SA Firefighter
General Discussion => Country Fire Service => Topic started by: Fire000 on December 16, 2010, 09:14:57 PM
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Hi all,
Just wondering if anyone has some info on what the triggers are for a CFS area to change to MFS. Does it consider population density, or is it all about the risks within the area (schools, commercial, industrial, high rise etc).
I notice the Government has today announced the long-term growth plan for Mt Barker, including a blueprint for delivering a $550 million infrastructure support package, do you think this new development will be trigger?
Obviously any plan to make the change would need to be in consultation with the vollies, but at the end of the day it's about providing the best service to the community - and there is no guarantee that a CFS station can turn out a truck (although stations like Barker and Naracoorte do a awesome job).
I wonder what model of MFS station they'd go to at Barker, paid retained,paid daytime crew, or urban response with Barker CFS as rural crew as well as providing backup to Barker MFS (similar to what happened with Seaford).
Then again, with our current Government, they'd be reluctant to spend the capital turning Barker to MFS......... so in my opinion Barker CFS is safe for now.
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Cant see it happening ,MFS need us just as much as we need them..having said that may be its time to look at having MFS day crews in CFS station where both services can work as one service rather than two...Works well interstate....
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having had the visit from the Safecom wallies a while ago to try and explain the process the words they mentioned went a bit like;
- change not just based on population or risk, but these are factored into the "type" or numbers of responses required
- the performance of the CFS Brigades in the area in terms of response times and crew mix (so if you default a lot, are late on task or short crew, thats not going to help your cause)
- the wishes of the Brigade after lengthy consultation (yeah right, we all laughed at this)
- outside influences (think about what happened with Seaford)
they specifically mentioned Mt Barker and in their words (at the time) regardless of the population changes they didnt see any justification in changing as the Brigade was outperforming just about everyone in terms of response times and crew. The hard part will come (in their words) when an aerial appliance is required and how that is managed. No rule that CFS cant have one, just a (big) change in mindset. They did end the discussion saying that despite all the planning and best intentions, dot point 4 above will always be a factor
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Well with the contempt CFS have for urban brigades and the equipment and training that ISN'T provided I hope the MFS move to some of these areas VERY soon.
A medium pumper and a pathetic 34P and minimum BA numbers and the fact they have to fight tooth and nail to keep the RCR gear they have and not fall for the pathetic kit CFS issue...what a joke, if those dedicated vols at mt barker didn't bust their hump over and above then the town would be screwed.
Where is the forward planning by the CFS for towns like Mt Barker, they have reduced Mt Barkers fire cover, the Dennis was a failure so they replace it with a rural appliance...well done
MFS are far from perfect, but they at least provide the gear that is needed.
But it's a lot easier for CFS to just give them a hard time.
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Pumperrescue: come's down to money and the lack of support that CFS gets from those above...I agree CFS may have forgotten about forward planning in some area's. Agree we need more pumpers with in CFS but will this ever happen??? Nope unless we all push for better gear and we all jump up and down or better still talk more to the media like some hill's brigades have been doing over the past year...
We as volunteers need to come up with a easy and better solution for fire/rescue/hazmat cover in our area's, putting MFS into some area's is not the answer. I really cant see how hard it would be to have paid and volunteers in one station...
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without sounding like i'm anti CFS- wouldn't/or shouldn't the needs of the community come first?
If the CFS heirachy aren't interested in helping the local brigade by equipping them appropriately (or at least advocating/pushing the gov't for the funding) - then why wouldn't the MFS, who equip their crew with the appropriate gear not be put into that community??
Obviously the C in CFS stands for COUNTRY......so I can understand why they are 'having trouble' getting their head around the concept of a decent pumper or an aerial!
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I guess the same question could be asked of SAAS what is the trigger to say a volunteer station isn't either crewing 24/7 or the basic life support skills of the volleys don't meet the growth or needs of that country community ? If there was a trigger I'm guessing at least 3 to 6 station would be converted from volley to career overnight
Easy solutions cost money something the current government claims it does not have!
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without sounding like i'm anti CFS- wouldn't/or shouldn't the needs of the community come first?
