SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Incident Operations => Topic started by: Zippy on September 15, 2008, 10:02:10 AM
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Vandals cause toxic chemical spill
Article from: The Advertiser
September 15, 2008 09:15am
VANDALS are responsible for a large chemical spill at a wool processing plant in Salisbury.
About 40,000 litres of hydrogen peroxide and sulphuric acid were spilled after a break-in at the Nylex Ave business last night.
Ten Metropolitan Fire Service crews were called to the scene about 7am.
The clean-up process is expected to take some time, but the leak has been contained and there is no danger of chemicals entering the stormwater system.
In Attendance
Salisbury 321, 329
Elizabeth 331, 332
Oakden 302
St Marys 401
DO NORTH car 31
Adelaide 2090
And other various MFS appliances.
Salisbury, Dalkeith, Athelstone, Tea Tree Gully, Burnside CFS
Multiple COQ's.
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With the COQ's isn't it a bit odd that the Valley went to Glen Osmond instead of stirling??
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i think that was some good Strategic thinking by the C Shift Comms Officer. Keeping Stirling available for RCR's on the Freeway...and avaliable for the next possible round of COQ's.
Considering that 204, 249, 409, 439 are the only available MFS Rescues. Burnside are already commited to a hazmat, Athelstone id say are already fully committed. So Stirling would be the next available COQ for RCR.
Once ya use up Stirling....then ya gonna get into the Morphett Vale, Seaford, Balhannah, Virginia, Nuriootpa, even Aldinga Beach...
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Fair nuff
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Yeah strategic move, already used enough rescues, and with this weather and the freeway reputation the descision was made in consultation with region 1.
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We picked their thinking zippy.
What is the next step in this type of call about getting CFS crews out of MFS stations? or are more cfs members just rotated through.
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We picked their thinking zippy.
What is the next step in this type of call about getting CFS crews out of MFS stations? or are more cfs members just rotated through.
I am not sure of crew rotation on COQ stations, but they are changing crew at the incident site.
11:59:11 15-09-08 ONKA> TO ONKA HAZMAT OPERATORS> I NEED TWO HAZMAT OPS TO TAKE BAL 34P TO GO TO SALISBURY TODAY 15.9.08 LEAVING BAL STATION AT 1300HRS FOR SHIFT TILL APPROX 9PM RETURN TO BAL> IF AVAIL PLEASE RING GREG J ON 8388 4481 THANKS CFS Onkaparinga Group Info
Then stop call on change-over for some crews, it would seem.
13:34:13 15-09-08 EDEN HAS A STOP CALL FOR HASMAT - EDEN CAPTAIN CFS Eden Hills Info
13:34:54 15-09-08 SALISBURY RELIEF CREW NOT REQUIRED THANKYOU TO ALL CREW WHO MADE THEMSELVES AVAILABLE FROM SALISBURY STATION CFS Salisbury Info
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08:46:15 15-09-08 MFS: *CFSRES INC055 15/09/08 08:45,RESPOND PROVIDE SHELTER,1506 MAIN NORTH RD,SALISBURY SOUTH MAP 71 G 14,LARGE INFLATABLE SHELTER GH MICHELL CONT,ACT COMCEN <phone number>,NAD020 SES Edinburgh Response
SES also attending to provide shelter... In this wind I am not sure if they would use the inflatable tent :-D
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From:- http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,24346798-5006301,00.html
Spill forces evacuation
Daniel Wills, AAP
September 15, 2008 01:20pm
FEARS a Salisbury North wool processing plant could explode from a toxic mix of chemicals and methane gas have eased.
SA Police have closed the area near GH Michel and Sons earlier today, saying there was a ''real and immediate danger to life''.
They told a media conference a short time ago that they now believed the situation was under control but would require local business owners to stay away from the area until 12.30pm tomorrow.
Police earlier enforced an air exclusion zone, with no aircraft permitted within 1km, forcing pilots to find alternative landing sites than Parafield Airport, which is adjacent to the GH Michel plant.
Thousands of litres of hydrogen peroxide, sulphuric acid and possibly other chemicals had spilled within the plant, the Metropolitan Fire Service (MFS) said. Methane gas also had been detected,
Michell Pty Ltd said its Salisbury premises - one of the largest wool processing factories in the southern hemisphere - were broken into over the weekend.
"Vandals broke into the factory premises, opening and smashing valves on a number of chemical tanks," the company said in a statement.
"At this stage it appears that the damage is contained on a site at the factory."
About 60 staff returning to work after a seasonal break were evacuated this morning after the damage was discovered at 6am.
Michell Pty Ltd managing director Peter Michell described the incident as wilful damage.
"This is a very stupid act by a very stupid person,'' he said.
"A jemmy bar can do a lot of damage.''
George Henry Michell founded the business in 1870, setting up a wool scouring operation in the small South Australian township of Undalya.
The business grew rapidly and in 1896 was moved to Hindmarsh in Adelaide. The company relocated to the current Salisbury location, about 20km north of Adelaide, in the late 1960s.
The company branched into industries beyond wool processing and exporting, including banking, farming, commodity trading and property development.
In June 2004, Peter Michell and his brother David took control of the wool division and began trading as an independent venture under the name Michell Pty Ltd.
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Considering that 204, 249, 409, 439 are the only available MFS Rescues. Burnside are already commited to a hazmat, Athelstone id say are already fully committed. So Stirling would be the next available COQ for RCR.
Once ya use up Stirling....then ya gonna get into the Morphett Vale, Seaford, Balhannah, Virginia, Nuriootpa, even Aldinga Beach...
Going on Stirling's recent performances they are used up already. Its time for the white trucks to become red... and Morphett Vale? Do they even carry RIV gear? I don't think MFS recognise RIV as making you an RCR brigade so Seafords out. PS you forgot that Blackwood would be the next closest after Stirling for RCR coverage and Meadows would be closer than Aldinga Beach although yes this would leave large holes in rcr coverage in many groups.
