SA Firefighter
General Discussion => SASES => Topic started by: CFS_Firey on January 20, 2010, 12:28:44 PM
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Are all units trained and equipped for vertical/high angle rescue? I've been told some of the hills units aren't equipped for rope rescue, but I find that hard to believe when Rescue from heights is an SES job.
It's a pity there isn't a fire-brigade.asn.au equivalent for SES...
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Not all units are trained or equiped for vertical rescue.
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Do you know if Sturt, Adelaide Hills, Lobethal or Strath are? (or any idea what the closest vertical rescue unit to Mt Lofty would be?)
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Sturt = Yes
Strath = No
Loby & Adelaide Hills - Not sure, but I think: No
Other than Sturt, the next closest would be Metro South (Mitcham) or Eastern Suburbs
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Noarlunga SES is also trained for Vertical Rescue :wink:
Tea Tree Gully SES=Vertical Rescue
Mt Gambier SES=Vertical Rescue
The folowing are not Vertical Rescue units
Adelaide Hills
Booleroo Centre
Burra
Bute
Campbelltown
Clare
Cummins-Gaining accreditation
Eastern Suburbs
Edinburgh
Enfield
Hallet
Hawker
Kapunda
Laura
Marla
Maitland
Minatbie
Metro South
Onkaparinga
Prospect
Port Broughton
Quorn
Roxby Downs
Saddleworth
Spalding
Snowtown
Sturt
Warooka
Western Adelaide
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I couldn't tell you exactly which units are or are not vertical rescue accredited, and im not sure where SAFirey has gotten his list so would not take that as gospel. Unless SAFirey can let us know?
However i would suggest that Sturt SES would be the closest resource to Stirling [since i assume this is regarding your equipment being taken away], but that STAR group are actually the authority who handle most of this role.
Perhaps it would be better to concentrate on Fire, RCR and HAZMAT training and response than trying to add another feather to the cap? I know the equipment was taken away, but as far as i know it was always brigade funded and trained and never a gazetted responsibility?
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Yep not sure where the list came from - it doesn't mention any of the Riverland towns which all have some vertical rescue equipment - except Barmera (ropes, decenders, harnesses) & Loxton has a full compilment of eqipment including Larkin frames.
Secondly Basic recue from heights & depths is covered in General rescue & as part of the standard kit all units would have the basic gear for that task &
Finally there are vertical rescue operators scattered all over the place (I know this as I was one of them)& equipment strategically located around the state. So I think the original post has been answered.
cheers
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Am interested about where that list came from as well.
Vertical Resue within SES is its own hot topic at the moment anyway. Apparently there was a serious accident (all details seem to have been banned from public/volunteer knowledge), which in turn prompted a major review of operations.
A lot of the units have vertical gear, but accreditaion of members is an ongoing issue.
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Am interested about where that list came from as well.
Vertical Resue within SES is its own hot topic at the moment anyway. Apparently there was a serious accident (all details seem to have been banned from public/volunteer knowledge), which in turn prompted a major review of operations.
A lot of the units have vertical gear, but accreditaion of members is an ongoing issue.
Because a Lawsuit is pending.... Yeh lets just say that SES f**ked a rescue up, then tried to cover it up, didn’t call for backup until it was way too late. Now a young girl will never walk again. Leave it to the professionals STAR group/ SOT rescue paramedic’s.
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yeah...its a definitely a responsibility that SAPOL/SAAS should have, it would make sense to have the this as Rescue 51 and 52 are the last resort action for vertical rescue. SAAS SOT would particularly be able to deal with physical trauma in a much more up to date fashion to.
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Most SES units have Vertical Access Capability, which it to get to a casualty and provide first aid, stabilise and ready for extraction, most units carry the extra gear for the extraction but may not have the accreditation, at the moment vertical rescue is a hot topic as state is making some changes so it will be interesting to see where it goes
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However i would suggest that Sturt SES would be the closest resource to Stirling [since i assume this is regarding your equipment being taken away], but that STAR group are actually the authority who handle most of this role.