If the CFS heirachy aren't interested in helping the local brigade by equipping them appropriately (or at least advocating/pushing the gov't for the funding) - then why wouldn't the MFS, who equip their crew with the appropriate gear not be put into that community??
Obviously the C in CFS stands for COUNTRY......so I can understand why they are 'having trouble' getting their head around the concept of a decent pumper or an aerial!
The C in CFA (Victoria) also stands for COUNTRY..... Aerials, pumpers, tankers, QRV's galore.
Bill's thoughts on an integrated service sound fantastic.
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without sounding like i'm anti CFS- wouldn't/or shouldn't the needs of the community come first?
If the CFS heirachy aren't interested in helping the local brigade by equipping them appropriately (or at least advocating/pushing the gov't for the funding) - then why wouldn't the MFS, who equip their crew with the appropriate gear not be put into that community??
Obviously the C in CFS stands for COUNTRY......so I can understand why they are 'having trouble' getting their head around the concept of a decent pumper or an aerial!
BLASPHEMER!! ... BLAS..Phe...m..er :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:..though you do have a point! :evil:
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The C in CFA (Victoria) also stands for COUNTRY..... Aerials, pumpers, tankers, QRV's galore.
yes but they aren't South Australians either....they actually think and plan for this stuff!
the best thing that could happen to SAAS was that we got rid of the "yes minister" CEO that we had and found one (albeit from offshore) that has the testicular fortitude to put it to treasury that there is in fact a better way of doing it, and getting the funds to do it!
yes - there is still a long way to go, but you have to start somewhere.....here's hoping your new guy - who comes from a place where there is only one service (+ ADF) to do the job!
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The C in CFA (Victoria) also stands for COUNTRY..... Aerials, pumpers, tankers, QRV's galore.
yes but they aren't South Australians either....they actually think and plan for this stuff!
*thumbs up*
As a south Australian, i feel even tho our population is much less, the risk is the same, except less in volume... we should really be learning from our interstate counterparts.
I think the decision to approve this DPA in mt barker ALONE shows how out of sync the government is ... It does not add up to build on prime produce land.
Somebody mentioned Dawesley/petwood...that makes more sense, its only good for sheep/cows which can be dealt with elsewhere.
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The sad thing is, it's usually not until something happens (ie. a close call or a life is lost) that our Government actually does anything (or says it's going to do something) about the critical things our society needs (e.g. emergency services equipment, etc).
There's thousands of dollars for Italian towns, obscure "contractors" employed to advise in India, and talk of a football stadium in the city, yet we don't have enough money for our hospitals and emergency services. Makes me wonder some time.
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Cant see it happening ,MFS need us just as much as we need them..having said that may be its time to look at having MFS day crews in CFS station where both services can work as one service rather than two...Works well interstate....
Sorry but Bullshit...
Having worked in the CFA for almost 2 years as a full time firey I can tell you that the integrated system is scheiße.
Would be OK if we were one service but staff and volls had their own stations but never together.
Imagine for a minute the morale of the vollunteer respondingto the station knowing that
1.Hes going to miss the truck 100% guaranteed
2. hes not getting paid to be there and those on the truck are.
3.hes on a striketeam with a couple of paid guys (like we used to be in Vic) who are getting paid double time to sit on a fire and hes losing work at home.
4. Industrial disputes ...where the staff are on strike over something and the volls "cross the picket line" at the station...(at Victoria the staff and volls atone station had a fist fight in early 2000 over this issue)
5. firies at (say Mt Barker) getting paid 20 to 30% more than the dudes at region 1 (as full time firies would be on the award as negotiated by the UFU)
etc etc etc etc
and the list goes on.
The integrated model in Victoria is NOT something we should aspire to.
Better to say CFS will employ full time fireys (at award wages) at Mt Barker with no volunteers at the station at all (including decent trucks/aerials etc)
Cheers
R
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Also the CFA are moving away from this model and now staffing trucks not stations, so this model will eventually die. The previous CFA model was false economy to, 2 guys on a pumper is not a proper response. All it does is get the response times met. I have heard some horror stories from the CFA perms where they have arrived with 1 or 2 on the crew and no vols have rocked up to a going fire.