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13:31:45 15-09-08 MFS: *CFSRES INC089 15/09/08 13:31,RESPOND ALARM 10/081,SGIC,211 VICTORIA SQU,ADELAIDE MAP 3 P 9 TG182,FIP FIRE CONTROL ROOM LHS ENTRY,,ADL205 ADL203 HPPY00 CFS Happy Valley Response
CFS & MFS response to a city building....not one you see everyday.
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Yeah strategic move, already used enough rescues, and with this weather and the freeway reputation the descision was made in consultation with region 1.
Isn't that why Stirling has a stand alone rescue appliance? :P
I think it's good strategy to leave Stirling unaffected though - particularly with the potential for the job to be going for quite some time.
Going on Stirling's recent performances they are used up already. Its time for the white trucks to become red... and Morphett Vale? Do they even carry RIV gear? I don't think MFS recognise RIV as making you an RCR brigade so Seafords out. PS you forgot that Blackwood would be the next closest after Stirling for RCR coverage and Meadows would be closer than Aldinga Beach although yes this would leave large holes in rcr coverage in many groups.
I'm note sure why Zippy chose those particular brigades, but it certainly wasn't for rescue...
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Yeah need pump rescue's, which you don't have at Stirling.
Anyway, job is done, stations were covered.
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Yeah need pump rescue's, which you don't have at Stirling.
Anyway, job is done, stations were covered.
Doesn't need to be a Pump Rescue, just needs to have a combi tool. (AFAIK anyway).
I notice some of the CFS COQ appliances are returning now... Is the job wrapping up, or are they being relieved?
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Sorry, has to have full compliment of tools to be classed as a pump rescue, otherwise you are just a pumper.
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Bring back the days of 1st/2nd/Heavy Rescue!
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huh?
you need a rescue pump for what? Not COQ as happy valley and belair are not rescue pumps.
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Doesn't matter, to hard to explain.
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Time some RCR gear was put on happy pumper..... Eden hills has RCR gear...
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Eden have RIG, not full RCR stowage.
RCR/RIG is not a requirement for COQ, i think Darren was implying that for the appliances to be considered a rescue in MFS area they would need the full stowage as per a 9. At the end of the day we [CFS] dont supply trucks with RCR equipment as the standard for COQ anyway, would leave to many areas without coverage.
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Probably another good reason why the equipment and appliances should be looked at from a state point of veiw rather than a brigades specific area.... Eg Belair should probably have a pumper again due to their close proximity to the city and the easily stretched resources of the MFS.
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Why not use eden hills instead of belair??
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Probably another good reason why the equipment and appliances should be looked at from a state point of veiw rather than a brigades specific area.... Eg Belair should probably have a pumper again due to their close proximity to the city and the easily stretched resources of the MFS.
Sweet ill put my order in for a pumper and jet right now.
nah seriously makes sense. Bout time we started working together with the other services then against them but obviously within reason.
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Eden have RIG, not full RCR stowage.
RCR/RIG...
So what DO we have in CFS? RIV/RIK/RIG???
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Eden hills should have done a COQ before belair,but what would I know a pumper or a part time pumper in a fully URBAN area???
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The reason Belair went was they are closer(to town). If you were talking about pumpers only, then most of the brigades would never do COQ.
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well if it is the closest truck what about Norton summit? ( i had to through that in :-D)
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Yep Norton would be a hell of alot closer and they have done it before....
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What I was meaning was that Belair was closer to MFS HQ or Glen Osmond, not the job at Salisbury.
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What I was meaning was that Belair was closer to MFS HQ or Glen Osmond, not the job at Salisbury.
Belair was COQ'd to 22 Glynde though, so bittenyakka's point about Norton summit being closer still holds true...
Back to the original topic though - is there any more news on the incident itself? I'm assuming it's all been cleaned up now?
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What I was meaning was that Belair was closer to MFS HQ or Glen Osmond, not the job at Salisbury.
Belair was COQ'd to 22 Glynde though, so bittenyakka's point about Norton summit being closer still holds true...
Back to the original topic though - is there any more news on the incident itself? I'm assuming it's all been cleaned up now?
Heard on the news that te place may not be operational for at least a month.
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3,2,1, lets all second guess comms... hooray :)
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Everything was done for a reason with much consultation...... :roll:
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yeah C shift is mostly more on the ball than A & B...but nothing beats D shift ;)
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3,2,1, lets all second guess comms... hooray :)
here here - was any here in comms when the calls were made?? was anyone here involved in making the calls?????
they why the hell do we all (myself included at times) pick it to bits!!!
dont get me wrong they dont always get it right
my 2 cents worth , a) the job got done
b) we (cfs) got a run
now if comms did not respond cfs then i think we would have something to say but i think they got it right this time. btw its mfs area so they call the shoots not us!!
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Hey i think we are perfectly with in our rights to pick comms to bits as it is always healthy to ask questions.
Now IF there is an obvious reason for the correct moments and comms has a problem with us doing this then come out and say who/ why / when /how? it's called being transparent.
I think this is also a good time to ask these questions as although it isn't official yet the new thing is "the closest most appropriate resource" so when this comes in what will happen?
I find it hard to believe that there wasn't some strange things going on if you send Happy Valley to 44 and Belair to 22 when Norton Summit is closer to 22.
It seems to be a toss of a coin to see who fills COQ today?
I know for some people it is as simple as " the pager goes we go" but if we don;t question what happened? why did it happen? could it be done better? ect nothing will ever improve. And this forum is a good place to do that.
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and as it has already been said.......COQ was arranged with close consultation with Region 1 HQ. Have a problem? Speak to them.
Have a problem with a response for your own brigade? Fill in the appropriate forms and it will be investigated.
Sorry i shouldnt answer these so early in the morning :-o
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At the end of the day the job got done and crews did a great job,both MFS and CFS should be comended i the way that they worked and the Salisbury brigade needs a PAT on the back for a job well done but also for being able to respond to the calls that came in after this one...
