SA Firefighter
Technical Discussion => Hypotheticals => Topic started by: bittenyakka on September 27, 2006, 06:21:26 PM
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OK
it is Saturday afternoon about 1500 and a fire had started at on the third floor of mount lofty house. Who do you respond and how do you go about putting the fire out? it is completely up to you.
The wind is blowing smoke away from the road to wards Crafers and each CFS crew you call can only have 3 BA operators.
I will voice my strategies after I hear some of yours
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need more details such as fire condition, how strong it is.
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look at a normal hypothetical for example
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every fire is different, firefighter of the year should know that.
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Stirling and Aldgate will get responded as they monitor the fixed alarm. As this is hypothetical, they all get massive crews, and Stirling responds their Pumper, 12 and Tanker. Aldgate responds their 12 and 24P.
First arriving appliance is Stirling pumper; They get 2 members in BA and enter the building as Aldgate 12 arrives.
Mt Lofty house has no in-building hydrant system, so the crews will have to take hose in with them. I'm going to make the fire small, so the crews take in a 25mm hose. (The stairs are narrow and very winding, I'd hate to take a 38 up them).
Crews extinguish the fire, and with the assistance of some extra BA teams, they clean up and vent the place!
:)
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Stirling and Aldgate are responded automagically, with Stirling Pumper and 12 first in, followed by Aldgate 12 and 24P. 64mm Hose to the door, multiple lengths of 38mm in, assuming that the job is on the top level of the accomodation wings. 2x BA from Pumper and 2x from 12 are first in, provide inital knockdown of the fire. If required the 4xBA from Aldgate can bring in a second line.
If the shite hits the fan, then Upper Sturt and Bridgewater will be turned out.
(is it cheating that I have the floor plans in my car?)
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I wanted to give more freedom but ok
The fire is on the top (third floor) started in a room from a heater the occupants opened there room and a large backdraft? Caused the fire to spread over half the floor. The emergency stairs door has failed and burning martial has fallen down to the second floor.
Buy the time any appliance gats there the roof is on fire.
I am not to sure of the layout so forgive incorrect interior description.
yes it is cheating
oh and each brigade can only turn out one appliance
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My 25mm hose might not be enough for that scenario..... ;)
When you say 3 BA crew, do you mean only 3 crew, or only 3 BA?
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Well, while CFS_Firey is pissing into the wind with his 25mm, the rest of us will have a three line interior attack ( 2x on the 3rd storey 1x on the 2nd). Upper Sturt and Bridgewater turned out, maaaaybe Piccadilly.
If this doesnt work, then interior crews retreat to interior defensive, with Stirling Pumper using its monitor to wet the roof/rooms.
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3 BA opperators per appliance
Would't Summertown beat Bridgewater
maaaaybe Piccadilly.
Why maaaayby UBS makes them closer than everyone?
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If this doesnt work, then interior crews retreat to interior defensive, with Stirling Pumper using its monitor to wet the roof/rooms.
Respond Bradbury as well if you want to use the monitor (For tanker that is).
What does the 2nd story attack line do? Watch TV?
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call in waterbombers to dump a few loads over the house, that will do the job meanwhile CFS people stay nice and dry inside the appliance with the penis I mean monitor taking out a few spottis on the ground.
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3 BA opperators per appliance
Would't Summertown beat Bridgewater
maaaaybe Piccadilly.
Why maaaayby UBS makes them closer than everyone?
Because of the response plan! But Stirling and Aldgate are automatically paged upon alarm activation (as of tomorrow!)
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as it's mount lofty the bombers whould be automatic responce if its in summer...
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Blinky, water bombers are only automatically responded to rural jobs...
*(Wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic so thought I'd better clear it up)
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Blinky, water bombers are only automatically responded to rural jobs...
*(Wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic so thought I'd better clear it up)
How did the call originate...if it came as a fixed alarm (which seems to happen regularly) then bombers wouldn't be dispatched.
BUT perhaps smoke from the fire has been spotted from the Mt Lofty Tower, or a keen eyed CFS member driving through the Piccadilly valley spotted smoke, and reported it as such. Then the bombers would be on auto dispatch...... so Blinky's suggestion is not as silly as you make it out to be... :lol:
Besides, the place has just been sold, so it will probably be in refurb mode, and no guests to be seen!! :lol:
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Well if there is no guests why not surround and drown? it would mean not risking CFS members lives.
now you have the proper scenario what do you think?
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We'll get the fixed alarm activate, and hopefully a 000 call. Why surround and drown when you can save property? It may wel get to a point where we have to, but I'd rather a shot at knocking it down first. If the occupants opened the door to their room and it backdrafted then you're going to have atleast two rather badly injured people. This would also suggest that the rest of the hotel was occupied.
The second attack line is in due to there being multiple rooms, multiple entrances and multiple exposures in the 3 storey block.
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Gives the bombers somthing to do and where there is smoke there is fire..... :lol:
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Is there Water up there?
If there is I would respond Stirling pumper, Aldgate 24p, due to the low crew avalible Summertown 34 & Piccadilly 24. if it is populated mabey consider asking for a MFS latter to be sent up. 2x64mm to ground floor so 4x33mm into the building (if enough BA operaters are willing) use 2x38 to attack the top floor fire and 1 to cover a rescue team while the last prevents spreading on the 2nd floor. due to the lack of avalible BA opperaters 12 I might call Upper Sturt and Bridgewater to respond.
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Don't forget that its a saturay afternoon, so both Stirling and Aldgate will be able to get two appliances out the door. Also Aldgates 12 is their Urban appliance :wink:
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Is the fire going well inside the building, or is it confined to one floor or one room....? If still contained within an area, surely attack using Compartment Fire fighting techniques would be better. I don't think the new owners would be too impressed that their new acquisition has
$200,000 fire damage, and $300,000 smoke & water damage.....
While not that familiar with the fire fighting resources based at Mt Lofty House, I would imagine that it has a large water, storage tank somewhere....it may even have an internal sprinkler system, or hydrant system.......can anyone clarify if that is the case, or otherwise....?
And remember - the state's firefighting resources do not end at Mt Lofty Group.. :-D
Pip
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dunno about supression systems, but CFS_Firey stated there was no hydrant system
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That's right medevac No mains water, no booster system. They have large tanks attached to hydrants outside, but those tanks run the whole place, they aren't reserved for fire (hence they may not be full).
Pipster - bittenyakka said the roof was on fire, so I'm assuming he means the fire has broken through the roof (So no compartment techniques)
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as pip said, I'd have a few East Torrens brigades as well, plus if no mains water, definitely lofty tanker as well as stirlings (it's bigger and 2 tankers means 1 can go and refill).
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Missed the bit about roof fire...in that case, if it had already broken through the roof by the time crews arrived, do NOT drown the whole thing with water - you will potentially destroy the evidence of the accelerant used to start it...... :-o
Fire investigators get really annoyed when firies destroy their evidence... :-(
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Who is better to deal with? the investigators because we washed their evedence away or the hotel manager who now doesnt have a building becuase we had to use restraint to protect evidence?
what about burnside tanker as well we could use their water tanks to store water in and tankers can go back and fourth.
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ah.. But using restraint to protect evidence it would be an aggresive internal attack. A bit more useful that surround and drown.
If you needed more tankers, Summertown/Norton Summit/Carey Gully would be a bit closer than Burnside/Bradbury.
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Who is better to deal with? the investigators because we washed their evidence away or the hotel manager who now doesn't have a building because we had to use restraint to protect evidence?
I figure neither of them want the building drowned......
How many people reading this hypothetical have had the training on preservation of fire scenes (both bush fire & building) ?
I would hope EVERYONE has some basic knowledge of preservation of evidence.
If not, I might have to take to carrying my gun the scenes...as I said, fire investigators get very grumpy when firies destroy the evidence - especially evidence that can identify who lit it!!! (As I have witnessed first hand...) :wink:
Pip
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Please?! Then those without commonsense can be gradually culled.
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You'd better watch out this year...I have moved work place, and now cover parts of your area....including for bushfire investigation...... :wink: :-)
Pip
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seeming as we have been hurled off topic, im gonna give my plan.
send stirling pumper, stirling tanker, aldgate 12, upper sturt 24, piccadilly 24 and summertown tanker (lofty tankers further away). If you wanna get serious call burnside pumper, summertown 34. personally, i call the pro's, get 441 up there. Use the scania while you can.
that way you have at least 25000 litres of water to play with. Im assuming this place is now close to 'parking lot' phase?
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Sorry to rain on your parade, but Stirling 12 and Bridgie URP are closer than Upper Sturt. What will 441 do? They're only an extra 4 BA. By the time they got there it'd be knocked down.
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thats okay more operators is good and you can always make a stop call. Lets say this fire is in 10 years you can call in MT Barker MFS :roll:
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More like Stirling MFS amirite?
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maybe both... :-o
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Thought I'd just better point out - We can only respond 1 appliance per brigade (as stated by bittenyakka on page 1) and we already know how the fire started (problem the with heater), so while the suggestions are all very good, try to keep an eye on what's already been said.. ;)
:)
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So how many times have we rocked up to a going domestic/commercial with "Heater causing backdraft of half of floor" being known upon arrival? Not to mention it being a saturday afternoon and every station only being able to get 1 appliance and 3BA out... :roll:
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^^How is that relevant? Try to keep posts on topic good chap.
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Because you generally don't know the cause of the fire untill its been extinguished and the fire techs have been in? Plus in this scenario, as Bittenyakka said, the occupants arrive, open the door and bang. (Mind you, how they didnt notice the smoke or smell, or the fire alarm going off is beyond me :wink:)
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This is a HYPOTHETICAL incident Toast. That means its not real. Its purpose is to see how you will fight the fire with the resources and knowledge bittenyakka has given you, its purpose is not to argue that those resources and knowledge are incorrect. Please don't take this off topic any more! :)
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ban him ban him! :-P
Maybe there is something on that Saturday afternoon so people have decided to ignore their pager, Bathurst or grand final maybe, and the occupants were having sex and werent able to notice the smoke or alarms as they were otherwise busy....
Is that the answer you want. :lol:
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The occupants were outside the room :wink:
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it was one hell of a session :-P :mrgreen:
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well My aim was to see how people would cope with a very large fire on arrival with slightly limeted resources. and to make it more intresting than small fire in one room on top floor. Which we could put out with a Dry chem and go home.
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Could we get a summary of what is known, as it is over about 20 posts, then it might be easier to formulate a plan... :)
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Some would say edit the first post...
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________________________________________
This a re post of all the information posts
it is Saturday afternoon about 1500 and a fire had started at on the third floor of mount lofty house. Who do you respond and how do you go about putting the fire out? it is completely up to you.
The wind is blowing smoke away from the road towards Crafers and each CFS crew you call can only have 3 BA operators.
The fire is on the top (third floor) started in a room occupants opened the door to their doom after going to the botanic gardens and a large backdraft? Caused the fire to spread over half the floor. For some reason know one smelt the smoke and the alarms failed to operate. The emergency stairs door has failed and burning martial has fallen down to the second floor.
Buy the time any appliance gats there the roof is on fire. And most of the top floor is burning
Each brigade can only turn out one appliance
The main reason for this is to se what people would do at a very large fire on arrival.
People tend to have responded
Stirling pumper
Aldgate 12
Piccadilly 24
Bridgewater pumper
441
Tankers, Summertown/Norton Summit/Carey Gully
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The main reason for this is to see what people would do at a very large fire on arrival.
On arrival I would upgrade to a second alarm structure fire, responding the resources already determined on the response plan for that risk. (I am not familiar with the building or its exposures, but a third alarm may be in order due to water availability? exposures and asset protection).
I would not commit crews to interior attack, using the principles of fire attack (RECEO) we found out: -
All persons are out of the building, exposures are unknown to myself, but we will go with the basics, areas not involved in fire, LPG cylinders against the wall, cars in the car port, adjoining buildings etc, we will contain the fire either offensively, or defensively knowing that: The emergency stairs door has failed and burning material has fallen down to the second floor. Buy the time any appliance gets there the roof is on fire. And most of the top floor is burning..
As an OIC I decide the risk of collapse is to great to send in crews, all persons are out of the building and the threat to life is nil. Our tactics will now be focused on defensive attack and asset/exposure protection. (It may not be as glorious as running in the front door with a hoseline, but one floor has already fallen through, I'm not letting the next take a crew member with it).
Once we have extinguished the fire to a degree which allows fire cause entry, we will work with them on overhaul/ salvage.
(Ventilation techniques would have been very difficult due to the roof being compromised) - but if they were possible at the time, im sure the experienced crew would have undertaken such techniques.
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All persons are out of the building,
Apart from the people who opened their door and were backdrafted on :wink:
(It may not be as glorious as running in the front door with a hoseline, but one floor has already fallen through, I'm not letting the next take a crew member with it).
No floor has fallen through, there is burning material that has come down the stairs, but no nasty structural damage
(Ventilation techniques would have been very difficult due to the roof being compromised) - but if they were possible at the time, im sure the experienced crew would have undertaken such techniques.
Why would they have been difficult? The roof burning through would have made them easier as heat and smoke rises, not to mention that there would be quite a few windows broken by the backdraft making ventilation easier and almost complete? Even if the windows weren't broken by the force of the backdraft, then a FF with a ladder and a Pike Pole/Axe/Halligan can do the job.
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zinged!
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Okay toast, im guessing you have had a substantial career in either a paid or volunteer service and have vast knowledge in many areas by the many opinionated posts ?
Now..
The roof is alight, the top floor is alight.. Have you ever been to any jobs where this is the case?
The jobs where I have been to have all resulted in collapse. (Either partly or wholely). Especially with the conditions described by Bittenyakka. It is *well* involved... This means massive deterioration to the supporting elements of the building. Things like Evap airconditioners lose the supports they were sitting on, they drop to the earth. Timber gerders, they drop, tiles, parts of ceiling, they drop, now they are dropping onto a fully involved top floor? Could that drop? Is the *risk* worth losing a firefighter or two? I think not.
Not to mention your first arriving appliance has 3 BA, so you cant send in anyone anyway ! BA Safety crew comes to mind. (Not to mention the limited water the crew would have to the hose while in there) - Meaning you have no one on exposure protection, no one finding a water source, who's running the pump and the job?
Apart from the people who opened their door and were backdrafted on.
Wouldn't the fire flash? I thought reaching 'flashpoint' is what occured when oxygen mixed with pyrolosis gasses and an ignition source causing the ideal mixture?
Why would they have been difficult? The roof burning through would have made them easier as heat and smoke rises, not to mention that there would be quite a few windows broken by the backdraft making ventilation easier and almost complete? Even if the windows weren't broken by the force of the backdraft, then a FF with a ladder and a Pike Pole/Axe/Halligan can do the job.
What further ventilation techniques would 'you' undertake while the roof has been opened up? I said it would be difficult, not impossible to further ventilation. Oh, and Im trying to work out who is going to get up the ladder with the ceiling hook, 1 appliance, with 3 BA crew on board, apparently you have crews on interior attack, safety crews standing around doing very little, an ECO, an OIC, someone running your pump, somehow protecting exposures and containing the fire? Did a troop truck with crew roll up during the job?
We are talking about what we would do on arrival, my first plan a few posts ago was to upgrade the response, weigh up the situation, realising we are under crewed for the job, undertaking a defensive and exposure protecting plan, while trying to minimise damage to the structure.. Maybe 30 mins into the job when I have 30 f/f's on scene, a cascade of water and a few more members trained in BA I might change my tactics...
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Not to mention your first arriving appliance has 3 BA, so you cant send in anyone anyway ! BA Safety crew comes to mind. (Not to mention the limited water the crew would have to the hose while in there) - Meaning you have no one on exposure protection, no one finding a water source, who's running the pump and the job?
Why not? You have a team of up to three, with atleast two more on the way. By the time youve donned BA, got a line stretched into the building the second appliance should be pretty much around the corner. Assuming 6 crew, then OIC/Pump/2xBA + 1xBA(external?)/Water lackey?
Wouldn't the fire flash? I thought reaching 'flashpoint' is what occured when oxygen mixed with pyrolosis gasses and an ignition source causing the ideal mixture?
Bittenyakka tells us it Backdrafted (correctly or incorrectly) but if you have a heater that ignites something in an enclosed room, wouldn't it, at a point consume all available oxygen in the room and begin to cease combustion and smoulder, awaiting a fresh source of oxygen? Hence the rapid reignition when the rooms door is opened by the unlucky (and maybe mid-intercourse) occupants?
What further ventilation techniques would 'you' undertake while the roof has been opened up? I said it would be difficult, not impossible to further ventilation. Oh, and Im trying to work out who is going to get up the ladder with the ceiling hook, 1 appliance, with 3 BA crew on board, apparently you have crews on interior attack, safety crews standing around doing very little, an ECO, an OIC, someone running your pump, somehow protecting exposures and containing the fire? Did a troop truck with crew roll up during the job?
Sorry, just used to people giving and initial response, then coninuing to the full extent. Just confused by your addition of Overhaul/Salvage, I didn't realise you were talking about initial ventilation. :wink:
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Was meaning just considering what methods of overhaul and salvage could be conducted during/ at the end of the job knowing what we already know.
Glad it's all cleared up.
I still stand by my comment of not sending a crew in. A fire that involved by the time a crew has arrived, yet alone by the time a crew is getting to work / has backup crews creates too many unsafe and unknown variables. The " What if " the roof was going to come in, is enough risk to hold crews to an exterior attack. - If it was confined to a couple of rooms and not a roof + 1 whole floor, it may be considered.
But that is why this is a hypothetical and this is a forum, we can all share open views and hope to learn.. :)
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to really if ythis happened we would all arrive and go oh (something that I wont say on the form :-P) and undertake defensive firefighting.
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to really if ythis happened we would all arrive and go oh (something that I wont say on the form :-P) and undertake defensive firefighting.
You might. There is something to be said for sensible, yet agressive internal firefighting.
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yes it is very effective especially when CFB training can be used to its full potential. But as safty is the priority and the entire top floor is alight I would be very cautious about sending crews into it.
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Can someone fix that alarm how many times does it go off....
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Mt Lofty House? not very often. (what do you mean?)
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Its probably one of the busiest of the fixed alarms monitored by Stirling, but it wouldn't go off more than 4 or 5 times a year...
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You can have our nursing home then, 6 or 7times since july, ever since they put in the new digital board and sprinklers there's a much higher rate of falsies now.
Make that 20 since 1st January, 2 justified's and about 6 for burnt food etc, the rest are all faults, the bonus i suppose is that they are all in the daylight hours and not at an un holy hour of the night......YET :lol:
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Its ok, you can keep it... ;) With every daytime alarm, the chances of a nigh time one higher and higher :P