't know about you lot, but were in the business of protecting lives and saving property. Given the location of this fire their was a serious level of risk to exposures which included a number of homes and the edge of Engelbrook reserve that was directly opposite. Upgrading it early to a 2nd alarm was appropriate, then once a reassessment was made with the threat reduced, brigades were stood down quickly.
Given the fact that this is a public forum, it would be my advice to keep some of the "2nd guess type opinions to yourselves or pass any legitimate concerns up the official channels. This sort of banter does not do us any favours.
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well considering people howled downt he CFS for sending extra aircraft + the Sky Crane to Port Lincoln it was simply a example used.. Fire going well @ Port Lincoln Multible million dollar factories under threat and people say they didn need to throw all those resources at it...yet as soon as something happens in the Adelaide hills its all ok...Doesn matter where somethin starts every available resource should be sent..A job well doen by the guys n girls at Bridgewater :-)
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Given the fact that this is a public forum, it would be my advice to keep some of the "2nd guess type opinions to yourselves or pass any legitimate concerns up the official channels. This sort of banter does not do us any favours.
precisely (I wasn't going to bother saying anything but am glad you did).
The only other thing I'd like to add is that the pager is only one way of being responded. Do not criticise a brigade for "self responding" just because you didn't see a pager message sent to them.
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Mt Barker do not have RIV, it was asked for when the old rescue was taken away, RIV to be put on dennis at the time and now the 34P, region said not required....
Also regarding the Bridgewater fire, yes it is in a bad area, yes smoke showing, and yes the 2ND alarm is a good call...But do not send your whole group and a strike team when you arrive on scene to find it to be so so small. A good officer should be able to upgrade and downgrade and make the call when on scene, a good officer will also not drain the whole group and smaller stations like your upper sturts for no reason.
Another thing to look at if over a few weeks these same brigades get dragged out for mop up duty on these massive fires of 2 acres and under then the day the big one does happen a lot of bosses will say sorry mate you've left 3 times this week for nothing i need you here, or families going not this time dad we were going out, it will take it's toll on people that don't have secure government jobs or have families at home waiting. Not saying vollies won't go to jobs but if you don't need them send them home or don't respond them at all. It is only January and a long fire season ahead so don't burn them out.
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Well after being called to the Bridgewater fire, other than a couple of issues that are un related to this i believe it was run quite well. High risk fire on a bad day lots of trucks hit it fast and go home fast, i think i spent an entire hour and a half or so there. That has to be better than getting the local crews to need to arrange for a long mop up and dealing with a relatively risky fire.
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Mt Barker do not have RIV, it was asked for when the old rescue was taken away, RIV to be put on dennis at the time and now the 34P, region said not required....
LOL...the amount of rescues they do...it is required. More so when the Rescue gear goes in for servicing. etc.
So pretty much right now the situation is:
Entrapments job Brukunga > Mt Barker Rescue
Entrapments job Morphett St, Mt Barker > Stirling Rescue
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So pretty much right now the situation is:
Entrapments job Brukunga > Mt Barker Rescue
Entrapments job Morphett St, Mt Barker > Stirling Rescue
I think you'd find that's the situation even if they had the RIV Zippy. As far as I know, RIV is not counted as a rescue resource, so a full rescue stowage would be responded anyway.
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So pretty much right now the situation is:
Entrapments job Brukunga > Mt Barker Rescue
Entrapments job Morphett St, Mt Barker > Stirling Rescue
I think you'd find that's the situation even if they had the RIV Zippy. As far as I know, RIV is not counted as a rescue resource, so a full rescue stowage would be responded anyway.
Per the book, 100% correct.
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Mt Barker do not have RIV, it was asked for when the old rescue was taken away, RIV to be put on dennis at the time and now the 34P, region said not required....
Entrapments job Morphett St, Mt Barker > Stirling Rescue
which would default to Burnside or Blackwood during the week :roll:
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Pfft, nah...lobethal would be close enough, but they wouldnt know what hit them if they were called for a rescue job in Mt Barker's area.
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Meadow and Strathalbyn would be quicker than Lobie, Blackwood and Burnside would they?
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I would think:
Quickest to Slowest: Mt Barker, Stirling, Lobethal, Meadows, Burnside, Strath, Blackwood.
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NTPA: Nuri 24 Mobile To Grass fire, Nuri 24P responding Going Priority 2 (in case) 23/01/2009 3:18:55 PM
Thats great thinking!
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Just a question re: Road Crash Rescue Arrangements SA.
Do CFS operators understand the equipment standard for RCR?
Rapid Intervention Equipment i.e combitools do not meet this standard in SA - period!
So it does not matter if you have ten trucks & Nine of them carry Rapid Intervention, if your rescue is not available (with the correct equipment) then you can't respond as rescue.
Now I know that some don't like it & this particular subject has been discussed too many times before but to suggest purchasing more equipment (which does not meet the standard) just so your particular brigade can get to the job is just a waste of money!
Simple solution - default! It's just not that hard!
And if your brigade/group/service sends rescue appliances to a non rescue job (yes I know some aren't stand alone), then that is good ammunition for stand alone rescue appliances or a seperate rescue service :wink:
Alternatively get a tri-service working group together to change the rules, mind you I don't think that is the way to go - considering the requirements for modern rescue techniques IMHO.
Cheers
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NTPA: Nuri 24 Mobile To Grass fire, Nuri 24P responding Going Priority 2 (in case) 23/01/2009 3:18:55 PM
Thats great thinking!
yea they went priority two to truro base..than on tot he fire as they were needed
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Pfft, nah...lobethal would be close enough, but they wouldnt know what hit them if they were called for a rescue job in Mt Barker's area.
What, because it is a SES Rescue truck & SES RCR equipment being driven in the Mt Barker area...maybe by CFS PPE people could be the saving grace....oh noooo...(yes this is tongue in cheek comment). :evil: :lol: :-D
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The point of having rapid intervention is to be able to respond a 2nd truck with rescue crew to a job as well as the 2nd rescue, if you get there and it is a small job and you can do a cut out with RIV and the person is extricated then you can stop the rescue. To the public it looks like a rescue resource is on scene quickly rather then wait 30 mins for help.
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nah mate, its CFS RCR response in merely a SES vehicle...wouldnt mind it being rebadged to be a duplicate of Aldinga beach rescue.
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Just a question re: Road Crash Rescue Arrangements SA.
Do CFS operators understand the equipment standard for RCR?
Rapid Intervention Equipment i.e combitools do not meet this standard in SA - period!
I think the answer is know one does, and 90% of the time it depends on how keen you brigade is on getting the stuff they want.
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Why Zippy? CFS didn't pay for it - at least those 4 brigades swallowed a bit of pride & found a good solution to their needs :wink:
Yep mate that's what I thought, what certain individuals want (toys for the boys/girls) & stuff everyone else (who miss out on the basics - just because they don't make as much noise).
Bronto I know how the RIV gear can be used (used it myself Hurst Roadrunner), however thats not what guys on this forum were talking about. The way I read the post, if a combi tool was available the other rescue resources wouldn't be needed. Of course this would be true as long as its not a difficult rescue and involving inline extracation.
This one of my two greatest fears of a combined service, high profile brigades getting everything they want while everyone else gets the basics (including a combitool instead of proper hydraulics).
Anyway think I've got my point across.
cheers
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Why are you so worried doesn't your name say EX-SES member so you don't have to worry.
Plus you may find conbined services will just show where resources are not needed like berri, i think 3 red trucks is enough.
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Upgrading it early to a 2nd alarm was appropriate, then once a reassessment was made with the threat reduced, brigades were stood down quickly.
I don't know about you, but having upwards of 10 brigades responding to an incident is by no means a '2nd Alarm'. ;)
LOL...the amount of rescues they do...it is required. More so when the Rescue gear goes in for servicing. etc.
So pretty much right now the situation is:
Entrapments job Brukunga > Mt Barker Rescue
Entrapments job Morphett St, Mt Barker > Stirling Rescue
If rescue gear goes in for servicing, there should be a replacement set on the truck.
As far as who goes where, yes as others have said, according to the green book you have the responses correct. Rapid intervention will not change that, all that have Rapid Intervention capabilities on a truck allows is a more immediate (rapid) rescue (intervention) if required.
Mt Barker do not have RIV, it was asked for when the old rescue was taken away, RIV to be put on dennis at the time and now the 34P, region said not required....
Entrapments job Morphett St, Mt Barker > Stirling Rescue
which would default to Burnside or Blackwood during the week :roll:
Pfft, nah...lobethal would be close enough, but they wouldnt know what hit them if they were called for a rescue job in Mt Barker's area.
Meadow and Strathalbyn would be quicker than Lobie, Blackwood and Burnside would they?
I would think:
Quickest to Slowest: Mt Barker, Stirling, Lobethal, Meadows, Burnside, Strath, Blackwood.