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Hey I'm Comms, I don't have a problem with a discussion about how a job was handled - it is just the way the discussion comes about and how things are stated that might get my back up. If someone comes into the Comms room after a job going "your an idiot, why did you do that" my first reaction would be to bite back (actually that is after I got past my first thought which would be to hit them into next week) but if they come in and ask questions about the job in a nice way then that is okay. There can be an awful lot going on in that room that you might not even be aware of out on the ground, not answering a call from a truck on the first call and then getting yelled at because of that (now then I really wanted to hit the person involved) actually happened because I had to speak to Adelaide fire on the other radio (about something else happening at the same time) as well as speaking to SAAS on the phone on the phone giving them directions and speaking to the local police officer who had just turned up. And I had a member on the truck with his knickers in a knot because i didn't answer on the first call. That's when I have a problem!!!!!!! Discussion is healthy, lots of things are learnt from it, I know I certainly learn things during and after every large incident.
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Hey i think we are perfectly with in our rights to pick comms to bits as it is always healthy to ask questions.
Now IF there is an obvious reason for the correct moments and comms has a problem with us doing this then come out and say who/ why / when /how? it's called being transparent.
I think this is also a good time to ask these questions as although it isn't official yet the new thing is "the closest most appropriate resource" so when this comes in what will happen?
I find it hard to believe that there wasn't some strange things going on if you send Happy Valley to 44 and Belair to 22 when Norton Summit is closer to 22.
It seems to be a toss of a coin to see who fills COQ today?
I know for some people it is as simple as " the pager goes we go" but if we don;t question what happened? why did it happen? could it be done better? ect nothing will ever improve. And this forum is a good place to do that.
Comms make decisions on the fly and in consultation with the right people. There is no need for comms to be 'held accountable' by a bunch of armchair dispatchers who fly into a frenzied circlejerk of impotent rage whenever they see something that didn't go according to the plan and procedures that they have in their mind.
We are talking about CoQ for gods sake, nothing more. I can understand questioning a response for something like an RCR if something really silly occurred, but by god, this is merely trucks getting shifted around a city. Most of East Torrens AND Mt. Lofty is closer to Glynde than Belair is, most of Mt. Lofty is closer to Glen osmond than Happy Valley is. In fact, Mt. Barker could probably give Happy Valley a run for their money in terms of getting to Glen Osmond in a timely fashion. At the end of the day who cares? What comms did was done for a reason.
If you want to talk about closest, most appropriate resources, then you would only ever have Burnside, Happy Valley, Stirling, Mt. Barker and Morphett Vale doing CoQ because they're the only brigades that are close to the CBD, have the equipment and a majority of competent members to provide a semi-professional service to the CBD.
On the other hand, maybe its all a huge conspiracy against certain brigades and because some of the comms staff are members of certain CFS brigades and groups, then that is why they are given preference. Yep, thats the reason behind it all! Quick! To the whingemobile!
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There is an SOP on Change of Quarters, I guess a fair few of those brigades listed were already involved in the actual job so that does cause some problems. Still the job was done and everything was covered so all is good.
Change of Quarters
• The procedures to respond CFS appliances to MFS stations are as follows:
o Adelaide Fire will advise the CFS DSC, who will advise the appropriate Regional Coordinator that assistance may be/is required.
o When requesting CFS appliances to change quarters to an MFS station Adelaide Fire will provide the CFS DSC (who will advise the CFS Regional Coordinator) with the following information:
MFS Station(s) require assistance
Number of CFS appliances required at each station
MFS talk group/radio frequency for each appliance
Possible duration of change of quarters
o The MFS will provide regular Sitreps to the CFS DSC/RCord.
o Predetermined CFS appliances to cover MFS stations are:
MFS Stations CFS Brigades
Glynde - Athelstone
Wakefield Street - Burnside / Belair
Glen Osmond - Stirling
St. Mary - Eden Hills
O’Halloran Hill - Happy Valley
Christie Downs - Morphett Vale
MFS Stations CFS Brigades
Gawler - Dalkeith
Elizabeth - Dalkeith
Salisbury - Salisbury
Oakden - Tea Tree Gully
Golden Grove - Tea Tree Gully
Prospect - Burnside
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If you want to talk about closest, most appropriate resources, then you would only ever have Burnside, Happy Valley, Stirling, Mt. Barker and Morphett Vale doing CoQ because they're the only brigades that are close to the CBD, have the equipment and a majority of competent members to provide a semi-professional service to the CBD.
Mt Barker closer to the city ??? Maybe a bit of a typo or has Barker moved recently.
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A. Don't forget that the pre determined stations don't take into account the actual job that has caused the COQ.
B. I beleive comms can only have 2 CFS trucks off their own back until they have to consult the region....... and if i was region i would go mmm you already have east and north trucks so you can have some south trucks.
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So what is the case if the following happens:
A. Some of the stations are able to crew an appliance to do a COQ for a set period of time (typically the shortest amount of time that a single firefighter is available)...
B. some of the CFS brigades are unable to provide a crewed appliance.
Would it be comfortable to say that brigades like:
North: Virginia, One Tree Hill, Roseworthy,
East/West: Norton Summit, Bridgewater, Balhannah, Mt Barker, Hahndorf,
South: Upper Sturt, Blackwood, Clarendon, Seaford, Aldgina Beach
Could provide COQ to MFS area if the 1st Round of CFS brigades have been "used up"? Considering that the appliance has a full crew of BA...and preferably RCR/Hazmat operators that could be taken onto the COQ-producing incident?
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So what is the case if the following happens:
A. Some of the stations are able to crew an appliance to do a COQ for a set period of time (typically the shortest amount of time that a single firefighter is available)...