I don't care who staffs it, but something needs to happen, if the CFS want to hang onto towns like Mt Barker then man them and equip them to the SAME standards as the MFS, or get out. Don't pretend, do it or GET OUT !
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Also the CFA are moving away from this model and now staffing trucks not stations
who wants a 24 in their shed for the kids to play on?
oh look...Foley just found the cash for the new hospital and the new footy stadium....all in Adelaide....
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The day that CFS order a Bronto or Skyjet then we know they are getting serious, until then we will have to put up with the standard line it's not standard stowage when we want to put gear on our appliances to make our job easier.
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Rainer, I dont know how you can say the CFA system is filtered, the stations/brigades that I know and i have contact with all have min crew of 4 staff on station with Volunteer back up which they tell me is very good. Having said that CFA is moving with the times and that is why they are doing lots of intakes next year for more firefighters. What CFA station where you at???
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Rainer,
There has to be political will and money for anything to change in Mt Barker. the CFS are very proud Executives are very proud of the station as demonstrated by their attendance at that paint shop fire awhile back. It was only a shed and they turn up, why? The fire service in Mt Barker will never be fully paid either in our life time there is no political will or money to justify that. As for Aerials think about it guys ! Do the maths, divide Adelaide's population in MFS area by the population of Mt Barker then compare it to the number of Aerials in MFS area on duty at any one time. Mt barker has grow a lot more for an aerial to be justified by population alone but risk is a different story. For example Port Lincoln, Whyalla and Mt Gambier all have large industrial risk requiring aerials. But Port Pirie has none.
go to go back soon
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Mt Barker is a small country town compared to some of the rural cities CFA look after not to mention the urban areas of metropolitan Melbourne they cover. Don't even try and compare the CFS to the CFA, the fact that CFS only have a hand full of pumpers and a few so called "rescue" appliances without running into too much trouble shows they do not have the population or risk to justify all these full time crews, aerials, telebooms etc etc.
I mean look at the Adelaide hills residence having a sook over the first talk of any urban development in Mt Barker, the people of South Australia will keep it a small country town so don't worry about these big fire services you think you require.
Let's say if it ever does get big, you will see the BRT role into your town because CFS do not and will never have the capacity to have full time firefighters, they can't even train their volunteers so how do you expect them to train staff...
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CFS needs to support Pumpers across the urban interface zone similar to Burnsides, they should be at stations like TTG, Athelstone, Belair, Happy Valley etc this would give them appliances that do a proper EMA COQ job, there by giving both services a better mix.
Mt Barker will eventually be a paid service, in what guise that is the big question!
All it takes is money and the will to do it......both are a sticking point!
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As I said earlier, they can't train their vols and equip them let alone train staff and equip them, and those staff will be part of the UFU and they won't settle for second rate gear and lack of training.
Imagine the huge change in thinking, if they can't acknowledge the urban risk they have now what hope have we got of them ever heading down the staffed station route.
An aerial in Mt Barker ? Why, only take a bronto a from Adelaide less than 30 mins, no worse than waiting for an aerial at Christies or Gawler?
As I said CFS has an urban risk for sure, but NOTHING compared to the CFA with towns like Ballarat, Geelong etc
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I dont know how people can say MFS have better gear have you seen what gloves they wear to rural jobs???. yes agree CFS needs to pick up its game but it comes down to MONEY....If MFS want to move into CFS area's then they better get some 4wd tankers.....
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So a pair of gloves makes all the difference.......
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As I said earlier, they can't train their vols and equip them let alone train staff and equip them, and those staff will be part of the UFU and they won't settle for second rate gear and lack of training.
An aerial in Mt Barker ? Why, only take a bronto a from Adelaide less than 30 mins, no worse than waiting for an aerial at Christies or Gawler?
As I said CFS has an urban risk for sure, but NOTHING compared to the CFA with towns like Ballarat, Geelong etc
Oh no! Not the big bad UFU! What are they going to do? Put some more paperwork bans on? The Union has that much that they could be making a point about and they're not. Which leads me into...