Perhaps it would be better to concentrate on Fire, RCR and HAZMAT training and response than trying to add another feather to the cap? I know the equipment was taken away, but as far as i know it was always brigade funded and trained and never a gazetted responsibility?
Indeed. We've been told it's an SES responsibility, and to respond SES, although that may be because whoever wrote the memo forgot about the STAR group.
I should clarify that Stirling was never vertical rescue trained, or equipped. As I understand it, there was a spate of car over embankment RCRs which resulted in CFS members working unsafely on steep slopes. There was a need identified for equipment to make this safer, so the lowering and hauling system was purchased. As such it was to compliment the Road Crash stowage and make a task, which was going to be done anyway, safer.
I didn't want to make this a discussion about CFS though, so if you want to discuss this situation, PM me or start a new thread. :)
yeah...its a definitely a responsibility that SAPOL/SAAS should have, it would make sense to have the this as Rescue 51 and 52 are the last resort action for vertical rescue. SAAS SOT would particularly be able to deal with physical trauma in a much more up to date fashion to.
I don't think SOTs carry any more than they need to get access to a casualty - they don't have hauling systems for extrication.
Most SES units have Vertical Access Capability, which it to get to a casualty and provide first aid, stabilise and ready for extraction, most units carry the extra gear for the extraction but may not have the accreditation, at the moment vertical rescue is a hot topic as state is making some changes so it will be interesting to see where it goes
Does SES consider high angle rescue to be the same as vertical rescue (equipment and training wise)?
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Because a Lawsuit is pending.... Yeh lets just say that SES f**ked a rescue up, then tried to cover it up, didn’t call for backup until it was way too late. Now a young girl will never walk again. Leave it to the professionals STAR group/ SOT rescue paramedic’s.
I had heard a slightly different version on the rumour mill.....
Does SES consider high angle rescue to be the same as vertical rescue (equipment and training wise)?
Yes
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jason mate
i really wish people would get their facts straight before posting, this is nothing like what you stay it was. if you want to know actually ring up and ask state rather than just passing the rumours on
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jason mate
i really wish people would get their facts straight before posting, this is nothing like what you stay it was. if you want to know actually ring up and ask state rather than just passing the rumours on
Thats what I saw at the job mate... whats your interpretation then...
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mate sent you a pm, i don't really think a public forum is the place to go into it, as i'm sure you wouldn't like it plastered all over the place if this had happened to your unit
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Jason get your facts straight :x
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Men if you did your homework, the details are on the SES website under each units name what they do :-P
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Link to same http://www.ses.sa.gov.au/site/join_the_ses/ses_unit_locations.jsp
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Which is not always accurate - just like the fire ones some times :wink:
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There are a lot of members in those units who are trained for Vertical, in varying stages.
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Am interested about where that list came from as well.
Vertical Resue within SES is its own hot topic at the moment anyway. Apparently there was a serious accident (all details seem to have been banned from public/volunteer knowledge), which in turn prompted a major review of operations.
A lot of the units have vertical gear, but accreditaion of members is an ongoing issue.
Because a Lawsuit is pending.... Yeh lets just say that SES f**ked a rescue up, then tried to cover it up, didn’t call for backup until it was way too late. Now a young girl will never walk again. Leave it to the professionals STAR group/ SOT rescue paramedic’s.
Hmmmm i heard that gongbeater brigade filtered a fire up.... Lets leave all fires to the MFS/ARFF...
I have no idea what job your talking about or any details of it, but what a ridiculous statement from someone who obviously has built a grudge due to it. We should be supporting our fellow vollunteers not bashing them in open forum.
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....Apparently there was a serious accident (all details seem to have been banned from public/volunteer knowledge), which in turn prompted a major review of operations....
The accident was detailed in the 'SASES Chief Officer's E NEWS, Issue 5 of 18 November 2009'. So hardly "banned from volunteer knowledge".
Safework SA and SAFECOM OHS investigated and the ban was lifted on 2nd November. The major review is a standard response to any accident.
If you want more details, contact the person specified in the E News.