B. some of the CFS brigades are unable to provide a crewed appliance.
Would it be comfortable to say that brigades like:
North: Virginia, One Tree Hill, Roseworthy,
East/West: Norton Summit, Bridgewater, Balhannah, Mt Barker, Hahndorf,
South: Upper Sturt, Blackwood, Clarendon, Seaford, Aldgina Beach
Could provide COQ to MFS area if the 1st Round of CFS brigades have been "used up"? Considering that the appliance has a full crew of BA...and preferably RCR/Hazmat operators that could be taken onto the COQ-producing incident?
Absolutely, it happenned back in the late 80`s when they had the ship fire that lasted for 2 weeks. CFS brigades were rotated and crews were rotated through various stations.
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yeah, its a grand story i hear lots hehe, woulda been an interesting time.
The question is, are we the CFS, prepared for a similar occurance to that of the 80's Ship fire.
Because really...it doesnt take much to turn multiple CFS brigades into the First responding appliances in Metropolitan area's.
My Judgement: We're under-prepared by a long shot.
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Mt Barker closer to the city ??? Maybe a bit of a typo or has Barker moved recently.
No typo, 'Closest and most appropriate". They are close and appropriate considering they have a pumper, have an RCR capability, deal with Urban incidents on a regular basis and have a high quality of members.
I was having a slight stir as well, but I'd rather have Mt. Barker CoQ for SAMFS than most of the other brigades between the CBD and Mt. Barker.
So here is a question, is there any provision within the current CoQ arrangements to ensure RCR/Hazmat coverage when CoQ is undertaken? I understand that most of the time there is no need for it, but what happens at large incidents with most SAMFS GP Pumps and Pump/Rescues at work, the Heavy Rescue staging and the BA/Hazmat bus in a support function? If there is a large scale requirement for CFS to CoQ is anyone tracking the Hazmat and Rescue resources?
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IF the brown stuff does hit the fan MFS can do a recall of staff that are off duty,they could / would mann the spare appliances and I am sure if they looked they would find the RCR/Hazmat gear that they need. On the other hand CFS members who have RCR/Hazmat could mann MFS spare appliances.....
SA is not the only state to have Volunteers mann perm stations for long periods over the years ,there have been many fire's and hazmat jobs in victoria where CFA staff and volunteers have maned the MFB stations for very long periods...One thing that we dont do alot of here in this state is COQ with in our own CFS service .....
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Well i aimed to promote discussion and certainly achieved that. :-D
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Some interesting internation concepts for Mutual Aid...
The UK utilises a process of the responding Mutual Aid resource will commit to the incident which caused the mutual aid request, releasing the requesting service back to their own area of cover.
Benefits of this process is that the requesting service can then provide coverage to the area that they know. For ambulance services this mean local knowledge of hospitals, nursing home and staff. A local service liaison remains in support of the mutual support service.
For the fire service I see a similar advantage were the requesting service is returned to cover it's area with knowledge of local procedures, FIP's, plans, etc.
This system would not work for resource heavy incidents like the hazmat at Salisbury on Monday, but some other incident come to mind where it could work.
Mitcham Shopping Centre fire, Belair and Burnside committed to the incident, with (from memory) Eden Hills at St Mary's, Happy Valley at the Hill, Morphett Vale at Christies and TTG at Gylnde (please don't lynch me if I'm wrong). It may have been better for Happy Valley, Eden, Morphett Vale and TTG or closer multiple appliance CFS brigades (Stirling, Aldgate, Blackwood, Upper Sturt...) to respond to the incident to release more MFS crews back to there areas.
Similarly the Abattoirs Fire at Port Wakefield, protracted incident where a significant number of CFS brigade were involved for a very long time. Perhap utilising a couple of MFS appliances or crews to release local appliance back to their response area would make some sense.
Just my thoughts, I think there is certainly some benefits to flipping the mutual aid processes. Could be a little politically sensitive and hard on the 'ownership' of incident from local crews, but it is tried and tested in other services.
Comments?
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HAHAHAHAHA.......I can just hear em screaming on this forum now...
"HOW DARE THEY SEND A SAMFS CREW OUT OF THE CITY TO FIGHT OUR FIRES......."
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I've got an impending sense of doom and the thunder clouds suround me!!!!
Got to say that it does work though!
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It sounds like a system that would work but as you say "ownership" would get in the way.
Cant say i blame them either though. For starters we dont have the capabilities of the MFS to be able to do that at a large structure fire. Second, why would the MFS want to give a big job and return to their area and run alarm after alarm? Its basically one of the reasons they joined, to see the big one!
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Mt Barker closer to the city ??? Maybe a bit of a typo or has Barker moved recently.
No typo, 'Closest and most appropriate". They are close and appropriate considering they have a pumper, have an RCR capability, deal with Urban incidents on a regular basis and have a high quality of members.
but isn't their pumper and rescue the same truck? so they can't send that miles away as it would leave a large area around Mt Barker without RCR coverage. So it doesn't sound "appropriate" to me and there are many others that much closer too.
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A good point here is making sure that the appliance attending the "job" has the capabilities to replace the one leaving. It's just a pity that no consideration is given to supporting MFS when new appliances are allocated. The Govt should put in a bit of cash for urban interface brigades especially in this day and age of Terrorist threats etc. Plenty of money has been poured into USAR, but no ones gonna be useing their USAR gear until the fire is out. Like James Belair should really still have a pump purely for the fact that you are so close to town.
I mean imagine if the Westpac building got blown up or something and needed say 2 4th alarms worth and they say Belair when you get here relay 4 lines of 64 from light square down to the scene..... "Ah sorry you will have to get a pumper to do that".... oh look the next 2 trucks coming in are tea tree gully and Athelstone..... makes life a bit hard really.
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Agreed Tillerman, would be nice that some consideration surrounding appropriate appliance for the 'what if's' exist instead of an appliance that just gets by.
Some other consideration for Mutual Aid are the response of 'cells' or a task force equivalent, where if a large incident is underway instead of individual appliance responding to different locations. A cell of multiple capacity appliances responds into one area.
I guess this could be in a situation where the likes of a CFS Hazmat Pumper (Murray Bridge or Eden Hills), Rescue Pumper (Seaford - this is an example I know they are not a full rescue brigade), couple of 34Ps and a GO or DGO responding into one specific area or region. This would have the advantage of reasonable pumping capabilities, broader role capacity (RCR Hazmat etc) and the ability to not grab the most immediate brigades for Mutual Aid support.
My concerns about mutual aid for larger metropolitan incident comes from the commitment of resources from the immediate surrounding area deep into the metro area. If MFS where heavily committed to a northern incident and you had multiple COQ's heading north (TTG to 37, NSA to 22, Belair, Eden to 20, Burnside to 24, Happy Valley to 40, Stirling to 44...) and the likes of a 2nd or 3rd alarm incident to occur in the hills interface area (say the Waite Institute or Heysen Tunnels) the normal response into that area would be decreased. It really is a balancing act, and I think this is some of the thought that went into the COQ's on Monday.
I thing back to the 90's when early task forces where sent early to KI for fires where you would take couple of appliances from Southern Fleurieu, Kyeema, Victor and Mawson Groups to not leave any group significantly under resourced.
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With both the large scale USAR type incident and the task force cell idea, in theory it should include non-fire rescue, investigation and planning resources.
Why deploy multiple combined fire/rescue appliances when you can put a dedicated rescue, dedicated urban fire & dedicated rural fire vehicles/crew in the mix ? It would seem to me that more equipment & skills would be available to the strike force cell.
Then the combined fire/rescue appliance can cover the original patch.
PS. Interesting to see that the large MFS Incident Command bus got a run at the Salisbury HazMat incident.
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2090 woulda definately been worthwhile at the hazmat...think about the planning capabilities for evacuations?
Agreed Tillerman, would be nice that some consideration surrounding appropriate appliance for the 'what if's' exist instead of an appliance that just gets by.
Some other consideration for Mutual Aid are the response of 'cells' or a task force equivalent, where if a large incident is underway instead of individual appliance responding to different locations. A cell of multiple capacity appliances responds into one area.
I guess this could be in a situation where the likes of a CFS Hazmat Pumper (Murray Bridge or Eden Hills), Rescue Pumper (Seaford - this is an example I know they are not a full rescue brigade), couple of 34Ps and a GO or DGO responding into one specific area or region. This would have the advantage of reasonable pumping capabilities, broader role capacity (RCR Hazmat etc) and the ability to not grab the most immediate brigades for Mutual Aid support.
My concerns about mutual aid for larger metropolitan incident comes from the commitment of resources from the immediate surrounding area deep into the metro area. If MFS where heavily committed to a northern incident and you had multiple COQ's heading north (TTG to 37, NSA to 22, Belair, Eden to 20, Burnside to 24, Happy Valley to 40, Stirling to 44...) and the likes of a 2nd or 3rd alarm incident to occur in the hills interface area (say the Waite Institute or Heysen Tunnels) the normal response into that area would be decreased. It really is a balancing act, and I think this is some of the thought that went into the COQ's on Monday.
I thing back to the 90's when early task forces where sent early to KI for fires where you would take couple of appliances from Southern Fleurieu, Kyeema, Victor and Mawson Groups to not leave any group significantly under resourced.
Yeah tis quite interesting, if ya laid it out all right after the First layer "The already current and prepared EMA Brigades" the second layer would be:
GP Pump: Coromandell Valley, Roseworthy, Bridgewater, Aldgate, Norton Summit, Clarendon, Aldinga Beach
Hazmat Pump: Balhannah, Murray Bridge, Yankalilla, Nuriootpa, Willunga
RCR Pump: Virginia, Mt Barker, Meadows, Blackwood.
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Lots of brigade would fit into that process I think.
Does anyone have photos of Monday's job?
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Someone has to draw a line in the sand though. You cant fund trucks on the worst case scenario, their simply isnt enough money to go around. Agreed perhaps Urban Interface brigades should have pumpers or perhaps some sort of Urban Interface appliance capable of urban work but that is where it should end, otherwise brigades could argue, if such and such, and such and such are committed we will need a pumper. blah blah blah! :-D
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Some other consideration for Mutual Aid are the response of 'cells' or a task force equivalent, where if a large incident is underway instead of individual appliance responding to different locations. A cell of multiple capacity appliances responds into one area.
I guess this could be in a situation where the likes of a CFS Hazmat Pumper (Murray Bridge or Eden Hills), Rescue Pumper (Seaford - this is an example I know they are not a full rescue brigade), couple of 34Ps and a GO or DGO responding into one specific area or region. This would have the advantage of reasonable pumping capabilities, broader role capacity (RCR Hazmat etc) and the ability to not grab the most immediate brigades for Mutual Aid support.
My concerns about mutual aid for larger metropolitan incident comes from the commitment of resources from the immediate surrounding area deep into the metro area. If MFS where heavily committed to a northern incident and you had multiple COQ's heading north (TTG to 37, NSA to 22, Belair, Eden to 20, Burnside to 24, Happy Valley to 40, Stirling to 44...) and the likes of a 2nd or 3rd alarm incident to occur in the hills interface area (say the Waite Institute or Heysen Tunnels) the normal response into that area would be decreased. It really is a balancing act, and I think this is some of the thought that went into the COQ's on Monday.
Great ideas, yet the CFS needs to change to adopt some modern concepts. The provision to send RCR and Hazmat Strike teams does exist, yet it rarely seen. You almost need to create a CoQ Strike team setup, as suggested that comprises of Hazmat and Rescue resources and could go and sit at 20 stn when the need arises.
The other issue that needs to be address is the "Hazmat Pump" and "Rescue Pump". Both of these physically exist in the CFS yet there is no provision for naming or special calling them. There is also no provision for them in the green book, which causes issues as they are no recognised as a rescue resource even though a Rescue Pump can handle 99% of RCR jobs. Bring back the old Rescue system, or at the very least break it into Rapid Intervention/Rescue/Heavy Rescue.