It will "ONLY" take "LESS THAN 30 MINUTES" to get an aerial into Mt. Barker? And this is ok because ITS THE SAME WITH SAMFS AREA? Are you serious? 2x ALP's for the entire state is a joke. It still fails me as to why there are not a minimum of 3, North/Central/South... Call the union!
I dont know how people can say MFS have better gear have you seen what gloves they wear to rural jobs???. yes agree CFS needs to pick up its game but it comes down to MONEY....If MFS want to move into CFS area's then they better get some 4wd tankers.....
What gloves do they wear? Are they worse than the single piece leather gloves CFS issue? Are they just Nitriles? Do you have a brain?
Ok: CFS Structure gloves are terrible, most trucks are terrible, Wildfire PPE is terrible, Structural PPE is good!, Rescue PPE doesn't exist, Rescue equipment is terrible, Comms are terrible, Boots are terrible, we don't get socks although they are listed as PPE (terrible), the Field uniform is terrible, cheap branches are terrible...
Do I go on?
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Numbers you forgot Muriel!
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Numbers you forgot Muriel!
She better be the new chief! Only she has an appropriate level of "Terrible"
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So if we get the MFS some good gloves and the CFS an aerial appliance we are all ok.
What we need is a interdependent review on how the fire services are run, funded, equipment and training. But this will never happen because both sides MFS & CFS will tell you that everything is fine. What happens at the top stays at the top. A nice little club with no waves are being made. Look out for the Tsunami.......
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TFT you must live in a parrallel universe, I sees it waaaaay different!
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Just look at a few of the following..
Level of staffing of the CFS (compare this with other states)
The amount of training courses that we don't have
How hard it is to get members on training course(you have a maximum)
The quality of fire appliances(CFS is the poor cousin, don't we do the same job)
SACAD (how long has this taken)
Standards of Fire Cover (Look how some areas have changed)
Duplication of resources
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Oh no! Not the big bad UFU! What are they going to do? Put some more paperwork bans on? The Union has that much that they could be making a point about and they're not. Which leads me into...
It will "ONLY" take "LESS THAN 30 MINUTES" to get an aerial into Mt. Barker? And this is ok because ITS THE SAME WITH SAMFS AREA? Are you serious? 2x ALP's for the entire state is a joke. It still fails me as to why there are not a minimum of 3, North/Central/South... Call the union!
You sound a bit against the UFU numbers, have you had a bad experience with them or have you quit their membership. Last time i checked i got a nice little pay rise and kept my conditions of employment, oh and the gear we use is not terrible because of them
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Well said TFT....
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Oh no! Not the big bad UFU! What are they going to do? Put some more paperwork bans on? The Union has that much that they could be making a point about and they're not. Which leads me into...
It will "ONLY" take "LESS THAN 30 MINUTES" to get an aerial into Mt. Barker? And this is ok because ITS THE SAME WITH SAMFS AREA? Are you serious? 2x ALP's for the entire state is a joke. It still fails me as to why there are not a minimum of 3, North/Central/South... Call the union!
You sound a bit against the UFU numbers, have you had a bad experience with them or have you quit their membership. Last time i checked i got a nice little pay rise and kept my conditions of employment, oh and the gear we use is not terrible because of them
I fully support Firefighters Unions, I just do not believe that the UFU are really performing or pushing the issues that they should. As I said, 2 ALP's for the entire state is a joke. Are their priorities in the right place? Mass Rally action for LSL entitlements, but not for Fireground OH&S issues? (Radio allocation vs. SOP, etc)
If you're all about maintaining the status quo and getting your 3.5% payrise in Jan, then sure, the UFU are fantastic.
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What we need is a interdependent review on how the fire services are run, funded, equipment and training.
Wasn't it called the Dawkins review...?
Pip
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What we need is a interdependent review on how the fire services are run, funded, equipment and training.
Wasn't it called the Dawkins review...?
Pip
I'm pretty sure Pip the Dawkins Review was the Fate au Complei review rebadged, the one you have when u have an answer already but u want to justify with a process