SA Firefighter
Technical Discussion => ALL Rescue => Topic started by: Chance on October 05, 2007, 04:27:12 PM
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Just a Quick question, what is the Standard SOP for the minimun age requirment for attending an rcr job.
have come across differnt veiws from differnt brigades.
My brigade will not let some one on the truck if they are under 18.
A friend is in a brigade that dosnt have this and also have a RCR trained member who is 17.
Also What are the rules for cutting glass. is a haulegine tool really an option?
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Just a Quick question, what is the Standard SOP for the minimun age requirment for attending an rcr job.
Also What are the rules for cutting glass. is a haulegine tool really an option?
I've never heard of having an age restriction.
This may be a brigade choice, in an endeavour to keep younger members from seeing potentially ugly things at an MVA?
I don't know many brigades with the luxury of making this exclusion either, particularly as at most MVA scenes there is plenty to do without being directly involved in the carnage.
I'm sure you could use a hooligan tool (I presume that's what you mean?) to break glass, and it would do so very effectively. It could also be very messy!
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I don't see any reason for excluding people off trucks, based on ages. There are some 16yr olds that are closer to 20, and others that are closer to 12. Its better to have people at incidents, and then pass them off to do traffic control, or other such things. To be an effective member at future RCR's, you do need to be exposed to the trauma of RCR.
Also... HALLIGAN... Not Hooligan, or haulegine or any other name.
Are you cutting glass or breaking glass? For cutting glass, I'd use either a Glass master, Recip Saw, axe or sledge axe before even entertaining the possibility of the Halligan - Would you try to use the Metal Cutting Claw?
If you are breaking glass, I'd try to use, a glass hammer, marlin spike & lump hammer or multigrips before using the Halligan. You *could* use it, but I'd suggest it would be far more messy than any of the above options.
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I wouldnt say no to a under 18 getting onto a truck if it means that single person makes the appliances able to go mobile ASAP, and im sure as a crew, watching out for eachother is something everyone does.
To be an effective member at future RCR's, you do need to be exposed to the trauma of RCR.
i agree to that, as it is certainly hard the first few times....its all about learning to get the job done and minimizing stress to yourself.
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SESSA - 18 there is no option. As for cutting laminated glass the hooligan tool from Fire and Rescue is excellent. Good if you want to remove the roof instead of a fold forward. By the way thats what it is called in the catalogues - a halligan tool is by a different manufacturer and has a different claw.
Yep seen young people (under 18)from CFS @ RCR's even a double incineration at KOM. Not sure how many are still active, but as a father of a seventeen year old daughter who will become an adult member in a couple of weeks, I would not have allowed her to attend an incident like that even if the service permitted it.
Cheers
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SESSA - 18 there is no option. As for cutting laminated glass the hooligan tool from Fire and Rescue is excellent. Good if you want to remove the roof instead of a fold forward. By the way thats what it is called in the catalogues - a halligan tool is by a different manufacturer and has a different claw.
Yep seen young people (under 18)from CFS @ RCR's even a double incineration at KOM. Not sure how many are still active, but as a father of a seventeen year old daughter who will become an adult member in a couple of weeks, I would not have allowed her to attend an incident like that even if the service permitted it.
Cheers
What part of the Halligan do you use to cut the class? The Adz?
My apologies, got confused between cheap knock offs. The Hooligan is the cheap 3 pin knock off version of the drop forged Halligan... nothing to do with the ends.
Halligan type tools include both Pro-Bars and Hooligans, its all about the copyrights... :(
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Don't know about cheap - as someone who is responsible for the unit budget, I wouldn't say $700 + is cheap. We use the claw, it it taught on our course and is praticed regularly. It creates less glass dust than a recipro & with a good operator faster. cheers
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The claw? Fair enough, our Halligans don't have the claw on the end, so we are left with the adz or the axe... Have to try that out next time I'm around a Claw version.
Cheap, in terms of material and manufacture. You can break 3-pin Hooligans, whereas the single piece Halligan really only bends.