This then brings in the $$$ cost of up grading current Rescue stations to a level of equipment/vehicles required to fill the classifications, or the cost of training other brigades and operators. I see no reason, apart from the cost, why every rescue brigade cannot have two appliances with rescue gear funded and recognised as rescue resources. Stand alone or Rescue pumpers, this allows versatility and the ability to CoQ and respond out of areas without diminishing the response to the Brigades own Rescue area.
With both the large scale USAR type incident and the task force cell idea, in theory it should include non-fire rescue, investigation and planning resources.
Why deploy multiple combined fire/rescue appliances when you can put a dedicated rescue, dedicated urban fire & dedicated rural fire vehicles/crew in the mix ? It would seem to me that more equipment & skills would be available to the strike force cell.
Then the combined fire/rescue appliance can cover the original patch.
Didn't take long for the "What about us in Orange!". :P
Of course the SES are getting a run in a USAR job, the CFS doesn't even know what USAR stands for. In terms of CoQ Rescue response into the city, the Metropolitan SES Units couldn't Rescue their way out of a wet paperbag with a steak knife set - do you really want to wait for crews from Laura and other places out in the sticks? I understand what you are saying, but if the CFS got smart, they could easily have some very versatile setups.
Someone has to draw a line in the sand though...
I can't wait to see CoQ used as the basis of an argument to get a new truck. Hell that three storey building might catch fire in our area, we need a Skyjet at the MINIMUM!
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I can't wait to see CoQ used as the basis of an argument to get a new truck.
I think it was mentioned somewhere on here thats exactly why a certain brigade should get a certain new truck wasnt it?
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I think it was mentioned somewhere on here thats exactly why a certain brigade should get a certain new truck wasnt it?
On a second reading, I believe you are correct. No use getting a truck for a brigade based on the risk in someone elses area, and the fact that it "Might" get used. Jesus, all the aerials in SAMFS might get used, I think we need one, JUST IN CASE!
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"HELLLLOOO PEOPLE" all this panic over nuthin, remember the government are getting the......Skycrane, thats right ,yeah.. I know you forgot, the Skycrane fixes everything.. so just lieback and enjoy the ride..ooohhh skycrane you big bad expensive ariel panacea.
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SKY CRANE OH HOLY SKY CRANE, SAVE US
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Why can't I land my Skycrane at 20stn!?!
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HELITAK 736, you can take a stop for call.
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On a second reading, I believe you are correct. No use getting a truck for a brigade based on the risk in someone elses area, and the fact that it "Might" get used. Jesus, all the aerials in SAMFS might get used, I think we need one, JUST IN CASE!
Or a brigade that doesnt really have an area?
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On a second reading, I believe you are correct. No use getting a truck for a brigade based on the risk in someone elses area, and the fact that it "Might" get used. Jesus, all the aerials in SAMFS might get used, I think we need one, JUST IN CASE!
Or a brigade that doesnt really have an area?
now who could that be? :evil: hhaahhaaa
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On a second reading, I believe you are correct. No use getting a truck for a brigade based on the risk in someone elses area, and the fact that it "Might" get used. Jesus, all the aerials in SAMFS might get used, I think we need one, JUST IN CASE!
Or a brigade that doesnt really have an area?
now who could that be? :evil: hhaahhaaa
Now now, they saved REALLY hard for that truck, and it took them YEARS! Don't get worried about the fact that they don't have a area of their own to use it in, they just bring their toys to jobs that other people have!
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On a second reading, I believe you are correct. No use getting a truck for a brigade based on the risk in someone elses area, and the fact that it "Might" get used. Jesus, all the aerials in SAMFS might get used, I think we need one, JUST IN CASE!
Or a brigade that doesnt really have an area?
now who could that be? :evil: hhaahhaaa
Now now, they saved REALLY hard for that truck, and it took them YEARS! Don't get worried about the fact that they don't have a area of their own to use it in, they just bring their toys to jobs that other people have!
Can just see it now in the "jobs wanted" section of the next Volunteer magazine.
Have new truck will travel....anywhere...desperate ...PLEASE VYO
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Anyway they had a bit of a story about the hazmat on the news the other day and they said either the person or people that did the damage either knew what they were doing or were extremely lucky not to be dead right now. Seems the company will be closed for a while until they fix the damage.
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On a second reading, I believe you are correct. No use getting a truck for a brigade based on the risk in someone elses area, and the fact that it "Might" get used. Jesus, all the aerials in SAMFS might get used, I think we need one, JUST IN CASE!
Or a brigade that doesnt really have an area?
now who could that be? :evil: hhaahhaaa
Now now, they saved REALLY hard for that truck, and it took them YEARS! Don't get worried about the fact that they don't have a area of their own to use it in, they just bring their toys to jobs that other people have!
Can just see it now in the "jobs wanted" section of the next Volunteer magazine.
Have new truck will travel....anywhere...desperate ...PLEASE VYO
"Adelaide Fire, are you SURE you don't require a pumper at that bin alight in Cockburn?"
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All very amusing 8-) Let's try to keep it roughly on topic though.......
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Some interesting internation concepts for Mutual Aid...
The UK utilises a process of the responding Mutual Aid resource will commit to the incident which caused the mutual aid request, releasing the requesting service back to their own area of cover.
<snip>
Just my thoughts, I think there is certainly some benefits to flipping the mutual aid processes. Could be a little politically sensitive and hard on the 'ownership' of incident from local crews, but it is tried and tested in other services.
Comments?
Not only is it tried & tested in other services, but it is tried and
tested in CFS. eg Yorke Penn fires this last summer - outside crews
relieved local crews at "the big one" so that local crews could
respond to the usual stuff. Same for repeat NSW fires - CFS/CFA/QRFS
took over the fire-fighting so that locals could a] have a breather,
& b] respond normally to local stuff.
Ownership & management of the fire didn't go to the visiting team -
just the work. Same applies to Mutual Aid jobs. MFS doesn't relinquish
control of a fire at O'Halloran Hill just because most of the appliances
are white. CFS wouldn't relinquish control of a hazmat at (for example)
Dublin just because a bunch of red appliances got called in.
So it shouldn't be a real issue for our own mutual aid - merely an
excuse for the usual wind-bags to moan that the world is coming to
an end. Again.
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Good to see that the old "this is my turf" thing is getting another run.
Numbers if the "Orange people", are not up to the task - thats because for a number of years they have been treated as second class. That situation is slowly changing.
I would like to know when is the Country Fire Service going to stop trying to be the jack of all trades?
Some of you are happy to do a Change of Quarters to paid metro stations, but when the reverse is true look out!
You people have great training, equipment & people and a good funding model as well. Yet it's waisted in duplication, empire building and turf protection.
By the way All emergencies are owned by the community, not by one particular service.
As I have said in the past the 3 services need to remember why they were formed & stop worrying about what everyone else is doing! If the Mets come out to do a very major job in a CFS area people should be cheering, not having a whinge!
As a matter of interest here in NSW, the duplication thing is being soughted as I speak with the ambulance service rescue teams being cut back, so think about it.
You guys are very lucky, tax payer provided equipment, vehicles etc & you don't have to fund raise & beg for the basics - its issued (do you have to fund raise to pay the phone bill for example? Until recently they did here!)
So in closing think about Why you are really there, instead of bitching all of the time!
cheers
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Good to see that the old "this is my turf" thing is getting another run.
Numbers if the "Orange people", are not up to the task - thats because for a number of years they have been treated as second class. That situation is slowly changing.
Ok, lets just stop this before it begins. My comments were directed to metro units, who are not treated as second class, they are just untrained and unused in RCR roles because the Fire Service handles it well and they are not needed. The CFS is not attempting to be a jack of all trades, merely continuing on a tradition that has always been there. If you believe that the CFS is attempting to be a jack of all trades, then by god the SAMFS is most certainly guilty as well.
Chook, being from the country, you of all people should know about the lack of volunteers and having a single pool of people, not split between services, providing all emergency services to a town is most certainly the most beneficial way for things to operate.
No point getting into another discussion about SES vs Fire here, as we all already know each others opinions.
I think half the problem with people getting so antsy about what the other services are doing and whose area they are in comes from personality clashes. There are idiots in all our emergency services, if only we could see past that and not tar all brigades/unit/stations with the same brush it would be great. This is not to say that I'm not very guilty of this myself...
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Same Same :-D
Just seems to me that some (not necessarily you mate)hate the idea of a multi agency combined response or mutual aid is a bad idea & use the argument of "well we could do this all by ourselves, if we have the gear!).
This is just plain stupid in my humble opinion, it is waistful of equipment, time & people!
As for the SES thing - personally I don't care! (not part of that organisation any more)Except that history backs up what I said & it is slowly changing across the whole service - so how about looking at the service with fresh eyes & give them a chance! They could be trained but there are some within SES who think the metro units are just a waste!
Anyway mate as always its good to have an intelligent conversation with someone who has very different views to me.
cheers
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Very true chook. One thing that we seem to lose sight of so often as Volunteers in all SA Emergency Services is that we are pretty damn well off when compared to the rest of the country. We may not have Scania Pumps, Brontos, CFW Cylinders or Salvage/Rescues like the CFA, but in the scheme of things, we are right up there in terms of training, equipment and vehicles. Even for a small state with a small budget.
Dont worry Chooky, we dont differ all that much I think - We both agree on common sense ;)
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It wasn't that long ago that her in SA, brigades did have to fundraise to pay their phone bill, (if they even had a phone!), put fuel in the 25 year old truck, which they still had, because their community didn't have the capacity to raise enough funds to buy a newer one...
Some areas were lucky, and had good support from the local council, and the basics (and sometimes more) were funded. Other areas had a very supportive council, but that council didn't have the capcity to pay much....
In the mid to late 1990's there was a Group in the Mid North, who survived on the same amount of money as one Hills brigade......
It is all very well to go on about how lucky SA is compared to other states, but it only because there was a lot of pushing done in the mid to late 1990's to enable a state based funding model to come through.....it's just that the other states are just along way behind us!!
Pip
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Pip in the 90's there were 2 Groups in R1 which had an operating budget less than a couple brigades in the same region!
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Quick Quick!
For funding fun:
http://www.safirefighter.com/boards/index.php/topic,1952.0.html
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Good to see that the old "this is my turf" thing is getting another run.
Numbers if the "Orange people", are not up to the task - thats because for a number of years they have been treated as second class. That situation is slowly changing.
Ok, lets just stop this before it begins. My comments were directed to metro units, who are not treated as second class, they are just untrained and unused in RCR roles because the Fire Service handles it well and they are not needed....
Sorry, I can't 'stop' this without a comment :-P
Numbers, please visit Noarlunga, Tea Tree Gully or Sturt SES Units to have a look. Agreed all of the operators are not perfect, but some are damn good.
The other Central Region SES Units are building, but I agree are not at that level.
Yes, they are not experienced RCR, but you would have the equipment in the truck for you to use. They are also experienced in other forms of industrial and urban rescue techniques that CFS might not be.
As people keep saying, fire incidents are not the only incident that CFS & MFS are responding to now :-D SES can assist with the others.
All I suggest is look at the risk and the best method all three services can provide equipment/people to meet that risk.
I also think COQ plans need to be created for Rural (non MFS) areas. When a CFS Brigade is at COQ to a MFS station, then they have less resources in their original area. Is this planned for (other than the page of 'we have limited volunteers in the area, pls respond to calls' ) ?
*** my personal opinion only ***
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...HUFF PUFF WHAT ABOUT US!...
Yes the SES in the Central region are great with their salvage sheets and some of their shoring jobs - I'll agree with that. I've dealt personally with TTG and Sturt at jobs, and Sturt especially have proven to be incompetent at cutting down trees, a job that is meant to be your bread and butter.
I'll agree that there should be the possibility for the SES to assist at times when the Fire Service is stretched thin, but at the same time, when the metro crews (the ones who would do any of your suggested CoQ) are not competent in the most basic of tasks, how on earth can you compare them to Fire Services that do the job day in day out and allow them to take their place?
Anyhow, this is not the area for such a discussion, and from your other posts on this forums its obvious that you would prefer if the Fire Service State-wide did nothing but fires and that the SES had a collection of vehicles in Wakefield st. For CBD Rescue. Its like slamming your head against a brick wall.
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not sure which brigade ur talking bout but i saw cockburn mention there...if it is them ya mite find there non existent....
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not sure which brigade ur talking bout but i saw cockburn mention there...if it is them ya mite find there non existent....
And with them went the best Brigade name in the whole state!
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not sure which brigade ur talking bout but i saw cockburn mention there...if it is them ya mite find there non existent....
And with them went the best Brigade name in the whole state!
hehehe yea its now up in the north east of the state some where
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Still closed down - sadly agree good name but :-D
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sorry i correct my self its in the north west in the aboriginal lands
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yep think i know where
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.....Anyhow, this is not the area for such a discussion, and from your other posts on this forums its obvious that you would prefer if the Fire Service State-wide did nothing but fires and that the SES had a collection of vehicles in Wakefield st. For CBD Rescue. Its like slamming your head against a brick wall.
I have sent you a private message rather than post in this thread....you could not be further from the truth. But that is the wonder of text, it can be mis-interpreted. :mrgreen:
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But that is the wonder of text, it can be mis-interpreted.
wow - who would have thought?...on a forum that has a core group of nerds with nothing better to do than get upset at other forum members who use this site as a source of amusement (or was that wonderment) at how many narrow-minded people there are in the world who call themselves professional (sic) volunteers!!
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But that is the wonder of text, it can be mis-interpreted.
wow - who would have thought?...on a forum that has a core group of nerds with nothing better to do than get upset at other forum members who use this site as a source of amusement (or was that wonderment) at how many narrow-minded people there are in the world who call themselves professional (sic) volunteers!!
Hey hey hey! This forums is a very serious place, and should be treated as such. All of the discussion that goes on here is vitally important to all those involved! My goodness boredmatrix, I simply cannot believe that you would come in here and suggest that these forums are full of narrow minded people! Personally I have never met a group of such welcoming and open minded people in my entire life!
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sorry i correct my self its in the north west in the aboriginal lands
Might want to re-correct yourself its about 70k from Broken Hill just over the SA border.
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NSWFB are currently covering the cockburn area.
I got bored reading all the posts but the idea i got was that ses want to do COQ, mmm that would never work because even if you did send a cfs stand alone rescue into the city then the crew could at least still grab an air set and hose off of a firetruck and use it where as ses can't.
And yes most groups have plans for if trucks leave their area of how to cover the area. eg strategic stations to keep appliances at.
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No Tillerman - only one ses member flagged that idea. It is not practical for volunteers from SES to sit on their arse in a station (away from their payed jobs) while payed firefighters do their thing! Just the same as CFS vollies doing COQ.
By the way who is covering Broken Hill while NSWFB is over the border? Think you would find it would be a dual response(NSWFB & NSWSES) just like it was a few years ago (according to an ex Cockburn member who had to join NSWSES to do RCR).
Anyway I'm sure there will be arguments until dooms day about this subject, there are good reasons for CFS to do COQ (experience etc) & bad (after all it is only supposed to be a part time volunteer requirement to serve your local community).
Unless of course most CFS members in the fringe areas are unemployed & are looking for something to do - this I very much doubt :-D
cheers
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Not that it matters that much but an interesting thing to note is that most Vollies in the urban area wouldn't leave work to go to calls as not many work near their station, they would generally be shift workers at home or unemployed or self employed i would think. This is why some urban brigades struggle during the day, because everyone leaves the area to go to work elsewhere.
I am surprised more retained aren't used for COQ, Kapunda and Tanunda aren't that far away. Considering Nuri went to the Hazmat.
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nah Nuri, Stirling and Balhannah (the change over shift) got turned back as they scaled down the job around the same time they went mobile.
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sorry i correct my self its in the north west in the aboriginal lands
Might want to re-correct yourself its about 70k from Broken Hill just over the SA border.
has it gone back up there or are we got our wires crossed with what we are talking about?
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sorry i correct my self its in the north west in the aboriginal lands
Might want to re-correct yourself its about 70k from Broken Hill just over the SA border.
has it gone back up there or are we got our wires crossed with what we are talking about?
You were correct the first time mate, Cockburn is a small town north east of Adelaide. On the NSW/SA border.
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sorry i correct my self its in the north west in the aboriginal lands
Might want to re-correct yourself its about 70k from Broken Hill just over the SA border.
has it gone back up there or are we got our wires crossed with what we are talking about?
You were correct the first time mate, Cockburn is a small town north east of Adelaide. On the NSW/SA border.
yup we all got our wires crossed...the actual cockburn 24 truck i was talking about lol..it got bought dow to R4 headquarters some work done on it and last i heard was going out north west somewhere in the aboriginal lands.
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I am surprised more retained aren't used for COQ, Kapunda and Tanunda aren't that far away. Considering Nuri went to the Hazmat.
Unlikely to happen without a very alturistic Incident Controller or Comms Superviser. If you think the CFS get a raw deal from our salaried brothers (which apart from one particular bug bear I don't necessarily believe we do), then spare a thought for the retained guys......they are most definitely the poor relations in the MFS, treated badly, equipped poorly, and really are regarded like a separate fire service within.