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SASES Special Operations Group (now in a building at the airport) would also provide the specialised expertise if required.
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The accident was detailed in the 'SASES Chief Officer's E NEWS, Issue 5 of 18 November 2009'. So hardly "banned from volunteer knowledge".
Safework SA and SAFECOM OHS investigated and the ban was lifted on 2nd November. The major review is a standard response to any accident.
If you want more details, contact the person specified in the E News.
Sorry, i have to laugh....
Was that the issue that started with "there is no secret sqirrel business going on in the SES" followed a bit later on in the same letter by.... "There was a serious accident involving vertical operations but we are unable to release details of the incident" :roll: Am I the only one who finds the initial statement a little ironic.
Im aware of what happened, although not told officially. Its not something that should ever have been hushed IMHO
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Unfortunately that's what happens when an incident happens. The details cannot be released until all of the authorities involved have completed their investigations & decided whether the matter will result in an enquiry or court appearance. To release full details of any incident prior to this would be prejudicial to the case. The comment from bajdas is that Safework SA has investigated - from personnal experience it take several months to find out if they are prosecuting or not! And thats on a major incident - it is the way their system works
Of interest here there has been a major review of all Rescue from heights & depths(vertical rescue & disaster rescue techniques) going on for some time with some bans in place for some types of training (until the changes are implemented), some major recommendations to some of the techniques used (including banning some), major changes to the equipment required etc. I did forward the information to someone in SESSA as a matter of interest, so I guess some of that may reviewed by them as part of this!
cheers
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Yet again rumours continue to spread.
STAR and SOTS (SAAS) train with SES regularly and use SES specialist trainers to accredit their people. In industry, we too use SES to accredit people, to ensure that a national standard can be achieved that meets the needs of our OHS&W requirments for staff.
Although, if we need rumours, we also have private companies teach fire fighting in industry, maybe we should take over fire fighting if others can't get it right.
Time to grow up .... ever service unfortunately has accidents and injuries, unfortunately, we often go where angels would fear to tread, that is why others phone 000 and we respond!
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Does SES use single rope or twin like MFS and the Ambulance service?
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Single rope
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For the record, the Mets were taught rope rescue intially by the STAR Group and Police Rescue.
The SASES is great, but they are still seen as being the traffic control for the Mets and the people to do the legwork of SAPOL for searches.
They do great work, but duplication upon duplication. Give SASES vertical and rope rescue, mets the other stuff in their AOR and the CFS the same.
Yes accidents happen... its kinda hard not to have accidents when you're doing rescues when the rescuerers themselves are in danger.
Btw Single rope all the Way :mrgreen:
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Btw Single rope all the Way :mrgreen:
Good Man! :)
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Am interested about where that list came from as well.
Vertical Resue within SES is its own hot topic at the moment anyway. Apparently there was a serious accident (all details seem to have been banned from public/volunteer knowledge), which in turn prompted a major review of operations.
A lot of the units have vertical gear, but accreditaion of members is an ongoing issue.
Because a Lawsuit is pending.... Yeh lets just say that SES f**ked a rescue up, then tried to cover it up, didn’t call for backup until it was way too late. Now a young girl will never walk again. Leave it to the professionals STAR group/ SOT rescue paramedic’s.
Same training champ. Incompetence and mistakes can happen anywhere, don't be too quick to shove anyone on a pedestal.. There's unfortunately "One man bands" in every organisation. Whilst no longer a part of the SES, I found the rescue courses for Vertical were informative and comprehensive, and they were quite happy to mark anyone as not yet competent if there was any question about their capability.
Look at how many fires need significantly more resources because bogan officers think it's more important to blow their horn and beat their gong than remember to ask for backup and extra resources early.
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Yep would have to agree with your comments on the level of training mate - I know I was the first time I did the phase one course :wink: And that was down to a bit of a problem with the "mill" & a bit of attitude! However lessons were learn't & the second attempt was a very enjoyable course (put the hard work in & no worries)plus the two paid staff (those in the know will know who they are) were really helpful. As for the other comments - I choose to smile quietly to myself & nod in agreement :-)
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For the record, the Mets were taught rope rescue intially by the STAR Group and Police Rescue.