Ok. Lets put aside all this bickering and play a scenario, according to the book, to demonstrate how Rescue responses, and RIV works.
Mt. Barker gets turned out to a job, at Nairne, with entrapments. Barker Rescue turns out for rescue response and Nairne 24P turns out for fire cover. Crew get to work. As crews are working, there is another rescue job on the Mt. Barker Freeway exit. More entrapments.
CURRENTLY: The 2nd rescue (Stirling) would turnout, meaning there was no rescue resource on scene for atleast the time it takes to drive from Stirling -> Mt. Barker. This means that any need for an immediate release of the patient must wait a substantial amount of time. Mt. Barker 34P turns out for fire cover, and sits around waiting for Stirling to arrive, unable to effect any release.
WITH RAPID INTERVENTION STOWAGE: The 2nd Rescue (Still Stirling) turns out as the initial 'Rescue Resource' to the incident. Mt. Barker 34P turns out, and are able to provide fire cover, like before, but more importantly they are also able to begin getting tools to work on the vehicle to extricate the patient as necessary. If they encounter problems, thats ok, the Rescue is still en route. If they encounter no issues and get the patient out of the vehicle, thats awesome and they can stop call the Rescue.
Rapid Intervention Capability is not about replacing the Rescue resource, but allowing more versatility for responses within the response area of a Rescue brigade. For a Brigade like Mt. Barker, this also allows their Rescue/Pumper to be plumbed into an incident, yet still have rescue coverage in their area.
Just a question re: Road Crash Rescue Arrangements SA.
Do CFS operators understand the equipment standard for RCR?
Rapid Intervention Equipment i.e combitools do not meet this standard in SA - period!
So it does not matter if you have ten trucks & Nine of them carry Rapid Intervention, if your rescue is not available (with the correct equipment) then you can't respond as rescue.
Now I know that some don't like it & this particular subject has been discussed too many times before but to suggest purchasing more equipment (which does not meet the standard) just so your particular brigade can get to the job is just a waste of money!
CFS Rescue Operators SHOULD understand the equipment standard to be listed as a Rescue Resource, but you are right many don't.
Why can't their be two standards, like the good old days that allow the provision of 1st/2nd/heavy Rescue? Just add RIV into the mix ;)
You should know as well as I do that for 90% of rescue jobs a Combitool is more than enough and is often more versatile and faster to use than the larger and heavier hydraulic equipment. I don't believe, unlike some assumptions and suggestions made here, that a Combitool and pump are enough to qualify as Rapid Intervention as there are a few other items, eg: small rams, that have have specific uses that you cannot replicate with a single combitool.
As I have tried to point out above, having Rapid Intervention Equipment on a truck is not by any mean meant to replace a rescue resource. It is meant to compliment the rescue stowage, on a separate appliance, to allow an already qualified brigade to provide a better level of service to their rescue area. It's not all about empire building.
Bronto I know how the RIV gear can be used (used it myself Hurst Roadrunner), however thats not what guys on this forum were talking about. The way I read the post, if a combi tool was available the other rescue resources wouldn't be needed. Of course this would be true as long as its not a difficult rescue and involving inline extracation.
This one of my two greatest fears of a combined service, high profile brigades getting everything they want while everyone else gets the basics (including a combitool instead of proper hydraulics).
If you're making your judgement of "RIV gear" on the Hurst Roadrunner, I would suggest you look at something a little more modern ;)
The fact that the Roadrunner had incorporated parrot beak blades, rather than the straight blade certainly effects it's performance as a combitool, and severely limits its use in an RCR scenario. I'm also a bit worried that you refer to a single tool as RIV gear, when the combi tool really should not be relied upon as the be all and end all of RIV gear, do you even know what would/should constitute RIV stowage? As i keep saying, RIV is not meant to replace the appropriate fully stowed rescue resource being turned out.
For the whole Rapid Intervention system to work, there would need to be a clearly defined stowage list for "Rapid Intervention" as well as a listing for brigade/appliances that can be turned out with RIV capabilities.
Finally, "High Profile" Brigade, or the brigades that do the work, push the envelope and actually require the gear?
</wall of text>
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Numbers, The Phil Spectre of SAF :wink:
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Numbers, The Phil Spectre of SAF :wink:
Hey, I haven't killed any... actresses, recently.
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Big week next week 26th Jan onwards temps into the high 30s and possibly hitting 40,..........is it time for a upgrade to NASTY NASTY NASTY or will the current NASTY NASTY suffice, I wouldn't want to be accussed of upgrading unecessarily and tying up too many NASTY's.
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3rd Alarm NASTY with Rescue considerations?
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3rd Alarm NASTY with Rescue considerations?
I will notify RDO of the third alarm NASTY, as per the SOPs!
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3rd Alarm NASTY with Rescue considerations?
I will notify RDO of the third alarm NASTY, as per the SOPs!
Atleast SOMEONE follows SOP's around here. These forums could do with some posting/general usage SOP's.
EG: 6739264 is banned from posting re: Rescue
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Am surprised with all the RCR work Barker does that they don't have a RIV set on secondary appliance let alone a second set of "heavy" gear.
And was it posted elsewhere that they put in for funding for a RIV set and were knocked back? :?
Would have thought for brigades like Stirling/Barker/Nuri (yes i know Stirling have a set) RIV kit would be almost mandatory on secondary appliance. :|
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3rd Alarm NASTY with Rescue considerations?
I will notify RDO of the third alarm NASTY, as per the SOPs!
is that based on an NDI of over 50?
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Upgrading it early to a 2nd alarm was appropriate, then once a reassessment was made with the threat reduced, brigades were stood down quickly.
I don't know about you, but having upwards of 10 brigades responding to an incident is by no means a '2nd Alarm'. ;)
Actually, the initial page responded 4 brigades, which is well and truly equal to a second alarm. (3rd alarm if all the brigades send 2 trucks each! :P )
For the whole Rapid Intervention system to work, there would need to be a clearly defined stowage list for "Rapid Intervention" as well as a listing for brigade/appliances that can be turned out with RIV capabilities.
What do you mean "would need to be"? The stowage difference between rapid intervention and CFS heavy rescue are already clearly defined in the standard stowage lists.
The difference between the two being that no lighting or backup pump are required, and the hydraulic tools are all replaced with the omni tool. An "extrication board" is also optional, but EVERYTHING else is the same.
I thought rescue was your thing! :P
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One big reason Heavy Rescue was removed from the green book is nearly all CFS/SES vehicles do not meet the true criteria for a "Heavy Rescue" truck. Look at rescue in QLD, NSWFB, MFB, and CFA vols who have dedicated rescue trucks, no Dyna's or canters, big trucks..These brigades carry a large variety of rescue gear, multiple hand tools, multiple airbags and heavy lifting jacks for trucks and trains, heaps of chocks and blocks, timbers and cribbing, and other means of rescue tools. What does most SA rescues carry, CFS will not even replace airbags now because they are once again "NOT REQUIRED", sorry for that guy trapped under his tractor, so all these people saying we have a heavy rescue are merely saying their truck is over weight not because of the gear they carry.
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sorry for that guy trapped under his tractor,
or helicopter :wink:
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Bronto I care because I still have family members who live in SA, I'm still an accredited rescue member (but true not in SA)& we have facilities in SA which may require the service of a rescue service. Oh & I still spend time there.
As far as 3 red trucks ??? thats a SAMFS operational decision isn't it?
Numbers agree with all of your comments - including those on the Roadrunner.
Seen the Holmatro gear in action - wasn't impressed, having said that I did try and get the Lukas version when at Berri exactly for the reasons you mentioned, could get to the job quicker in our fast response, most jobs did not require the heavy hydraulics & our fast response carried everything required for simple RCR jobs (including FARA stabilisers, cribbing, glass management & hard protection just not separate cutters/ spreaders/ram), however I settled on a second set of cutters instead.
Whilst I agree that brigades who are rescue may have a requirement for a combitool for RIV, as said previously that was not the reason previously mentioned(my reading was to attend jobs when the primary rescue was committed elsewhere) & I stand by what I said "If you primary rescue is already committed, then default should be automatic" unless of course you have two rescues including certified crew.
Bronto you are of course correct Heavy rescue is not a term I would apply to the majority of squads in SA, or infact elsewhere - maybe medium rescue?
Finally refer to Boardies comments in the St Johns thread - when things go bad fall back to the good Samaritans act. I think some (thankfully not all)in the volunteer emergency services (not just SA), tend to think like that (payed staff as well as volunteers) & would rather set the bar low in regards to equipment, people & training instead of biting the bullet and demanding betterfrom our respective governments, people & communities.
In an ideal world there would be a true heavy rescue squad based in each area (groups),and properly equipped/trained medium teams in each council area- but thats in an ideal world :-D
cheers
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Actually, the initial page responded 4 brigades, which is well and truly equal to a second alarm. (3rd alarm if all the brigades send 2 trucks each! :P )
If you want to get picky, Initial Pages and 'Upgrading' the response are two different things ;)
The initial 2nd Alarm response was great, but then it got upgraded waaaaaaaaaay beyond that :P
For the whole Rapid Intervention system to work, there would need to be a clearly defined stowage list for "Rapid Intervention" as well as a listing for brigade/appliances that can be turned out with RIV capabilities.
What do you mean "would need to be"? The stowage difference between rapid intervention and CFS heavy rescue are already clearly defined in the standard stowage lists.
The difference between the two being that no lighting or backup pump are required, and the hydraulic tools are all replaced with the omni tool. An "extrication board" is also optional, but EVERYTHING else is the same.
I thought rescue was your thing! :P
Yes, and a few too many bourbons also happen to be my thing occasionally. The Stowage lists you're talking about would appear to be in-house CFS lists, with have nothing to do with any external recognition via the RCR Green Book. Its all good and well for the CFS to promote stowage lists and to list Brigades as Rapid Intervention within their own regional directories, but if its not in the green book, it doesn't count.
There needs to be action taken from the top, across all services for any Rapid Intervention policy to work. It's never good when a service acts alone and attempts to bring policies and procedures into action that do not fit with the already outlined state wide standard.
One big reason Heavy Rescue was removed from the green book is nearly all CFS/SES vehicles do not meet the true criteria for a "Heavy Rescue" truck.
And the only culprit for this being the case is the management of SACFS, SASES and SAMFS. How the services have managed to take the term "Rescue" and turn it into "Road Crash Rescue" only is beyond me. RCR is only a tiny slice of the Rescue pie. But these are the same services that use the Halligan tool as an RCR only tool...
We'll get there Big Bronto, one day.
Whilst I agree that brigades who are rescue may have a requirement for a combitool for RIV, as said previously that was not the reason previously mentioned(my reading was to attend jobs when the primary rescue was committed elsewhere) & I stand by what I said "If you primary rescue is already committed, then default should be automatic" unless of course you have two rescues including certified crew.
Once again, a combitool does not a Rapid Intervention truck make. There is far more to it than that, and more to it than even included in the CFS Rapid Intervention Stowage lists. As I've tried to point out, RIV doesnt mean you're defaulting it merely allows a brigade to provide an amount of RCR response while the listed 2nd rescue travels the generally large distance to get to the job. Yes people misunderstand it, and see it as a be all and end all of rescue response. That is incorrect and not what RIV is meant for. Bring on individual resource tracking!
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Toally agree Numbers, maybe one day a properly constituted State rescue board will be formed & some common standards will finally apply e.g. all rescue squads should be at least qualified & trained in rope rescue (even if its just to gain access until further "heavier" crews arrive). Medium rescue & heavy rescue equipment list should be developed & be identical for all rescue services with sunset clause of 12 months to fully comply with equipment & the required training - if you don't comply you are down grounded to light rescue only and any medium/ heavy equipment withdrawn.As far as the RIV thing I know what you were getting at. And if there were proper resource tracking we would not have had this conversation :wink:
cheer
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" Also interesting, Burnside turning themselves out again (before they're paged) for the second time in a few days. Maybe its time someone introduced them to mr pager, not mr scanner. "
Hello,
I'm not sure to take the above as personal offence or someone shooting their mouth off without knowing the full story... Given I was the driver for the first incident (RCR Norton Summit) and Officer for the 2nd (Grass fire Bridgewater) on both Burnside appliances and KNOWING for fact that in fact there wasn't such a scanner present when the brigade was turned out... Maybe you should get your facts straight and if you wish to discuss it further call me 0404 016 520.
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So...another NASTY NASTY week ahead Mac13! much planned for your week?
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" Also interesting, Burnside turning themselves out again (before they're paged) for the second time in a few days. Maybe its time someone introduced them to mr pager, not mr scanner. "
Hello,
I'm not sure to take the above as personal offence or someone shooting their mouth off without knowing the full story... Given I was the driver for the first incident (RCR Norton Summit) and Officer for the 2nd (Grass fire Bridgewater) on both Burnside appliances and KNOWING for fact that in fact there wasn't such a scanner present when the brigade was turned out... Maybe you should get your facts straight and if you wish to discuss it further call me 0404 016 520.
hahahah.....well...I'm sure the "very senior" audience u had at the other end of the GRN had a very different opinion, so i'll stick with theirs
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come on then if you have something to say then get it out there and say it?
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I'll be back in a minute, I'm just getting some popcorn to share as I settle in for the next round of NASTY NASTY.
DING DING!
Kirkmoe V Teddy is the MAIN EVENT tonight ladies and gents!
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So...another NASTY NASTY week ahead Mac13! much planned for your week?
sure is Zippy...ahhh ill just be taking a real interest in the tennis all of a sudden 8-)
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So i take it you are going to hibernate for the whole week then mac :lol: so if you dont appear once it cools down that means another 2 months of Summer :-D :lol:
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Keep it friendly!!!!
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What an interesting day it was....
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So i take it you are going to hibernate for the whole week then mac :lol: so if you dont appear once it cools down that means another 2 months of Summer :-D :lol:
pretty much there boss...i aint goin outside in this weather 8-)..TFB shouldn be out in paddocks anyway :wink:
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CFS: SIG INC: TOTAL FIRE BANS HAVE BEEN DECLARED FOR 28/01/09 STATE WIDE. ON-CALL STAFF CONFIRM. > 27/01/2009 4:19:52 PM CFS R4 HQ Info
First one 4 this year...Hold on to ya knickers boys n girls 8-)
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CFS: SIG INC: TOTAL FIRE BANS HAVE BEEN DECLARED FOR 28/01/09 STATE WIDE. ON-CALL STAFF CONFIRM. > 27/01/2009 4:19:52 PM CFS R4 HQ Info
First one 4 this year...Hold on to ya knickers boys n girls 8-)
That is assuming you all wear them :wink:............you dirty firefighters you!
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CFS: SIG INC: TOTAL FIRE BANS HAVE BEEN DECLARED FOR 28/01/09 STATE WIDE. ON-CALL STAFF CONFIRM. > 27/01/2009 4:19:52 PM CFS R4 HQ Info
First one 4 this year...Hold on to ya knickers boys n girls 8-)
Im hoping that when i turn up for work tomorrow that my garden crew boss will say take the day off due to there being a SA Wide TFB and it being too hot to work :-D
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Have you ever tried stand up comedy Robert? :lol: :evil:
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" Also interesting, Burnside turning themselves out again (before they're paged) for the second time in a few days. Maybe its time someone introduced them to mr pager, not mr scanner. "
Hello,
I'm not sure to take the above as personal offence or someone shooting their mouth off without knowing the full story... Given I was the driver for the first incident (RCR Norton Summit) and Officer for the 2nd (Grass fire Bridgewater) on both Burnside appliances and KNOWING for fact that in fact there wasn't such a scanner present when the brigade was turned out... Maybe you should get your facts straight and if you wish to discuss it further call me 0404 016 520.
hahahah.....well...I'm sure the "very senior" audience u had at the other end of the GRN had a very different opinion, so i'll stick with theirs
I would like to know why that senior person doesn't seem interested in the fact that Athelstone took 12 mins to get on the road, and the fact there was no default and that Burnside did the cutout.
CFS seem to have priorites in the wrong area, sigh
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Thats what i heard too Pumprescue...
But its old news now, *switchs tv channels*
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Well the Doo have got a job on, but if they get a stop does that count as the .5 some people have predicted? :-D
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Dont speak too soon Alan cause tomorrow looks to be busy for the whole state including the South East with the FDI's being over the 100 mark
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The Doo didn't get out the door before a stop call was issued - well all other brigades called were fully crewed and mobile - the doo captain acknowledged the stop call - so maybe that is the .5
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We got out the door this time
1909366 22:04:00 30-01-09 MFS: *CFSRES INC146 30/01/09 22:05,RESPOND Tree Down,KALANGADOO ,KALANGADOO MAP 0 0 0 TG231,SOUTHERN END OF SLAUGHTERHOUSE ROAD NEAR, WEPAR RD,KALA00 CFS Kalangadoo Response
All we used was an axe to cut the tree off the road and had the incident completed very quickly :-D
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We got out the door this time
1909366 22:04:00 30-01-09 MFS: *CFSRES INC146 30/01/09 22:05,RESPOND Tree Down,KALANGADOO ,KALANGADOO MAP 0 0 0 TG231,SOUTHERN END OF SLAUGHTERHOUSE ROAD NEAR, WEPAR RD,KALA00 CFS Kalangadoo Response
All we used was an axe to cut the tree off the road and had the incident completed very quickly :-D
whoopie poxy little tree with a crew of 4.5. If I hadn't been driving I probably would of slept thru it on the back. Some people got excited though