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Its a Paratech, they claim that it won't but thanks for that info (we got a couple so might see if we can :wink:)
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Just try to force a few doors of varying construction and locking methods... :evil:
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Isnt this supposed to be about rcr ages?? BTW if members are old enough to ride the appliances then they should be old and mature enough to attend a ny incidents. There is only one way to get experience.
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Sorry mate got carried away (off topic) & we will :wink:.
Our policy is if you are under 18 you don't go on callouts & as I said before everytime I see the young people from CFS at a bad RCR job I see the look on there faces and wonder if they will stick with your service.
I must admit we did have a cadet at a triple fatal (SUV under a B double), she was there only because we had taken her to a tree down job to get experience (against policy), when we got the call. However she was 300 mtrs away doing traffic, was not allowed near the scene and was not around when the bodies were recovered.
Until the policy changes (unlikely) then we won't have under 18's at RCR; they are not allowed to attend the RCR course anyway so why take them? cheers
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If you are going to get people young or old to do traffic for nasty RCR or any slightly prolonged incident it is also a good idea especially if they are new, to get another person to do it withe them and to also give them reasonably frequent sitreps.
I personally find it incredibly annoying being on traffic and not haveing the slightest idea about what is actauly happening and vague ideas about how long you will be standing there. It is also a good idea if possible to swap peoples roles around.
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Well for CFS people can ride once they are 16 and have completed BFF1. So you will likely get 16 YO at MVAs. Of course it is importand to talk to them during ( if possible) and after the job to make sure the less experienced people are ok. Also to keep them in the loop of what is happenning particularly at the nasty ones.
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The claw? Fair enough, our Halligans don't have the claw on the end, so we are left with the adz or the axe... Have to try that out next time I'm around a Claw version.
Cheap, in terms of material and manufacture. You can break 3-pin Hooligans, whereas the single piece Halligan really only bends.
Sorry to drag off topic again, but the claw works greta on laminated glass makes a hell of a mess but that can be cut down by putting shaving cream along the windscreen. Not the most common thing in an RCR kit but it comes in handy. :-)
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Have a chat to the safecom SPAM team about ages - they will give you a very different view. Age is very important. A young person all though mature and competent is unlikely to have developed the coping mechanisms to deal with significant trauma or death.
I have been part of SPAM briefings where it was strongly suggested people under 20 should be used with caution in the interests of their health and longevity in the services. Now that wont be practical in a lot of cases but it is certainly a different perspective and one that has been long-standing in CFS spam circles (as I understand it).
The concept that people should be exposed to RCR trauma to prepare them is archaic and very odd. If people can avoid the exposure it is far better. Exposure to trauma and death can have a cumulative effect on people. So if we pre-emptively expose young people we aren't helping them prepare we are potentially reducing there long term capacity for this type of work.
IMO
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The concept that people should be exposed to RCR trauma to prepare them is archaic and very odd. If people can avoid the exposure it is far better. Exposure to trauma and death can have a cumulative effect on people. So if we pre-emptively expose young people we aren't helping them prepare we are potentially reducing there long term capacity for this type of work.
IMO
Its whatever works for the individual really. Personally I love the fact that Spam exists, but I hate when debriefs are made compulsory. I'm not suggesting that you pull your 16year old member aside and she them dead bodies, but from personal experience I've found that the gradual expose to trauma (eg: From traffic control, to fire cover, to extrication) has really helped me cope with the worst jobs.
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i haven't experienced this but have been told that fire cover is the worst position because you are just standing their watching the scene. where as if you are cutting etc your concentration is on your task etc. do others find this?
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but from personal experience I've found that the gradual expose to trauma (eg: From traffic control, to fire cover, to extrication) has really helped me cope with the worst jobs.
thats exactly the way my brigade works :) gradual exposure works.
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i haven't experienced this but have been told that fire cover is the worst position because you are just standing their watching the scene. where as if you are cutting etc your concentration is on your task etc. do others find this?
For a non-RCR trained person its better because you don't *have* to be watching anything, just positioned to protect the rescue crew if the car goes up. Plus you've got your 38 in your hand and have a task to do.
This is much better than being a spare pair of hands for rescue board positioning or in car spinal stabilization.
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Well for CFS people can ride once they are 16 and have completed BFF1. So you will likely get 16 YO at MVAs. Of course it is importand to talk to them during ( if possible) and after the job to make sure the less experienced people are ok. Also to keep them in the loop of what is happenning particularly at the nasty ones.
I could be wrong but if you want to be a firefighter you now need to be 18 unless you have been through cadets in which case you can be a firefighter at 16....can anyone confirm or deny this?
As far as SPAM is concerned.....They really shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush...i know plenty of under 18's that have been to fatality's and are fine and never have had any emotional problems with this.
Maybe people from the country are a bit tougher then the city/urban fringe folk? :lol:
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Well for CFS people can ride once they are 16 and have completed BFF1. So you will likely get 16 YO at MVAs. Of course it is importand to talk to them during ( if possible) and after the job to make sure the less experienced people are ok. Also to keep them in the loop of what is happenning particularly at the nasty ones.
I could be wrong but if you want to be a firefighter you now need to be 18 unless you have been through cadets in which case you can be a firefighter at 16....can anyone confirm or deny this?
As far as SPAM is concerned.....They really shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush...i know plenty of under 18's that have been to fatality's and are fine and never have had any emotional problems with this.
Maybe people from the country are a bit tougher then the city/urban fringe folk? :lol:
Its still 16 as far as I know, but if you read the SAFECOM Act... well its reads a little differently.
As far as you knowing *plenty* of under 18's that have been to fatalities and have never ever had issues and are just fine and dandy, I'm very surprised.
Each to their own.
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Same Same as anyone who knows someone or has had Post Traumatic Stress disorder its not as clear cut as that. But as was said each to their own.
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Same Same as anyone who knows someone or has had Post Traumatic Stress disorder its not as clear cut as that. But as was said each to their own.
No Chook, you are QUITE wrong, as Crank has told us, he knows of MANY people under 18, who react to the sight a horrid road trauma as they would to their toast popping in the toaster of a morning.
Post Truamatic Stress Disorder only happens to City people because Country folk are tough as nails.
Now, go get a can of harden-up you urban-fringe dwellers!
:|
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Oh well I might have to move to the big smoke then :wink:
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Something that has been spoken about many times before.
In the end it takes a bit of thought and discussion. After 18 (as this can apply to anyone really), then that discussion should be between the officer and member. If under 18 then include the parents as well.
There is no hard and fast rule, but in the end, the aim is to expose as few people as possible to any type of incident. Consultation and education is the only means of decided when is the best time to start, and if people are up to the task, no matter what the age...
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its ver ystrange really the age stuff in CFS...
you can become a firefighter at 16 (cadets or not), however i have always felt it should be 18... not necessarily becasue of maturity, as i know 16 year olds that are much more mature than there years... but because of the decisions made by them that can have lots of complications, legal age for guns, drinking, smoking, voting, credit cards (i believe), etc etc is all 18 when we are considered 'adult' so why 16 for CFS?
another thing about age limits that irks me a bit is, for BA you must be 18. Seems odd that you can join the service at 16 and go to housefires, car fire, rubbish fires etc, but are not eligible for respiratory protection until you turn 18..
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12 to 16 cadets
16 above - Level 1
18 above - more training?
What was great to see when i did BFF1 is a few cadets doing the training before being able to get on the truck at age 16. I believe a lot is done to prepare these young members (well im not to much older either lol) for responding to jobs.
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12 to 16 cadets
16 above - Level 1
18 above - more training?
i believe you can do everthing except BA before turning 18. however not having BA accred excludes you from HAZMAT, CFB etc
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you can go to house fires without BA if you are over 18.
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12 to 16 cadets
16 above - Level 1
18 above - more training?
i believe you can do everthing except BA before turning 18. however not having BA accred excludes you from HAZMAT, CFB etc
I thought that if you do not have BA you can still respond to hazmat there would be jobs for them to do to help.
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you can go to whatever incidents your brigade has as soon as your a member with level 1...
i am referring to levels of training being dependant on age
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I believe that there was a policy a few (possibly up to five) years ago that was put out to brigades that it is recommended that people under 18 do not attend vehicle accidents, but it is up to the brigade captain and can be implemented on a case-by-case basis.
Several brigades decided that it would be best to implement a blanket rule that no under 18s go to vehicle accidents...
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Look its a very hard call,I know of some adults who find it hard at MVA'S but yet again i know some young members 16 to 18 who have seen death in rural areas for years being sheep or cattle or human... Sure it is the brigade captain or officer who says yes or know.I dont have a problem taking a 17 yo to aMVA and putting them on traffic control but sorry would not have them working in the rescue zone.....HQ can make up as many rules as they like but they need to remember that in a rural or country area we dont have RCR back up close at hand we dont have the number's so we can pick this member over that member to get on the appliance be it rescue or fire cover....
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something quite simple. Fire Cover outside hot zone, rescue in the hot zone. Only when fire/smoke present should fire cover enter the hotzone. (charged line and dry chem ready).
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back to the original question and an earlier topic.
My view is 18 should be the minimum age. You can drive a car, buy smokes, gamble, buy grog at that age. That's the age you are an adult in the eyes of the law. Let that be the age.
The other thing I read, was about cutting glass.
I've used these glass cutters.
http://www.yourtasmania.com/rescuesnips/
They create bit dust, but they are really good.
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I think the answer is simple dont you have to be 18 to do the RCR course??? if so the 18 would be a good starting point......
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back to the original question and an earlier topic.
My view is 18 should be the minimum age. You can drive a car, buy smokes, gamble, buy grog at that age. That's the age you are an adult in the eyes of the law. Let that be the age.
The other thing I read, was about cutting glass.
I've used these glass cutters.
http://www.yourtasmania.com/rescuesnips/
They create bit dust, but they are really good.
Thanks for that!!!
As for the dust, shaving cream put where your going to cut stops the glass dust.
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I think the answer is simple dont you have to be 18 to do the RCR course??? if so the 18 would be a good starting point......
18 to do RCR, 18 to do BA (and thererfore HAZMAT), should be 18 to become a firefighter and responder full stop.
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Also i think the issue is more a legal one than mental maturity. If someone is going to be affected by a severe exposure at 16, does that mean that at 18 they are all of a sudden ok with it? No.
At 18, a person is no longer under the legal guardianship of someone else and can make thier own descisions and is responsible for their actions.
For example, if a 16 year old is exposed to a bad situation and has lasting effects, they could probably hold a legal argument that under a duty of care, their guardian (CFS Officer i assume) should not have exposed them to it and is therefore liable. If they are 18, then it is their responsibility legally, not someone elses. Same with injuries, death etc.
That is also part of the reason why there is an age restriction on the courses that require physical "higher risk" activities with potential for injury.
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Did the course at 16..... No regrets, no issues... down to the individual really...
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Age of RCR FF's/SES Personal? Interesting. I am not a member of SES or CFS, and in my employment have been to plenty of MVA's but so far no fatal ones (like to keep it that way, as been close).
There are some good points from both views (under 18 or over 18), but I would have to say 18yo as a minimum.
For one, a lot of MVA's that we (emergency services) attend involve young people, especially in hills and country regions, and the last thing anyone want's do be doing (besides a major mva or trauma in first place) is attending an mva where they know the patient(s), and for a 16yo to be attending to a friend or classmate of same age would be horrific, as dealing with their death (without being at the incident) will be hard enough.
I also have to agree with Gilly on the legal view point, although I am not sure how something like that would stand up in court, but it is worth noting.
But I suppose, given the role as a FFer etc, what's not to say a 16yo is not going to attend a house fire or car fire or bush/scrub fire where there is not serious injuries or even deaths? Maybe 18yo should be the minimum, maybe not.
I know I have kinda contraindicated myself, but a good debate point maybe.
However, I think it is fantastic that cadets and 16yo's are involved in community organisations such as CFS/SES and not to forget SLSC's as pulling someone from the water and dealing with incidents on the beach can be full on as well. It is a pity more youngsters (gee I feel old using that word now) are not involved in community organisations. It allows great character building and you gain valuable life skills, and keeps you out of trouble.
Anyway, only my views, I guess I can not make a clear decision on which side of fence I sit.
Catch Ya