The SASES is great, but they are still seen as being the traffic control for the Mets and the people to do the legwork of SAPOL for searches.
They do great work, but duplication upon duplication. Give SASES vertical and rope rescue, mets the other stuff in their AOR and the CFS the same.
Yes accidents happen... its kinda hard not to have accidents when you're doing rescues when the rescuerers themselves are in danger.
Btw Single rope all the Way :mrgreen:
REALLY .... in our group and most of those neighbouring, we struggle to get one truck out the door, let alone two during the day. Despite the BS that some post on here and CFS sprout, we dont want, nor could we cope with additional work loads and responses. IF we could get training in what we do now and have all of our brigade and all of our Group and all of the Region meet its SFEC, then we might look at other stuff.
In relation to rope rescue .... mfs did have sapol deliver, but then went private, through a great adelaide hills based supplier and training provider ... unfortunately this has all lapsed and there are very few with any competencies left
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Btw Single rope all the Way :mrgreen:
Ah, single rope may be easier & quicker to work with, but filled with single points of failure.
In relation to rope rescue .... mfs did have sapol deliver, but then went private, through a great adelaide hills based supplier and training provider ... unfortunately this has all lapsed and there are very few with any competencies left
That company has one of the most knowledgeable people in the world on everything ropes delivering training.
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Didn't that person work for the fire service then go away on the fire service dollar, now to deliver to the same fire service... Mets are looking to reacredit with the Queensland Fire and Rescue due to their expertise in the area.
Should have stayed witn SAPOL delivery... mainly because they are the designated rescue organisation for heights through STAR group who are atm being reaccredited by an external agency and purchasing new equipment to be able to do the job best.
And they're are going single rope on advice from the external contractor, and also changing the way they do everything so they don't have a rediculous amount of gadgets that they were sold over the years which were simple never used due to complexity and extreme pricing. They're also going to be doing alot more intergration with Special Operations Ambulance so that they will have a team situation with two paramedics and two STAR.
However I did notice that there was a rope rescue situation on KI the other night... Are there any rope rescue assets based on KI or only on the mainland? (SACFS or SASES)
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It's funny how people bang on about the pro's and con's on single and twin rope rescue. I know for a fact if you are proficent at twin rope rescue it takes similar time to set up or slightly longer than single.
As for the extra expensive gadgets required that is a false statement.
The Queensland course offers both single and twin rope rescue.
As for your statements on "The Adelaide Hills Training Provider" that works for the MFS he is nationally and internationally respected and trains fire services, ambulance services,police and industrial emergency services all over the country and some overseas clients.
Maybe if some organisations used twin it would would mitigate the chance of falls because there is another contingency in place to prevent it!
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The equipment is rated for a reason, and when used correctly, a single-rope system SHOULD be sufficient. However, for those a little less trusting in the equipment, I understand the people who would prefer twin ropes.
I'm comfortable with the equipment, and using a single rope system, as between the two I simply gained more exposure to it, and don't use things that don't pass through safety checks.
People on these forums seem to bash on a lot without necessarily providing reason or justification, just "you should all think the way I do". Funnily enough, it is quite easy to get fired up and respond in kind without taking the anonymity factor with a grain of salt.
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I've got no drama's with the SES using single rope and it does come down to what your comfortable with Whitecloud as you stated. I've watched certain SES units set up and use single rope and they were proficent and very safety orientated.
I personally feel twin rope is a bit safer but once again that is only my opinion and what I'm comofrtable using.
Speaking to a couple of mates from the Queensland Fire service they use twin 13mm rope in training and on jobs. Also I've seen the Ambulance service SOT's use twin 13mm rope a couple of years ago in person so I was just curious where some people on here get their facts from.
Would be a nice idea in this state if all organisations used the same system so when responded together it would make the job easier.
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Sadly mate it is what people are used to so they only go on what they know, so they think it is the best. By the way I only know single rope so therefore can't comment on the merits of either system :wink: